Utkarsh Narang (00:00.903) 20 episodes is what we've done till now and this is the most awaited episode and I really mean it because I'm talking to someone today. So I always, Steve, do a hypothesis of what we'll speak about in this conversation. So in this conversation, my hypothesis is that we will speak about burning buildings, we will speak about TEDx, we will speak about building a personal brand in LinkedIn, we will speak about learning as well, but we will speak about so many things under the roof because Steve is someone who's a dear friend who is in truest definitions of being an Australian is the mate who I can call at 2am and he'll show up. He'll show up. Looking forward to this conversation. How are you my friend today? Steve (00:41.528) Yeah, it's It's I'm so good, man. Like I said, it's been a long time coming, but I wanted to make sure that any bugs or any kinks were ironed out so that we could have as much time as you'll permit. But unlike our normal relationship where we just talk and talk and talk, we're actually contained, which is great. You've set some boundaries. We've got some questions. It's all cool. But I think your hypothesis is correct. I think you'll be very happily surprised. Utkarsh Narang (00:57.454) Beautiful. Utkarsh Narang (01:09.105) Yeah, the listeners will be intrigued what burning buildings has to do with everything, but we'll speak about that. But the first question, Steve, that we kind of use as a starting point to throw us into the deep. If that eight-year-old Steve growing up wherever he was and give us that lay of the land as well, if that eight-year-old Steve were to come to you right now and have a conversation with you, what kind of a conversation will emerge between the two of you? Steve (01:15.118) I'm good. Steve (01:38.316) Yeah, it would be because I'm a because I'm such a massive fan of movies and pop culture. I don't want to mess too much with the space time continuum. So if I have in fact been able to master time travel, I think that the, the, the, the reluctance for me would be, I don't want to give away too much, but I also think it would be super beneficial for me at eight years old to hear that it's going to be okay. because yeah, obviously we met in our amazing TEDx opportunity. We'll talk about that later, I'm sure. But eight-year-old Steve was just starting to realize that life wasn't all sunshine and rainbows. My dad would have just got diagnosed with his first round of cancer and we would lose him four years later. I wouldn't know that. But yeah, I think it would be really nice for me to be able to reassure my eight-year-old self that everything's going to be okay. But what I've realised now in my 38 years and of being on Earth is that even though it's going to be okay, it doesn't mean that the way that we get through everything has to be the way that it's done. And what I mean by that is that while everything's going to be all good and the sun's going to rise and we're going to make it to 38 and a half, which is a treat and a privilege, there's some skeletons that are going to come along for the ride that could be avoided if I was more willing to talk to people and let people in and not have to carry the weight of the of the world and the situations that then show up in the future by myself. So, I mean, it would be a very interesting conversation. And I'm sure the space time continuum would get ripped. And there'd be an alternate reality that I would be brought back brought back to. But yeah, it would be a really, be a really heartfelt conversation, I reckon. Utkarsh Narang (03:33.511) Thank you for the honesty and the openness here because, you know, as you share that, like, I'm still like feeling a sense of vibration slash, which is more than a goosebumps, right? Goosebumps are like you experience them physically, but it's more than that because for an eight year old and to even imagine that a parent is going through, is going to go through that journey and in a few years from then you will lose him. Steve (03:45.774) Okay. Sure. Utkarsh Narang (04:01.863) It's not an easy journey. It's not an easy journey. And I know we've spoken about this since the TEDx a year ago or so. But why is death still such a difficult subject for us to speak about, Steve? Because you spoke about legacy, right? And for listeners who have not yet heard Steve's TEDx talk, Google TEDx and Steve, it's about 70,000, 80,000 views, maybe going up to 100,000 very soon. Steve (04:10.051) Mm. Steve (04:19.192) Hmm. Steve (04:26.016) Yeah, maybe. look, I'm just stoked that I'm just stoked that you watched it, mate. And we got to do it together. But yeah, there's some people have watched it, which is, which is great. So it's legacy in bytes. And it does talk about, it does talk about legacy, but yeah, it's an interesting comment that we do have this. We do have this reservation to talk about it and just to be, to be open about it. Now I've experienced more of it in 38 years than most. And you know, that's, that's good and bad, but Utkarsh Narang (04:29.721) Yeah, no, I did. I did. Yeah. Steve (04:53.004) Yeah, it means it means that I'm more comfortable and desensitized, I guess, to a level where it's just common talk that I usually, usually do. So for anyone that's anyone that's listening that has gone through that or has is currently, you know, obviously, when I talk about it, I've sort of dealt with it in my way. So I'm going to try very hard not to focus on the trauma aspect of it, but more as a vehicle to, you know, celebrate what else could be done when you look at it in a different sort of way or lens. Utkarsh Narang (05:23.511) And what helped you Steve, maybe, and why I'm asking this question is like, maybe there's someone who's going through it right now and maybe they're not eight and I hope, I don't know if eight year olds, I mean, the YouTube data does not show that eight year olds listen to our podcast yet. But if a 18 year old or a 28 year old, even a 38 year old is going through this journey where they've lost a parent, a spouse, a brother, a sibling, a partner, a friend, and they're unable to get through it. How do you, how do you, how do you help them? Steve (05:30.946) Yeah. Steve (05:36.408) Not yet. Steve (05:51.074) Yeah, and that's why that question was so powerful at the start because if I was to go back and do it again, I would do it differently because I did it myself. I think at the end of the day, I had to take it upon myself to keep moving forward and just accept that the sun's going to rise and the world's going to keep ticking. And while it's super significant to me, in the grander scheme of things, it's not as significant the further out into the world I let this thing ripple. That would have been my answer up until probably five years ago. And it's a true test of learning from your own life and being able to not just say that you've learned something, but actually practice it. Because for me, my opinion on this has changed. I would have strongly just said, yep, if it's meant to be, it's up to me. But the thing with these sort of events is it does leave a mark. And that mark... will follow you unless you do something about it. And you can't actually do that yourself. You need either a higher being, whatever that is for you, or you need a professional who can help you unpack that in a way that allows you to not let it be carried with you for so long. And I think for me, and my advice to people who might be going through it, who are either younger or they're just going through it, I don't think age is necessarily a factor, is that Get someone that you can talk to, whether it's a professional, whether it's a coach, whether it's a higher power, but please, please, please, from someone who's been there and had to figure it out a bit too late, or not, it's always time, but like I figured it out way later than I should have, yeah, having someone to share that with and to just talk through it is a real useful thing. Utkarsh Narang (07:43.067) Yeah, that's so powerful. I'm just and I sometimes wonder, my wife does not listen to my podcast yet, but I speak and when she starts to listen to this, maybe I'll stop doing the podcast because I vividly share about how our relationship has grown over the last 20 plus years and how we raise our children. But she lost her dad about nine years ago, I think. And it has it has been something that if anyone were to speak about Steve (07:56.238) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (08:12.961) that moment about him, about the memories, it would it would bring a tear to her eye. And I wanted to help her is what I'm saying. But help is not the right word. I wanted to support her to go through that journey quicker because I love her and I want her want that for her. But it's a journey that she had to take. And only I think in the last 12 months, because of certain conversations with certain people, which I'm not sharing here, but Steve (08:33.582) Mm. Utkarsh Narang (08:40.847) because of those conversations with certain people, she's been able to just have a more positive relationship with that loss. But then what changed for you, Steve? You said five years ago that shifted. What changed that five years ago it allowed you to shift that relationship? Steve (08:48.941) Mm. Steve (08:58.402) I mean, it's the same. It's it's the, it's some of the parts of my personality that I can attribute some of my greatest successes. So the thing that makes me successful in the work that I do and with my commercial, like with my commercial relationships, that part of my life, it doesn't serve me personally. It doesn't, it's not helping me. And these were things that I've learned out of coping and re and feeling back then that I had to do it all myself and I had to be super strong. And it was. You know, it was considered weak to start, you know, going into and unpacking these things and wading through it. It was just better to just zip it into a Ziploc bag, file it away for later and hope it never comes to the surface. And unfortunately, there were, there were a number of related events and some patterns that started to evolve in other aspects of my life where I was like, huh, that's weird. That's happened again. Huh. There's the same thing happening again. What's going on? And it wasn't until I asked that question and realized that it was me, not the world, that was the gate opening to me feeling like I could start to unpack it. But I think you said it before. It's not no one can help you get to that point. You actually have to get there yourself because it doesn't matter how much extra support you're going to get until you've realized and you make that choice yourself. There's no amount of support that you're going to get that's going to be meaningful beyond just the warm and fuzzy feelings that you might get from someone caring about you. So yeah, I really, I really resonate with what you're saying about wanting to be there to support. And I think you, corrected yourself, right? You want to help, but then you said support. Cause it is that you've just got to be there because we've got to come to that moment ourselves, I think. And that's probably the biggest realisation for me is that, yeah, I could just keep going or I could just accept the fact that, Hey, I need some help. And I don't have the skills to get through this myself, but Utkarsh Narang (10:36.795) Yeah. Yeah. Steve (10:54.614) I'm recognising there's some symptoms and some things that have happened that repeated times 10 years, times 20 years, it ain't gonna be fun for me, you know, in that period of time. So I made that choice. Utkarsh Narang (11:07.527) Amazing. And from that for listeners who have not watched the TEDx yet. So there were hundred people in the room while Steve was on the stage. I was sitting there with my wife and I was seeing people around us and there were people who were in tears as you Steve shared that story about you, that interaction with your dad. I'd love for you to take us there and help us understand what was that story like. And then also share like what allowed you to Steve (11:21.71) Mm. Utkarsh Narang (11:35.899) come to that relationship where you were on the stage on the TEDx dot, which you and I are the masters of and we have the red dot. We've had so many jokes about that. But what allowed you to shift that relationship, but also take us through that moment? How was it for you to be on that stage? Steve (11:41.982) The dot, the red dot. Steve (11:46.519) Mm. Steve (11:53.058) Yeah, the Tedx experience was, was, unbelievable. And I mean, it, the origin story of me ending up on the red dot was not a positive, like it wasn't something that I woke up and I'm like, I want to be a Tedx speaker. was out of spite for someone else who was bragging about them being a Tedx speaker. So that's an example of like the cool part of my commercial life actually not serving me in the real world. However, it turned out to be an amazing gift because it allowed me to. It allowed me to put together a talk that was meaningful, impactful, and it was about a particular thing that was my way of changing the world or sharing an idea that was worth sharing. And it actually ended up connecting all of the things that I do to my dad. And it was such a treat to be able to use the stage as a vehicle to go through that. And it probably brought me to even more peace with the situation. the TLDR version of it is that, you know, my, I, I found out that my dad was given one week to live and he didn't prioritize the documenting and capturing of his life. And so he didn't believe that he was going to die. Like most of us, don't, and we shouldn't, we shouldn't be living in fear. We should, we should just absolutely accept that there's more time. Unfortunately for him, he didn't have it. And so he rushed to stitch together a cassette tape and it's here. Here it is. A cassette tape of his life. And there's only 13 minutes and 20 seconds on here. And for those listening, it's actually an old school cassette tape that you put into a tape recorder. And on that is a real rushed attempt at him documenting his life. And it was... It was a double edged sword. was beautiful to receive something. And we're forever grateful for having the fact that we've got his voice, you know, almost, you know, 20, 30 years on from his passing. So I don't have to forget what he sounds like. I've got that familiarity, but it is a missed opportunity because had he have prioritized the capturing of his life throughout his life, we would have much more than, 13 minutes. So my talk goes into sharing that story. Steve (14:08.694) And then using that as a catalyst or a spark for people today in 2025 and beyond to go, well, it's not very difficult now to capture things. It's not a cassette tape. It's not a tape recorder. It's a voice note on your phone. It's a video. It's a podcast recording. You know, what a great legacy for my, for my beautiful niece to receive this and have this on YouTube. So yeah, it sort of encouraged and invited people to, you know, capture their own stories for their world, but also help their older relatives share their stories as well. and the community as a whole too. Utkarsh Narang (14:41.275) Reminds me of this conversation I was having with a colleague many years ago, where he and I were trying to see what business ideas would change the world. And this was 2014 or 15. One thing that we were discussing was that what if we could start a company and people who want to execute feel free to, you don't have to even give any royalty to us. If someone were to go and talk to people who are there in 70s and 80s, like if I as a... Steve (15:06.914) Mmm. Utkarsh Narang (15:08.935) as an end consumer were to hire this company to go and film like a 60 minute recording or documentary with my parents, I would cherish that. It would be so special. would be so special. And what you're sharing, Steve, that 30 minute tape is beautiful, like how it is. You're saying it's a double-edged sword, but look at us right now, right? I mean, we're in this phase of and I'd love to have you also share insights on how AI is going to shift that and change that because Steve (15:17.39) Mm. Steve (15:35.598) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (15:37.091) It seems that we have all the technology in our hands, but we're still not prioritizing certain things. So what's your kind of take on how the world is shifting? Steve (15:45.71) Oh, the world, the world is, I, I, I talked to my brother about this because, know, I'm an uncle that's, I've only got, I'm only, I've only got that as a, as a, as a treat for now, you know, but I look at my niece, she's seven and in 10 years, she's going to be finishing school and moving into the world. The amount of, the amount of development and speed of development that we've experienced technologically in the last two years, let alone six months, like what's the world actually going to be like for her? And it, scares me a little bit because. I mean, we were, we weren't digital natives. We were born, we're probably one of the last generations to be born into a world without the internet and grow into it during our developmental years, which makes us quite flexible when it comes to being able to know the tech, but also remembering and appreciating what it was like to not have it and have to do all the work. think, I think voice and video, like video is not there yet, but certainly voice. mean, if you have, if you have minutes to hours of someone's voice, you can plug that into an AI model and then you can voice to text off it. And it sounds, you know, pretty, pretty good. I've got one for myself. And if you didn't know me at a friendship level, you wouldn't know that it's not me. But what does that mean? It means that you could probably immortalize someone. If you, if you took someone's stories and memories and plugged it into an AI model with AI voice, you could probably start to generate someone to live on forever. Now that's a double-edged sword because, you know, I I workshop this with my team and some of my colleagues in this space and it's like, okay, what are the pros and cons of that? All right. So if you miss someone who's gone, you can, you can dial into the tech and have them and they can be talking and telling stories in their voice. And that's really comforting. But what if you had a parent that didn't tell you that they were proud of you. And then all of a sudden you're able to program into this model. to skit your father to tell you that he's proud of you after all these years, never having heard it. What does that do? And so it opens an ethical door that sort of like I'm 50 50 on it, right? Cause at the end of the day, I'm not qualified to make an opinion around the wellbeing and the health implications of that by doing that. But if it, if it helped you not be grieving and you're able to move through through it in a more effective way, I'm all for it. But Utkarsh Narang (17:52.86) Hmm. Steve (18:13.292) Obviously it's a bit of a tricky area to go into. What are your thoughts? Because you're in it as well. Utkarsh Narang (18:19.911) What are interesting? I think the world and I was thinking about this as I was talking to my son yesterday, we were at the gym and I was looking at this news piece, right? Where a driver and sadly so drives through like a Filipino market or festival and killed about I think 18 to 20 is what I last know and maybe there's more. And my heart goes out for those who lost their lives, right? And then there's something that's happening in India around terrorism and then the wars that are happening. And so I was talking to my son that that world Steve (18:37.827) Gosh. Utkarsh Narang (18:50.745) is a crazy place, but there are enough good people in the world that the eternal optimist in me feels that we'll go in the right direction and things will be better. But I think it's a very interesting battle that's happening between what we want, Steve, and what we need. And I think we have lost the lines are so blurred that we feel that we need everything. But at the end of the day, do we really need everything? And I think if the world will try and answer that question each individual honestly answer that question for themselves. I think we'll get a lot of answers. But yeah, I don't know if we're the experts on influencing but yeah, we'll we'll try and influence our own world in beautiful ways. As we move forward, you know, I don't know why my heart and mind wants me to talk about burning buildings. What is it? What is it? What is it about Steve? What is it about burning buildings that and to listeners Steve will share more. Steve (19:28.846) I don't think so. course. Steve (19:39.781) I bet you do. Utkarsh Narang (19:48.743) But burning buildings will hopefully lead to authenticity is what my hypothesis is for the next few minutes. But Steve, what is it about burning buildings that you get attracted by? Steve (19:52.878) Mm. Steve (19:59.106) Yeah. And it's, it's the ghosts. would say these are the ghosts of Christmas past. Right. So, so this is, so since I haven't, no, I still run into burning buildings and I don't like, I don't like buildings on fire. Like this is a meta, this is metaphorically, right. I think it's super important. Like I like, like watching fire. That's cool. But I'm not burning things down. That's, that's very important. I think, I think because of my upbringing and what I had to do for myself. I had to teach myself a lot of things. I had to learn a lot of skills. I had to put myself out there. I had to develop confidence. I had to manufacture it. You wouldn't know it now, but I had to manufacture it in order to survive. So it was a survival mechanism for me. Good or bad. let's not put the good or the bad, because there's definitely parts of both in this. But as a result, I realized that there are a lot of people out there that I would refer to as either insecure about their own abilities and they don't have the confidence. So they manufacture it in ways that could be deemed manipulative, shallow. Another word for it would be like a charlatan. So someone who's, you know, putting on a big show on the surface, but underneath the surface, there's nothing there. It's a show about nothing. And so what usually happens is, and as a result of being The word that comes to mind is disadvantaged, but I don't agree with that word, but it's just a word to help sort of position this, is that for me, I see myself as someone who has gone into the fire through life and come out and I survived, right? Good or bad. There are other people who don't have the resilience or the confidence or the ability or the skills right now to get through and survive without being taken advantage of by... these wolves in sheep's clothings, the charlatans, the spinsters, these sort of shallow people with nothing to show for it. So when I see it happening, it just triggers me. And I've come to learn that that's actually not a good thing for me anymore. So my running into burning buildings may reduce, but every now and again, it'll appear. But what I see happening is because I know what they're doing, Steve (22:17.152) I'm unapologetic about calling it out. And so when we say, when we say I run into burning buildings or I, there's burning buildings in my world. If I see someone spinning snake oil or selling it, or trying to manipulate or deceive, I will use my learnt behaviors and skillset to systematically like unpack those people to make sure that the spotlight is shown where it needs to be shown. And it's It's a really fine line because I don't believe it's malicious. I just believe it's the right thing to do. And so in my mind, it aligns with my favorite superhero, Batman, because Batman fights for justice. His North Star is justice. However, unlike Superman, who does it in the light, Batman's prepared to get his hands a little dirty and bloody in order to still fight for that same North Star. So I've always resonated with Batman really well. However, Utkarsh Narang (22:55.399) Mm. Steve (23:14.124) looking into Bruce Wayne's future, which is also my realization, is he's not a dude that hangs out with people and has a beautiful family and is, you know, really, he's a superhero, but he's a lonely, it's a lonely road for people like that. So yeah, when we met, we were, was very much into, was very much into running into burning buildings and the TEDx world is full of these charlatans that. talk a big game, but there's nothing underneath the surface and the business networking world for small businesses and obviously supporting your endeavors into Australia and proving that Australia is actually a cool place to work. We have come across a few of these wolves in sheep's clothing. So as a result, it's that. I mean, what's been a real treat is that every now and again, it takes someone to call out bad behavior or questionable behavior. Utkarsh Narang (23:53.168) It is. Steve (24:10.114) to reveal the true character. And some of them that I've shone the light on have reacted exactly the way that I would expect them to. Like they've reacted, you know, and bit back. And if they bite, it's like, it's like, you know, sugar to flies or honey to bees, right? It just allows me to do even more to just allow them to keep systematically unraveling themselves. And obviously this isn't like in the end game, this is not a healthy way to continue to operate. So. Utkarsh Narang (24:11.815) Hmm. Steve (24:38.602) It is a, it's a past tense for me. I'm happy to say. however, there's a surprising every now and again, as someone will surprise you and you'll shine it and they'll go, my gosh, I didn't realize I was, let me be better. And that's their opportunity to do the right thing and be real. So through me being real and I'm unapologetically real, like when I, this is me, this is how I rock up to work. Utkarsh Narang (24:40.263) Yeah. Yeah. Steve (25:02.214) I, you know, I have my, I have what you would call a personal brand, but it's just me. Like I don't like wearing suits. So I don't wear them. I like wearing t-shirts. I like them having cool things on there. This is one of our clients or one of our partners t-shirts. I wear that. I like wearing hats because it reminds me of my dad telling me to put my hat on before I go outside. So I don't get sunburned. I don't have any hair under here, but that's also like, it's a nice memory for me and a ritual to like nod to the past. So I'm unapologetically myself. And so I think it. I think that dovetails into the way that I advocate for those who are less able to advocate for themselves or see the bullshit for what it actually is. Yeah, it's a cool place for me to be. Utkarsh Narang (25:43.749) Yeah. Fascinating. And Steve calls our relationship as yin and yang. We balance each other out because I keep telling Steve that you have to worry about all the burning buildings. You don't have to worry about everyone. But I understand now, Steve, how that might really help the other person be better. And maybe the way that you do it is something that I've nudged you very politely and thoughtfully so. But what's also interesting is like. Steve (25:52.333) That's right. Steve (26:10.616) You Utkarsh Narang (26:16.251) You know, as you spoke about the North Star, you spoke about the person. And by the way, thank you for sharing that how that hat makes you stay connected to your dad and how that's a ritual that that's very special. Thank you for sharing that. mean, as a friend, I am getting to know something new about you through the podcast. That's that's the best thing that can come out of this podcast. But this this idea around being authentic, being unapologetic, I think to me, that's what life should be all about. Like who the fuck cares what and me using this word is is Steve (26:24.43) Hmm. Steve (26:41.43) Of course. you okay? Are you alright? Utkarsh Narang (26:45.583) Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, is, is, is, is something that, but I really have started to feel that way that if you keep doing things just because the world wants you to be a certain way, or the society wants you to be pushed in a certain way, or you feel that this is what the norm is, then you will be far away from who you are unapologetically. And, and I think I've had a few coaching conversations with people who have used this word unapologetic. But what helps you be unapologetic? Steven, how can someone who's listening to you be putting this into practice? Steve (27:18.958) Yeah, that's a really good question. the beauty of it is I just go where the first thought that came. And for me, I've set my entire life up. And it's not just, it hasn't always been this way, right? was, unfortunately, it was another death that encouraged this to happen, which was the death of my mum back in 2016. I committed to... I committed to going all in on a business that is not able to be sold. And so let me just, let me, there's a bit there, obviously all the people that have businesses that they want to sell, I've got the pitchforks out. But what I mean by that is I recognise that in order for me to do the stuff that I love, it's not a product that I can sell that is a representation of me. It's not the thing that's going to make me want to get up out of bed. But what is, is a business that's built on my core values. And then by extension, it's me as a business, as a business with a team. Now we have a team, but we have a team of eight or nine individuals. work with clients all over the world. But at the end of the day, when I'm done, there's no exit for me because no one can buy my business because it's built completely around my language, my look, my brand, my thoughts, my processes. And because of that, I think that's the thing that's allowing me to feel really comfortable and wanting to go to work every day, wanting to, you know, challenge the status quo, wanting to continue to create new things and hang out with cool people like yourself is that, yeah, I'm building something that's unapologetically mine. And because of that, there's, guess there's a, you you would have a much more eloquent way of framing this, but I would imagine it would be something to do with the alignment of that sort of Japanese concept of, Ikigai, which is, you know, something that I'm good at, something that I'm can be paid for and something that will help the world. Well, if it's all based on you and your expertise, your vision, your thoughts, then that's probably a good thing. Could it be done if you're working for someone in a job? Yeah, absolutely. I think, I think it does relate to everyone, but I have chosen to obviously just talk about it from a, an, being an expert and having a business perspective. Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (29:40.327) I love that. this ability to be your unapologetic self comes from this very deep alignment of who you are on the inside and how you've built a life on those core values and around who you want to be. Because if say you were in a corporate job in a big four and they will ask you to wear a suit, then that would be completely against who you are and that will not allow you to find the joy that you're finding right now in working with the clients and doing the work that you do. Steve (30:15.148) Yeah. And it's, it's, it's tricky because there are social and societal norms around dress. And so I went to a friend of mine's funeral and I dress the way that I dress in day-to-day work. I wore my Nike sneakers, jeans, a t-shirt and my hat. Everyone else was in a suit. Now the grieving widow just saw me and smiled and said, there you are. Like we've missed you. And my husband. would appreciate you just showing up just like you. And so, so that was cool. However, we have a common, we have a common relationship and a connection. And so I actually wore a suit for the Can We Talk Awards night only because there was a distinction, there was a clear distinction there that I was being invited by a company. So it wasn't me on, it wasn't me going to show up for me. It was me showing up for someone else. So I am happy to bend the rules there, but was I comfortable? No. Did I wear sneakers with my suit? Yes. And the dance floor was very forgiving that night because I wasn't wearing dress shoes or fancy high heels. I was wearing comfortable Nike sneakers. Utkarsh Narang (31:26.137) Amazing, amazing. But that story, mean, for that friend's grieving widow, mean, how special would that be of a memory to her because the friend showed up just being who he is and not someone else? Steve (31:39.256) Hmm. Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (31:42.759) need to take a deep breath after that. This idea of Northstar and how it matches to the, and we have to speak about personal branding, right? Because both of us are working towards that. And we have a brand that we show up with. But this whole idea of building a personal brand in this, in 2025, if someone were to, and this is completely click-baity, I don't do that, but I want to do something click-baity for the first time. But if in 2025, Steve, someone wants to work on their personal brand, Steve (31:49.218) Mm-hmm. Steve (32:07.598) You Utkarsh Narang (32:14.437) Where do they begin? Because it's a crazy world out there. can program, chat GPT to be writing things about yourself, things that you would want to put on social media, but then that becomes inauthentic in certain ways, or maybe it does. But yeah, what's your approach to building a personal brand in 2025? Steve (32:32.258) Yeah, I think you just need to, you need to sit with yourself. read a, I read a blog post yesterday from a colleague and she's so eloquent. Like she's a beautiful writer and Jennifer, if you're, if you're watching this, like congratulations, you got me. She wrote a reflective piece around how she was walking through the city and she decided to take her headphones out and leave her phone in her pocket and just enjoy the city. And she contrasted that between being plugged in and being unplugged and what she saw and what she noticed that was different. about the city when there was nothing else distracting her. And I thought, man, that's really cool. And I think to answer that question, I think the first thing you need to do is you just need to sit by yourself and not be distracted by anything. Just allow things to happen and just then put the, put the question out. Right. And you, again, you've got the way to articulate this a lot better, but hopefully you appreciate the, the you know, the melting of some of my, you know, hardened exterior to even talk about this. Would we have talked about this when we first met? Absolutely not. So it's a little treat for you. The smile on your face is a treat to go like, this is interesting. But I think, yeah, I think that's gonna, that's gonna then open up a couple of things. The question that you might ask is like, what do I care the most about? Like, and that would probably help define some of your values. Now for me, if I was to talk about that, one of the things that I care about is I care about people getting Utkarsh Narang (33:32.145) Not at all, not at all. Yeah. Steve (33:55.05) not people not getting taken advantage of. So that could be materialized in me running into burning buildings. Or if I articulated it into say some of our company values, it would be make it editable. Don't hold it like teach our clients how to fish. So for me, teaching people how to own their own things and being able to self serve so that they're not reliant or sucked into these wolves in sheep's clothing. That's the that's the materialization of that core thing. So I can still be talking about burning buildings, but I'm doing it in a way that allows me to align that way. And now because I'm talking about my company, my company is me. So it's like it's, it's an extension, but it's still the same thing. I mean, just thinking about those things, what are the things that are super important to you? And then try and overlay it with your expertise or the things that light you up as a, as a person. So professionally, you need to generate income. Like that's unfortunate. That's unfortunate way of the world. We're not back in medieval times where you could just roam the earth and get into adventures and snack on a snack on a pineapple on the side of the road. So you need a vehicle to make income. And if that then is overlaid with your values, then that's a really great connection in building that Japanese Ikigai sort of sort of model is that some stuff that you love and stuff that you're good at that should be bridged together with those core values. And that's probably the genesis of your personal brand right there. Utkarsh Narang (35:18.695) Yeah, I think what I want to kind of and you're absolutely right. See, the first time we, when we met, was the audition for the TEDx, right? And, and I think you would be the last person who I would expect myself to be sitting with and then creating this very strong bond with. Because I remember your energy and it still is and I'll share more on that as well is always like out there, right? And I'm like someone who's like completely in and I would not imagine us to have a conversation. This was like I think it was six months into Australia. to me, I'm already, I'm not afraid, but I'm already judging myself. Like, will I be able to even have like a great conversation with this person? Why should you even try? And I remember a dear friend of ours, Devesh was on the same table with us and three of us should do a podcast. that'd be pretty, pretty awesome. But it was, yeah. And you've changed, you've changed and you're Steve (36:12.398) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (36:12.753) You're talking about a lot of inner stuff, which is great to say. I'm talking about, I'm using the F word on the podcast. So yeah, I'm using the F word on the podcast. So we have both moved, moved from where we are. But I think the idea that you're time and again, referring to, I just love that because to me, I think all the, all the outward expressions will get unified if you were to really understand yourself better. And that's where it all kind of, Steve (36:15.182) A lot of added stuff. you cursed on the podcast. Who are you? Utkarsh Narang (36:39.975) ends, what's your North Star? What's your Ikigai? What lights you up? What ignites your spark? And we keep having these conversations. But I also want to speak about this, right? I saw you in action at a conference a few weeks ago. And two things that I want to of freely speak about, and I'd love how you operate on those. So for those, Steve was at a conference. He was speaking there, leading a workshop for about 100, 200 people maybe in the room. Steve (36:45.346) Yeah. Steve (36:54.478) Okay. Utkarsh Narang (37:09.263) And his company had a booth, right? And so one thing that he did was he invited three of his clients, partners, including me, to be there and just use that stage to a pitch his company, pitch ourselves, have conversations, make connections, network. And he did not give us like any guide rails, like this is how you have to do it if you don't speak about my company and then this will happen. There was nothing. And we were there. We had great conversations. Three of us spoke to each other. So that was one, which was again amazing. And then second was on day one, he met someone there whose product he really liked and come day two, that person had their screen on our, on, on the desk and they were, yeah, telling the world about their product, which is unheard of, unheard of. And number three, in the middle of a workshop, which is about learning and development, which is about talking that the world needs to rethink their approach to learning and development. And I love that approach, Steve. think we should do like a part two to Steve (38:05.026) So. Utkarsh Narang (38:06.863) actually cover that because we'll not even get there today. In the middle of that, you have the DJs spin some tunes. What what goes through your mind, my friend, to do all these three things so so beautifully? Steve (38:14.83) you Steve (38:23.01) I mean, at the end of the day, and I think I said it during, and you were so gracious in filming. think you filmed, you were holding my GoPro. Like I had, I had you as my chief videographer, which is amazing. What a, I think it came up all right. I think it came up, it came up, it came up well. We're saving the, saving the footage, but it's always dangerous because I surf with my GoPro. So I can never, I can't guarantee that the footage is clear, but it's, it was still captured, which was, which was beautiful. I think I got a question at the end of, I got a beautiful question from a lovely lady named Sarah. Utkarsh Narang (38:31.131) How did that come out though? I need to look at it. Steve (38:52.506) And she asked like, how can I deliver a presentation like that? And my answer was the same as what we've just sort of talked about. I was unapologetic. And I just said, look, at the end of the day, I don't really care what the audience thinks of me. Now that's, that's not entirely true because I do like, want to add value when I, when I stand on stage, especially, I want to make sure that the audience gets as much value because it's time, right? And I respect time and I value it so, so, so deeply, but at the same time, it's like at the end of the day, I was comfortable with what I've delivered so that I'm going to go home, I'm going to go to sleep and I'm going to sleep really well because I'm exhausted from being so outward that way. But I mean, the values that my parents instilled in me in the short time that I had with one of them. And then obviously my mum raising me was that, you know, you should do nice things for other people. And you would like, you would probably call that karma. And it's, it's that right? Is it's like, look, At the end of the day, I was going to be bored out of my brains being there by myself. And my, my world is more around if I can help you three get more visibility, then we're going to end up working together to make it happen anyway. And it's just, it's probably again, just checking your ego at the door and the advice to those people who need to feel like they're in need to be in the spotlight. And they can't relinquish any of it out of fear of, you know, being you know, losing business or losing deals, I would encourage you to just completely remove yourself wherever possible. So for me, I loved seeing you connecting with some of our colleagues and clients and then hearing that you had really positive conversations. Cause what that means for me is that I get, I've done my job as a friend, but at the same time, when the time comes, the trust between you and I to bring whatever you need to bring into the world for those clients, we're going to do work together anyway. And even if we didn't. I still get to go to sleep at night going, what a cool event. got to spend some time with my good friends. I got to celebrate my client's success. I got to stand up on stage. I got to be a DJ for a few minutes. It was awesome. Utkarsh Narang (41:00.825) It was, was, yeah. If everyone goes and checks out our TEDx talks, know, both Steve and I point to the same thing. We both take our hand up. Yeah. Yeah. Steve had a clock there, which was ticking, tick tock, tick tock, tick tock. And I had a, a phenomenal list, a tight rope up there who was trying to balance, balance his life. And I think what just that kind of tells me is like, Steve (41:10.382) We did. I had a clock. I had a clock. It was awesome. Steve (41:24.782) That's right. Utkarsh Narang (41:33.159) This whole idea of not trying to predict the future, this whole idea of the future will figure its shit out. You just got to live in today, live in the present. And I don't mean that don't save for tomorrow. I don't mean that educate your kids because they don't even have a future. I don't mean that you don't do the right things that need to be done for the future, but live so fully in the day and serve so beautifully the people around you that it's a day worth living. Steve (41:48.526) course. Steve (41:56.462) Mm. Utkarsh Narang (42:02.853) which will then compound to a life worth living. Awesome. As we go down this, I mean, I can talk to you for five hours, my friend. We should do, we will definitely do a part two. Like part of me is like thinking like we should do like a season two, which is all part twos with who we have spoken and how we've evolved as people. Yeah. Steve (42:05.774) Absolutely. Steve (42:11.894) I know. What a treat. Hijacked. You need to do a separate spin-off show just for us to get everything. Utkarsh Narang (42:24.359) Exactly. Ignited in season two. But if you were to now and one more, I need to also I don't know how energies get transferred and I don't know what happens after life. I've not died yet to know that. But I really want to applaud Steve, parents for how they've raised you and how you think about these things, because because I met a few people in life, but not every. Steve (42:37.591) Mmm. Steve (42:43.351) Mmm. Utkarsh Narang (42:50.855) not a lot of people and there is a percentage who thinks like this, but not a lot of people think in the way that you think, which is that, let me serve the world. Let me be my best self and everything else will be taken care of. a quick shout out to your parents. Yeah, absolutely. They did their best. But as you now move forward, see, you said you're 38, you don't look like you're even like 25 yet, but we'll have that conversation in part two. Steve (43:04.396) Yeah, big nod for sure. Absolutely. They did their best. They did the best they could. Steve (43:16.014) Bless you, Mike. Utkarsh Narang (43:19.399) But if now that 80 year old Steve, and I cannot even say that he would have gray hair, if that 80 year old Steve with his cap on, with the beautiful wrinkles on his face comes to you right now and gives you one piece of advice that man, for the next 42 years that you have on the planet, what would he say? Steve (43:25.698) He wouldn't. Steve (43:45.97) Wow. Amazing. It would be, I would, he would probably tell me to be patient and that it's worth, and it's worth it. Because I think that's the challenge that I've faced all the way up to where I am now, which is I've had this, I'll call it a fear. I've feared the clock because history shows that from a family perspective, I don't have the best clock that's ticking, right? It's going to stop a bit sooner than it should and history might repeat itself. So there is a bit of fear there. And I think... Yeah, if I got to see my 80 year old self, it'd be a huge relief to go, you don't have to solve the problems of the world tomorrow. You've got time, be patient, but also be purposeful. And I think that's the beauty. That's that beautiful dichotomy between times ticking and it's going to stop at some point. So you should be mindful of how you live your life and not waste time. But at the same time, great things do take time. Right? So when you plant a tree, takes time to grow to become the beautiful big you know, Australian yellow gum trees that you see in the parks and in the fields. So yeah, it's probably finding that balance. But yeah, I think that would be the thing that would give me a lot of comfort is that it was, yeah, you've got time and just be patient. Utkarsh Narang (45:08.305) Yeah. Such a, such a, such an important lesson, but so hard to put into practice because patients. Yeah. I mean, I want this podcast to touch a million followers like next week, but it won't happen. It'll, it'll, it'll take a lot of, beautiful conversations and a lot of effort, a lot of strategy, lot of thinking to get there. And I think you just nailed this. So for everyone who's listening, be patient, but be purposeful. your time is ticking. Steve (45:15.692) Mmm, gosh, tell me about it. Steve (45:22.23) Of course, of course. Utkarsh Narang (45:37.551) We don't know when that clock's going to stop. And this is a clock that we'll not be able to change our batteries and buy a new clock. So make the most of the life that you have. I think that's what Steve and I keep leading to. And run into burning buildings if that gives you the joy. Sit and meditate in a Lotus poster if that helps you. But make a life that's worth living. And you do that by making your days that are worth living. Steve (45:45.198) Mm. Utkarsh Narang (46:06.385) For those who listening to this podcast on a podcast platform, please share this with a friend who might find this of value. And if you're on YouTube, we have to appease to the algorithm gods. We have to make sure that they love us and they throw us at other people. So just like, comment, and subscribe. And Steve, any final words before we drop the mic? Steve (46:27.054) I you've summed that up so beautifully. So I have nothing. I have nothing to add. It was such a treat to be able to spend some time with you, mate. Utkarsh Narang (46:36.785) Same here. See you soon.