Utkarsh Narang (00:01.555) Hey, Sanil thank you for being on the Ignited Neurons Podcast. I look forward to the conversation. And we've been in touch for a very long time. I remember you led one of these sessions where I was a participant. So I have fond memories and look forward to learning more from you today. Sanil Pillai (00:18.351) Absolutely, you guys are always happy to talk to you. Utkarsh Narang (00:20.797) Beautiful. So the first question, Sanil, that we opened the podcast with is that if that eight-year-old Sanil were to be looking at you right now and standing face to face having a conversation, what do you think will emerge in that conversation between you and that eight-year-old self? Sanil Pillai (00:38.682) It's interesting. think one thing will be, the eight year old self is going to look at me and say, I would have had no clue that this is what you would be doing. So there's absolutely no idea that this is what you'd be doing. So very, very much in surprise and awe that life has taken so many turns for me. That's number one. We're also very excited, I think, about the fact that today I get the opportunity to kind of help people. through every interaction that I have, right? Every coaching session is a fun session. So I think having no clue at the same time also very excited about where I've landed. I think that's what I think. That's my hope that that's what my eight year old would say. Utkarsh Narang (01:23.406) It's interesting you say that and maybe a deeper question that I feel comes to me is that as you today help others, was there anything that as a young child you observed seen being practiced at home? What led to maybe any event that you feel like sharing that might have led to this Sanil now helping others? Sanil Pillai (01:47.438) Yeah, I wouldn't say there's one particular, you know, seminal event that actually made a difference. I would say even during my school years and college years, I was always interested about human beings and, you know, thinking and about life in general a lot, right? And it has always fascinated me as to, you know, as to what we do and what are we trying to do and what is what it all means. Probably this much larger thing. Utkarsh Narang (02:14.387) Hmm. Hmm. Sanil Pillai (02:16.122) So as I grew older, I think I realized that the people side of the equation of everything was so very important. As I went through my years in the software industry, building teams, et cetera, I always found that the people side is so interesting. So I think these over time, I always added to the fact that any interaction that you have and been able to help has always been very meaningful to me. And that's carried forward through different aspects of my life and eventually making me a coach. So I would say... bits and pieces of that really always been fascinated about life has been one of their key drivers. Utkarsh Narang (02:52.283) Yeah, yeah. And I'll ask you the million dollar question and hopefully as a coach, you'll have the answer for us. What do you think is the meaning of life? And I'd love to have like a very open conversation on this podcast today. But what do you think life stands for based on your experiments, based on what you've observed from others? Sanil Pillai (02:59.086) Yeah Sanil Pillai (03:15.674) I would say, you know, life is what meaning one wants to give it, right? It is not going to be possible for anyone to define what life is. mean, there's a whole biological definition of what life is. And, you know, there is a start and there is an end, right? Starting from a cell to all the way to death. There's that definition in evolution, which is well understood through science. But in terms of how we live as human beings, right? Life is really what we want to make out of it and what meaning we assign to it. For some, the idea of life is to reach a certain goal and be ambitious to reach a certain goal. For some, it is the idea of being happy. For some, it is caring and sharing. So I would say, as long as you assign a meaning to life, and as long as you are trying to remain mostly true to that meaning, that is what life is for you. Utkarsh Narang (03:57.769) Mm. Utkarsh Narang (04:08.265) Beautiful, beautiful. And those who are listening, I think it's a, it's very provocative conversation that we are getting into right now, because this idea about success that I think, Sainil and I love your views also. And I was talking to a coach just one hour before our conversation, this outer kind of metric of success that, that success lies only on the outside or success in the million dollars or the big car or the next role, the next level. I think this needs a reframing and many people have been able to do that. So what you're saying, Sanil is that you define your own meaning and once you're able to do that, then that helps you perceive and carve out the life that you would be finding kind of joy out of. Is that correct? Sanil Pillai (04:51.374) That is correct because I would say success is also not an end goal for anybody. At the end of the day, the end goal really is happiness. That's what we all striving for. We're striving for happiness. Whether happiness comes out of launching to Starship or whether happiness comes out of having a burger that you really love. That is the end goal is happiness. And happiness, i think, Utkarsh Narang (05:00.307) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (05:10.089) Hmm. Sanil Pillai (05:21.068) is a a a pathless land, right? There is not like a single path to happiness. And for some, happiness might come through successes in profession, through money, to certain aspects in education, etc. Some it is more about creation. For some, is happiness is all about enjoying the current moments of life. So so I think when we talk about success and the outer definition of success and why there's a lot of meaning given to it. I think somewhere along the way the narrative moved from happiness to more on the journey to that and I think everything became about the journey. Right? And success became like that flag post to signify whether you've, you you arrived in that journey or not. All right. So I think that is where it is. So I think, yes, it is correct that, you know, there's an outer definition of success, but I think that is because we forget sometimes that real goal is happiness. Utkarsh Narang (05:59.593) you Utkarsh Narang (06:06.825) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (06:18.377) Hmm. Sanil Pillai (06:18.436) And when you look at happiness, then success just becomes one of the means to get to it. That's not the only means to get. Utkarsh Narang (06:25.007) Got it. Fascinating, fascinating. And you bring this conversation around happiness, which is something that's very close to my heart. About eight years ago, I used to be videographer and photographer. So to kind of nuance my skills of photography, I took up a project where I would be in Delhi, India at that time, and I would go out on the streets and meet someone every day and ask them what is happiness to them. And I collected data for about 400 days straight and Sanil Pillai (06:53.774) Wow. Utkarsh Narang (06:54.311) Those stories are still on like Instagram and Facebook and things like that. And what I define happiness, which I'll share in a bit, but what if you and I were to meet on that street one day and I'm about to take a picture of yours, how does Sanil describe happiness or the state of being happy? Sanil Pillai (07:09.924) Yeah, correct. I would say happiness is feeling good. Whenever you get feeling, I would say whenever you get moments of feeling good, that is a kind of happiness. So happiness to me is not monolithic. Happiness can come out of many different components. Happiness can come out of achievements. Happiness can come out of gratitude. Happiness can come out of you just smelling the roses or taking a walk on the street. Happiness can come out of watching a fun movie and just laughing a lot. Happiness can also come out of getting a promotion at work. Happiness can come out of winning the Olympics. They're all different kinds of happiness. But all of them, at the end of the day, the common denominator is you feel good. Some of them you get thrill. Some of them you just get relaxation. But I think as long as something is making you feel good, that's happiness. Utkarsh Narang (07:49.545) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (07:56.229) Yeah. Sanil Pillai (08:04.839) But I think one has to remember it's not really monolithic. It's not one thing, but many different components that come together. And each of them can give you happiness too. Utkarsh Narang (08:13.575) Love that. That's very thoughtful definition. One thing that I shared and this was, I remember day one, July 2nd, 2016, very thoughtfully etched in my memory. I was in a mall at that time and we were kind of, was my, so July 2nd is my birthday and we had a great dinner, family was all over and we were walking out towards our car. And being in India, highly dense population, there were a lot of people in that mall on that day. And I was... Sanil Pillai (08:22.329) Wow, yeah. Utkarsh Narang (08:42.429) Just imagining like, are these all seeking happiness through this feeling that they're getting by shopping or this feeling that they're getting from whatever? Is it kind of instant gratification and very momentary or is it a long-term definition? so what I, what emerged for me in that moment was that it is your ability to, for me, it is my ability to feel. Feel good, as you said, feel joy, but feel pain also. Feel... Sanil Pillai (08:51.436) and Sanil Pillai (09:10.296) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (09:12.339) Tragedy, tragedies also feel, losing someone also feel. So all this idea that the human experience allows us to feel, I think to me that was the definition of happiness in that moment. Sanil Pillai (09:25.816) Yeah, absolutely. And I think that is very true because if you try to pin down happiness as a single point in time, even for individuals, it's going to be very difficult. And even between today and yesterday, think what made me happy yesterday is probably not the same thing that made me happy today. You're very right. I think it's a varied experience. It all comes together. But at the of the day, think it's about an emotion. It's really about an emotion that you really experience. Utkarsh Narang (09:56.058) Beautiful. As you've shared about going through the big tech firms in the world that you've worked at and build teams at, and I was also seeing that you've done this certification in happiness from the Berkeley College. How have you seen that connect? Because what my perception also is, and maybe there are lot of listeners who listening on that front, is that it's a cutthroat environment. you have to get the funding, have get things right, you have to keep kind of growing, revenue, profit. So it is a lot about numbers. And sometimes people lose that happiness, lose that joy of working in the workplace. So how does the joy and happiness of life connect to joy and happiness at the workplace for you? Sanil Pillai (10:41.358) Yeah, it's a great question. And I think that question also stems from the stereotypical way that maybe people look at happiness too. I think when we think about happiness, there's always this notion about someone is smiling and walking, meandering on the road, and carefree and not worried about anything in life. And then you picture somebody you have to report at 9 o'clock to work, and that's like a stark contrast. And they're like, how did they both come together? I think the way to think about it again is at work, for example, if you think about it, regular workday, right? You are working on certain tasks which are on your plate and you need to get done. You have to deal with certain challenges in the workplace, maybe a coworker, maybe a manager. You have certain opportunities for growth in the workplace, right? Maybe it's trying to... you know, get this next project or maybe would work on a different team or whatever whatever growth looks like for you. And these three things typically come together in a workplace. And the idea of happiness in a workplace is how much can we be in the moment with these three things in a typical workday? And the extent to which we can really be in the moment getting these these three components done is our definition of happiness there, right? So that is what is meant by happiness in the workplace. which is really about well-being, which is really about being able to do your work the best, understanding that things are not perfect, understanding that there are some things you have to deal with, understanding that there are some challenges there, but you can still get work done, you still feel good about it, and you still get a sense of accomplishment, you get a sense of fulfillment. All those come together in the workplace, and that is happiness in the workplace. You may not get fulfillment when... You may not get accomplishment if you go shopping. If you go shopping, you get more fulfillment. You get happiness that you bought something. Maybe if you bargain hard and you get something, maybe that's accomplishment in some way. So the definitions of what really constitutes happiness in the workplace are different. And one needs to be cognizant that one has to be true to those definitions. And for example, if you have one of my clients that was coaching. Utkarsh Narang (12:57.929) Hmm. Sanil Pillai (13:03.258) had a real difficult time working through a PowerPoint presentation. So they had to make a presentation in two weeks, build it all together, review it and all of that stuff. But just some kind of a block, preventing them from doing it because they really didn't want to do it. They really didn't like that whole idea of presenting, et cetera. And what was missing in all of that was their own understanding of what is it in there? in it for them. What is the definition of joy for them in all of that? And they figured out that the joy for them is sense of completion. The sense that they've got it done. They don't have to worry about it anymore. And the fact, I mean, they thought about it, that itself was a kind of happiness for them. So I would say in a nutshell, the way you bridge that gap, the original question is, you have to understand what are the different markers that actually define happiness in the workplace? Utkarsh Narang (13:34.673) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (13:43.561) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (13:47.305) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (13:51.241) Got it. Got it. Sanil Pillai (14:03.246) and being true to that. And I think then one can experience happiness work with it. Utkarsh Narang (14:08.865) Love that perspective. so if I were to simplify it further, it's in different areas of life and maybe even different age groups, your definition of happiness could shift and you've got to re-optimize and reset to that definition to make you feel that joy is what we speaking about. And I think what this also brings me then is sometimes what happens, Sanil, is that as you say enter a workplace and Sanil Pillai (14:38.414) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (14:38.791) you enter as an individual contributor and you grow up and you become a people manager. I speaking to someone and that's where the conversation is stemming from is what that person, the chief business officer, they were saying, Utkarsh, people have not gone through the adulting process as a manager. It's like when you're in real life, adulting is hard. Similarly, when an organization, when you're growing up, the organization is growing up, you become manager to 15 people, to 20 people, you need a very different lens in that moment. And so what I'm understanding is that happiness in that moment will also change. What's your perspective on, on adulting in the workplace and, again, happiness around that. Sanil Pillai (15:17.668) So I think it's maybe, know, the person speaking put it really well is that, you know, it's a needed component of the workplace, right? So now there's some who like it, but they really don't have the mechanics, they don't know the mechanics of how to do it right. For them, it's more about training, making sure they get the right tools and resources and they will thrive, right? So adulting is not a problem for them, right? Because they like it, they just need to know how to do it. And then that's happiness for them, right? Utkarsh Narang (15:26.857) Hmm. Sanil Pillai (15:47.694) I think for some who really don't like it, right? So they're like, okay, this is not something I want to do. And I don't think I like this, this facet of, of working, et cetera. Then it's more of a question about, you know, are they in the right role? Is that something they want to do? All right. And what is the driver for being there? Because no matter how much they become successful at doing it, they'll never get a sense of happiness from it, right? Because something, so there's some, some bit of that. And we do that outside workplace too. Some things in life. We do it because of maybe social obligations, cultural needs, et cetera. But we really don't like doing it. And we never come to terms with it. We just figure out a way to cope with it in some way. So that's I would see is that if you like it, you just need to make sure they get the right resources and mechanics of how to do it. If you don't like it, then I think you have to question and see, is that even the right fit for what you're trying to do? Utkarsh Narang (16:42.321) It's almost like a skill will matrix is what you measure them on. And if it's a skill issue, you give them the skill, but you believe that they have the will power and the motivation to become adults in the workplace. Yeah. Fascinating. Fascinating. If you were to come back to your journey, where did coaching emerge for you personally? Because I've had these conversations with many coaches as well. Coaching strikes us as as lightning because I remember my first experience. Sanil Pillai (16:50.744) motivation the why is very far yeah absolutely Utkarsh Narang (17:09.863) When someone told me with Utkarsh, why don't you go and get yourself a coach? I was like, what the hell? don't, I don't need a coach and coaching is not important for me. But then when I went through the journey, it was beautifully eye opening that five years later, I ended up becoming a coach as well. But what was your kind of motivations to become a coach in your journey? Sanil Pillai (17:30.414) Yeah, so this is 2000, maybe late 2017 or so. And I was the head of innovation in a services company. a lot of my job was around creating next generation POCs and projects and concepts that we can show to clients and do all of that. And I was having a lot of fun doing that work. And I had a small team that I was managing. Somewhere along that journey, I think at some point, I don't know what was the main trigger, but I asked this very simple question. What do I want my next 10 years to look like? And I clearly remember that was the trigger point for change is what does my next 10 year look like? And there was the obvious answer is that I could just go do more and more stuff on the technology route and taking on bigger roles and stuff like that. But then... I also realized that everything I wanted to do, I always wanted to have a people component to it. And I realized so much so that I wanted that to be like the main thing I do. Some way to kind of be able to help people be more effective in their workplace, be more happy. And I said, I want to do something which makes that meaningful and that like the center stage of what I do for the next 10 years of my life. Now, at that point, very interesting, I never had a coach back then, right? And I was not aware of coaching as a profession too. That's when I started exploring and say, what does that even look like? Like, what does it mean to be able to help people in a professional setting, know, in workplace? Is it training? You know, what does that even look like? And that's when coaching as a profession emerged for me. And I deeper and deeper and tried to understand what the process looks like and what is the coach to, cetera. And then I was sold. said, this is what I want to be doing. And this is what I want to make the cornerstone of what my next 10 years will look like. And this is going to help me really make everything I do around people and around helping people. And I think that was a tipping point for me to kind of start this journey of becoming a coach and then getting my certification and all of that. Utkarsh Narang (19:45.693) Wow, I love this question. I've made a note of it. What do I want to be in the next 10... What do I want my next 10 years to look like? Wow, that's such a powerful question. I'm going to reflect on that. You know, part of me always feels that the future is so unpredictable that how do I even plan for that? Or how do I even kind of visualise slash imagine that? What's been your process? And I'll come back to the coaching journey, but I'm intrigued about this question. So want to kind of... digressed to. How do you really think about the next 10 years and after COVID and after whatever has happened to the world? Sanil Pillai (20:22.062) Yeah. wow. It's a pretty broad question and it can go in several different directions. I think if look at human beings in general and human psychology in general. I think human beings are going to remain and have the same set of problems and challenges and aspirations that they had for the past million years. And that's going to continue further. So that will not change. I think the need for human beings to be happy is not going to change for the next 10 years. And that I'm pretty sure about. And I can probably bet on that. So anything that can be done around that is very helpful. So that will remain the same. What I think would change in general in larger senses, because of new advent in technology, especially with generative AI that we've seen in the last couple of years, there is a potential that the nature of work itself might change. I mean, we always talked about the future of work, and that is always something that every HR analyst would like to talk about. But I think probably the inflection point is here right now. And there is a real need for us to understand what the future of work would look like if lot of the work that was meaningful to human beings are no longer available anymore, Then I think that will change what people are spending time with. And that could change what things can make them happy. Because the definition of fulfillment today might change to tomorrow. So I think the next 10 years, Utkarsh Narang (21:52.553) you Utkarsh Narang (22:01.993) Hmm. Sanil Pillai (22:04.89) you know, if I had a crystal ball, could extrapolate how I've seen changes happening. I think people, the way people spend time with work and what work looks like could materially change. as fulfillment, the definition of fulfillment could materially change. And there'll be a lot of different structures and frameworks and artifacts that will kind of spring up to help, you know, help people cope with that change and then eventually normalize it, right? Towards the next, towards the later part of the 10 years, I think. Utkarsh Narang (22:30.916) Mm. Sanil Pillai (22:34.772) That's what I think is going to be the biggest change. Utkarsh Narang (22:37.449) Got it. So think about it's almost like thinking about and just putting it into like a framework of sense for listeners to put into practice. Think about what's not going to change. Think about what's going to change. then based on how things are changing, what's the value that you can bring to the world is what we are kind of trying to define. And that's a great way to look at your next 10 years. Powerful, fascinating. In terms of coaching, what has been kind of... The most revealing understanding or insight that you've gained through your coaching experience. Sanil Pillai (23:15.903) about myself or? Utkarsh Narang (23:18.247) Ooh, let's do about yourself and then we can go to about human psychology. Sanil Pillai (23:23.364) Yeah. So I think about myself, what I found is I think I found through the coaching process that I like connecting dots. And my affinity for able to connect dots and be able to do it helps a lot of my clients. And I think that's something I found about myself is that take disparate things that probably the client is sharing and then be able to connect the dots. and see if there something happening there has helped a lot in the coaching. And so that's something about myself. also found that in everything I've done, I think coaching is something that gives a different kind of fulfillment. I haven't been able to name it yet, but you do a 30 minute session, even a 30 minute session, the kind of fulfillment you get at the end of it is not instant gratification. Right? It's something more deeper, something more wholesome, and something almost like an end state, right? You feel that, okay, this is what you're here for, right? And you've delivered that, right? There is nothing that needs to happen after that, correct? Versus like, know, if I was in technology, everything was always an end to the next means, right? You know, kind of deliver this project, that's okay, that helps you get a bigger project, et cetera. But coaching is different, different kind of fulfillment, very deep, very wholesome. Utkarsh Narang (24:41.865) Right. Sanil Pillai (24:48.894) And that's what I also realized. What I realized about, I think, lot of the clients I work with, I do a lot of leadership coaching and career. a lot of everything I talk about is mostly workplace related. What I found is that there is a need, clients definitely want help, different kinds of help, but there is more of a need for easy to use frameworks. Utkarsh Narang (24:51.113) Mm. Utkarsh Narang (25:17.265) Hmm. Yeah. Sanil Pillai (25:18.116) quick mental models that clients can quickly use and make it really usable in their day-to-day life. It is difficult for clients to digest long-form material and try to work through all of that and figure out what they need to do. They need framework that they can actually use, very pragmatic tools that they can quickly use because this is not their day job. They have a day job that this is supposed to help them. So I think... Utkarsh Narang (25:26.518) Yeah. Sanil Pillai (25:46.764) lot of the clients have realized if you give them something which is, even if it's profound transformation they're going through, they need quick mental models and frameworks and that really helps the process. And I think workplace, one thing I've commonly noticed, burnout is a very common problem. Across the board, you experience that in different ways, at different levels of seniority too. It's pretty common and very surprising to some times. Not surprising in the sense that as a coach, you're always supposed to... Utkarsh Narang (25:56.488) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (26:08.743) Hmm. Yeah. Sanil Pillai (26:16.546) understand and know it exists and I've been in this industry for so long but surprising that in spite of all the resources and the tools available, Burnout Digital Initiative, right? And I think that's something that I've seen a lot of. Utkarsh Narang (26:30.653) Yeah, powerful. Thank you for sharing that. as you, mean, part of like, almost like for me, this conversation is we started on happiness. We moved into coaching and how it deeply impacts the individual. And I think what you were just saying about that it's not like an end, what's next is not there in coaching. It's like what you achieved in those 30 minutes or one hour is a hole, it seems. And I think I'm trying to put a word to that. don't have that word, but I understand the sense of wholeness that you're speaking about in a coaching conversation. But then you spoke about AI. So if you were to get into that space for a bit, and I've heard a lot of conversations around it, but I don't believe that it's going to be replacing coaches in any way. But what's your sense of the dance between AI and coaching in the future? Sanil Pillai (27:29.282) Yeah. So I think the first, so there are going to be different levels at which AI and coaching kind of meet, right? The first level that we already see happening today is where AI can provide, you know, they can be a very strong assistant co-pilot for coaches to help them with lot of the administrative stuff, right? Simple things like note-taking, for example, you know, recommending resources for their clients, et cetera. It's a great assistive tool for coaches to use and that can save a lot of their time. And I think that is where the first set of value is going to be, right? And then that I think you'll see a lot of products coming in that space and there's some already in place. So that'll go. The next level is less about coaches. It's more about the individual who is getting coached. If they get comfortable with a tool, if they get comfortable with a coach who can help them. At some point, if AI-related interactive tools are pretty common across the board, individuals will get very used to having a coach who is just an AI too. But it's all about adoption. Today, don't think individuals are very comfortable with that, and they need an individual they want to talk to, and actual coach they want to talk to. But it's all a matter of change. Once there is a general acceptance that an AI-based tool can help me through my process because it can understand me, it can have a conversation with me. Very soon, people may not care and they say, this is going to work as good as an actual person because they cannot really discern the difference. And that, I think with technology, the way it is moving, I don't think that's impossible and I think it might be inevitable in the next few years. Utkarsh Narang (29:21.705) Beautiful, beautiful. That's some food for thought as to how do you then evolve as a coach and on that journey because ultimately the coach or the customer in this case is going to be at the center of things. And if it makes easy for them to access information, access guidance, access support, access building that self-awareness through some tools, yeah, they're going to opt for it. Sanil Pillai (29:45.486) Yeah, I think that's something we have to, I remember I was at the last ICF conference in Florida and there were two sessions on AI and coaching and I think those are the most packed and the most vibrant of sessions. A lot of questions around it because like what does it mean for my profession? I think these are right questions to ask a little early in the game but I think every coach needs to think about it and it's a tool. Utkarsh Narang (29:45.993) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (30:00.039) Yeah, I can imagine. Utkarsh Narang (30:05.095) Yeah. Yeah. Sanil Pillai (30:11.962) And so as other professions that are getting impacted, think we are not going to be immune to that impact. Utkarsh Narang (30:16.829) Yeah, yeah, fascinating. Great. As we move towards the final end of our conversation, you spoke about connecting the dots, Sanil. So maybe if we were to now, we reflected upon the eight-year-old Sanil talking to you right now. What if we were to go a few decades into the future and there comes a moment when the 80-year-old Sanil looks back and looks at you right now? What advice would that Sanil have for you? Sanil Pillai (30:39.951) Yeah. Sanil Pillai (30:46.733) I think one would be don't be in hurry to reach here. Take your time, just slow down, don't be in hurry. You're going to come here anyway, so take it easy. I think literally, and I would say literally there's not much we can do about it. We are going to move at a pace, we're going to move at a pace to the future. But I think metaphorically, there is probably something to be said there. And that is, think the process of learning and growth is as much about enjoying the Utkarsh Narang (30:49.865) I love that. Sanil Pillai (31:16.416) you know as much about enjoying the actual process learning and growth as much as the end state right so slowing down and and you know that thing i'm sure the advice is going to be that yeah you know i did this bunch of things and you know there was a lot of challenges i had to face and figure it out and you know and then there was some anxious moments and uncertain moments etc all of that was great but none of that mattered at the end what mattered is as you work through those uncertain moments and the anxious moment and when you have these pockets of Utkarsh Narang (31:39.785) you Sanil Pillai (31:45.866) happiness that you could derive, did you actually use them? And that is going to only happen if you slow down, if you actually from time to time take the current moment. I think that is going to be the advice is slow down and really take in the moments as you're going through the journey. Utkarsh Narang (32:02.963) Beautiful, beautiful. So everyone who's listening, slow down. We're going to reach our 80-year-old selves at some point anyway. We might or might not, but in that process, just slow down and take your time. There's no hurry to get there. Enjoy the process while you also wait for that end state to have fun with. Insightful. Thank you, Sanil I truly appreciate you being here and sharing all this wisdom. Maybe before we let you go, what's exciting you right now? Sanil Pillai (32:32.954) So along with coaching, I am also doing this project of building an AI-based tool for job seekers to help. And so you talked about AI. So I think that is very exciting to me is to kind of combine AI. And it also has coaching components in it to kind of help job seekers through the process. So I think what's most exciting for me today is the confluence of AI and how it can help coaching. Utkarsh Narang (32:41.94) Yeah. Sanil Pillai (32:59.706) There's a lot of promise, right? Even before we get to the fear factor of what it does to coaches, a lot of promise and lot of things that can be achieved through that. And I think that to me really keeps me very excited, right? So I think that's me at this Utkarsh Narang (33:14.235) Amazing. Thanks so much. And then we'll put all the links in the show notes for people to reach out to you on LinkedIn and beyond and look forward to many conversations. Thank you for your time today. Sanil Pillai (33:22.746) Thank you guys for having me. Bye. Bye. Utkarsh Narang (33:25.361) Take Care, bye.