Utkarsh Narang (00:01.132) Welcome to another episode of the IgnitedNeurons podcast. Today, after about 33 episodes, we're talking to someone where we're going to talk about love again. The first time we spoke about it, it was love in the workplace. Sounds really scandalous, love in the workplace. But today we'll speak with Zoey and the conversation is around, can love in fact be calculated? Zoey, welcome to the conversation. Zoey (00:06.763) episodes, we're going to find them, maybe at top of the line again. Zoey (00:25.717) Thank you so much. I'm so excited to be here. Utkarsh Narang (00:28.566) Absolutely. I'm looking forward to this because when I heard about this idea of love be calculated, I was like, I need to dive into this because if you can find a measure for love, which is such a universal expression of, of, of, of who we are as human beings, I think that'll be powerful for our listeners today. Zoey (00:47.783) Absolutely. And yes, I confirm that yes, in fact, love can be calculated. And there is so much nuance to this theory, and it's such a massive framework. But with that said, I also figured out that not only can you calculate love between two people, you can calculate self love. And when you calculate self love and you have strong self love, That's how you sustain a relationship, which is all validated by the analytics. So I'm very excited to share this with the audience in terms of how to enhance your self-worth, your self-esteem, how you feel you show up as a human as well. And it's a very easy framework and I'll provide an action plan as well. And yeah, take it from there. Utkarsh Narang (01:37.806) Amazing. Love it. Love it. Looking forward to this. And the ritual at the podcast here is that we want to deep dive into who you are as a human being, because I think we all carry unique stories and they need to come out to the world. So my question to you Zoey is, if you were to go back to that eight year old Zoey, wherever Zoey was growing up, and if that eight year old were to come and meet you right now, what kind of conversation would emerge between the two of you? Zoey (02:05.839) It's like, girl, you have no idea what's about to happen to you. You have no idea. Whatever you assume you know, the sky is the limit. God is just limitless. And whatever you think you can imagine, the cosmos are just so much more grand than your imagination. So it'll be better than you ever imagined. So that's what I would say to my eight-year-old self. It's better than what you could ever imagine. Utkarsh Narang (02:43.156) limitless, the cosmos has bigger things in plan, what would she say? She's a little eight year old. Zoey (02:51.019) She would say, I'm very confused. I don't understand what you're saying, right? True. But with that, I think that as kids, at least for me, I thought I knew everything, right? You're an eight-year-old. You're learning math for the first time. You have new friends for the first time. And you just have this confidence that you have it figured out, right? You have no idea what you don't know. And as I grew up, my life just shifted. so much, so many pivots, so many transitions. And every time I transitioned, I was afraid, but what would come out from that and the new chapter was just so unreal and surreal because it's grander than anything I could have ever imagined. And that literally happens without fail every three years or every X amount of years where it's like, even right now I'm going through a transition. And I'm going to be a bit more open about the transition, probably about six months. But with this transition, I was actually initially kind of scared. And now that I'm going through the transition, I'm pretty much in my new chapter. I'm like, wow, it's so much better than what I thought it would be. And all those fears that I had in terms of letting go and shedding, I'm now, again, just so much, I didn't even know this was possible. I didn't even know this reality was possible for me. So I guess I would tell my eight year old self, it's just life is so much more grand than what you give it credit for. And your mind is not wise enough to comprehend it, but when it becomes wise enough to comprehend it, you'll see just, it's beautiful. Life is beautiful. Utkarsh Narang (04:41.517) It's amazing. As I was listening to you, sometimes it's easier to look back and connect the dots, right? And see that the pivots, the transitions, the changes that happened were meant to be, were preparing us for something larger. But for those who are, say, at the cusp of that change, at that, they're just entering that transition phase. It is really painful and it is really exhausting. Zoey (05:03.339) Thank Hmm. Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (05:10.763) What do you think happened through your journey? That someone who's right now feeling like, I wish there was change, but I don't see the limitlessness of the cosmos. Zoey (05:19.947) Yeah, guess it comes down to trust for me, especially in my adulthood. When I knew I was going through these transitions, I always told myself, God will not let me fall. I haven't fallen. In fact, since I was a child, my life has spiraled upwards, right? And by the way, I had a really tough childhood. I was born in Afghanistan, we moved to Geneva, then Montreal, then Vancouver. We didn't have any family. My parents were immigrants, refugees. It was not easy. With all of that, in the beginning, when I was a child, a child and young adult, I did not realize what these transitions were. It's into my adulthood that I realized. I'm about to move into a transition. And although every time I, I don't want to say I was dreading it per se, because I knew was something that I needed. I knew that I wanted to shed and let go of an old life because it was no longer serving me. But there was a part of me where it's like, man, again, I'm doing it again. I'm going into unchartered territory again. It's going to be an unpredictable new chapter. What is coming to me? Right. But I always told myself, God will not let me fall. And if you are true to your soul and true to your identity, and you let go of a past life that simply does not serve you, that drains you, that anchors you, where your mind just starts looping and you feel like you're stuck and stagnant, that's literally your soul's push. for you to just move on. And although it's scary because the ego needs predictability, the ego needs control, the ego needs to know what your day-to-day is going to look like. Shed that. Your soul has a bigger purpose. And just rest assured, once again, God will not let you fall. Now everyone has their own definition of God. For some people it's nature, for others it's cosmos, for others it's their angels, their ancestors. Zoey (07:36.061) whatever it may mean to you. For me, it's just a supernatural force that is guiding me through life that's bigger than me. And it's a higher consciousness that I cannot see, that sometimes I think I can feel, other times I'm not really that sure, to be honest, but I know is there because I've just seen the patterns of my life and the trajectory of my life. And I just know that I'm protected. Utkarsh Narang (08:04.971) I'll let that sink in because what you said was really deep and thoughtful because, you know, I sometimes feel like there are certain people in the world and I'm not over generalizing and no one's right or wrong here. But when there is this unrelenting trust in some higher force guiding you, it makes the path easier. It does not get easy. It is always challenging. But I think the way you're Zoey (08:25.663) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Utkarsh Narang (08:33.389) sharing it, makes me feel like you're someone who's looking at the glass always full, the eternal optimism. Is that assumption correct? Zoey (08:44.523) Yeah, I especially have to remind myself when I go through the transitions because those are the moments where I have fear. It's those moments where I'm afraid of what life will look like past, you know, the shedding and outgrowing. And that's when I really have to remind myself to be optimistic. Otherwise, my day to day, I would say I'm a realist. Utkarsh Narang (09:13.549) Love it. Zoey (09:14.187) I don't know if that's another word for pessimist. I mean, I enjoy my life, right? Every day I'm very lucky that I get to experience small wins daily because I'm tapped into a lot of different things, whether it's exercise or my work or my book or podcasting, right, or my friendship. So I'm very fortunate that I'm tapped into a lot of things that I enjoy. So daily I have little wins and those boost me, right? But I have to make sure I keep those consistent because, yeah, because I think that I absolutely could have the tendency of dipping into lacking gratitude or lacking stimulation or feeling stagnant. So I, for better or worse, Utkarsh Narang (09:48.685) Hmm. Zoey (10:08.235) Maybe it's the Scorpio in me, I don't know. But I do think that I can default to that. So since I know that I can default to that, I'm just mindful of peppering wins throughout my day, even if it's just one, right? And that makes me happy. Utkarsh Narang (10:25.377) Yeah, love it. Love it. The little joys of life, right? You were just saying, so you moved from Afghanistan to Geneva to then Vancouver through this whole journey. When did love come into the picture? Zoey (10:29.235) Yeah. Zoey (10:42.687) Well, my first crush was when I was six years old and his name was Samuel, Samuel, if you're listening to Samuel. Utkarsh Narang (10:52.397) Get in touch with Zoey. This is your moment. This is your moment. I can see Zoey dressing. Zoey (10:52.967) my god. I'm a grown woman now. Look at me now. But no, he was my crush and I really liked him and I was only six. So I think that's when I realized that I have this like passion for connection, right? I'm sure all kids have a crush. This cannot be unique to me, for sure not. But I think what might be a little unique to me is my... My intuition and my ability to connect with people on a spiritual level, which I didn't realize that I have until I was much older, but I think that it's something that was always within me because even my mom, her word for me was always, Sohs, der Sohs was empath. As a child, she would call me empath. So I think that it's something that's inherent within me and I think beyond just the empathy, think it's just vibrations and spiritual connection. I think I just feel it to an extent that might be a bit of an outlier. That's how I assume I navigate the world compared to other people. So with that, when you connect, that will... Zoey (12:23.051) very naturally form and manifest into love. Love doesn't have to be in love, romantic love, but it can be a love of I see you as a human, I feel you as a human, for better or worse, because I feel pain, other people's pain as well, and I take it on. Like I literally feel it in my cells. So yeah, I think that it's just something that's always been within me, but I think probably Samuel. kind of activated that and that's when I learned what romantic, what romance was and you know, like all of that, the butterflies. And then of course that evolved, that evolved in very different definitions of love. Utkarsh Narang (13:08.205) That's from that crush at six years old to giving this wisdom. I love this, you know, love has two definitions, right? There could be one that's like the more pop culture, MTV kind of definition that all you can have is like romantic love, the physical attraction and all of that. And maybe somewhere in the podcast today, I'm making a note of that. We'll speak about what do women really want in men so that women out there and men out there can start to understand that. Zoey (13:12.491) This Zoey (13:24.939) Mm-hmm. Zoey (13:36.191) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (13:36.215) But then you spoke about something that's the higher level love. How do you differentiate between the two? The pop culture versus this higher, almost like spiritual love, I heard you say. Zoey (13:47.743) Yeah, mean, spiritual love, I don't know if there's a real definition to it. It's just how I interpret spiritual connection. There's so much information online in terms of what it could be. It could be mirror neurons, right? It could be someone's emotional makeup just matching yours. And then your, your neurons pick up on that. Your intuition picks up on that and picks up on, you guys probably have similar humor. or similar, you know, essence, if you want to call it. And perhaps that is what develops into that spiritual connection, that thing that we cannot see, where there's two people vibrating at the same frequency and then they meet each other and they just know that they're connected. I don't know that I know enough about this to know how to define it, other than it seems to be a feeling. Utkarsh Narang (14:40.085) Mm. Mm. Zoey (14:45.061) because there have been people that in fact I did not connect with on an emotional makeup type of way but spiritually I could feel them spiritually there was something there soul to soul I don't know I don't know what a soul really is I don't know what it is it's energy so could it be that the energies are just so close together in terms of frequency that you recognize each other could it be a thing of past lives which I believe in Utkarsh Narang (14:59.213) Yeah. Zoey (15:14.827) Could it be just mirror neurons or could it be a calculation which is the newest form of? Understanding love because I validated that I can predict within two people that Whether they'll stay together or not through a calculation. So I think love is just So nuanced there are so many angles to look at it and It makes sense because as humans our primal instinct is to procreate and you're not going to procreate with someone that you think will have a weak offspring with. hence love, hence oxytocin, hence all these hormones that are being activated that are saying, yeah, that one, I want that one. Go for it. Right? Utkarsh Narang (16:00.526) Yeah, yeah, that's very interesting. I think as you're speaking about and I agree like we're not experts on understanding what this higher levels and I love how you said it's a very nuanced thing love it's it's not fully understood yet and there's so much we can see but this vibrating at the same frequency this idea of mirror neurons I think it resonates really deeply with me because I'm just trying to see all the conversations, the relationships and maybe some are coming in some are not to my mind. But those that are coming to mind are the ones where you can call it like a spark, right? But it's a deeper level spark. It's not just getting physically attracted to the other person, but it's like feeling that their presence makes you a better human being. Zoey (16:47.435) Yeah, yeah. And by the way, exactly what you just said, I was able to validate with calculations, because we found that the couples who are currently together felt lucky to have their partner. In other words, they assigned a self score numerical assessment of their self worth, they assigned a score to their partner and the partner was scoring just slightly above them. That's the calculation that we're talking about. Utkarsh Narang (17:16.333) Hmm. Zoey (17:16.649) So in other words, you feel lucky to have them. You put in effort and it sparks something within you. So then you have this whole ecosystem of what you wanna call love, whether it's your brain neurons or spirituality or two people's essences matching, right? Their emotional makeup matching, right? and then their values matching because then you need to have lifestyle compatibility too. And as long as all those things are quote unquote matching, then your body's hormones will activate. Oxytocin will activate, dopamine will activate, serotonin, the whole shebang. And body will say that one, that's the one I want, right? So it's just an ecosystem of various channels, various ways that, you know, Utkarsh Narang (17:57.709) Mmm. Yeah. Zoey (18:11.499) that we connect with other people. It's not just one thing, it's such a nuanced concept. Utkarsh Narang (18:18.029) Hmm. Hmm. So let's, let's get into this because I'm intrigued. It seems that love is, what, what, how I have perceived love to be. It's a feeling it's, it's energy. And I always thought like, it's really, it's almost impossible to calculate love till I met you. So I to understand what, what does it mean? Like, how do you really calculate love if, if the listeners are listening to this right now? And maybe they are partners. Maybe they are. Yeah. Zoey (18:38.411) Mm-hmm. Sure. Utkarsh Narang (18:48.097) planning to find a partner, what can we give them? What's the framework looking like? Zoey (18:50.269) Mm-hmm. Okay. Okay. So you cannot fall in love with someone unless that partner is a match. The question becomes, how do you measure a match? Okay. So this is a very primal instinct that I talked about earlier. Humans are inherently wired to get turned off by people they think are less than them. Okay. Once again, the question becomes, how do you measure someone who's a match, who's better than you, or who's less than you. It starts with values. And it starts with how you feel about yourself and how well you fit your own standards, which is called a self score. Okay? Because we're comparing two scores here. We're going to compare your score and the partner score. Your score is called the self score. And the way you evaluate that is by identifying your top five values, top 10 values, whatever you like. Values can be things like family, like career, like finance, like image, like fashion sense, like purpose, communications on manners, dependability. There's a whole list of values, right? Just make sure you're picking the ones that are just so, so important to you. Next, you're going to ask yourself how well you feel you show up for each of these values. So even if your value, for example, is education, you might think that you suck. So what's gonna happen if you think that you suck? Your self-worth is going to dip, or it not? So with that, with the top five values that you have, when you score yourself against each one, you tally up that score. That score is a self score and it's a numerical assessment of your self-worth and your self-love, okay? Now, imagine I give myself an 80 % self score. Utkarsh Narang (20:18.935) Hmm. Zoey (20:46.927) I will only be willing to connect with someone who's either matching the 80 % or exceeding the 80%. The magic number here is plus 4%. That's what we found from the analytics for people who are currently together. Okay. So what we also found was when the partner score was minus 5%, so just 5 % below them. Sounds like a match, but it wasn't because the analytics showed that these people were in an on and off relationship, i.e. they were not fulfilled, i.e. they did not put their best foot forward, i.e. someone got lazy in the relationship and then it became on and off, okay? So you're looking for a match but even better is when the partner score is slightly above you. So although you measure yourself on just values, you're going to measure your partner on values and traits. because you have to measure attraction, compatibility is not enough. Traits are the essence of the person. It's what they inherently are. It's those things that you cannot necessarily change about a person, right? This can be like cultural background, like skin color, right? It can be humor, it can be intelligence, it could be generosity, it could be emotional intelligence as well. These are things that someone can work on, but it's still something that's very much inherent within you. So if you... Enjoy humor. If you decide that, I like dating younger, I like dating older. If you decide that you really want someone who's intelligent because it just sparks you, it gives you, you're drawn to them, right? You're going to pick your top five traits and then you're gonna measure your partner against each one. Okay, so then you have a partner traits score. So you average out the partner values score with the partner traits score. Utkarsh Narang (22:27.415) Mm. Utkarsh Narang (22:41.506) Mm-hmm. Zoey (22:41.909) You average that out. if you're an 80 % and although your partner was an 80 % values, but they're a 70 % traits, their average comes out to what 75? Guess what? The analytics are showing that you will be willing to engage in a relationship, but you're not going to be fully fulfilled and you probably will get lazy eventually. And if you get lazy, trust that they will get lazy too. And if they get lazy, then you're like, well, I wasn't fulfilled to begin with, so why am I in this? On and off. Boom. There you go. Utkarsh Narang (23:16.077) Fascinating. Fascinating. So here's where I am. So I'm seeing the self score is on the values. So I select my five or 10 values, whatever that looks like. I do a self score on how I show up on each of those values. So that's my score. Assuming it's 80%. Then I find women and ask them to take the score. Zoey (23:28.068) Yeah. Zoey (23:33.951) Yes. Utkarsh Narang (23:41.985) which will be fascinating in this world of Tinder and Bumble and all of that to have them take a score. So they take a score on values and traits. Okay. I score them. Wow. Zoey (23:50.133) hold on one second, you scored them, you scored them. And they're gonna have their own set of values. There may be overlap, there likely will be overlap to be honest, but it may not necessarily look like yours. The goal here is for you to find a partner who's just slightly above you and also for that partner to think the same, that you're slightly above them. For two people to feel lucky, Utkarsh Narang (24:00.046) Hmm. Yes. Utkarsh Narang (24:16.909) Hmm. Zoey (24:19.573) to have each other because you know what happens? Then when you get into a disagreement, you respect the other person so much and you care about them and you care about not losing them. Therefore, you put your best foot forward, right? You become more dependable. You become a rock. It inspires you to be gentle, to be kind, to be generous, all those great things about being a human, a good human. That person If you feel lucky to have them, they will inspire you to do that. What that means is you're not gonna feel controlled. You're not gonna feel obligated. You're gonna want to. It's gonna come from a part within you to say, this person just had a flat tire. I'm gonna go drive to her and make sure she's okay. I'll just, you know, even if she doesn't need me, I'm gonna go be her rock. And that's something that you're not gonna feel obligated. You're literally going to enjoy doing it. You're gonna enjoy. So that's the whole point. Love can be calculated. Is it spiritual? Maybe, but it's also a calculation. Utkarsh Narang (25:15.991) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (25:21.035) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It'll be, it'll Yeah. Correct. And it'll be such a beautiful stage to be right when you're not obligated to drive to someone just because you have to, but it's like you want to. And so you're saying the self score. Here's a challenge that's coming up for me. So I love the framework. I'm, I'm moving to the side where I'm agreeing that love can actually be calculated. The challenge I see Zoey and help me grapple through that. And I love to play like the devil's advocate in these conversations. Zoey (25:56.971) Please do, I love it, I love it. We're good, we're good, enjoy. Utkarsh Narang (25:59.116) Amazing. Amazing. so what if there is someone who is really good at presenting themselves as a certain way, right? They're not authentic. Yeah, they're not being true to who they are, but making me perceive like they are the right person for me. Then what? Zoey (26:21.963) I have a whole chapter on that. yeah, I see, I cover all grounds. It took me a long time to develop this. And every time I heard a challenge, I'm like, nope, I got this. So there's a chapter on that. I have a section in the book called distortions. What happens when numbers and scores get distorted? There's about 10 different distortions that I identified. One of them was actually the deceiver. Utkarsh Narang (26:23.743) Oof, love it. You preempted it. Yeah, yeah. Utkarsh Narang (26:43.869) you Zoey (26:48.267) There's the low level deceiver, the mid level deceiver and the high level deceiver. The low level deceiver will essentially... withhold information, right? The mid-level deceiver will be vague and insinuate something that's not true, whereas the high-level deceiver will straight-up lie. Okay, here's the thing though, in that chapter I say the truth will always come out, always, always, always. Whatever image you're trying to show, if you're trying to convince the other person that you're super educated with a PhD, clearly that person will learn the truth. Same thing can be said for finances, for family values, for purpose. The truth would always come out. And the goal with this chapter is essentially to say, if that's a value, all you need to do is be solid with how you feel you show up. It's all about perception. Everything here is not grounded in reality. It's all relative and it's all based on your perception. It's all based on your happy. Utkarsh Narang (27:47.277) you Zoey (27:55.699) neurochemicals that feel confident your serotonin is running your dopamine the whole shebang right so all to say let's assume that you're going on a date and you know this person is a doctor or a phd or whatever okay so you've already clocked that they probably hold education as a high value is it necessary for you to show up on that date and say the same i'm a phd too could do that, but it's not you're going to shoot yourself in the foot. Instead, what you should do is talk about or at least express that you listen to podcasts that you know a lot about world politics or about what education is not one thing. And that authenticity is more important because it'll show in your body language when you're solid with who you are, solid with how you show up as a human, solid with your definition. of these values regardless of their definition, you are more likely to be a magnet to love and a magnet to respect. Utkarsh Narang (29:04.139) I love that statement. When you're solid with who you are, that's when you become a magnet to attract the right person into your life. Zoey (29:12.127) Yes, and gain their respect. And the goal is for them to think that they're lucky to have you. You're not gonna do that by lying. You're gonna lose their respect. So the way to do that is to be sure about who you are, to feel confident. Just because you're comparing apples to apples, like education degree to education, whatever. There's so many different ways to feel educated and... Utkarsh Narang (29:15.69) and gender. Utkarsh Narang (29:20.813) Hmm. Zoey (29:41.203) Make sure before you go on that date that you prep yourself and you coach yourself and remind yourself that you are indeed educated. That's just an example, obviously, right? There's so many other values, right? But yeah. Utkarsh Narang (29:47.085) Mmm. Utkarsh Narang (29:51.17) Yeah, correct. Yeah. Yeah, they could be sports, right? There could be so many things that if you're interested with them or if someone else is a sports person, then you would want to research about that sports because maybe it's important to them and that's where they are the sports person. So I'm with you. Here's the next challenge. so maybe before I move to that, what are some other distortions? Because I love this idea of how a deceiver can distort the Zoey (30:10.291) Okay, tell me. Utkarsh Narang (30:19.59) experience, right? What other distortions did you examine? Zoey (30:20.392) Of course, yep. Yeah, the infatuation distortion is one of my favorite ones because I feel like it's very relatable. remember I said the perfect relationship is when you view your partner as four percent above you because there's admiration and you feel lucky. OK, well, what happens when you think they're 10, 20, 15 or 10, 15, 20 percent above you? That's not healthy, is it? That's where worship comes in. That's where self-sacrificing, overgiving, over forgiving. How can I be there for you? Let me abandon myself so that I can. Utkarsh Narang (30:43.145) ooooh, love that Zoey (30:53.471) blah, blah, blah, blah, right? Be very careful with that distortion. This is a big pitfall, I think, that a lot of us go through, to be honest, but hopefully we outgrow that at some point, right? But it is a distortion and some people don't actually outgrow it because they're addicted to the dopamine hit. They're addicted to that spark. They're addicted to feeling desired by someone they think and their mind is so much above them. Utkarsh Narang (31:05.133) Yeah. Zoey (31:21.099) And that's not conducive to a healthy relationship. There is another one that I feel sorry to interrupt. Very briefly, there's another one that I feel is so important to recognize. And this is the dynamic between a self-sacrificer and a self-focused. The self-sacrificer will say, I will abandon my values and working on my values, whether it's family, purpose, whatever else, so that I can help you build your score. So if your top five value is career, let me just Forget about my work, forget about my family. How can I help you attain that thing that you want? Look, if it comes from a place of being a rock and being supportive, I'm all for it. Not to the extent where you're abandoning yourself, because remember, inherently, if you're not working on yourself and you have a low self score, you're putting it in their minds that they're better than you. Inherently, they will become turned off. as much as you feel like you're going in with a good heart, with a pure heart, if you're overly generous and you're not doing it from a place of being solid and a rock, and you're doing it from a place of fearing to lose the other person or wanting to fix the other person or your own unhealed patterns are coming out from whatever dysfunction you've experienced in the past, we've all been there, right? They're going to completely anchor you and your self score. while you're boosting their score. And then when their score is boosted, guess what? They're not gonna feel fulfilled. Then you're gonna run into an on and off relationship, mutual breakup, and then they're gonna look for someone better. Because they think they're better. Utkarsh Narang (33:08.749) So the score is a dynamic value. then the next challenge that comes to mind is for relationships that sustain over a period, say 20 years, if we were to look at those relationships, what would your hypothesis prediction data tell you? Like, do their scores stay in the same range? Do their score vary differently? What happens to their scores over time if they're staying in a fulfilled relationship? Let's assume that. Zoey (33:19.593) Okay. Zoey (33:38.155) Yeah, mean, people are very dynamic and they change a lot. In fact, I heard one person say that her husband, so they had been married for 30 years and her husband said that he's had five wives during the 30 years. In other words, she changed five times. She became a new person five times. I know, right? I thought the same thing, but exactly. I know. I'm like, oh shoot. Wait, what? Wait. But no. Utkarsh Narang (34:00.718) I need to meet that man. What is he up to? Zoey (34:08.571) But I agree with that. I agree with that. think that we all transition. The question is, do you transition and shift and grow together or do you grow apart? So there's another chapter about this actually in my book. And it's a case study about two people who have been together for 10 years. In the beginning, they were a match, matching values, matching traits, fully in love. Okay. Over time, with kids, with experience, She changed, but he stayed so in love with her. And if anything, the longer he was with her, the more her score went up because he, for whatever, he just saw her as a mom and saw just how beautiful she is and saw her thrive in her career and whatever those values were, and he was just in awe. Whereas with her, as she became a mom and as she started thriving in her career, and everything else that comes with that, she realized that she was outgrowing his pace, the relationship, and also outgrowing his essence. Her trait preferences had changed over time. So with that, 10 years in, she broke up with him while he was still madly in love. And I felt the need to add this case study in the book because It's so relevant. I mean, why is it that two people can be so madly in love with each other and then break up and one person's like, what happened? And they feel so blindsided. Maybe not blindsided, hopefully the signs were there, right? But they just wish it could go back to what it was. And the reality is that people grow. So a positive thing with this framework is that you can check in with your partner every once in a while. share your values, share where you feel you stand in your own values, but also share where you feel your partner might be falling short. You know, I'm married and within our first year, things got hard and we did the formula together and he felt that, you know, my communication style and manners just was not where it used to be. Yeah, he's right. It's true. Zoey (36:38.077) I felt that he could be a better rock. And I felt like that dependability aspect that I fell in love with in the first place, one of the things amongst many things that I fell in love with kind of disappeared. So rather than playing this blame game on who did what, we're like, okay, so we just chill out with your communication, just be calmer, be more gentle. And, you know, husband, let's work on this, you know. Utkarsh Narang (37:06.817) Mm. Zoey (37:07.453) So we need the support after a tough day or whatever it may be, just be there, right? So that was one way that we could communicate using the framework. Utkarsh Narang (37:10.125) amazing. Utkarsh Narang (37:17.857) Love it, love it. One thought that's emerging and throughout your sharing, you've spoken multiple times that it starts with self, it starts with self, your own self, love your own self, how you understand your own values and perceive them is seeming like the foundation. Can you share more on that? Zoey (37:41.523) Yeah, absolutely. So one thing I didn't realize would come out from this whole framework is that I validated the cliche that you can't love someone else unless you love yourself. The analytics showed that the people who are currently together had a strong self score. If you have a low self score, you're likely going to not be in a sustainable relationship. Utkarsh Narang (37:53.569) Hmm. Zoey (38:08.093) So when, okay, if you feel like you're not finding the right person, if you feel like your relationship is extremely unfulfilling and you're just miserable, if you feel like you can't get over a breakup, it actually has got nothing to do with the other person yet. The first step comes down to the self score. If you have a low self score, Don't expect anything from anyone else. Just don't. Don't expect you to feel healed. Don't expect you to find the right person. Don't expect that you and your partner will come into alignment. You are not even in a position where you're lucky to have yourself. Why would anyone else feel lucky to have you? And I don't mean to sound harsh. We've all been there. But you have to feel lucky in terms of how you show up as a human. And you have to feel confident. And once you do, believe me, your standards will be good and positive and solid, then you'll be in a position to ask your partner to step up. Then you'll be in that position. Then you'll be in a position to finally shed that relationship that no longer served you, that was just anchoring you down. And now you're looping in your mind, why didn't they love me? If you're not lucky to, if you don't feel lucky to have yourself, they're not going to feel lucky to have you. It's just... the bottom line, then that's what the analytics showed, Utkarsh Narang (39:41.602) such a powerful statement. How does one evolve on that journey? Because to be feeling and seeing yourself as lucky to have you in your life is a massive shift. And there would be someone who's listening to this right now, who's feeling like, who's not even aware, who's not even thinking about self-love at all. So where do they start their journey? Zoey (40:07.451) Mm Well, it starts with the self score. First, identify your top five values and ask yourself whether those are conducive to healthy emotions and a healthy relationship. If your top five values is all material, all financial, all education, all career. I'm not saying those are bad things. You need those to survive and to feel some sort of purpose. Like I get that and to feel free and enjoy your life. But that's that can't be the end all be all. If you're not putting purpose as a top five value. which is a natural medicine by the way. If you're not putting dependability and reliability, if you're not putting communication style and manners, you're not likely going to get into a relationship that's sustainable. So first things first, identify what your values are. For me, I expanded my top five values to top 10 just recently. And for those top 10, I added peace of mind because I realized I really enjoy my peace of mind. Right? And I work hard on my piece of mind, the way. I'm very mindful of the things that I do to enhance my peace of mind. Why would I invite someone in my life that anchors my peace of mind? Hence, that is now my value. Right? So it does come down to you. If you at this moment don't feel lucky to have yourself, you're not stuck here. Okay? First, identify your top five or top 10 values. Next, grade yourself or each one. Ask yourself, are you being hard on yourself anywhere? If, let's say, family. Family is a top five value. And let's say you're a wonderful son, wonderful daughter, wonderful sibling, but you feel a little guilty because sometimes they make you feel a little guilty for not going to dinner with them. Sometimes it happens. Okay, that's what that means for But can you have some self awareness and be confident in yourself that you are in fact showing up as a good family member and you are in fact Kind and a rock and solid and supportive and by the way if you feel like you can't convince yourself of this Because you simply don't think that you are work on that It's literally as simple as pick up the phone text your brother or sister. Hey thinking of you Zoey (42:34.367) That's it. You know, then take a little step further if you want, right? Whatever you feel it takes to boost that score within that category, do it. First, ask yourself if you're hard on yourself, change that perception if necessary. Next, if you feel like, this is pretty accurate, I kind of suck here, work on that, work on that. The more you do that and the more you pepper in wins in your life for all of these values and trust. Utkarsh Narang (42:53.549) Yeah, love it. Zoey (43:04.201) that you're gonna come to a place where you're like, you know what, I'm pretty, pretty fricking solid. And as I'm solid, whoever wants to enter my life romantically, I would hope that they're solid too. And I want to be lucky to have them because I feel lucky to have myself right now. Utkarsh Narang (43:17.388) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (43:22.439) powerful statement that's such a powerful statement Those who were listening to us for the last whatever 45 minutes, I think what it comes down to is that the work starts with you. You have to put in the work in your own self to build anything on the outside and that outside could be a relationship, that outside could be the career, the life, whatever you're trying to build. And Zoey, the way you've helped us understand that love actually can be calculated and we'll put all the links in the show notes for people to take the scores. read the book and all of that. But I want to, as this journey continues and as you go deeper and deeper into calculating love for self and others, Zoey, if now we go from that eight-year-old who started a little bit confused, what's happening, understanding the limitlessness of the cosmos, and we go to that 80-year-old in the future, a few decades from now, if that 80-year-old comes back to you right now in this moment, what would her advice to you be? Zoey (44:14.175) and hope that in the future. Zoey (44:27.751) Advice? would be just follow your heart. Continue to follow your heart. Continue to grow. Continue to just send a ripple effect and wave of love because people need it. Then continue to just pursue your purpose. Don't worry about where anything is gonna land. Who knows? And just the way I would tell my eight-year-old self, I would assume that the 80-year-old would tell me, have no idea. You don't even know what's in store. Utkarsh Narang (45:10.061) It's so beautiful. And I love the silence that comes after. Zoey (45:11.295) Hmm. Zoey (45:16.095) Yeah, it's deep. It's a deep question. It's a deep question because 80 that's nearing the end of your life and you look back and honestly, when I look back, like, my life was really hard at first really hard. I'm so fortunate and so lucky that I grasp the formula of the cosmos in terms of how to manifest. And besides that, also the self score if it I was in my rock bottom five years ago and funny enough I was writing the book and I'm like let me apply my own theory. If it wasn't for this, I don't know that my life would turn out the way that it has. And every year it's like because I keep working on my self score from a place of self love not from a place of self criticism and that's another very important distinction by the way for anyone doing this. I just find that My days are so fulfilled. Because I've identified what makes me happy and what I respect. And then I do things that give me reason to have self-respect. Utkarsh Narang (46:27.885) Each word of what you're saying is true and mirror neurons are getting fired. To anyone who's listening, be true to yourself, to your soul, to your identity. Your soul has a bigger purpose and it is our purpose to find that purpose or build that purpose, whatever that looks like. There will be people who will be vibrating. Zoey (46:28.875) Mm. Zoey (46:34.441) hahahaha Utkarsh Narang (46:54.027) at the same frequency as you are. And that's the higher level of love that Zoey and I spoke about. And the work starts with you. Identify what your values are, give yourself a self score, work on yourself so that when you go out in the world, you can tell the world that you're so lucky to have yourself, that who is gonna come in your life in whatever ways, they'll be lucky to have you and you'll be lucky to have them. Zoey (47:01.355) Mm-hmm. Zoey (47:12.149) that. Zoey (47:17.899) Mm-hmm. There you go. Utkarsh Narang (47:21.943) We'll put all the links in the show notes. You can find more about Zoey. We're all on the internet, so we'll do all of the things that are important. But Zoey, it was such a pleasure to have this conversation with you and to speak about so many larger ideas and still keep it so real, it felt. Zoey (47:42.101) Thank you so much, thank you. It's a fine violence, right? Because we're talking about analytics, it's, but love is so spiritual as well. It's just, it's tough to define. It's very nuanced, but I appreciate that. Utkarsh Narang (47:50.348) it is. Utkarsh Narang (47:53.984) It is absolutely. Thank you for this time. When we do Namaste in India, this thought is coming to me that the divine in me bows to the divine in you. And so thank you for this time. Look forward to seeing and for those who listening to this on a podcast platform, please share this with someone who might enjoy this. if on YouTube, just comment. We're not we're not Diary of the Sea or yet you've spent 49 minutes to listen to this podcast and conversation between Zoey and myself. Let us know in the comments guys that you're here. Comment love and we'll respond with something. Thank you for all the beautiful things that you shared. Zoey (48:32.875) Thank you. Thank you so much for having me.