Utkarsh Narang (00:01.366) In a world that celebrates performative success, in a world that celebrates the accolades that you get on the outside, it's very hard and rare to choose personal truth, to choose alignment. But today I have Zerina with me, who's gone from that world of corporate to come to coaching. And in our conversation today, we'll speak about what it means to hopefully shift identities. What is the fear that holds us back? And if we take the right steps. than what is on the other side. So you know, welcome to the conversation. Zerina Derveni (00:34.416) Thank you for having me. I'm excited to talk about all those topics. Utkarsh Narang (00:39.37) Absolutely. I think I was reflecting we are at episode 46, I think, or 47 right now. And I was reflecting that wherever the conversation starts and whoever we speak with, there are certain universal truths of life that come up again and again. And my assumption is that we'll get there today as well. But when we start the podcast, we put the guest into the deep end because we want the listeners to really know who Zerina was. So my first question, Zerina, is that If that 8 year old little girl, Zerina at 8 years, growing wherever she was, if that little girl were to come and meet you right now, what kind of a conversation would emerge between the two of you? Zerina Derveni (01:21.818) I think she would be very proud of the growth and... the messiness that took, you know, for me to get to this growth. That eight year old girl was probably fearful. She was probably, you know, living in chaos as I think most of our generation that age was, right? We didn't really, our parents are busy working. We didn't really have that security or structure, maybe safety that kids have now, but there was this sense of chaos and is everything gonna be okay? So she was to see me. now, I think she would see this woman that she can only at that age imagine would be for me her idol actually coming into fruition. So I think she would be very proud and she would feel this sense of peace and safety. Utkarsh Narang (02:18.072) That's so beautiful. I love this sense of peace and safety. What is it that from that eight year old that you think you're still carrying with you? Zerina Derveni (02:29.402) I think there is this sense of survival, I'll be honest, and not necessarily like survival can mean different tiers to everybody based on their lifestyle, but the sense of survival of just what's gonna happen, keep going, this uncertainty, this gotta do better, this pressure, this fear and pressure combined. that we put on ourselves based on whether it's culturally, whether it's upbringing, whether it's, you know, family and environment dynamics. I think that sticks with you for a very long time and you think that's the way you operate. And one of the most beautiful things about becoming a life coach is I had to go through my own self-discovery journey. And we'll talk a little bit later more about the frameworks of that. But really, had you had told me I was in survival mode, I would not have believed you and I was someone who was very into personal development and read all the books, but I would have not associated myself into that framework as survival mode. But now looking back and knowing what I know and going through all, you know, challenges and things in life, I was operating from that and I think it to me I was doing the best that I could but now it's just really shifted to a more peaceful and actual like internal alignment of what it is I want to attract in life. Utkarsh Narang (03:57.174) It's very interesting you're bringing these two words fear and pressure together because I've been reflecting for the last week and you know the podcast is just like a it's a beautiful medium for me to have a sounding board run these ideas and see how they stick or not. So this fear and pressure one could be really purposeful about what we are doing Zerina but it feels that if we don't put a little bit of that pressure on us a little bit of that fear of how you want to raise the game maybe Zerina Derveni (04:22.236) Mm-hmm. Utkarsh Narang (04:25.941) next week, next month, next year, then how does one grow? So what I'm trying to say is that the fear and the pressure has a very positive influence as well. How do you feel about that? Zerina Derveni (04:37.018) Yeah, I think... No, and I agree and actually a lot of my clients, so I coach women and a lot of my clients are high achievers and they're all over thinkers and anxious, but that's what's made them successful in life. So it's not about removing those feelings. Those are a part of you, a part of your identity and a lot of it honestly a part of your subconscious brain. It's about allowing that to come from a place of more opportunities versus this fear where you get so hard. yourself and you're operating in the survival mode. So for example, I'm someone who's more anxious, right? And when my anxiety pops up, I don't want it to pop up like, oh my god, how am going to do this? How am going to do that? I want it to pop up like, oh, I need to get this done. This is very important. This is a priority. So I want that anxiety to give me a boost. I want that fear to give me a boost. want that even competitive side to give me a boost. I don't want it to drag me down. And I think you have to understand the between the two because sometimes we can allow that to really you know drag us down and especially if we get into like comparison and like we're not doing enough it's like make it relative to you and make it work for you versus the other way around I think would be the the differences but I agree with you I think it always sticks with you and it's learning how to work with that with those dynamics are in your favor versus against you Utkarsh Narang (06:07.335) Yeah, so rather than making those fears and pressure paralyze you, what you're saying is like, be aware and let them pop up and say, Utkarsh, Zerina, you got to do this. So go do this. that's the, so you're moving away from survival mode to what mode? Zerina Derveni (06:25.126) thriving, right? It's so interesting. So in my life... Utkarsh Narang (06:26.285) you Zerina Derveni (06:31.052) I have noticed my dynamic and we all have our dynamic. I'm not saying this is the one fit for all, but I have noticed there has been moments in my life where I've just been very happy for no reason, which is great, right? No specific reason. I was very happy. Things were working for me as well, right? So I think that's also important because that's not a reality for everyone, but I was able to attract so much more. opportunities, I was just more peaceful, I was happier, there was this energy around me where things were just, you know, working for me. And I think it really had to do with my state of being and my state of, of attracting the energy around me. Now, I've also had moments in life like we all do. And I think a lot of people are still struggling after COVID. It's been a very hard time for a lot of people and it still is. And financially, I think it's, you know, been really hard. Now it's like, you know, operating from a fear mode, even when I started my coaching business, it wasn't attracting me the opportunities I wanted because I think, you know, I was coming from this mindset of like, am I going to do this? Is this going to be enough? The pressure to perform or pressure for results is great, but not when it's not when it's going to affect how you perform, right? So I think there is this understanding you have to have with yourself. You got to negotiate with yourself really because our brain is so smart. It's understanding how you're presenting yourself, how you're treating yourself and what you're feeding your mind is going to really be what's going to help you attract around you and that fear can sometimes you know not really value your character and your true attributes. It can you know kind of like make you shy away from your true strengths. because you're just overthinking too much. Utkarsh Narang (08:33.613) Yeah, I love that. And it's very powerful that you don't let that pressure to perform. It should not paralyze you. It should allow you to actually thrive and move forward and take those steps. And we'll speak about that. When we were doing our pre conversation, I remember you telling me there was this moment that shifted the orbit, so to say, for you, that you were moving in a singular orbit. And then I think it was the Tony Robbins event that shifted things. Tell me more about that because I'm a firm believer that it can for some people be like a switch on switch off button that the orbit shifts in one minute and for others it could be a really slow and painful and grueling journey and each one has their own path but how is that experience for you? What shifted? Zerina Derveni (09:12.474) Mm-hmm. Zerina Derveni (09:21.392) Yeah, no, this is, I love this question. So I think in my earlier years, even younger, like very younger, I was someone who had a lot of wisdom and I was very intuitive. So I would feel things, know, people's pain and I would just see things from a place of wisdom that I did not understand. So as I was getting older and the people around me, you know, it became very like practical, black and white, you know, just do what you need to do, don't overthink it. you're thinking into things too much or you care too much. So you know all those things that I heard I think it started to shape me in my young adulthood to just be this, I mean I got into corporate but just be this corporate you know business person, think of everything as black and white, don't be too emotional and just move on with life. So I did that for a decade and I did really well in corporate and I worked for you know three global companies as an executive and loved it but I felt so unfulfilled. I would sometimes go home and think, this it? Is this what my life's purpose is gonna be? And when you share that to someone who is maybe struggling or thinks that your life is so great, they put into perspective to you, you're overthinking it. Just be proud and be grateful and just appreciate what you have. So you hear a lot of that, but I think deep down that inner purpose was really speaking to me. shutting it down for so long so it would come up in moments and finally I got tired of it and I said no like it's not my environment it's not the people it's me that needs to really you know do some changing and do the work so at that time just I guess you know talk about the universe being there at the right time but I saw this Tony Robbins it was Date with Destiny was a six-day full full six-day intense workshop and I thought should I do it? And something in me said, yes, do it. And I went in more from curiosity and kind of this uncertainty. Utkarsh Narang (11:24.525) you Zerina Derveni (11:26.434) And I truly saw breakthroughs from people happening live. And I think that to me was a big eye opener of understanding how powerful, you know, that alignment once we reach it as a human being, how powerful that can be and how breakthroughs are very real and how it can transform your life, you know, for the better for you to get clarity. So that was very powerful for me. And I did that not even knowing I was going to be a life coach. So that wasn't like I did that and I decided to follow Tony Robbins footsteps. But you know, I really got into personal development and I started seeing coaches and started just, you know, listening to a lot of podcasts and I had my aha moment at that time where I was like, I really want to help other women who've gone through similar journey as me and get them to a place of self discovery where they are in a much better place if they know who they are and what they want and their greater purpose. Utkarsh Narang (12:26.733) Yeah. There's so many dots that are connecting for me right now as you're saying that because just this almost like a revelation, right? That it is not the environment, it is not people around me, it is not the company, it is me who needs to change. I think that that's such a powerful shift of thinking because you're putting that, you're putting the onus of change not on others, but on yourself, which is just a powerful place to start with. And with Tony Robbins, and I've never been in a physical space with him or his work, but even just watching him virtually and seeing him take people through those shifts is, I was getting goosebumps thinking about that as well. Now you help women, right? So help me understand. Someone, and being a coach, I'm coming in from the listener's perspective. So putting myself in the shoes of listener and thinking like what they would be thinking 10, 12 minutes into this conversation. So anyone who's a high achiever. It seems to me that they have all the logic, they have all the understanding, they have the tools to shift their thinking to they're solving the biggest problems, they're managing million, billion dollar P &Ls. Then why are they feeling this sense of being stuck, this sense of being empty? What's happening there? Zerina Derveni (13:45.221) Yeah, so usually exactly usually you're feeling either lost, stuck, empty, right? And a lot of times when you get there, it's because you don't know what you want and you don't know how to move forward. Those seem to be two common challenges that I find when I'm having my discussions with clients at the very early stages. So they feel stuck. Now you can feel stuck or lost because you are uncertain. You can feel stuck or lost because of just your environment and people's voices have gotten to you. But there is a sense of uncertainty and I don't know how to move forward. Now let's talk about clarity, right? And with clarity, the moment you have clarity as a person, and this is for men and women, you just move forward. You don't care what anybody says. You have a path forward. But when you're stuck, right? And when you're feeling lost, you cannot see that path. So you're just at that point looking for an outlet or looking for a path that seems the most visible. speaking to someone like a coach is actually great because the one thing with coaches that we do that we do very well is we focus on the present and we focus on getting you to the next day. the near future versus, know, I also am a big advocate for therapy, but therapy focuses a lot on the past, right? So a coach will help you get unstuck. You have someone who is completely unbiased, completely logical, can pick up on key words that you're struggling with to help you get to the next stage. And I have to say, 90 % of my clients who come to me for a certain reason why they feel lost or stuck, I'm sorry, and the solution they have at that moment that they want to work on. Zerina Derveni (15:32.987) The outcome is never that original solution. The outcome ends up being something greater and bigger that they could not see at that time. So when you're in those moments, your tunnel vision, I think a lot of us are in survival mode and we cannot see that clearly far out. So having someone who you respect and someone who you trust to guide you through that is very important. But yeah, think, you know, getting back to those are usually the two key areas. the women I coach, I'm a life coach and I coach women both on personal and professional because they are very interconnected. It's always that one area in their life that they're struggling with. It's never both. It's very interesting. It's the one area they're struggling with. So we focus on that. Utkarsh Narang (16:21.695) What are the symptoms, Zerina? Because I want to like, and I understand people don't know what they want or don't know what they want to do. Like they're stuck. But these words lost, stuck, empty, they they have resonance with both of us, right? Or with anyone else who's a coach and they're listening and they know that, you feel this way, but you can feel the right opposite as well. But someone who's sitting on the couch, on the treadmill and listening to this, what are some symptoms that a high achiever should be looking for, which are like the quiet signals that they're winning on paper, but they're possibly winning in life yet. Zerina Derveni (17:00.816) Yeah, you're doing the same thing over and over again. You're losing that joy, that fulfillment. You're questioning a lot of things like in life and listen, you're gonna have days where your days are not that great. You're not gonna be fulfilled. You're not gonna be like, I'm living my purpose today. However, however, if you're not getting up in the morning, and have a good understanding of what your priorities are. And in your gut, it's getting you happy and excited. Maybe you're still tired, but you know what you need to do. Then you're living a life of more clarity, right? Let's start there, clarity. Now, a lot of us are excellent avoiders and we will keep doing the same thing over and over again. We'll have our logic tell us that what we're doing is good, it's good enough for now, we should be proud. But there is this missile. alignment. So in your gut, You know, you're not feeling this expansion. You're feeling this kind of tightness. And I think that's a really good sign that you're not necessarily living your truth in a sense of your potential, whatever that is, right? And, you know, it's so interesting because a lot of my conversations with clients, they think that living a fulfilling life or living a life of more expansion or excitement means doing more. It actually doesn't. It actually means getting way more focused, saving your Utkarsh Narang (18:08.653) Hmm. Zerina Derveni (18:29.214) energy efficiency, living your truth. Like, why am I doing A, B, and C if I really just want to do D? Right? So it's really, you know, learning a lot of old habits, getting clear on what you want. And you don't get to clarity by thinking. Like, you can speak to the most intelligent person on earth. They will not give you clarity. They'll give you analytical thinking that's pretty good. But you get to clarity by experience, by engagement. So there is this push So actually go out there and figure it out if you're not sure. Or even if you have a curiosity, go out there and just do it because you will get one step closer to clarity. Utkarsh Narang (19:08.545) Yeah, I love that. I love this, this sense, right, that that you're feeling a tightness in the gut instead of the expansion. And I think whoever is listening, would somewhere deeply resonate with that. And I think it takes a lot of honesty with yourself to start with, to really acknowledge that there is this tightness that you're sensing, because so many times society, our peers, the next door neighbor, the one who just bought the Tesla, They're putting so much unneeded pressure on us and asking us to do certain things that we might not want. And what you just said, the A, B, C and D, you want to focus on D, but society has so beautifully trained you and conditioned you to look at A, C that it's simply impossible to get to D. Where does one start? Where does one start? What do you do with them that helps them create this acknowledgement slash awareness that there's something missing. Zerina Derveni (20:11.608) I think we start, you know, we start with the self worth and I think it's not an easy topic but we start with really with understanding what real self worth is and somebody who's got a healthy relationship with themselves and an understanding of their own self worth does not put themselves in situations that are not good for them, right? Now, That doesn't mean that you're in a situation. Let's say you're at a job. You're not very happy, but it's okay. It's decent, right? Not to say that your self-worth is being jeopardized, but are you really living your true self-worth, right? So it's having those conversations with yourself and it's okay to have a normal life. It's okay to have like it's not for everybody. This is for those listeners who actually want to do something that that is meaningful for them. It's really having that understanding of like, okay, am I really on honoring my self worth and putting myself in situations, both personally or professionally, that are good for me, that I actually want. Because deep down, if you actually really, really dig deep and ask yourself, is this something that I really want? We are so raw and honest with ourselves that if we listen, we would get that yes or no, right? It's just scary because if you hear a yes or no, and that means you have to change stuff, Change is scary, right? Change is not easy. And I feel like the older you get, more financial responsibilities you have, you don't necessarily have that luxury. But at the same time, are you really living and putting your energy into things that are good for you? Utkarsh Narang (21:56.512) Yeah, it's such a powerful reflection. I'm just connecting the dots with how I've seen my journey wherever there was a sense that what I'm doing is something that I don't want to continue for the rest of my life, then something needs to change. And this one idea that I often talk to my coaches about is that if today were the last day of your life, would you really find joy in what you're doing? And would you really call this life like a life well lived? And I think that just that reflection that death is like right next to both of us right now as we're sitting and talking to each other I think that really helps me create that clarity and I don't know why I'm asking you this but what's your relationship with the idea of death? Zerina Derveni (22:40.7) wow. It's not something I think about and it's not something I fear, which is interesting. However... Utkarsh Narang (22:48.365) Hmm. Zerina Derveni (22:51.12) have also not had someone very close to me die. And I think maybe if I had, I think it would be something more that would impact me in a positive way to understand that time is so valuable. I mean, I understand it logically. I just cannot say I have that experience where I understand it emotionally because I've lost someone very close to me. However, with that said, I think of death also as a way of, you know, when I die, what would I really... Cherish right and you hear this and and I love hearing people talk about This near near-death experience. There are some videos out there where you can talk about I wish I spend more time with family I'm someone who can actually say like I've done everything that I could possibly do To spend time with people that I truly love and my circle is very small, which is why I've been able to do that However, I wish I lived my truth more and I think that's something I'm working on I'm on a journey and and like everything in life, it's ongoing. I don't think, yes, I found my path now. This is what I wanna do in my life. That's great. But I'm still in my journey of living my truth. So I think now the last two, three years where my voice has become much more clear, calmer, but clear. Utkarsh Narang (24:16.141) Mm. Zerina Derveni (24:16.568) I'm starting to finally live my truth and choose things that I really want without feeling guilty or fear that I'm disappointing others. So I think, you know, when I think of death, I just really hope that I get to a point in my life where this becomes more common and I'm stepping more into it as a woman. And that way when it comes to that, I can just at least feel like I've lived a life that's been truer to what I really want or more authentic. Utkarsh Narang (24:47.405) We should take like a 10 second pause on the statement. I wish I lived my truth more. And there would be millions and billions who are right now thinking about this, that are we really living our truth? And it's such a powerful question to ask. But it's the trained identity that comes in the way, right? The influence of the parents of the society where we got our education from, who our peers are. Why do you think shifting identities or shedding something that might not be serving you anymore, why is that so hard? Zerina Derveni (25:27.728) You know. When you look at the subconscious brain, 95 % of our beliefs, our habits, our emotions, our identity framework, it's all up there, right? And a lot of us, a lot of those thoughts, beliefs, habits are maybe from 10 years ago, 15 years ago, who knows? So we're not recycling that because again, every day life is busy, we're moving forward and you know, 5 % of that mindset work is on the mind which we tap more into when it comes to like analytical stuff. So when you look at just the way how our brain is set up, it's not set up to really step back and really ask yourself these questions that are deep, that are a little bit hard and invasive because it requires you to think differently and it requires you to see things that require change. So you know I would have to say in my self-discovery framework there is a component of it, the first one called the awake awakening. And that's when you have that feeling where it's like something is off. I just don't know what it is. When we get to the second one, the second phase, it's called the unlearning. We spend so much time here on just unlearning your subconscious mind and what's really stored there, right? And I think a lot of us, especially, I mean, I can speak on behalf of women. I don't know for men what their main challenge are, but lot of our as women, our self-worth is tied to our involvement with the community, what we're doing for our parents, what we're doing for our spouse, what we're doing for our kids, what we're doing for our friends. We're always last. And it's like, well, how does that work if you want to, you know, really show yourself grace and love and self-worth? And it's, again, unlearning a lot of things that we have stored from years and years ago. And the unlearning is where the messiness is because we know it logically. Like I could Zerina Derveni (27:28.03) tell you right now A, B, and C and you say yes, but tomorrow the moment you deal with something you're going to revert back to old habits. So it's being able to catch that, allow the anxiety and fear to sit and just do that a couple of more times and then you'll feel empowered. So it changed, you know, it does take awareness and a lot of work, but it's possible. Utkarsh Narang (27:31.787) Mmm. Utkarsh Narang (27:50.541) I love that. let's go through the framework. So it's awakening and then the unlearning. What's next? Zerina Derveni (27:58.375) than its exploration. So this is where, know, yes, I got it, I see it, I could see where my blind spots are, I could see where I need to work more on, and then it's like, okay, let's go put this out there, you know, in the universe. And it's never linear, and I always tell my clients, like, don't think you're just gonna go there, you have all this theory, framework, logic, you're gonna go out there and life's gonna go, you linear, it's not, we're gonna go in circles, and I'm gonna be here to guide you through it, because this is just the normal human experience. So it's being able to apply some of the new learnings or the new frameworks that you pick yourself, right? At the end of the day, you're the one that wants to make these changes and you're picking it, you're selecting it. It's going out there in the real world, applying it, learning how that can be applied. Like a really good example here, we all hear boundaries, right? Boundaries are so important. I also think it's something that is... It's like the word authentic boundaries. It's just like what does it really mean? Because if we put if I put boundaries on my work, if I put boundaries on my relationship, I don't think I would have much clients or I don't think I would have a good relationship. Like there has to be a limit to things. So I know what my top three boundaries are just as a human, right? And it's sticking to that versus having this list of 10 or 15 and being rigid because that's not how life works. That's not the human experience. Utkarsh Narang (29:16.054) you Zerina Derveni (29:29.158) getting very focused and knowing what your non-negotiables are versus having this curated list because again, I always tell my clients this, especially when it comes to boundaries, you are not going to really live a good life if you have a list of 15 who no one's going to deal with that. Like sure, great, bye. They're going to close the door on you, right? It's too much restrictions and I think boundaries are very healthy from a sense of self-worth, but the human experience, you've got to be flexible. You've got to be adaptable. Utkarsh Narang (29:46.477) and then. Zerina Derveni (29:58.991) and that's really where the magic happens. Utkarsh Narang (30:02.757) And these boundaries need that attribute, right? They need to be flexible because things can change at any moment. And if you're rigid, and if you're rigid with the boundaries, and as you said, not many clients, not great relationships, not a healthy body, and all of that will be a challenge. So awakening, unlearning, exploration. What's next? Zerina Derveni (30:21.628) Then we go into integration. So this is where we've had a few lessons. We've learned the boundaries one. So the first time with clients, when we set boundaries, we set our value system, we have our priorities, we go out there in the real world and then we actually see which ones are sticking with us. Because anything we get a bit too excited and create this list and think this is what we want, but then we come back and we say, you know what, Serena, I really value connection with people. Utkarsh Narang (30:25.239) Hmm. Zerina Derveni (30:54.952) I think my boundaries is going to be to make sure I'm in a respectful environment and I'm around people who are respectful but like the human experience you're going to have days where you're you know not necessarily disrespectful you're going to be more dismissive avoidant that's okay allow the space because that you're still respecting yourself so it's just really understanding the human experience before we going into integration and choosing those boundaries or values or beliefs that are very important to you because you've had time to experience it in the real world. Utkarsh Narang (31:28.973) On this human experience, know, I was thinking about this this morning. there are so many variables that we have to manage, right? From our health to wealth to relationships to our work, to our identities, to this inner work, to do the meditation for mental health too. Like I was feeling a sense of being overwhelmed. And then I realized in that moment that progress is so different for each one of us. And sometimes what the brain does, and I'd love your inputs on that, Zerina. For example, I'm building a podcast, right? Then all I'm comparing myself to is Steven Bartlett, Jay Shetty, Joe Rogan, and that's who I want to be. I am building a coaching practice and then all I'm looking at is like, when will I be like Tony Robbins? When will I like Jay Shetty's coaching? So we end up, think, building a physical health and you look at like the epitome, like when do you have six pack abs and all of that. But I think the brain tricks us into comparing ourselves to some future person who is in a very different state instead of saying that Zerina Derveni (32:07.184) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (32:32.693) Utkash, how were you last month, last year and how much progress have you made? Why is this so hard, this juggling between comparing yourself to someone else to comparing yourself to just you? Zerina Derveni (32:46.03) Yeah, you know, it's gosh, I struggle with this too. So I appreciate you being so honest and sharing that because I think anybody who values success, who values even growth, right, it's beyond just success, but values growth. also goes to the same kind of experience. Here's what I've learned in my journey and it's actually why I even got into life coaching. So for very long time I was chasing significance. So milestones, titles, money, this and I'm not saying that's not important. That is important to me. I'm living my truth but that is not my driving factor. Utkarsh Narang (33:24.301) Mm-hmm. Zerina Derveni (33:24.378) That's not my driving force. That's not why I get up, right? If I really wanted to make a lot of money, I would not be a life coach. I would get into investments or be a financier. You know what I mean? I think deep down it's like, okay, maybe that is important to me, but that's not my driving force. Now, if you really look at people who have been very successful in life, the one thing that they actually do really well is they value contribution. What are you bringing to the table? What is your value as a unique individual? And how consistent is that? Because if that's your driving force, then naturally you will attract significance. So I think it's really having a conversation with yourself and a reality check of like, what is driving you? Because I'll tell you, I was my whole 20s for a decade when I was doing really well in corporate. Not only was I just performing, at that time I didn't know that, right? But now I could say that I was valuing significance. Of course, I was getting all these but I was not really contributing any value. That's why I kept shifting and changing and and and I was so easily influenced. I would see somebody doing something successful. I would just copy what they were doing. Now I'm leading with value and contribution and although it is a slower burn, it's a longer roadmap and you will get the significance naturally and I think a lot. Utkarsh Narang (34:49.901) Yeah. Zerina Derveni (34:53.722) of these icons that you talked about, their journey started like that. So I think instead of looking at the results, focus on the journey because that's key. Utkarsh Narang (35:04.301) I love it. love it. And sometimes what I would do is that I'd go onto the YouTube and I flip YouTube to not give me like the latest videos and the most popular videos, but give me the oldest videos of these creators. And I'd look at them and feel like, Hukash, you're not doing bad, But I love this idea of what's your driving force. It's such a powerful question to ask. Zerina Derveni (35:20.698) Hahaha Utkarsh Narang (35:28.173) This is such a human experience. That's why I love the podcast, right? There's such a human experience when these thoughts. So you shared the framework. We went from awakening to unlearning to exploration to integration. To me, it seems complete, but maybe there's more. Where are we now on that? Zerina Derveni (35:42.673) There's one more, one more, one last one. So once you get into integration, you at that point have picked. you know, very important values or beliefs or standards or boundaries for yourself, then you start living, right? And I think part of growth is once you get into it, you can easily become obsessed with it, but it's also living and allowing those values or beliefs to naturally unfold, right? And the journey here does not end. You learn this framework. It's to really help you get to clarity the right way versus thinking or you know reading all the books like sure that's great but that's theory that's not real life and I think we're with me where I found my clarity is actually experiencing it I had to go through my whole journey it's honoring it the only thing you know maybe I regret more was not spending too much time on something that I knew wasn't good for me right but that's now I know better now you know at this stage of my life I won't do that but that's just the human experience and I think it's valuing that and it's putting more emphasis on that versus what you heard, what you read, what you know, like yes those are all important as well but life does not work like that and I feel like you know even talking to the younger generation you look at a lot of their mental health And the stats and they have a lot of them have a lot of anxiety and that it's because they have been I think in my opinion programmed to really focus more on this like Mindset this theory and it's important but no get out there live your life go through experience because you'll be at a much better spot to get clarity Zerina Derveni (37:29.34) than just thinking things through. mean, it's just, it's not the reality, right? And I think that's what I want to emphasize on. Clarity comes from engagement, not thought. Utkarsh Narang (37:41.195) Yeah, love that clarity comes from engagement, not thought. So to whoever is listening, here's the five part framework that you should go through and work with Zerina. We'll put all the links in the show notes. Awakening to unlearning to exploration, integration, and then go out and live. Because living is where the rubber meets the road and you realize that what you need to shift and change and evolve. We continue living on this path, Zerina. We get into the future and we reach your 80 year old self a few decades from now you're 80 years old maybe you have gray hair maybe not maybe you have beautiful black hair or brown whatever color in the wrinkles and however you evolve but that 80 year old has had a lot of wisdom now and if she were to now give you one piece of advice and say for the rest of your years arena this is my one piece of advice to you what would that be Zerina Derveni (38:45.716) she would say stop rushing. think it's very important. to hear that wisdom, stop rushing, you're going to get there or you're going to have everything you want. In the world right now where everything feels, you mentioned it even earlier, overwhelming, fast, not enough time. You're just constantly on edge when it comes to just time and doing things and there are gonna be moments in life you need to rush. I don't wanna sound naive here, but this idea of normalizing rushing is just not healthy. And I think, you know, when you get to that stage in life, and you're so privileged if you get to 80 years old, I think that reminder of not rushing should be more vocalized amongst amongst us, especially now that we're even younger, versus like the the mindset that we have right now where it's like, no, you got to rush it, you got to do everything. It's what are your priorities. So what I started doing the last year and half is I have three priorities every day and I make sure that that's prioritized versus doing anything else and I chose these priorities so they're important to me and it's allowed me to not rush anymore. Utkarsh Narang (40:02.637) you Zerina Derveni (40:08.56) But now I have another issue where I'm like, I need to live more adventurous, but I'm getting there. And that's what I want to get out here. I think it's an ongoing journey. think life is never balanced. But when you start going through this and honoring yourself, you get to a much better place mentally that will allow you to continue to evolve. Utkarsh Narang (40:13.217) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (40:34.349) We're going to listen to the advice of the eight-year-old Zerina. Stop rushing. To everyone who is with us about 45 minutes into this podcast, stop rushing. Slow down. It's okay. You will get whatever you're supposed to have. Remember, comparison is a challenge. And what you need to understand is the whole human experience. Ask yourself, what is your driving force? Life will never be a linear path. It'll always be a squiggly, messy, beautiful journey. Embrace it in all its beautiful shape and sizes. Ask yourself, maybe every day, I don't know every week, whatever the cadence works for you, I wish I lived my truth more. And I think that's important. Self-worth. Ask yourself, are you honoring yourself? Are you honoring your work? Because change is scary, but you've got to honor yourself through that path. And it's okay sometimes to feel lost, stuck and empty, but keep going because this journey from survival and being in that survive mindset, to being able to thrive is a beautiful journey for all of us to take. Some take it in the 20s, some in the 30s, and some maybe in the 50s, and that's absolutely okay. Utkarsh Narang (41:57.343) And be proud of the growth that you've had because that's what the 80 year old Zerina told us a few minutes ago. Have that sense of peace and safety because that's important to you. Thank you, Zerina, for that beautiful conversation. I enjoyed this experience with you. Zerina Derveni (42:14.832) Thank you so much. It's such an honor to have had this conversation with you. So thank you. Utkarsh Narang (42:19.787) Absolutely. And those who are listening on a podcast platform, do not forget to share it with someone who might enjoy it. us on Spotify and Apple podcasts because we need it. And if you're on YouTube, appease the algorithms, leave a comment, let us know. and I are looking on the comments to see if you're here. It'll mean the world to us. And if you spent one hour listening to us, that means the podcast is something that you will value. So why don't subscribe to the channel? You know the drill. I should not repeat it every time, but this is Zerina & Utkarsh signing off. Zerina Derveni (42:49.99) Thank you.