Utkarsh Narang (00:02.786) What does freedom cost and who is willing to pay for it? Today I have someone who understands what's happening in Iran really well and who's willing to share that conversation with us today. In a country where speaking up can mean prison or worse, even more than that, women like Zolal and others have led a fight for 60 years for dignity. And today in this conversation, it's going to be a deep one. So if you're... Ready, which I think you are, our listeners, are ready for a deep conversation, then stay on. If not, feel free to jump onto another podcast. But today we'll explore freedom, fear, courage, and the psychology of hope in Iran. Zolal, I'm looking forward to this conversation with you today. Zolal Habibi (00:47.601) First of all, let me greet those who are tuning into this podcast today. It's a pleasure to be with you and I look forward to this conversation too and hope to learn more from it. Utkarsh Narang (01:00.494) Thank you. In the first question, Zolal, that we want to really go into the deep psychology of the guest who we have on the podcast is that if that eight-year-old Zolal, however, whatever those conditions were, wherever you're growing up, if that eight-year-old Zolal comes and meets you right now, what kind of conversation do you think will emerge between the two of you? Zolal Habibi (01:23.537) Well, I think one of the first things that I would tell that eight year old Zolal is I know right now it seems like a very difficult time. It had just been six months since you've lost your father and the path ahead is not clear, but rest assured that you're going to get through this and that you will rise above it and persevere and you will be able to follow in his footsteps and to also keep his legacy alive through your own actions and through your own activity. trust your heart, keep going forward. and never give in, never give up. Add to your bravery and your resistance because the choice that you've made that not to cry because it'll make the Mullahs happy, that is a form of resistance in itself. So continue and you will persevere. Utkarsh Narang (02:44.226) That's that's thoughtful and deep. were just talking about this just before we started recording the podcast, right? Where these paths less traveled are really difficult to travel. Like there's something about these paths that attract attract travelers like you and me in our small, big, massive microwaves. What is it about these paths that attracts us Zolal? Zolal Habibi (03:14.407) For me personally, I think it was always the issue of principle and values, but also like what is the purpose of our existence in this world? When you look at galaxy, we're like a small dot in this galaxy and there are millions and billions of people on this earth at any given time. What is our purpose? Is it just to live our life as normal or do we have a purpose and how can we push forward humanity? How can we make an impact in humanity and, you know, in history. And so that was something that I always thought of. When I was a child and people would ask me, what do you want to become when you grow up? Usually, you know, a lot of children, you say like a specific career or whatever. I would say I want to be someone who is of use to society or is purposeful for society. And people would laugh at me and they're like, do you even know what that means? And I was like, yes, I do know what that means. But that was like, mission that I saw for myself that I need to be able to serve humanity. I need to be, you know, have a purpose in my life and that has something that always propelled me to be, to try to be the better version of myself and try to improve that because it wasn't just about me, it was how my Utkarsh Narang (04:49.89) Mm. Zolal Habibi (04:55.975) being, you know, of use to my society and to my community. So that always, I think with it brought responsibility, but it also propelled you to move forward and be pushed forward. And I think that has always been very effective, at least in my own life. And I also realized that, you know, these paths that have consequences and they have a price. Utkarsh Narang (05:24.238) Mm. Zolal Habibi (05:24.911) It's not something that everyone's going to do. I mean, if you understand that, if you look throughout history, I think every revolution has been created probably by the 1%. And then it becomes popular, it becomes like 3%. It's not everyone. So are you going to be that one of those change makers, or are you just someone who's going to follow how the stream goes? And I think that's really important. And to be able to... There are times that you have to swim against the current. Are you willing to do that? But stand by your principles no matter how stormy the waters or what the situation is. Are you in it for the long call? I think that's really important. Utkarsh Narang (05:57.977) Mm. Mm. Utkarsh Narang (06:15.054) Yeah, I love everything about that and I deeply resonate with what you're saying and we're going to move to Iran and geopolitics and understanding your view of the world because I'm also a beginner in that space. But before we go there, was there something that happened during your childhood or growing up years? Because what I'm also thinking is there would be someone who's listening to us right now who does not believe in it, like having a purpose or having that higher sense of serving humanity or pushing humanity forward. And they're thinking, I'm just a speck of dust in this great, great, great, great, great galaxy of ours. Why do have to do anything about it? I'm just going to like be and die. And I respect that. But I feel like was there something in your early years that shaped you up to feel like I at four years old? I want to be purposeful for humanity. Zolal Habibi (07:12.721) think that that is the effect of first of all, my parents, think they were great role models in that way for me because like my father was a prominent writer and a human rights activist. so he since since I was born, I had always seen my parents dedication to the cause of freedom in Iran and that they put that before their actual. life paths that they had chosen, like their careers and whatnot. They had put that all aside to be able to concentrate on the human rights situation in Iran, to be active with the resistance. And so I had them as role models in front of me, not through their words, but through their own actions and how they lived their own lives. They could have had a much more prosperous life when you look at like. from a financial perspective or whatnot, but that's not the path that they chose. And then I also grew up in the Iranian resistance. So I was always surrounded by these amazing people that I saw on daily basis. They would put everyone before themselves. And I think that really shaped like how I look at the world, what I see as a purpose, and the fact that we were not in Iran, but there was a day that we didn't think of the people of Iran and what their plight is and what needs to be done. And I think that really, it puts things into perspective. You start realizing that a lot of the things that on daily basis we deal with, they're not that much of a big deal, even though they may seem so. Utkarsh Narang (08:48.536) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (09:01.228) Yeah. Zolal Habibi (09:03.059) when we just start from ourselves and when it's in our own circle or in our own bubble. But when you look at the bigger picture, it loses that weight. So you're able to surpass a lot of things and just move forward. mean, there things that they're not going to stop you. They're not going to hold you back. You could shake it off and just walk away and continue. Utkarsh Narang (09:13.006) Mm. Zolal Habibi (09:32.555) And I think that that just puts a lot of things into perspective. And I think I was, I am part of one of the, you know, a lucky generation that had the possibility to grow up with that. I know, like, if you want to look at the empty side of the cup, yes, we, there was a lot of suffering, was, you know, hardships. mean, the fact that I hope that no child has to... Utkarsh Narang (09:37.336) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (09:53.166) Mm. Zolal Habibi (10:02.247) go through some of the things that we did, know, having my dad killed by the regime or being separated from my mom or things of that nature. I don't wish that on any children, but I also consider myself to be very lucky to be one of those children who experienced that. And I think that helped me become who I am today and it shaped my outlook on the world. And I am forever. grateful to my parents for, you know, choosing the path that they did and bringing. Utkarsh Narang (10:34.529) Yeah. Zolal Habibi (10:41.019) I guess, having this possibility to be acquainted with such a path that you can make that choice. Because a lot of people in the world, I think that if they came across it, they would probably want to follow, but it's never crossed their path. So if you don't know about something, you're not going to be able to follow it. So yeah. Utkarsh Narang (11:01.601) Yeah. Yeah, I love that. And I want to put myself into the shoes of say a 10 year old or a 12 year old growing up right now in India or Australia living their own life. If you were to explain the whole situation of what Iran is going through and has gone through, how would you explain it to a kid? Zolal Habibi (11:31.739) Well, I think I'll explain it to a kid the way that I used to think of it when I was a child. I thought, you know, Iran is like this really great country with a lot of good people in it. But there's this ruler who he he doesn't want to see people happy. So he takes away their smiles. through different methods. Because he doesn't know how to smile himself, he thinks that others shouldn't have a smile either. This was a story that I used to read and say when I was a child. So unfortunately in this country right now that this ruler is ruling, kids our age don't have any... they're not able to be free like we are and go and play and do everything that we want to do. They don't have those rights. So it's really important to be their voice and to understand that, you know, they are actually... you know, denied like the basic things that we have. But they're standing and they're, you know, generation after generation, they're standing, then they want to bring change. They want to be able to live the way we are. They want to have freedom the way we do. And so what we can do is be their voice because children our age, 10, 12, 13, are being killed in Iran. And so... Utkarsh Narang (13:01.091) Mm. Zolal Habibi (13:06.703) We have that chance now to be their voice and to tell the world that the people of want freedom and they want democracy and they want to not to be ruled by like one individual or a king or a ruler or whatnot. They want to have democracy. Utkarsh Narang (13:29.294) And something that you said that just... I had shivers down my spine. I have two boys who are 15 and 12. And as you said that there are kids who are 10, 11, 12, 13 who are being killed and all like it baffles my mind beyond imagination Zolal. That how on earth in this day and age when we talk about AI and this and that and space travel and what not, we can't protect our children. What the hell are we really doing here? How did humanity go this wrong? Zolal Habibi (14:10.883) I think that this is a true sign for a regime. If you kill the future generation, it's the future of your country. These are your actual assets. But that shows your true nature. Unfortunately, this isn't just today or in the recent uprising, because unfortunately in the recent uprisings, when you look at the list of teenagers and children who've been killed, most of those who have been killed, is in the thousands and thousands, are in their early 20s or younger. But this isn't just from today. I remember growing up, I always thought of Fatemeh Mesbah. She was a 13-year-old girl who was executed by the regime at age of 13. I always thought like when I was getting older, like how much does a 13-year-old know about politics to be executed based on that? Yes, she was someone who was very informed because she was like 10 at the time of the revolution. so she grew up with the revolution in 1979. But in 1981, she was executed along with her parents and her siblings. And you know. that entire family was wiped out. Her father was one of the merchants from the bazaar, Tehran's bazaar. He was a very well-known merchant. So these days there's a lot of parallels because this uprising began from the bazaar and the merchants. And so her father was a leading figure in that during the 1979 revolution. And so they revolted with so many hopes and dreams. And then to have... Zolal Habibi (16:08.871) I remember of their family executed. To this day, their family stands as a symbol for the people of Iran. So I grew up with seeing her pictures. Her picture, she looks, you could see that innocence in her. this innocent girl, and I remember, I always, even when I was a child, whenever I looked at her picture, I felt like I could feel her eyes looking at me. That's the purity that it had. Utkarsh Narang (16:11.704) Mm. Zolal Habibi (16:38.825) always thought, based on what were they executed. And it wasn't just her. I, even as a child, I remember at that time, I mean, the number of executions were lower than they are now because so many people have been executed throughout the years. But to me, those who stood out were the teenagers. And I knew like their names and their, you know, what age they were. So I knew like 13, 14, 15, 16 year olds. All of them have been executed. And so they were some that's something that always resonated with me. Like I, felt and growing up, think, especially when I became a teenager, there is a time that you know people are like oh you guys are kids and I was like well are we really just kids because people our age are being killed in our country and so we understand that once I have that understanding I remember I I thought like well I'm sorry I understand more than maybe a lot of adults because of the circumstances that I grew up in so no that brings responsibility I can't say I'm a just I'm just a child I'm not just a child anymore because I understand these complex situations Utkarsh Narang (17:30.83) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (17:39.149) Yes. Zolal Habibi (17:51.545) and what our role each is. And so I think that, as I said, that just changes your perspective on a lot of things in life. And you come face to face with decisions that maybe people at that age shouldn't be making or shouldn't have to make, but those were the circumstances that we had. Utkarsh Narang (17:52.013) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (18:06.926) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (18:11.342) Absolutely. Utkarsh Narang (18:17.248) And it just pains me to hear all of this. it does not seem like a... It does not seem like there's... It's deeper than politics, is what I'm trying to gather here from what you're sharing, because it feels it's psychological. It's more mental. It's more... Like you said, right, that the leader themselves does not know how to smile. And so... All they're now trying to do is to erase smiles that are around them. When did that happen? How did freedom, instead of being that idea that people admire, love, adore, became a necessity in Iran and you had to fight this fight, Zolal? When did that happen? Zolal Habibi (19:05.255) Sorry, could you repeat that question? I broke up the audio for a second. Utkarsh Narang (19:08.75) Freedom is something that's innate to the human spirit, right? So when did freedom became such a tough fight for people in Iran? And what impact do you think it's having on the current generation and the future generations? Zolal Habibi (19:15.824) Yeah. Zolal Habibi (19:28.007) Well, I think that freedom is a God-given right, but it's not always something that's given, unfortunately, because there's power hunger in the world. And this is throughout history. It's not just today. It's throughout history. Egotism, you know, egoism creates that. So... If you understand how the negative impacts of being egotistical, comes with it. Dictatorships form from that. These power struggles form from that. And so there are those who, to be able to have that power, they're willing to... Utkarsh Narang (20:08.462) Hmm. Zolal Habibi (20:21.315) exploit others. And that's how, you know, throughout history, from slavery to, you you know, the biases that we see in society, all of it is derived from that. I think that in Iran, while the quest for freedom has been continuing for 120 years, at least, since like the 1906 revolution till today, it's 120 years. So people of Iran have been fighting for freedom and democracy for 120 years, but unfortunately, each time that they had a revolution, it was very short lived. And it was unfortunately due to foreign intervention, it's always been prevented. Utkarsh Narang (21:17.783) Hmm. Zolal Habibi (21:18.027) and the new dictatorship has come into power. like for instance after the 1906 revolution the system was changing, know, a parliament was forming, you know, having constitution was forming and these things were happening and there was a military coup, they brought Reza Khan to become the king. and the British because he served their interests and unfortunately we we see the start of the Pahlawi dynasty and then 20 years later approximately when he wasn't serving those purposes anymore they took him out. Utkarsh Narang (21:48.238) Mm-mm. Utkarsh Narang (21:53.666) Mm-mm. Zolal Habibi (22:02.215) They sent him into exile and they brought his son in. His son, well, he was, he didn't have the strength that his father did and he also had seen like how his father was taken out. So at first he, you know, tried to give some leeway and whatnot. He didn't have complete grip over, you know, society. And then, well, people were still going through that democratic path. So they had, they elected the prime minister which was Dr. Mossadegh and he nationalized Iran's oil and that was not in the interest of foreign powers and it wasn't in the interest of the Shah because he wasn't Utkarsh Narang (22:39.8) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (22:50.349) Hmm. Zolal Habibi (22:50.519) that he was putting him in his place that if you're going to be if this is a constitutional monarchy you need to just be a figurehead and you can't get involved into these things and that's not something they wanted to see so what happened was the CIA and MI6 carried a coup d'etat against Dr. Mosaddegh and took him out and they reinstated Reza Pahlavi Utkarsh Narang (23:16.642) Mm-mm. Zolal Habibi (23:18.289) Well, from that moment, the Shah realized that, hey, it's not like that, that he can keep his grip on power, you know, that easily. So what did he do? He, the Savak was put in place. political groups, organizations, parties were banned and Iran became a one-party state. The Shah said, the only party is the Ras Daghist Party. If you don't like it, leave the country or you're going to go to prison. And unfortunately, since then, thousands of political prisoners were executed in Iran. And the Savak was known for its notorious methods of torture and whatnot, which is still unprecedented to a great extent. And that is how he was able to keep his grip on power. And then the people revolted again because they didn't, that's not what they wanted. So. Utkarsh Narang (24:06.83) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (24:10.616) Hmm. Zolal Habibi (24:15.387) They revolted, but it was the Cold War era. about six months before the fall of the Shah, the international community was realizing that the Shah is about to fall and it's now going to be able to continue this way. So what did they do? They had a conference in Guadalupe. They had Khomeini transferred from Najaf in Iraq to Paris. They had negotiations with him. He made some empty promises to them, but they thought this is the Cold War era, Iran. Utkarsh Narang (24:18.286) Hmm. Zolal Habibi (24:44.583) plays a very important geopolitical role. It's bordering USSR. If the, you know, revolutionaries who are creating this revolution come into power, they have progressive views. So they might not be aligned with, you know, the messaging of the West, and especially because of the experience that they've had with foreign intervention in their country. And they might have leniencies to the USSR or whatnot. So maybe it's better to have fundamentalist in power, even though we know his views belong to the Middle Ages, but he's going to stand in front of the USSR. So unfortunately, Western powers brought Khomeini in. It was not the people of Iran who chose Khomeini. Khomeini was brought in. And also you have to understand, due to the suppression that the Shah had created, Utkarsh Narang (25:21.282) and Utkarsh Narang (25:29.964) Hmm Zolal Habibi (25:41.285) that there's a saying in Farsi, they say, whenever they want to say, watch out what you're saying, they say, watch out, the walls have mice and the mice have ears. And this was in regards to the Savak because the Savak was everywhere and they're listening and they're, you know, whatnot. people, they knew what they didn't want, but they didn't know what their choices were because there was some complete suppression. It wasn't the age of technology as it is today or communication. So people didn't hear about a lot of things. But what did... Utkarsh Narang (25:53.357) Hmm. Zolal Habibi (26:11.207) the Shah extend during his time. During the time of Muhammad as a Pahlavi, Iran went from 500 mosques to 5,000 mosques throughout the country because he actually used the clergy to legitimize his power. If you look, I mean, this is a long story. I don't want to get into it, but if you even look at the names of the Pahlavi dynasty, they're all like Utkarsh Narang (26:22.19) Mm. Zolal Habibi (26:39.301) Reza, Ali Reza, Muhammad Reza, something Reza because Imam Reza, which is the eighth Shia Imam who was Iranian and is buried in Mashhad, they wanted to create that connection to say that we are his descendants so we are, you know, and then the Shah actually said that when I was a child, Imam Ali came into my dreams and told me when I was five that, you know, I this is my role and this is, know. Utkarsh Narang (26:43.246) Hmm. Zolal Habibi (27:09.541) whatever, I'm the chosen one and whatnot. And he called himself the shadow of God on earth. That's what he titled himself. So they used the clergy to, you know, legitimize their power. And so the only network that was intact at the time of the revolution was the clergy. Everyone else was in the prisons or executed and killed. Those who were not Utkarsh Narang (27:17.582) Mmm. Zolal Habibi (27:39.121) touched where the clergy, so that's why they were able to fill that vacuum really quick, that power vacuum. And so we are where we are. So unfortunately, that is why Iranians are so... Utkarsh Narang (27:44.653) Hmm. Zolal Habibi (27:56.327) critical or hesitant also or agitated over the issue of foreign intervention in their country because we have that experience. We don't want foreign intervention in our country. We think that our people have the strength, they have the willpower and they have the desires there, everything is there. They can create change themselves. Utkarsh Narang (28:02.754) Yeah. Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (28:24.108) Yeah. Yeah. Zolal Habibi (28:25.595) They have that in them. so what is important is all they're asking for the international community is could you please not intervene. And that means no war, no appeasement. It means not negotiating with the regime and using the people and the resistance as bargaining chips. Then we have the potential to create change ourselves. that is the message of the Iranian people. Because unfortunately, I mean, if you look at Utkarsh Narang (28:35.086) Mm. Zolal Habibi (28:56.571) There have been a lot of attempts that through foreign intervention, they've tried to bring in democracy. Democracy can't be brought in through foreign intervention. We've seen it. And just in the Middle East, look at the situation. So the people, everyone wants to take their destiny into their own hands. They are so as Maryam Rajavi, the president-elect of the Iranian resistance, always says, she says she's been she hasn't been saying this today. Utkarsh Narang (29:14.787) Yeah. Zolal Habibi (29:24.583) for the past 20 years she's been saying this, 21 years now. The choice is not between war or appeasement. There's a third option and that's supporting the Iranian people in their resistance. And the people of Iran as a solution, they're not stuck between choosing between the current theocracy and the previous monarchy, which was a dictatorship too. They want to move forward to a secular democratic republic. Utkarsh Narang (29:33.934) Mm. Utkarsh Narang (29:48.621) and Utkarsh Narang (29:53.453) Yeah. Zolal Habibi (29:54.745) a republic with separation of religion and state. So that in itself draws in line with all forms of tyranny that we have experienced in the last century in Iran. And I think that especially the Gen Z of Iran right now, are in the forefront of this uprising, they are seeing, we are in the age of communication, they are seeing the world and they know that what we have, this is not the norm. Utkarsh Narang (30:03.981) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (30:20.162) Hmm Yeah. Yeah. Zolal Habibi (30:24.891) This is not life. A lot of them say we're alive, but we're not living. So this is you can't continue with this current status quo. Everyone knows that no one's going to hand us freedom in a silver platter. We have to pay the price for it. But because they have that assurance that there is a bright future ahead and they are willing to take that risk, they're willing to make that sacrifice. And that's what we're seeing on the streets of Iran, that bravery, that the fact that, know, that resilience, that the fact that they're on the offensive, even with empty hands, standing in front of military guards or like suppressive forces who are armed to the teeth. That is because they are rest assured that, you know what, even if we die in this path, there are guarantees that we will be able to see it for Iran. Utkarsh Narang (31:04.856) Hmm. Zolal Habibi (31:23.739) the people of Iran or the future generations or our generation will see that free Iran, but someone has to be willing to pay that price. And they understand that today better than anyone else because they've seen the last 47 years. What has led, what has allowed the regime to extend its life line, life line all these years. It's because due to the brutalities of the regime, due to the fact that 120,000 people have been executed just for their political views under this regime, due to the fact that just in 2025, 2,200 people were executed in Iran. And these are just the official numbers. People realize that families, I mean, it's, guess, your instinct to... Utkarsh Narang (31:54.38) Hmm. Zolal Habibi (32:17.435) you know, survival of the fittest right? So you try to safeguard your own family, your loved ones, and just keep them safe. Don't go in the streets. Don't do this. Don't do that. if we don't go to the streets, nothing's going to change. And is this how we want to continue living? Is this what we want for our future? I think that's the point that the Iranian society has reached today. Utkarsh Narang (32:31.374) Yeah. But here's a question. Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (32:42.658) Yeah, if you're alive but you're not living. But I'm thinking of someone who's like a Gen Z or a young person who's seeing what's opening up in the world. In this moment, me as a Iranian Gen Z would be super angry almost. And so what are you seeing? Like is this, is this revolution fueled by that anger and rage? Or is it fueled by... passion and vision and if there's something else I'd love to hear from you. Zolal Habibi (33:15.623) I think it's a mixture of both. I think that first of all, there's extent to how far anger can... Utkarsh Narang (33:17.678) Hmm. Zolal Habibi (33:32.071) can fuel your activities and whatnot. When you want to go into something like this, it has to come out of love and passion and that ideal. There's like, for instance, myself, mean, if it was only issue of like revenge for my father's death, I... Why would I take that risk in my own life? Because it's going to be the continuation of the same thing. The only thing that gives me that strength and that courage and that inspiration to continue is the fact that I truly want to see the freedom of the Iranian people. Even if that comes at the price of my life, that's fine. And that's what, that's the same love and passion that I saw in my dad too. Like my dad, the way he would talk to me, like I've never actually been to Iran unfortunately. I was born and raised abroad. My dad comes from a small town in the south, southern part of Iran. And... Utkarsh Narang (34:38.584) Hmm. Zolal Habibi (34:40.325) the passion that he had talking about that, you know, small town and, you know, it's a rural area and, you know, and the way he spoke about them, like, you could tell that he was willing to give sacrifice everything in his life for those people, you know, for that shepherd that he grew up knowing for that, you know, like, Utkarsh Narang (34:44.686) Mm. Zolal Habibi (35:05.991) that small town, like the people there, like the way he spoke about them. I, that was something, and he was someone who was like, he had his doctors in sociology, was like a prominent writer and whatever, but he never left. His heart was still there, you know, and that love, and he was like, they deserve so much better. They, they're such good people, they deserve so, and he always talked about it so much that I had took pride in saying that, Utkarsh Narang (35:23.576) to do that. Utkarsh Narang (35:27.468) Hmm. Zolal Habibi (35:35.987) I am from that little village in Iran. And I remember when I was a kid, people would like joke around with me and they're like, you were born in the heart of the USA and Washington DC. And you're like, I'm proud to say I'm from this village in Iran. And I was like, yeah, I am proud to say when you asked me where am I from, I don't say Iran. I say I'm from that village. I'm from Qais. And I like my dad had actually added the name of that village to his last name, but in parentheses. Utkarsh Narang (35:38.924) in the south of France. Utkarsh Narang (36:05.645) Yeah. Zolal Habibi (36:05.801) And I ended up adding it to my last name like completely. And I remember my mom saw my signature once like after I was grown up, like just a few years ago. And she was like, hold on. you've added that to your last thing. was like, yeah. And she's like, since when? I was like, since I was 10. And she found it really interesting. She was like, that's interesting. Your dad even had an appendices. I was like, yeah, well, I've added it to my last name But that sense of love and pride, I think that's really important because that's what propels us to move forward. Utkarsh Narang (36:21.197) Yeah. Bye. Utkarsh Narang (36:33.102) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (36:38.828) And it is a deep sense of love and pleasure. Correct. Correct. Zolal Habibi (36:42.791) Revenge is like a very dead circle and you're not going to, I mean you're not going to continue this fight for like 26, I've been in this resistance for 26 years. Maybe even in my initial decision, that didn't play if that wasn't a factor. It was important for me that if my dad would be proud of me following in his footsteps, but it wasn't, I want revenge for those who killed my dad because that cycle of death is never going to end in revenge. And that is why I think it's very beautiful that Mrs. Rajaivi in her 10 point plan, the third... Utkarsh Narang (37:14.51) Yeah. Zolal Habibi (37:23.655) point in the 10 point plan is the abolition of the death penalty and all forms of torture in the future of Iran and the abolition of all of the, you know, suppressive forces and whatnot. It would be, I mean, understandable. Utkarsh Narang (37:29.486) Mm. Zolal Habibi (37:42.545) For people like the automatic, a lot of people just automatically they think that, okay, well, after the fall of the regime, these, the true like Khomeini and whatever, they need to be eliminated, killed, whatever. But Mr. Rajavi says no. Utkarsh Narang (37:56.43) you Zolal Habibi (37:59.505) She says, there needs to be a judicial process. There needs to be courts. There needs to be these lessons need to be learned in history, but we're not going to, how do we legitimize or legitimize taking away a life? Because then someone else is going to legitimize it for someone else too. And this cycle is never going to end. I found it very interesting that like I was reading something and I thought I... Utkarsh Narang (38:03.522) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (38:16.685) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (38:20.568) Correct, 100%. 100%. Zolal Habibi (38:28.687) It was from back in 1979. Back after the revolution, Khomeini, were having members of the Shah's government or whatever killed, executed or elected members of the savak they went to, and then the MEK found out, the Iranian resistance, and they went. and gave an official statement, said, not under our names. We were the ones who were tortured the most by the Savak. We were the ones who have given the martyrs. But this is not what we want. Our suggestion is give us the Olympic Utkarsh Narang (39:04.846) Hmm. Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (39:11.64) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Zolal Habibi (39:23.943) you know, the city that they set up for the Olympics, give that to us. We will set up infrastructure like hotels. This is where these people will be held. And then let's have dialogues with them. Let's try to understand what was the mentality behind it? Why did they join these suppressive forces? Why did they take part in torture? And try to learn lessons from that to make sure that it's not repeated. Utkarsh Narang (39:26.691) Mm-hmm. Utkarsh Narang (39:33.326) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (39:36.93) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (39:53.026) Yeah. Yeah. Zolal Habibi (39:53.963) And these are for those who have regrets and the fact that they did this. So let's just try to gain from it for society and learn from it and to try to prevent these things from shaping again. And so I think that's like two different mentalities of how to look at things. And when I was reading it, was really, even though I'm a member of this movement and I know that that's what we believe in and what we stand for, but the fact that Back then in 1979, the leader of this movement who was just 30 years old and had just come out of the last set of political prisoners who was released from prison. This is what his reaction was. And this is how the suggestions they had. think it says volumes about the values and the principles that they stood by. And just imagine if that was the path that had been taken. after the 1979 revolution. If instead of Khomeini, those revolutionaries had actually been able to create that democratic republic that they wanted to have for the people of Iran. And I think that today Iran could have been a great power that would be able to push Utkarsh Narang (40:50.114) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (40:57.966) Yeah. Zolal Habibi (41:12.485) society and humanity into a positive direction instead of being a destabilizing force in the number one state sponsor of terrorism and the number one executioner in the world. For our people, it's always sad that we're the country that had the first human rights charter and now it's the number one country in executions and suppression. Utkarsh Narang (41:36.589) Wow, it would have been such a different world. Utkarsh Narang (41:43.087) There's so much depth in this conversation. I'm processing everything that you're sharing, Zolal If you were to... To everyone who's listening to this outside of Iran, if you were to give them one message on what they can learn from this movement to anyone who's in India, in Australia, in parts of Europe, in America, what do they learn from this movement? Zolal Habibi (42:10.95) I think. Zolal Habibi (42:18.361) I think one of the most important things is the fact that this movement has turned its principles to its policies. So what we hear about politics always is politics is a dirty world. And that's what we see. But the fact that they have changed, turned their values and their principles into the policy that they push forward and their messaging and to be standing for that and promoting that and that is what has helped us stand continuously for 60 years despite all the efforts to try to have us eliminated completely. And I think that Utkarsh Narang (42:48.109) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (43:02.092) Yeah. Zolal Habibi (43:06.937) It has been able to create a whole movement around the world, bringing people together that never thought they would be able to sit at the same table or be under the same roof. We used to have these annual gatherings in Paris and like hundred thousand people would attend and there would be about 600 dignitaries from around the world, from the Arab world to the US to Europe to Australia, everywhere. Utkarsh Narang (43:16.28) Yeah. Zolal Habibi (43:36.495) We even have people who came from India always too. So from all around the world, these 600 dignitaries. And then you would have, so from around the world, but also from... both sides of the spectrum, like the political strength of the spectrum from far right to far left were all united on this one issue. there was a picture once that there was this one person, mean, two politicians, I won't say their names because I don't want to point them out, but one was supposed to be like considered very left in the US and one was considered to be like hawkish in the US. And they were both sitting together in Utkarsh Narang (44:14.35) Mm. Utkarsh Narang (44:17.816) today. Zolal Habibi (44:20.441) inside one phone and trying to work together to tweet and it was the beginning of Twitter back then and that picture became viral like you know and everyone thought like whoever thought that these two people would actually agree on anything with one another but this movement was one thing that they agreed on and so we always emphasize that because in the propaganda war they tried to use this against us like with different parties that come especially in the US one day they'll be like these people support them and then the next it will Utkarsh Narang (44:25.613) Right, right. Utkarsh Narang (44:36.782) You're done. Zolal Habibi (44:50.221) these people support them, they'll try to use it against us, but the reality is that they're supporting us. It's not that this movement is supporting their views, they are supporting the views of this movement because they can find those core principles and values in it and I think that's really important. That's how Mrs. Rajavi has been able to lead. Also one of the things that I also find interesting when you look at the committees, the NCRI has 25 committees. Utkarsh Narang (44:50.958) Yeah. Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (45:08.738) Yeah. Zolal Habibi (45:19.675) But the committees in themselves, they actually speak volumes. These committees represent ministries in a government. In every government, there is a defense ministry, Ministry of Defense, or now in the US it's war, or whatnot. In the NCRI, the equivalent is the Peace Committee. How are you going to use? Utkarsh Narang (45:23.47) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (45:33.87) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (45:43.982) Beautiful, beautiful. Completely speaking the script. Peace. Yeah. Yeah. That's a beautiful. Zolal Habibi (45:48.215) that to reach peace instead of waging war or defense or whatnot. So I think that these are like principles that they speak volumes and it's very important. Utkarsh Narang (45:56.431) Yeah. Thank you for sharing. That's such a beautiful thought, turning your policy, your principles and your values into policies. As we get to this end of this conversation, Zolal, and thank you for sharing everything that you did. I think it absolutely gives lessons that we can put into practice and I'll reiterate all of that. But if now we go into the future and there's the 80 year old Zolal, 80 years old, eight zero. And that Zolal comes to you right now in this moment and has one piece of advice on how to lead the rest of the years. What would that 80 year old tell you to do? Zolal Habibi (46:37.511) I'm sure that that 80 year old will tell me things that I don't know right now. But if I were to guess, it would tell me, you know, about that. The life choices made, they were in the right path. Iran is free. and we are seeing it, you know, the prosperity of Iran and Iranians. And the country that once was unfortunately the epicenter of fundamentalism and terrorism and warmongering and execution is now, you know, the center of pushing forward civilization and, you know, equality, gender equality, you know, between the ethnicities and also promoting Zolal Habibi (47:36.583) those values that all human beings are created equal and they need to be treated as equal. it's, you know, taking its rightful place in the international community as a stabilizing force, as a country that has so much potential to give, because currently Iran is the number one, has the number one brain drain in the world. So just imagine if all of those assets are actually Utkarsh Narang (47:38.158) Mm. Utkarsh Narang (47:52.206) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (47:55.758) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (48:01.091) Yeah. Stayed. Yeah. Zolal Habibi (48:05.719) used to the, for the, you know, pushing forward. And I think that would be a beautiful Iran that we hope to see soon. Utkarsh Narang (48:13.358) Amazing. Thank you for sharing. It's so heartfelt for everyone who's still listening to us, with us on this journey with Zolal. The life choices that make you when you get to that 80 year old self, they took you on the right path. Always remember, all human beings are equal. We're all beautiful, amazing, amazing beings. Anything that you do should be fueled by love and passion. Maybe a mix of anger, but use it for the right reasons and... in the right way. Think about what you have right now that millions across the world don't. And be full of gratitude for what you have. I love the fact that he said Zolal that the choice is not between war and appeasement. It is to let Iran choose for itself. Freedom is a God-given right. But power and egoism leads to freedom being compromised. There are times when you'll have to swim against the currents. There'll be times when you'll have to pursue a path that's less taken. If you're willing to, you will last. You will not give in. You will not give up. The times will be tough. They will be hard, but you will get through and rise above. If you can start, to all our listeners, if you can start to put these things into practice and get informed about what's happening across the world and be curious to learning the other person's viewpoint. Magical things can happen. Magical things can We'll put all the links where you can connect to Zolal and if you have more questions feel free to reach out to her. We'll put those links in the show notes below. Zolal, any final thoughts before we wrap up? Zolal Habibi (49:59.623) Well, I think you said everything beautifully. Yeah, thank you for this opportunity and thank you for those who have listened so far and my final words I guess is please wherever you are don't take for granted what you have and try to use it and actually try to echo the voice of the Iranian people and the fact that I mean right now there is a lot of dialogue about Iran everywhere so echo that message of the Iranian people that you know there's there are third options on Iran be it it's not the solution is not war or appeasement supporting the people and their resistance and also we're not stuck between Utkarsh Narang (50:34.958) Yeah. Zolal Habibi (50:42.097) choosing between theocracy and classical dictatorship, a monarchy, we can move forward to a secular democratic republic and I hope that we'll be able to see that soon. Utkarsh Narang (50:55.449) Thank you everyone for listening. If you think there's someone who would value this conversation and will learn more from what Zolal and I spoke about, share it with them. If you are here, put your name in the comment, put something that you're taking away from this conversation. It will mean the world to us. This is Utkarsh and Zolal signing off.