Utkarsh Narang (00:02.092) My guest today is someone who's spent her life, 38 years, chasing the truth. And not just chasing the truth in terms of writing amazing pieces for magazines, for outlets across the world, but she wrote a book where she, in a way, think, put her heart out how her family history defines something that she would absolutely speak about us in the podcast. And what my hypothesis today is that we'll speak about how you need a lot of courage to tell the truth. and the soul it takes to put your heart out. Welcome, Roni to the conversation. I'm looking forward to what emerges. Roni Robbins (00:37.175) Thank you. I am too. Thank you. Utkarsh Narang (00:41.048) Amazing. So, Roni at the podcast, you the first question that we want to kind of deep dive into is to take you back a few decades. And the question that we begin with is, if that eight-year-old Roni, the eight-year-old girl wherever you were growing up, if that eight-year-old were to come and meet you right now, what kind of a conversation would emerge between the two of you? Roni Robbins (01:04.355) think the biggest lesson that I would give myself if I was 80, the characters in my novel are 80, would be just to... eight, eight, eight, eight year old, sorry. eight year old speaking at that point what an eight year old would tell me now. Yeah, okay. Utkarsh Narang (01:13.666) I'm gonna take you back. I'm gonna take you back. Eight year old. Starting with the eight year old. Yes. Yes. Utkarsh Narang (01:31.342) Correct. So she comes and meets you right now. Both of you are having a conversation. The eight year old you and the present you. What kind of a conversation will emerge? Roni Robbins (01:33.465) I would say... Mm-hmm, sure. Am I ever going to be confident? I ever going to feel popular? Am I ever going to whatever that was supposed to mean at the time? What am I ever going to be successful? Are my parents always going to be there to help me? These would be my questions that emerge. What is life like in the future would be definitely what There would be some certain chockers, but what are you, am I going to be a famous musician or poet? Am I ever gonna like to read the newspaper? Cause I don't right now. I don't actually like reading right now. I'm slow reader. Will I ever, will that ever change? Will a boy ever like me? Utkarsh Narang (02:41.07) Mmm. Roni Robbins (02:41.881) Will I ever have lots of friends or not or everything that's important to me now? Will it still be important to me then? So those, I think those would, it was definitely a simpler time. So yes. Utkarsh Narang (03:00.142) It was. But these are some very deep, thought-provoking questions that you're asking. And so if I were to pick maybe one of them, what is life like at the age that you are? What will you explain to that eight-year-old? How will you explain the current state of the world to that eight-year-old who is just oblivious to everything that's happened? Roni Robbins (03:26.347) You will be shocked to know that you don't need to be connected to the line on the phone. You don't have to go around the corner to get away from your family so that you can talk to somebody. You may still want to do that, but you, there won't be any wires attached to your technology. You'll be able to talk to people by the phone and by other Things called computers, which you didn't have then. Roni Robbins (04:01.913) you'll be able to watch movies in your home and not have to go to the movie theater to watch them. You may or may not like that. You'll be able to read books on a computer or on a screen and not physically touch the books if that's what you want to do. You won't actually need to get the newspaper anymore. You can look at it online, which is, you won't know what that means, but. That would be a screen of some sort. So like picture your television screen, very small and mobile. You could walk around with it. But you just can't imagine that you could, you don't have to ask if somebody's gonna accept a collect call. You just call and you'll be able to talk to people all over the world if you have a certain plan without that costing a lot of money. So. Utkarsh Narang (04:47.021) Mmm. Utkarsh Narang (04:55.713) Yeah. Roni Robbins (04:58.197) it will be certainly shocking. Utkarsh Narang (05:00.589) Yeah, 100%. I can't imagine what technology and what the world has evolved and gone through in the last few decades. Something that comes to mind is just overall, you've had about fourty years of your career writing and producing content that's amazing and spread across the world. Roni Robbins (05:03.395) technology. Utkarsh Narang (05:25.517) I'm just also intrigued to learn from that lens. How have you seen the world really evolve over these 38 years in terms of, A, first let's talk about how do you see the globe overall, the sociopolitical, the fragmentation, the connection, all of that, and then maybe on the career as well. Roni Robbins (05:48.997) So how it's evolved is I think I grew up very naive and when I started in the industry, I wrote for a print newspaper and that was all there was. And it's evolved that way in terms of the world has gotten really a lot smaller. We're able to know what's going on much quicker. everything that you could ever want is online. We used to have to go to consult an encyclopedia, a book or card catalog in the library and look things up in that way in a very old fashioned way. So news is quick, it's immediate. There's so much information out there that I couldn't have imagined. And It also means that you're responsible for making sure that you have the most up-to-date information. I think a news story when I was starting out was just capturing that particular moment in time as you knew it. Now you've got to know so much more. There's so much more expectations of, say, a journalist to really know what's going on and not... There's no excuse for not because it's all out there. So, and, there's so many ways to get information. So while I was trained to be a journalist, there's a lot of journalists that just decide one day they're going to be a journalist. So there's a lot of competition. There's a lot of bloggers. There's a lot of people that claim to be news reporters or to claim to be, writers. And I mean, just the lines have blurred. There weren't, I was naive in another way and that was that I didn't know about wars going on in the world. We knew this was before my time in Vietnam, but in my, when I was growing up, there was Cold War, but. Roni Robbins (08:00.041) We knew a little bit about what was going on in the world, not so immediate. It probably would have taken a while to hear it. And we would have had to depend on the news reports. It wouldn't have been splashed all over. And you you have so many ways to get your news today. And back then it was either the television, 60 minutes, the news of the day, depending on where you were, your local newspaper. Utkarsh Narang (08:28.279) Hmm. Roni Robbins (08:28.383) So, or the radio, but again, thing, it trickled to you very slowly. So. Utkarsh Narang (08:35.681) Yeah. And that also makes me think that, so is, the world, was the world unsafe earlier and is safer now? Or because what I think is like, now, if anything happens on any part of the world, there is about a billion TikToks, Instagrams, Facebooks and whatnot. That's get, that gets created. So just one event and no event is small. I'm not saying that, but one event could lead to like a a massive ripple effect in terms of the content that's created around it and then how people talk about it and how it becomes like the center of existence. And I'm just imagining now if say I was alive during World War II, if there is a bombing happening in some part of the world, I would not know about it till maybe 24 hours, maybe one week, maybe even longer. And so how has that shifted how we understand the truth? Roni Robbins (09:31.491) The truth is where you go to get the information, I think, nowadays. I think whereas authority figures of some sort, journalists were valued, I think, more as the watchdogs of a political system of government and the world. And now there's so many ways you can get that information and journalists are not valued. It doesn't, like I said, it doesn't matter. It does to me, but it doesn't matter who's claiming to be a reporter or a news gatherer. You know, their credibility wouldn't be the same as mine having been trained as a journalist, having strong ethics about being a journalist. We have so many. labels that are thrown away around today, fake news. We saw where the political reporters are resigning because they're being told what news to give to the public now. PR, press releases we've always had, but it's our job to sift through and get to the, that's the word, The truth without bias, biases. Biases would be termed editorial everything else should be in legitimate publications whether that's online radio TV You have to really research who you're gonna depend on for your truth or the truth the The way I was trained there was no your feelings, there were no, you just kept everything out of it. And if it snuck in there, it wasn't gonna get in print. Utkarsh Narang (11:31.394) Yeah, it's a really fascinating world that we live in because there's this information overload, but there's also a lot of information that's being spread based on who it serves. And it's a conflict I think none of us can fully resolve. We can all do maybe fact checks, maybe things on how we receive news, but it's still a very challenging task. gonna move to very soon is about your book because I'm intrigued to learn more about what that is about and how did that come about because writing something hands of gold, if the name's correct. Yeah, yeah. So hands of gold. I'm intrigued with that. But before we get there, spending 38 years in any career, to me, someone who's in 20 years had about five, to me, that's a representation of... A, you love what you do. So 38 years in one career is absolutely fascinating. The second thing is that you have a lot of resilience because I'm sure that those 38 years were not linear growth. They were, there would have been hard times and good times for people who are in the workforce right now, 25, 30 years old, starting off first few years. And they're already feeling like, what the hell am I doing? Just take us through that, that 30, and I know 38 years is too long to like, take through a podcast, but just take us through the highs and lows of those 38 years. What allowed you to stay kind of on that path and then what happened through that journey to you. Roni Robbins (13:06.457) So only in journalism we're talking. Yeah, so I have loved it and I'm very persistent. I've had opportunities to do other things. I've had opportunities to go into PR. It just never surfaced. It never worked its way out. So I feel like I'm being guided by a power beyond my control. Utkarsh Narang (13:08.652) Yes. Roni Robbins (13:33.577) I've considered other paths. I considered being a Weight Watchers teacher. They just didn't, it didn't work out. So I stayed on this path. Now in terms of how hard or easy it's been, no, it has not been easy. I've had bosses that yelled at me. I've had, you have to have a thick skin in this industry. I've been told that I'm not that good at writing or, know, or let's say I don't think you'll be a feature reporter. Years later, you know, I was a features reporter. I never thought I'd be a copy editor. sort of, you know, I became an editor. I never thought that was gonna happen. 2008, I had to go online and, you know, I was trained in print, but everything was online and I still wanted to get paid my worth. for having the skills that I had developed in the previous years, know, decades. I, and, but the newspapers, the publications were paying a cent a word, you know, very few cents a word. And I didn't think that I had to find how I could make the money that I was used to before everything went .com. I also had to learn how to write for .com. Utkarsh Narang (15:00.749) Mm. Roni Robbins (15:00.877) you know, nobody refers to it as that, but that was what was going on and that transition that was difficult. So, you know, I was a cub reporter and I had a heart at one point and I had to take some grunt work. I had to do 5 a.m. to 5 a.m. shifts. It began at 5 a.m. I had to cover crimes before police were there. So there was some definite safety concerns. You don't always get a police officer on scene of something before you are there. So that can be scary. You know, you're talking to criminals. You're talking to people that don't like you. Lately, you talk to people who don't like the media or don't like me for my religion. If they can tell or if they suspect. So I haven't really had any incidents like that, but I know that other media have gotten it. And I think everyone's, I hate when somebody says, the media. I'm like, which media? Because like, I don't want to be lumped in with media, whatever that's supposed to mean. That's media that you don't agree with media. So, but. Utkarsh Narang (16:13.293) Hmm. Roni Robbins (16:26.477) But yes, I have definitely transitioned through the industry, the ups and downs of the industry. I was laid off for the first time later on in my career after I felt like I reached a pinnacle of, so, and I know I'm not gonna name names, but I was very happy where I was. I was very proud of where I was. This was the last position that I had at this point, but I know that there's downsizing going on across the board. And that is very hard. How do you build yourself up again? Six months after I was downsized for financial reasons, not because of what I did, obviously, because six months later I started writing for them again, but as a freelancer. And I freelance for two publications now, both in the healthcare arena. I would say a lot of, I would say journalists are... being downsized and so that's common. I think a lot of industries are being downsized, so it's not just media. So we're going through that right now. Utkarsh Narang (17:28.683) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And what would be like maybe the top three mental models or how you were able to reframe your thinking through this whole journey, whether you were laid off, whether the there was a shift in how the world was working from a lot of print media, 100 % print media to dot com. What were a few mental models that you think were super helpful for you? That would be worth for someone who is maybe right now going through. AI taking them on in different ways. Roni Robbins (18:04.377) AI and also the pandemic shifted things and I bowed out of the full time when I was raising my children. So that's a challenge for women, how to manage that and got back in. So my advice for younger people, stay the course, develop a thick skin. I think people give up so easily. in marriage and I've been married for 30 years so I've seemed to have mastered that one to 31 years. I just did 31 years. we'll talk about my book but my grandparents were married 65 years, my parents were married 60 years, almost 60 years. So I don't know what it takes. Certain people are able to persist despite the ups and downs of life but. I feel like a younger generation, and I hate to say it like this, because maybe it's individual, or maybe give up easy. Maybe I found it even in other areas of life, people give up easy. It may not just be marriage or career, but when the going gets tough. What are you, are you gonna get tough with it or are you gonna get going or that's the cliche, but, or you are gonna bow out and say, nope, enough, I don't wanna be, I don't wanna take this anymore. And how much are you willing to take? If you love your career, then it doesn't matter what comes out of somebody's mouth about it. And. And people may tell you you're not good enough along the way. And right after they tell you that you're not good enough, somebody else will say, wow, you're amazing. And you'll find your way. So, you know, just stay the course, you know? Stay the course. If you can. I don't know. I put up with a lot more than a lot of people put up with, I would say. And I don't know. I think that comes from my grandparents, which we can talk about. Utkarsh Narang (19:54.925) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (20:02.189) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (20:06.679) Yeah. Roni Robbins (20:21.611) You you can change careers a lot of times or you can stay the course, I guess. There's no one way. Utkarsh Narang (20:28.013) Yeah. Yeah. Correct. Correct. No, I love that. And I think as you were saying this, what was coming to me was, I think it's just a staying the course sometimes gets really hard, but we give up at the moment when maybe the results are coming or about to come. think the second thing I'm seeing a lot, Roni, is that the world on at least social media makes you feel that everyone's succeeding, but you're not. And I think that's the big, like that's where you need to kind of step back and just analyze as to what, what you're doing. Because, it seems like, for example, I'll take my example. And as we're building this podcast, it seems, all the podcasts in the world have like a million followers. What are we doing with 1000? And then it comes to me is that everyone's been in the journey for a different phase, for a different state, for a different reason, through different parts, whatever you want to call that. And And the success for us could be very different from what it is for them. And yes, we need the outer success. We need that at the end of the day, but you got to define your. So, so I think stepping back is super important to see that you're still growing. And what you said about when someone tells you like, Oh, you're not good at this. Five minutes later, someone can tell you like, Oh, you're amazing at something else. And so just, think that like having that almost like 30,000 view and then the street view of how you're pursuing your passions, your work. That sounds amazing. You used a phrase there, if you love your career, how does one fall in love with the career? Roni Robbins (22:05.261) I mean, it starts early on. For some people, again, not everyone finds their way as quickly as I did. I don't even know if that's quick. I've heard from other people who start much earlier. I started in high school. Utkarsh Narang (22:09.815) Correct. Yeah. Roni Robbins (22:18.629) in my senior year of high school and I really haven't swayed. I majored in journalism. I worked myself up the newspaper in college and I worked my way up the career stages in life. And so I'm... I've also been a leader of different groups along the way, I take initiative to lead when nobody else leads in certain ways. I'm mentoring my second. student, journalism student, I just mentored her today from my alma mater. You know, I'm giving back in that way. My mom goes, are you getting paid? I'm like, no, I'm not getting paid. I don't get paid. I don't get paid for everything I do. But you know, I feel like I'm, I wish somebody would have mentored me more and they did, but not in college. So I think it's great that students can talk to Utkarsh Narang (23:03.373) you Roni Robbins (23:19.899) just some older folks that have been through the trenches and talk about it. Yeah, it's not an easy field being a journalist and you don't make much money. So you better love it. You better love it. Because or else why weren't you an engineer? Why didn't you fall in love with that? Because there's other people who fell in love with being engineers. Utkarsh Narang (23:37.677) Hmm. Roni Robbins (23:43.157) I don't know exactly why people love what they love. I can't figure it out. But for me, was, this is, I love it. I love it. I enjoy it. And I wouldn't want to do anything else. And I've been swayed to try to like, this is a dying industry. And you know, I've heard that from people who are much more practical than I am. I can't help it. That's what I like to do. Utkarsh Narang (23:46.997) Yeah. Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (24:10.679) Yeah. Yeah. That's amazing. And I think what it gives me, and this could be a great reflection for our listeners, is that if you feel that you've not yet fallen into love with your career or with what you do, maybe it's time to A, reframe that and see if there are any other parts of that same profession that you can get into, that same career that you can get into. And if not, it's absolutely okay to change because what I feel, Roni, is that we spend... lot of time at work. Like if I were to remove our sleeping hours, which hopefully is seven hours every day for everyone, we're left with like 110 odd hours. And after that, like 50 % goes into work. So we got to, we better love what we do because otherwise it'll be a, it'll be a really long career, really long life to live through. Yeah. As I'm now thinking about like the book, what I'm understanding is that A, it's inspired and story of your grandparents through the Holocaust, through all the challenges that they had faced and they were migrants. What prompted you? When was that moment when you just taken back to that moment when you thought that, I need to tell this story to the world. Roni Robbins (25:25.657) So at first I was listening to cassette tapes that my grandfather left and I thought, of course, but it's personal to me. It touched me, but that's just me who cares. That's just how I felt about this. But I wrote a column. At first I wrote a column about driving around and listening to a cassette tape that don't even exist anymore probably, but. But I was, and we had cassette tape players in the car, would you believe? But I was listening to it, I was inspired by it, I wrote a column, and I thought there's more to this that I'd like to write. I touched on it, and I just took a chance, really, that other people would be. Utkarsh Narang (25:57.047) Mm. Roni Robbins (26:17.205) Interested in what I thought stood out to me with this story as any story that's pitched to me You know, I go I'm a storyteller I look for stories all the time to pitch or to write and how to write Stories and how to sell the story so people will read all the way through it so I know how to do that and this sounded like a story because They they died. My grandparents died on the same date of each other a year apart and they were the same age when they died. That was the initial spark that I thought, wow. that is love, that you would die on the same date of each other, you know, that when the anniversary of the death came up, that was it. That was your, you were, I can't take it anymore, I'm going to her. You know, my grandfather said, you know, my grandmother said, tie up loose ends and meet me in heaven. Well, it took him a whole year, but on that anniversary was when he departed. And I just thought that was beautiful. I know in a weird way, I mean, they died. Of course it was sad, but I thought that. was something that would pull at people's heartstrings. But what went into that life that they were so in love with each other and what did they go through together? And I also learned a few other things as I went along. And that was my grandfather was a clinical trial patient for streptomycin, which was used to treat tuberculosis. it's still, it inspired the medicines of today and it's still used today. So he was Roni Robbins (27:55.609) hero in that way is that if it wasn't for him we wouldn't have all these modern treatments for tuberculosis which is still the largest infectious disease killer in the world and he saved people in a workplace shooting spree that was written about in the New York Daily News which ironically I ended up freelancing for them. you know, 50, 60 years later after this article was in the paper in 1958. So I had documents of these certain things. I knew that they lost all their, most of their family in the Holocaust, but those certain things that made my grandfather stand out that were documented, I thought would make a beautiful family. and love story that others could relate to. And I didn't realize how much they could relate to it, that this immigrant story of survival was very similar to what other families had gone through at the time. Anyone who had a grandparent or a parent that came here from Europe and settled in New York, you know, huge place. A lot of people have relatives there, especially who are Jewish. You know, there's references to Canada and New Jersey and people will find their own relatives in this book. So did I know all of that then when I started? No, I just thought I had a love story. Utkarsh Narang (29:23.211) Hmm. Roni Robbins (29:31.691) I had some interesting things that happened to them and I was gonna take a chance and see if I could use my storytelling skills for a different branch of my writing career. I had no idea that it would, how long it would take to get published. Again, it took me seven years to write the book on and off, raising my kids, freelancing, and then 13 years to find a professional publisher and... Utkarsh Narang (29:42.219) you Roni Robbins (29:59.585) I lost my first publisher and six months later I gained another publisher. So staying the course, I have some kind of persistence to, and I'm thankful for that, but I didn't know that the book would ever get published. Or if I had to have to, for me, it felt like I was giving up if I self-published and then I would be subjecting my friends and family to read my book. Utkarsh Narang (30:08.973) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (30:16.62) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (30:27.799) Mm. Roni Robbins (30:28.473) It turned out well for me, but I had to wait to get to this point. It's won six awards. It's in the Holocaust Museum. It's been written about in Washington and Jerusalem and other publications. I was on a big stage with big name authors that I could never have dreamed about that. But I had to stay the course to get to that golden ticket to get that point, to get that. Utkarsh Narang (30:57.653) Love it. Love it. And he said seven years to write and 13, did I hear that right? 13 to wait for a publisher. Roni Robbins (31:06.593) Well, to not wait, you know, to keep on sending out. Utkarsh Narang (31:10.295) Correct. Yeah. Roni Robbins (31:11.613) Letters and you know correspondence and I got some 50 rejection letters, you know I mean how many rejections does a normal person put up with? You know, so You know, I have a thick skin and I wasn't gonna take no because I you hear this all you need is one Yes, how many knows are you willing to put up with and and now it's part of my story I thought I had 200 rejections, but I counted them and they were 50 and who knows who didn't respond Utkarsh Narang (31:39.469) Hmm Roni Robbins (31:41.419) So that's all part of my, you know, experience. And, you know, like you said, you can look at the other authors who are much more popular than I am. There's that word again, who are, you know, selling, you know, who are on New York Times bestsellers and, you know, who are getting a lot more attention. I can look at all that or I can say I did something amazing with my own life. I had some successes. I'm not giving up. I'm not saying that. I'm just saying at saying, obviously, I'm not giving up. And it doesn't matter when your book came out. You can still push it, but you can still promote it and get people to read it. But But you know, there's comparison, competition is tough for a person who's competitive. It is. But it motivates it. Competition with everyone else who's out there whose life seems much more amazing than mine does, you know. But, you know, can I just take a moment to be happy? You know, you can drive yourself insane. Utkarsh Narang (32:31.149) company. Utkarsh Narang (32:35.533) Hmm. Hmm Roni Robbins (32:49.581) you know, everyone achieves what they're supposed to achieve. This was meant to be for me and it wasn't my time back when I finished writing the book or I wasn't supposed to be a quick project. It was supposed to be a, you know, a long haul, you know. Utkarsh Narang (33:06.824) Yeah. Yeah. So, so many, so many nuggets that I can pull out for, for the listeners, because what he said, the last thing that he said is competition is tough for people who are competitive. I absolutely agree with that. And, and if you keep, I think if you keep looking for that, the external validation, then, then the joy of writing a book, then the joy of getting a job, then the joy of building a startup, all of that disappears because you're all the time just worried about Roni Robbins (33:08.857) So, see you Roni Robbins (33:18.273) Mm-hmm Utkarsh Narang (33:33.186) What is someone else doing and how can I compete or compare myself with that? So I think it's a very internal competition that both of us are alluding to and nudging to. The second thing you spoke about was that you started writing the book and you had no idea what was going to happen. And like you had a vision that the book needs to go out, but what would you uncover in all of that? And brings back this memory from a guest we had on the first episode. And she said, you don't need to see your way all the way through. Because if you're seeing your way all the way through, then you're walking someone else's path. And to be able to craft your own path, you have to just take one step at a time, one step at a time. So anyone who's listening, who's trying to build the marriage that they're in, who's trying to build a career that they're in, who's writing a book, who's trying to build a career in sports, entertainment, whatever that looks like, just keep taking the next step because you cannot see your way through because the journey that you're on, you can absolutely learn from others, but it's a very unique journey. It's very unique journey. As I was listening to you, Roni, what was coming to me was just writing the book and sharing the story. What impact did that have on you as a person, as a human being? Roni Robbins (34:46.379) I definitely appreciate that I'm a person who sticks with a project and doesn't give up. When I started out, I didn't see myself as an author, only a journalist. I was trained to be a journalist. I had no idea that I would become an editor at the end of my career. I'm not done yet, but where I'm at now, I never thought that that would be what would... come in my future that I would edit other people's work. And then I never thought I'd be an author. like I said, I started out not liking to read. I mean, I like to read, but it took me a while to get through. books. It probably still does. But I had some reading comprehensive issues that made me have to slow down early on. I didn't like reading the newspaper, which is shocking today to hear any of this. But I did realize what good writing is early on, what writing inspired me, what I had to, by reading so slow and reading the same line over and over again, it really sticks with you, I think a little bit more. But yeah, I had to get through some challenges of my own in that way. It's hard for me to even think of that I had those issues back then. I sort of laugh at the fact that I didn't like to read a newspaper and I didn't want to take a certain AP class because it involved reading the newspaper. It's just really crazy that, you know, I love reading the newspaper now. So what are you going to do? But yeah, yeah. Utkarsh Narang (36:33.453) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (36:38.285) And do you read the digital version or do you get still the physical version of the newspaper? Roni Robbins (36:44.289) I read the digital version too. I'm reading all the time. I'm reading so much. Yeah, online also to keep up with my work and but but I am proud of it. I will tell you that I'm proud of my journey. I have to take time to Utkarsh Narang (36:46.113) Got it. Got it. Okay, amazing. Yeah. Yeah. Roni Robbins (37:03.609) It's hard to pat yourself on the back when you're too busy looking ahead of what needs to happen next. And I do think you can be motivated by others who have had success and hope for that. It's still okay to dream that that would be you. I'm still the same girl who wanted to be popular. It's still the same concept. And people will be like, are you making any money? And the answer is, I don't make any money anyway. I didn't shoot. Utkarsh Narang (37:09.357) Yeah. Roni Robbins (37:33.473) I didn't know this at the time, but I didn't choose a career that would make money. I don't make a lot of money. I'd rather not know what everyone else makes actually because it's depressing. But I'm okay with that because for me, fame is important. People reading my writing and enjoying it and learning something and being inspired by it and going, wow, it still has the same effect. And there's really no money that... you know, would provide that for me. It wouldn't be about money. It wouldn't be about things. It would always be about credentials and knowing that I'm, you know, walking the path that God intended for me. And that people are, you know, they are enriched by it in some way. So that's where I'm going for. I'm trying to get hands of gold and more golden hands, not to make money, but to just have more people reading my work. Utkarsh Narang (38:46.935) Beautiful. To everyone who's listening right now, and still with us, 40th minute into the conversation, just pause and give yourself a pat on the back. Because what Roni said, I think it's really hard. It's really hard. do, all of us, all, and I say all 8.5 odd billion people on the world, we are going through our own stories, our own struggles, our own challenges. And part of me starting the podcast was like, I was always questioning like, Why does the world need another podcast? Why does the world need more content, right? There's enough content in the world for us to never finish listening to. And then I thought that when I have a conversation with Roni in the 45th or whatever number episode, or when I have a conversation with so-and-so at number 27, they're all going to be unique conversations and no one can replicate that conversation. And when Roni and Utkarsh go out of that conversation, they would have shifted or changed. I don't know how, but somehow. So everyone. you're listening, give yourself a pat on the back for you, what you're building right now, what you're going through, what you're cherishing, what you are grateful for, all of that, all of that. I needed this today to give myself a pat. I'll actually give myself a pat on the back. Well done, Uttakush, for staying on the journey. As we move forward a few decades from now, Roni, now we go to that 80-year-old, the eight zero-year-old Roni. Roni Robbins (39:45.721) Mm-hmm. Roni Robbins (39:59.897) Let's do that. Yes. Roni Robbins (40:07.491) Mm-hmm. Utkarsh Narang (40:11.341) If 80 year old Roni were to come and meet you right now and give you one piece of advice on how to live the rest of your years, what would that 18 year old say? Roni Robbins (40:11.449) Mm. Roni Robbins (40:21.827) Don't worry so much, it'll work out okay. Don't worry what people think of you. And I think I'd also say try to appreciate the people around you because they might not be there. And that's pretty sad, but I don't think you envision that the people around you might not be there anymore. Utkarsh Narang (40:27.853) Nobody. Roni Robbins (40:42.477) that they'll go in and out of your life. just in this little circle of life. You can't even imagine like moving out of it when you're young. So it will change. So we have to change with it. Utkarsh Narang (40:58.487) Don't worry so much. Everything's going to work out. Yeah. Roni Robbins (41:00.023) Yeah, don't worry. I'd like to say that to myself right now too. It's a constant. Yeah, yeah, certain people just don't let it get to them. Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (41:04.749) Yeah. It's a constant reminder. I think. Yeah, I think I need a I need a tattoo here on my arm. Don't worry, Utkarsh. You got this, man. You got this. It's such simple advice, but it's so hard to practice because again, all the time we're so engaged with what's going on. I think the dichotomy I start to think a lot about, Roni, is that we've become human doings instead of human beings. Roni Robbins (41:16.843) Yeah, yeah, yep. Roni Robbins (41:35.257) Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, for sure. You know, when I was growing up, we didn't have mental health. They just knocked it right out of you anyway. So, you know, just, we didn't even have that term. They didn't even exist. just was, snap out of it. What's going on? I don't know. Change your, change your mind. Change, you know, get your, my dad used to say, Utkarsh Narang (41:36.489) I think that's really challenging for all of us. Utkarsh Narang (41:51.275) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (41:59.383) Yeah. Roni Robbins (42:02.105) Get your head on straight. I never really understand what that means, but just try to focus on the right now. Utkarsh Narang (42:09.707) Yeah. That's all we got. But thank you for this beautiful conversation, Roni. I enjoyed the experience and hopefully our listeners did too. To everyone who's listening with us and still with us, you've spent 45 minutes on something that I'm assuming you would have enjoyed and that's why you're still here. Share with someone who needs this reminder that let's not worry about anything. We all got this. Give ourselves a pat on the back. Be competitive with our own selves, but not with others while we stay kind. Roni Robbins (42:14.359) Yep. Thank you. Utkarsh Narang (42:43.021) Try to find a way to love your career. That's what Roni and I spoke about. And stay the course. Develop that thick skin and don't give up. Don't give up. You got this. And to the eight year old in all of us, we live in a very complex, ever evolving world, but we all got this. Thank you, Roni, for this beautiful time. See you soon. Roni Robbins (43:01.017) Thank you. Appreciate it. I did too.