Utkarsh Narang (00:01.196) Welcome to another episode of the IgnitedNeurons podcast. Today I'm joined by a co-coach, someone who is on a very similar journey, but has very beautiful nuances to that journey that I'm hoping to explore in the conversation today. My hypothesis, and this is something that, Rashmir, I do with my listeners all the time, based on how much I know of you right now, my hypothesis is that we will speak about burnout, we will speak about authenticity, we will speak about leadership, and there'll be... Rashmir Balasubramaniam (00:25.108) . Utkarsh Narang (00:29.56) beautiful life lessons, nuggets that hopefully our listeners can take away and put that into practice. Welcome, Rashmir. I've been excitingly and patiently waiting for this moment, for this conversation to happen. Rashmir Balasubramaniam (00:39.508) Likewise, Utkarsh, thank you so much for having me on the show and yeah, I'm excited to explore the parallels in our journeys as well as the differences. I have a feeling we're going to go quite deep in this conversation. Utkarsh Narang (00:55.118) Absolutely. And you joined from UK where it's still, I would say still early morning, it's 9.30, I still call it early morning, whereas I'm towards the end of my day. So I'm always fascinated how technology allows us to connect the dots across the world, but it leaves the humans between the technology to build deeper connections. So that's what we'll do together. Rashmir Balasubramaniam (01:18.724) lovely sounds wonderful Utkarsh Narang (01:23.16) Beautiful. the first question, Rashmir, that we open our conversations with is that if that eight year old Rashmir, wherever she was, wherever she was growing up, whatever experiences she was having in that moment at that young, beautiful age of eight years, if that Rashmir were to come to you and meet you right now, what kind of a conversation do you think will emerge between the two of you? Rashmir Balasubramaniam (01:47.869) You know, it's interesting. It's interesting, because over the years I've done a lot of work with my younger selves, as you may have as well in your coaching journey. So I know this eight year old actually fairly well. And she I mean, I can I can see her right now. And she always says to me the same things. Play more, have more fun. Don't take yourself so seriously. Don't take work too seriously, which is a tendency. And And also it's interesting, she has a carefreeness about her. She says, don't care so much about what other people think, just let it go and be you. So yeah, and she was quite creative as well. And actually she's smiling as I say that, so I can kind of visualize her. And it's one of those areas I think she's eager for me to do more experimentation and play with as well, is the whole world of creativity and creativity is a tool. actually in creating change. That's more, that last part's coming for me, not her, as a tool, but just creativity, play, enjoy, those are the things. Utkarsh Narang (02:54.382) That's fascinating. Utkarsh Narang (03:04.8) That's very fascinating because I've had about 20 recordings, about 20, maybe 22 recordings by now. And that's the first time I've heard someone say that I know that eight-year-old really well. And I'd love for us to go deep on that too. So that's one. But these ideas of playing more, of being carefree, having more fun. So we'll dissect each piece for what importance and what credibility that brings to this conversation. But... What allowed you to know this 8 year old really well because I sometimes feel that I don't remember my 8 year old self really well. Rashmir Balasubramaniam (03:41.37) Yeah, it's interesting. So, you know, part of my journey has taken me pretty deep into the inner planes. And it's difficult to say when it began, because I think in some ways we're always on the journey, right, whether we fully realize this or not. And those of us particularly with a reflective orientation. But I would say there were some really key moments in my journey. And one of those was when I was living and working in the US. I was at the Gates Foundation. which is an incredible place to work. But I also had some incredibly interesting encounters with myself and triggered by a level of stress and a level of frustration that I was experiencing there. And what it did is it brought me face to face with my own ego. Up until that point, I don't think I even realized I had an ego. So it was quite an awakening, quite a shock to the system. And I began meditation. I also started working with a coach, life coach. at the time. And so that was really the beginning. And I started to recognize and understand my aspects of myself. And I also, through the work with the life coach in particular, I really, I realized that I had been living in my head, you know, so I'd have very well developed intellect, like I think many of us with a Western style education have. But, but by by sort of having my awareness based here, I would lost touch with my body with my heart with deeper aspects of my being. So This work over many, years took me in several directions, including to, you know, what's often called inner child work, but also parts work. So I'm now trained in voice dialogue, which is one of a handful of methods where you can really engage deeply with different aspects of yourself, your psyche. And that could be, you know, aspects of you that were at different ages. So my younger child versions of myself, which is one of the ways I've gotten to know that eight year old. It could be other aspects of yourself, know, a part that's really stuck and struggling with anger, for example, or, you know, a part that is afraid. You sometimes these are younger parts, sometimes they're just different aspects of the psyche that have evolved usually to protect us in some way in the world. But the challenge comes, and I may be getting too much into coaching stuff here, the challenge comes when these parts are working against where we are heading. And so we Rashmir Balasubramaniam (06:07.569) have to, you we may be cool to look at them, explore them, work with them so that they very naturally start to relax and evolve. I'm very much a person that's not about force, so I would never try to change, force my parts to change. But what I found is just as when you're working with young children, know, patience, love, compassion, caring, listening are powerfully transformative. And so it's enabled me these kinds of tools. to get to know my younger selves and to allow them to come forward with their natural energy and exuberance. Utkarsh Narang (06:44.536) So many things I can pick from that aspect that you're sharing. One thing that kind of is emerging as I'm thinking about my experiences and adding these beautiful composite layers to our conversation, there's this work on positive intelligence by a coach. there, they say about that five-year-old or the eight-year-old that you're talking about or thinking about, that little child is still within you right now. And when we are harsh to ourselves or when we are super critical to ourselves or when we are rude to the other person on the other side, I think that's a great reflection that I've learned and I've shared with my coaches as well that how you can think about that, how that five-year-old feel about this conversation, how that five-year feel when you're talking about yourself in such harsh words. so that helps one person be a little less self-critical. And then the second thing that you just spoke about, think you spoke about, which I'm kind of paraphrasing. And so I love you to kind of take us deeper on that is the little kind of the lack of alignment between who you are, who you want to be and where you are that once that's not aligned, then that creates this distress and this pressure on you. Right. What are your thoughts about this lack of alignment? Rashmir Balasubramaniam (08:08.953) I love how you articulated that actually. I tend to talk about it when I'm working with clients and essentially the model that I've come to in my head is we each come into the world with a unique essence and you your essence is going to be distinctive from mine right so when you walk into a room and this is an analogy I've gotten from one of the coaches that I've trained with a guy called Tim Kelly when you walk into your room, your essence is going to bring a different shade of light, a different color to that room because it's different to mine and vice versa. But the challenge is, and this is the human development path, right? So this is Jung's work on individuation and the psyche where what he realized is that, yes, we have this original essence, this original spark, but the process of individuating into life. means that even at a very young age, we all suffer these micro traumas. It doesn't need to be anything really dramatic. It could be something as simple as your mother not coming to get you when you were crying as quickly as she normally does. So what that does is it creates an aspect, a part of your psyche that steps in to protect this new being that is developing and growing. And as this keeps happening, around that essence, we get the personality. So think of the personality as layers of shell with lots of different parts. And what it's designed to do, it's designed to protect this nascent essence expression in the world. So to keep us safe physically, emotionally, to get our needs met. so it serves a role, it serves a purpose. But as we grow and mature and we're able to take care of ourselves, we're able to function and be in the world without those protections, those protections often don't fully fall away because we're not conscious that they're happening, right? Where we have automatic patterns that are now set, that are driving our external personality, how we're appearing in the world. And so that's where the lack of alignment comes. There's just a mismatch between where our essence, our purpose is wanting us to go, how we want to express, and what we're able to because, not just because of our skillfulness, but because of the hardening of this personality shell around us. Rashmir Balasubramaniam (10:20.705) So that work to re-inform, re-align is essentially the steeper work that we're talking about, parts work, and it can come through many, many different forms. There's no one way. It could be parts work, could be meditation, it could be any kind of inner development, it could be paradigm shifting work. I mean, I'm sure you've got, you know, numerous tools in your toolkit for this kind of thing as well. Utkarsh Narang (10:43.726) It's fascinating. I mean, you're talking about this and I deeply resonate with this because I think you and I have worked upon ourselves enough to be having this conversation. And at this point, I'm sensing that many of our listeners would be that, I don't want to listen to this episode. then to them, I just want to kind of caution them that all you need is, Rashmir spoke about this part. All you need is a ignite your spark moment for the spark to really turn into a fire because I think it's our responsibility to this human life to make sure that we look at that unique sense that you're speaking about, Rashmir, and allow it to thrive beautifully so. But having said that, for those who you feel are not in that state, are not in that place, maybe even before we go and try and solve it for them, how does it show up, Rashmir? Rashmir Balasubramaniam (11:29.55) Thank Utkarsh Narang (11:41.74) What's your experience, your hypothesis? If there's someone who does not recognize that unique sense that they have in them or is not aware of that, how does it show up in their life? Rashmir Balasubramaniam (11:57.114) Yeah, it can't not in some sense, right? Because even if it's clouded over by aspects of our personality or aspects of ourself, it's still a part of who we are. It's what makes us unique and distinctive. And so, you know, I'm trying to connect the dots a little bit to what you said around the hesitation people might have to listen to the episode. So I'm assuming what you're talking about there is just fear or hesitation of going deeper. Is that right? Or are you picking and sensing something else? Yeah, so what I would say is it. Utkarsh Narang (12:31.586) No, I think you're right. So it's the fear of, we want to go deeper? That's one. But then the second thing could also be that they feel like it's not important for them to explore this unique sense that they have. So it's both ways, I think. Just want to kind of add that. Rashmir Balasubramaniam (12:48.014) Yeah, great. That's helpful. That's helpful. you know, it's, it's, yeah, it's interesting. I mean, if we think of life as a journey, which is, you know, a fairly cliched analogy, but a useful one, you could, you could argue that that, that, that journey happens in stages for all of us, right? And, and for me, it's less about age, because I actually think the ages at which different aspects of the journey are triggered are happening earlier and earlier. But our first phase is development, basic survival development, developing skills to function and survive and succeed in the world. But at some point, we become triggered to actually think a bit broader than that. OK, maybe at this early phase, I'm just surviving. Second phase, I'm succeeding in the world. But then, you know, we're triggered to start to question, well, what is success? What do I really want? As opposed to what everyone else has told me I should want, or everyone else around me, particularly family, culture, you know how that goes, define success for us. But if you're feeling any kind of dissonance between the path that's been laid out for you or the path that is expected of you and what... you feel you're called to or capable of or might bring you greater happiness and joy, that dissonance is the beginning, right? It's the beginning of an opening where you start to question in a deeper way. And that's really the key to this inner development work. It's trusting that those dissonances, they're not things to be afraid of or worried about or to shut down. They're openings. They're your inner essence, if you like, you're all your soul, if you want to use that word. calling you to something more, to something greater. And the other piece that I would say, and this obviously can carry on, know, people get to a stage in their life where they care about legacy and impact. And so all of those things, if you want to have those kinds of achievements and successes, you can do it in the traditional ways and you can kind of force that your way into those places and positions and impacts or Rashmir Balasubramaniam (14:57.82) If you're following your inner calling, your inner questioning and your purpose, you're going to be asking questions that lead you to want to create new ways of being and doing that are aligned with you. And it's only when you're able to do that, that you're able to find what I would call ease, flow and joy, because I believe that all of us in some ways are here to fully express our essence as much as we can. and as purely as we can without necessarily being encumbered by the limitations of personality or society or anything else. And I would maybe make a final thought on this, which is actually we share a quote with you. It's one of my all time favorite quotes. And it's by somebody called Howard Thurman, who was an African-American pastor around the time of the civil rights movement in the US. And he said, don't ask what the world needs. Ask what makes you come alive. and do that because what the world needs is people who have come alive. And when we are fully alive, we are more likely to be living in line with our essence and our design and expressing that and bringing our unique gifts and genius to the world. Utkarsh Narang (16:12.238) I'm smiling as I'm listening to you and you know, it just... A few thoughts for listeners. So first of all, our listeners might feel that how in every conversation almost, we end up talking about these big ideas. Actually this big idea, which you said, that it's our responsibility and almost a need for the human mind, body, soul. to fully express and purely express our essence. And that's what's true. And what you just shared, how it's important for us to ask what makes us come alive, because that's what's important for the world. think these two ideas, we end up speaking about them a lot. And I want to just caution everyone to make sure that this conversation between Rashmir and myself is happening, because I did not know that Rashmir had this to offer. So we don't script these conversations at all. We simply come here. Rashmir Balasubramaniam (17:07.755) You Utkarsh Narang (17:11.47) And I don't know how the podcast attracts people who feel so deeply about these conversations. So I really appreciate Rashmir where you're taking us. This word dissonance, I think it is such a powerful word, Rashmir. And I'm so grateful that this came up in our conversation right now. And when this dissonance happens, and I've seen it time and again, when this dissonance happens, it can show up in so many ways. It can show up in physical symptoms, emotional symptoms. Rashmir Balasubramaniam (17:40.362) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (17:40.576) mental symptoms, can show up in a sense of incompleteness of who you can be and who you are. How have you seen this dissonance show up in your clients, in your friends, wherever you have seen them? How does dissonance show up in your experience? Rashmir Balasubramaniam (17:59.355) Yeah, I love that you picked out that word dissonance. I mean, it shows up in many, ways. Maybe to give you some examples even from my own life, right? That example I talked about when I was at the Gates Foundation where I was in that period of profound stress and I couldn't figure it out. I couldn't find a way forward. That's a moment of dissonance. you know, that coming face to face with my own ego for the first time. That was a huge moment of dissonance. You know, there are the things those are big moments, right, when we have some kind of major shock. But the thing that's very interesting is I find life always brings us what we need to grow and evolve. And the problem is we're not very good at listening because we haven't been taught how to listen. In fact, we've probably inadvertently had those skills shut down because of our education systems and our social conditioning. So it's almost like we don't hear. And so because we don't hear, the dissonance gets louder and louder. And then sometimes, if it's loud enough, that's when you get sick. That's when you end up in a car accident that makes you Utkarsh Narang (18:47.776) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (18:52.974) Hmm. Rashmir Balasubramaniam (19:10.576) wake up and re-evaluate what you're doing and where you are and what's really important. That's, you know, maybe you have a major health shock, a heart attack, and suddenly you're questioning, wait a second, why am I working, you know, 100 % of the time and barely seeing my family or doing the things that I love? So for me, yeah, there's all kinds of dissonances, but if we start to listen and pay attention and we pick up the dissonance when it's more subtle, then we're less likely to suffer and to feel pain and more likely to course correct because that's what the dissonance is about. It's saying okay you're a little bit off your off your genius track or your flow path you know just pay attention here there's something there's something for you to be doing differently or thinking about differently or just be open in a way that you haven't been before. What's your experience with that? Utkarsh Narang (19:58.604) No, I love how you're sharing this and it makes absolute, absolute sense that when you're off your genius track, off your flow track, then the dissonance shows up. You know, I can give you three examples from my life, like right off the back of my head. One was when I used to be a physiotherapist and I was feeling this dissonance that my purpose in life should be larger than what I'm doing right now. And that happened for about two years, where for one year I did try being on that same path, but finding variations so that I can touch more lives, but could not succeed. And that's why I changed my path and so on and so forth. And we don't have to get into the details. And then second, as you spoke about having a heart attack, having a car accident, there was this moment when I was working 60 hours a week, feeling extremely successful on the outside, but extremely hollow on the inside. And I remember I had to go to a family friend's wedding. And just before that, Rashmir Balasubramaniam (20:47.465) Thank Utkarsh Narang (20:58.062) I felt this like, I was working throughout the day and night to get some deliverables done at about four o'clock in the evening. And I had to go there at about seven. I felt this urging pain in my chest. And part of me thought that I'm getting a heart attack. I should go to like a cardiologist. And I did not share that with my wife or the family. And I went there, got all my blood tests done over the next two hours to find that nothing's wrong with me. It was just stress that was showing up like that. Rashmir Balasubramaniam (21:09.482) Okay. Utkarsh Narang (21:27.736) But then within six months, I changed everything that I thought I had to change to make sure that I actually don't get a heart attack. So that's two. And third, I faced that in a more recent time, but I think something shifted now where, as you were saying, that when you can hear those subtle signs and hear those subtle echoes of dissonance, then you're able to pick them up early and they don't show up as drastically as they do. So if you were to go to that then. this idea and to make the language easier. I'm taking your, I'm saying this out loud, Rashmir, before I take permission. So if you want to correct me, absolutely feel free to do that. We'll not edit this part out. But the dissonance is what also shows up as a burnout. As someone saying that I want to give up in terms of my work, in terms of my life. So do you think these words are almost parallel, like burnout and dissonance? Rashmir Balasubramaniam (22:25.108) It's a really interesting question. I want to say yes and no because I think you're absolutely spot on. think burnout is often a sign that somebody is off track. for them, right? They're pushing and forcing themselves or suffering in a situation that's no longer resonant, that's no longer purposeful. And it's very difficult for ourselves to extract ourselves from these situations, right? I've been there too, and there could be any number of reasons. It could be, you know, pride in what we do, over identification with a role or a job, or a lack of sense of possibility. What else could I do? What else is out there? Or it's simply a lack of time and energy to even focus on the question. the lack of time and energy is symptomatic of you've passed the point of the dissonance being a soft signal. And so in that sense, I think you're right. But do you also think that there are other reasons for burnout as well that are less about purpose and aliveness, but a way out of those other forms of burnout too, and I forget who, but other people have talked about this, I think quite articulately. Sometimes it's rest, right? Because you do need to rest and recuperate. But actually quite often, it's reconnecting to your aliveness and to your sense of purpose and your excitement and your joy because that creates energy as opposed to drains it. Now that doesn't mean you won't necessarily need to also go do some rest and some healing work because that may be part of your journey. But I think one of the things that we forget is that discomfort isn't a bad thing necessarily. And there's a difference I would say between discomfort and dissonance. Utkarsh Narang (24:01.538) and we've been speaking, Rashmir and I were speaking just before this conversation that how technology allows us to connect so beautifully and so deeply, and yet technology can also allow us to get disconnected. So something today is beautifully wrong with technology because Rashmir is showing up and disappearing from the conversation. Now she's back. Rashmir, you're speaking about how rest is important and we lost you. We will see if you have to edit this out or if we were to continue with... Rashmir Balasubramaniam (24:06.085) because discomfort. Utkarsh Narang (24:31.01) because you were speaking with such passion when you said reconnecting with your aliveness. Did I hear that right? Rashmir Balasubramaniam (24:38.811) Yeah, yeah. So I'm not sure where exactly what I said and didn't say that was caught on camera, but absolutely reconnecting with your aliveness, with your excitement, with your joy, your inspiration. These are all ways to start helping yourself get out of burnout. They may on their own not be enough. You may also need to rest and do some healing work and physical, emotional, know, mental, but but it can be really key. And I'll give you an example from my own life and experience. When I was in a period of deep stress, and I would say on the verge of burnout, I don't know whether I'd cross the line or not. It's difficult to know in hindsight. But one of the sort of whispers that came to me was a reminder, I'm working all of the time and I'm not doing the things that that brought me joy and that brought me perspective and inspiration. So I started going to concerts. I started going to museums and art galleries just in little bits of time at the weekend, right? And it didn't have to be for long. It could just be an hour's trip one day or an evening at a concert. But it was enough to start to reconnect me to excitement, joy, aliveness, inspiration, because all of that raises our energy, elevates our energy as opposed to depletes it. And that can create space for us then to start to ask the deeper questions and listen more to the signs and signals of what might be right for us. Utkarsh Narang (26:11.662) So powerful. I love that thought. So you're speaking about creating space. You know, I love to love to challenge ourselves, Rashmir, I'm assuming we're two people who have experienced this dissonance. I'm hearing between both our conversations that we have had some experiences, insights, ahas that have allowed us to come to a space where we're able to hear these subtle nuances of dissonance and and capture them and now we are supporting others to do that. What if we were to challenge ourselves right now? In the next, whatever 15, 20 minutes that we have before we go towards the end of the conversation, if you were to build us a few step process, it could be a two step, three step, five step process, and maybe you already have something in mind, but let's co-create it. If someone's listening to this right now and they feel like, what the hell, my life's... Rashmir Balasubramaniam (27:06.566) Thank Thank Utkarsh Narang (27:09.408) Yeah, what these two are talking about completely makes sense. My life, I'm not feeling that it's aligned with who I want to be. I see and understand what dissonance looks like because I'm seeing it right now. I'm not on my genius track. I'm not enjoying what I'm doing. I'm not able to fully express. But they want to bring about a change in their life. They want to do something that's more constructive. How should they approach this? Rashmir Balasubramaniam (27:28.325) Thank Rashmir Balasubramaniam (27:36.85) Yeah, I love the question. I mean, I suspect we both have thoughts, right, on what, what, what there should be. I would say the very first step though is because I can hear in the way that you're asking the question that for some people when they recognise that they may feel bad or wrong or like they've made poor decisions or, you know, they may just feel a level of frustration or unhappiness with themselves. And I would say the first step is don't. Don't! Where you are is exactly where you should be. And so, you know, be compassionate and, you know, caring with yourself and acknowledge that you are, where you are is the perfect starting point. So let go as best you can of any of those negative feelings that you may be experiencing in the moment. That's what I would say the first step. What would you say? Utkarsh Narang (28:29.55) So, so step one, you're saying is start by being compassionate and caring to yourself, be kind to yourself. It's okay for where you are. that, that, and I'm also kind of thinking about like that step also, like a prereq to that step is that they're a listening to this conversation, B they are, they have the awareness where they are able to identify what's happening. So maybe maybe for the sake of simplicity, what if you were to say that step one is to really identify what you're going through. So identification of the dissonance is step one. And once you have that, Rashmir, then we, what you and I are co-creating is that do that identification. And I think what you spoke to, I'm going to bring that back here again, that create that space for yourself where you can stop and really, it's like, you know, the thought that's coming to me, Rashmir, is that what you and I are speaking about, it's like, If you're going down a highway at about 120 miles an hour, you will not be able to see what's really happening outside the window. And so what we are saying is that, and that's what's going to lead to dissonance. So pause, maybe put the car on the side, go and lie down in the grass if you have to. So pause to create that space where you can identify what's happening and then be compassionate and caring and kind to yourself. But what's next, Rashmir? I mean, that's not enough, right? Rashmir Balasubramaniam (29:34.436) Hmm. Rashmir Balasubramaniam (29:39.95) Yeah. Rashmir Balasubramaniam (29:46.496) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (29:56.578) We've done the identification, but then what's next? Rashmir Balasubramaniam (30:00.189) Yeah, I love how you articulated that though in terms of creating outer space because the outer space helps create the inner space. So what I would say is next is then, what else can you do to create more inner space and more inner awareness? Because when you do that and you're speaking also to slowing down, And slowing down doesn't mean giving up everything in your life. Life carries on. The world's turning as fast as it's turning. Unfortunately, we can't stop it. But you can create spaciousness by doing the things that allow you to take a moment to create a pause. And this is the thing about the Positive Intelligence Program. What I love about it is it helps people start to create that inner space because it can just be in a few minutes a day or a few seconds if that's all you've got. It could just be three breaths. Utkarsh Narang (30:24.504) Thank Rashmir Balasubramaniam (30:47.671) First, on the first breath, just take stock of your mental state. On the second breath, take stock of your emotional state. On the third breath, take stock of your physical state. Even just in saying that, I can see I'm slowing down, which creates more inner spaciousness. So there's lots of ways that we can expand that inner spaciousness. And why that's important is that allows us then, I think, to start seeing and exploring possibilities that we couldn't see before. And even then to start playing with possibilities, you know, so it's almost like if the first step is, know, if one of the steps, as you said, is, getting off the train or slowing the train down so you can see a little bit more. The second is starting to climb a mountain. So you're, moving into a higher perspective with greater awareness. Utkarsh Narang (31:44.792) love how you're thinking in such visual metaphors. So you've slowed yourself down, you've been able to identify what's going on. The second step is be compassionate. It's okay for where you are. It's absolutely okay to have a sense of this dissonance. I think what's not okay is to not be aware of it and go through life with that consciousness, if I were to use that word. Then step three, Rashmir, you're saying is create that inner space because that inner space is what's going to allow you to kind of take those three breaths. And that's going to help. then the fourth step is then start that climb of the mountain because it's going to be something. That journey will not be easy. And as you and I have experienced it and are having this conversation, it will be a journey where you'll shed some of what you are and who you are. how you identify to then build on a new one. So we've got these four steps, right? Identify, be compassionate, create that inner space and then climb the journey. What's next? Rashmir Balasubramaniam (32:44.983) Yeah. Rashmir Balasubramaniam (32:57.324) So I'd say, I mean, I think there's several possibilities for what's next, but one of the things I found to be incredibly important is as you are climbing that mountain, right, going on that journey, is learn to activate what I call your inner guidance system. Because we can have maps of the territory, but the more you start to explore, the more you're going to be stepping out of any defined territories. And so, you you won't necessarily have the map. So you're going to have to learn how to navigate. using the tools that you have available at your disposal, your soul, your inner guidance system. And for me, the keys there are, you know, paying attention to what, your excitement is, where your joy is, what's enlivening to you and listening for those. Also paying attention to what doesn't feel so good, you know, what, what feels a bit off, you know, where they're, where they might look dark or, or, or, you know, you might feel a bit more afraid. That's also really useful information. And it isn't that we would necessarily always veer away from fear because I don't think we have well understood the differences. So I put fear on a spectrum from fear through anxiety through to excitement. And I think we have been so in the fear survival camp as a species for so long that we're more attuned to that. And we don't know how to transform fear through anxiety into excitement. So and we don't know how to discern the differences between the different types of fear. When is fear telling us we should move in a different direction? When is it a useful signal? And when is it actually an indication of something else? So tuning this in a guidance system is a key. Utkarsh Narang (34:38.702) You're almost influencing me to leave this conversation and talk about fear because fear is one of my favorite topics. We'll come to that. Yeah, absolutely. Let's talk about that. So here's where we are. So if you're anyone who feels the sense of dissonance and is what you and what Rashmir and I are speaking about here is making sense to you. So we've given you almost like these six steps and it's very easy to remember. Rashmir Balasubramaniam (34:48.802) It is, I know you did a TED talk on it. Utkarsh Narang (35:08.288) It's IC IC IC Identify, be compassionate to yourself. So identify the dissonance, be compassionate to yourself. Create that inner space where you start to climb the journey. And then the fifth pillar that Rashmir spoke about was inner guidance, which I think is so powerful that it's almost like all the resources to solve this challenge are within you. And you need to make sure that you tap into these tools. And I think just being a little bit more... serving to the world, Rashmir, and still being selfish to both of us. I'm also adding the sixth element, which is to find a coach. Or find anyone who... I mean, I don't even want to put this big responsibility on coaches, right, to solve the world's problems, or in any way. Find yourself someone who you think you can have a conversation with, where you'll not feel judged, and where they'll push you to become a better version of yourself. Now, that could be a child, that could be... Rashmir Balasubramaniam (35:53.121) Please. Rashmir Balasubramaniam (36:02.315) you Utkarsh Narang (36:08.266) a parent, could be a spouse, could be a coach, could be Rashmir, that could be me, that could be anyone in the world, a mentor, whatever that looks like, but someone who's ready to push you to be a better version of yourself. How does that sound Rashmir? Rashmir Balasubramaniam (36:10.209) Thank you. Rashmir Balasubramaniam (36:20.571) I love that. I think it's a critical part of the journey and it may be that it's not just one person. It might be that there's multiple people and this may be a little bit out there for some people, gosh, but it could be multiple people living or non-living because there's so much wisdom out there in the world in all kinds of forms and the more we climb that mountain, the more we're able to see and attune to. And so, you know, the people talk about synchronicity, and this is, I think, a really interesting example of its synchronicity is when the right teachers, coaches, mentors, guides show up or wisdom shows up, right? It could be in the form of a book. And actually, to give you an example of that, the Tao Te Ching which I'm currently writing a book on leadership in the Tao Te Ching, this book came to me in that incredibly stressful period that I talked about. from the person I was most challenged by. and yet this was the gift that he gave me back then. And, you know, it took me a long time to kind of work through the issues between him and I, but, you know, that too was purposeful because this wisdom text landed in my world as a result. Utkarsh Narang (37:38.562) Yeah. And I think what that also shares, Rashmir, is that the vessel has to be ready to receive the wisdom, right? It's yeah, if we're not ready as and I know there are these contradictory state sayings, right? That the once the student is ready, the teacher appears. But ultimately, it's I think what's important is and that could be like a prereq here of what you and I are speaking about is that one has to be ready to listen and to be attuned to this inner and the outer world that we're speaking about. And I love how you've shared such profound wisdom that this person who you speak with or who supports you could come in any form and shape, but you have to be attuned and present to it. Rashmir Balasubramaniam (38:27.313) Indeed, that's really the key. you know, I think there's also a lesson in there for us as coaches and guides and mentors. You know, we aren't always the right person for a particular individual because the resonance may not be there, their readiness may not be there, or just, you know, what our gifts and our essence are may not be the right match for what they need. In that moment, that doesn't mean that we change over time, but in that moment. The resonance I think applies on both sides, student and teacher. Utkarsh Narang (39:01.142) Love that. So, so powerful. Just getting goosebumps as I like to me that that's the joy I get from this podcast, right? That I get to have these conversations which are always meaningful for me individually. And so it's a very selfish reason because of which I started this podcast. But then if it helps and so both of us are absolutely benefiting from this conversation. But if there are like 10 more people who listen to it, it's just a joy. But this Rashmir Balasubramaniam (39:24.127) safely. Utkarsh Narang (39:27.718) This episode would not be complete if you don't talk about fear for a second because my relationship with fear has also evolved over time where a friend in a WhatsApp group challenged me that Uttakash courage is not something that we are born with. Fear is something that we are born with. So why are you not talking about fear when you were thinking about your TEDx talk? What's been your relationship with Rashmir with fear? Rashmir Balasubramaniam (39:53.087) Yeah, that's a good question. I don't know if I have a good answer to it, but I mean, I would say it's an ongoing relationship, right? My relationship with fear has evolved, but I've not transcended it. It still very much shows up in my life. can see it, particularly where it shows up for me is where I hold myself back. where I don't step boldly into something I feel cool to do or I can see those old patterns of conditioning assert themselves, right? Underneath that, the root of that is fear. Now, you could trace that back and you've probably done work around this as well where a lot of it comes down to the fear of death. But there's a lot of levels of fear before you get to the fear of death because I'm someone that's said, I'm not particularly afraid of death. I don't want to have a violent or painful death. but I don't think I'm afraid of death. Utkarsh Narang (40:45.358) so profound and it's... Rashmir Balasubramaniam (40:50.214) sorry, think we may have had a bit of a delay. Utkarsh Narang (40:53.742) Yeah, yeah, we had a lag where our thoughts were crossing in the airwaves between UK and Australia. So somewhere in the middle of India or somewhere in Asia is where our thoughts were. But I love what you said. So this relationship with fear is evolving and then it shows up in certain cases. And that's absolutely true. I think one thing that has helped me, Rashmir, and maybe I... Rashmir Balasubramaniam (41:05.951) You Utkarsh Narang (41:21.504) we ended up cutting each other's thoughts, which I would allow you to complete in a second. But I think fear is natural. And I think what you said before we got into this conversation was that we look at fear only through a flight and fight reaction. But there's more nuance to fear than just those two. Rashmir Balasubramaniam (41:26.096) Anyways. Rashmir Balasubramaniam (41:43.078) Yeah, very much. I mean, there's two things that occur to me as being worth sharing. To build on what you just said, you know, I really like the four-fold framework. So our responses to fear could be fight, flight, freeze, or fawn. And so freeze and fawn are the two that I don't think get talked about enough. And yet I find they are often the most significant one, particularly for women, because I work primarily with women, but also for people of colour. right? Because, you know, many of us were conditioned in such a way that that freezing could be a physical freezing or it could be an inner freezing. So if you withdraw when you're in a difficult situation, that's a sort of freezing that's happening, right? Because you haven't been taught or you don't have the skillfulness or you haven't seen examples of how else to respond. Fawning too is, you when you get nice, you know, you have this externally nice persona, but on the inside you may be boiling or really upset or really angry or really whatever it is, maybe even the fear is taking other kinds of forms. And so this is where work to develop our skillfulness, both with dealing with what's going on in our inner world and then the external skills to respond differently in different situations is incredibly important. But the other thing I wanted to say about fear, and this is something where I'd say my explorations are currently going deeper, is I'm a big fan of, I don't know if you've come across Richard Rudd and the Gene Keys. So it's really interesting synthesis wisdom that he's pulled together and, you know, we probably don't have time to really go deep into the Gene Keys. But one of the ideas that he's introduced me to is this idea that there are a handful of key of core wounds that we come into the world with. So we are not just trying to evolve and grow and beyond those wounds as individuals, but we're doing it collectively. And fear is one of those. And it's one that features in kind of my gene key profile. So it's something I know I have deeper work to do around. And where I'm at in my explorations is really looking at Utkarsh Narang (43:58.894) Mm. Rashmir Balasubramaniam (44:00.101) actually all kinds of energies and emotions, including fear as energies. And so when we recognize that, we create more of that inner spaciousness we were talking about earlier and more perspective. So then the question becomes, how do I utilize this energy? How do I transform it potentially into even a greater kind of energy that I can then apply in other ways, maybe to creativity, maybe to, know, or something else. So I would say this might be a conversation we come back to in the future because I feel I've barely scratched the surface on fear. Utkarsh Narang (44:34.402) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So let's do a let's let's commit to a part two to listeners, which should just revolve around fear as the emotion. And then we speak about it. And you said fight, flight, freeze. What was the fourth one, Rashmir? Rashmir Balasubramaniam (44:49.789) Fawn, I think it's spelled F-A-W-N. So fawn, when someone's fawning, they are coming across as overly nice or, you know, they're looking like they're making do or making peace, but that's just an external response. And it's all of these responses are none of them are bad, right? These are protective mechanisms that we've developed. The problem is fawning, as with some of the others and used in the wrong situation, doesn't help us because it's pretending that everything is okay when it's really not. So we're not utilizing the information that is being generated in the situation. Utkarsh Narang (45:40.086) about this. This is extremely powerful. We'll definitely do a part two. But we've taken quite a journey today. We started speaking about that eight-year-old Rashmir, which I did not get to fully know because you shared that you know her pretty well. So I had many questions on that. But we moved into this beautiful space of talking about dissonance, which I think was extremely powerful. And hopefully our listeners took away a lot through that. that conversation, we built a great model of these six steps which would help someone to at least initiate the journey and support is always, what is that famous Albus Dumbledore quote, that help will always given to those who seek it at Hogwarts and I think that's true of the universe and life as well. But if we were to now move towards disclosure, Rashmir, and I have to ask you, a few decades into the future, that 80 year old Rashmir who's having her beautiful wrinkles, those beautiful grey hair. She comes to you in this moment and has one piece of advice for you that Rashmir, this is what you should be doing. What would her advice be? Rashmir Balasubramaniam (46:41.883) Thank Rashmir Balasubramaniam (47:00.077) You know, it's interesting, there's parallels to the eight year olds, but there's also some differences. She's saying, have more fun, be bolder, be bolder, which is interesting because that does speak to it's the opposite of fear, isn't it? Just boldly going for what you want. And she says, trust yourself and trust life. Utkarsh Narang (47:26.402) Wow, and I always take a lot of notes and to everyone who's listening, listen to that 80 year old Rashmir because I'm telling you she's very wise, she's very smart, she's very capable and if you're listening to her advice, it'll be advice worth listening to. Go out there, be bold, trust yourself, trust life and have fun because yeah, what else is there in life to do? Thank you, Rashmir, for this time that we had together. To all our listeners, if you were listening to this on a podcast platform, please do share it with someone who you think might enjoy this conversation and might be going through this state of dissonance. If you're listening to it on YouTube, then we must appease to the algorithm gods. So please like, share, and subscribe. Comment what stood out for you through this conversation. And yeah, Rashmir, any final words before we close this conversation? Rashmir Balasubramaniam (48:14.459) Thank Rashmir Balasubramaniam (48:24.229) I don't think I do. mean, maybe just to reiterate, as you said, that wisdom of my 80 year old, which I need to listen to as well. Be bolder, trust yourself in life and have more fun. Let's let's do that. Yeah, thank you so much for having me on the show. Utkarsh Narang (48:43.502) Absolutely. Talk to you soon.