Utkarsh Narang (00:01.258) Our guest today has helped NASA explore boundaries and Apple push boundaries. But his real... Did I say boundaries twice? I think I did. Sorry, I'll redo it. I was like, why am saying boundaries twice? Our guest today has helped NASA push through space and Apple push boundaries. But his core journey right now in this moment is to help human beings push themselves and explore themselves further. And I always believe that self-awareness is a very solo journey. But Rajiv today is going to break that myth for me and help us understand how even self-awareness can be about camaraderie, connection and can be a shared journey. Welcome to the IgnitedNeurons Podcast, Rajiv. Looking forward to this conversation with you. Rajiv Mehta (00:44.898) Thanks, Utkarsh I'm looking forward to the conversation as well. Utkarsh Narang (00:48.162) Absolutely. And we start the podcast, put ourselves in the deep end of the pool. And the first question that we begin with is Rajiv, that if that eight year old Rajiv, that little kid, wherever that eight year old was growing up, if that Rajiv comes and meets you right now, what kind of a conversation would emerge between the two of you? Rajiv Mehta (01:06.668) Yeah, you know, it was interesting when you posed that question when you first contacted me and it's it's it's such a great question. And yet when I think back to my eight year old self, I'm wondering whether I would have, you know, the younger me would have any sort of conversation with the older me at all. I was in Mumbai when I was eight and all my memories are of playing, you know, cricket and marbles and Monopoly and and cards and so forth, of reading, of just having fun. Utkarsh Narang (01:22.626) you Rajiv Mehta (01:36.207) I I know I was a good student in a very good school, but I have zero memories of like doing homework and of having any sort of deep conversations with anything about anybody other than just sort of fun things. unlike other people who can say, I've always wanted to be an artist or a doctor or whatever, I had no clue. I had given no thought to that. So my eight-year-old self would be quite surprised. Utkarsh Narang (01:51.01) Mm. Rajiv Mehta (02:04.834) to hear about the very, very journey I've been on over time. And that would be very new concept to my eight-year-old self. Utkarsh Narang (02:16.994) What's interesting, know, and as I stalked you on LinkedIn and as we've gotten to know each other, like, admire your journey and where you've come. Part of me also feels Rajiv, then why is there sometimes that pressure we put on our eight-year-olds, on our 18-year-old self, on our 28-year-old self that, we need to figure life out, but life itself also figures out, right? Rajiv Mehta (02:42.484) Yeah, and you have, you if you're open to experiences, if you're open to pursuing ideas that occur to you, if you're open to sort of exploring, then life can unfold in all sorts of unexpected ways. think, you know, speaking for myself, there were lots of times when I sort of had blinders on. And so I was completely unaware of the diversity of the world out there about all the different things you could do. And so even this journey I've been on wasn't sort of directed in the sense that, this is what I'm going to do. It was more being open in the moment. that's interesting. Let's just go. And then discovering after the fact, wow, you went in a different direction than you were planning on. And this is just as true if I think back to my 40-year-old self or my 50-year-old self. I'm 64 right now. I would not have been able to imagine I would be doing what I'm doing now. So it's always kind of a journey that, if you're open to it, that can take you in multiple places. Utkarsh Narang (03:49.699) I think that's a very important point what you're saying because if you're open to it, I think that's where where where the magic lies. Right. And so if I were to take us back to that moment when you are saying you had your blinders on, those were kind of maybe maybe not allowing you to see the whole 360 degree. What what Rajiv helped you remove those blinders, because maybe, yeah, many of us are wanting to to remove the blinders and be open to what life has to offer. Rajiv Mehta (04:19.286) Yeah, I suppose it's not being so sure that you already know. So as a couple of examples, you know, when I went to Princeton undergrad and studied aerospace engineering, to be quite honest, it's not like I had some deep thoughts that I wanted to be working on space things. It just seemed like the only option. And so I went there and it was the mechanical and aerospace engineering department. But there were about a dozen or so of us that were studying aerospace engineering. And sure, some of us went off to work for the aerospace companies. Two of us ended up at NASA, NASA Ames Research Center out here in California. But I had not thought about doing anything else. It was only years later that I realized, in fact, one of my roommates went to work for Procter & Gamble, the big consumer packaged goods companies. Another one of my roommates went off, not roommates, one of my aerospace engineering classmates, went off to business school, then went into the ad industry and so forth, which... I was completely unaware of. didn't even think of talking to them about what are you thinking of doing for the next thing. And similarly, after business school or when I was at business school, I was there. went to Columbia for business school, mainly because someone told me I should. I had no idea what I was getting myself into. But so here I am at business school. And of course, in retrospect, people went into all sorts of industries. mean, it's Columbia and New York City. So of course, a huge went into finance, lots went into consulting, and somehow I got stuck with the idea that I wanted to be in the tech industry. And honestly, I didn't look at anything else. And again, those were times when I was not kind of being open to the world. for the last 20, 30 years now, it has been much more of that, just sort of being very curious when things happen that are unexpected. Utkarsh Narang (06:06.018) Hmm. Rajiv Mehta (06:19.123) you know, especially sort of unexpectedly positive things. It's like, what's going on? Let's go look at that. And so forth. And that has led me into all sorts of directions that had no idea. I should also acknowledge that in some times the changes came from somebody else pointing out that this is more than just interesting, that this is like really significant. It's like, you know, there was one person who very particularly stopped me and said, You don't seem to be taking this seriously enough. You don't seem to recognize what you have accomplished. That's not just nice. This is important. so, you know, there's a little bit of me being open to the world and also a lot of other people pointing things out. But both of it requires you to be open to the ideas. Utkarsh Narang (07:06.38) That's very interesting. I was about to say that. Thank you for putting that nail because until and you're open, you're not going to be aware of listening to what your inner voice is saying for that matter or what someone else on the outside is saying. What I'm also curious to understand and maybe there's like a core memory, right? From Princeton to Columbia, these are like those Ivy Leagues, the epitome, right? Of where I think education lives and lies. What's been one thing that you think completely shifted? for you as a human being in these two experiences. Rajiv Mehta (07:42.958) Well, there's also Stanford in between. so from the engineering perspective, so there was a class when I was at Princeton, it turned out for the 35 years or so that this professor taught this class, was called Structures in the Urban Environment. And one of the most favorite classes amongst Princeton undergrad. Sounds like a very nerdly class. It's a civil engineering class. But the professor, who was very professorial, but he talked about Utkarsh Narang (07:45.79) we missed that. Rajiv Mehta (08:12.877) structures in the urban environment, whether it's monuments like the Eiffel Tower or its grand buildings or amazing bridges and so forth. And he analyzed them and he helped us to see that the engineering, the fact that the thing didn't fall down was, yes, a very important part of the thing, but also aesthetics. How beautiful is it? How much do we enjoy viewing it? Also, like how does it feel from the inside? Like being on the Eiffel Tower. looking out is fabulous in its own way. And someone actually had to design that. But he also talked about the importance of like the social context, you how did it fit the environment? And in fact, the Eiffel Tower was hated by Parisians. What is this engineering monstrosity doing in the middle of their city? And so had Mr. Eiffel considered this or not? And also all sorts of politics and economics and so forth. And so he helped us see that these enormous structures Utkarsh Narang (09:03.842) Mm. Rajiv Mehta (09:11.755) we were going to build in our world deserve to be thought of much more deeply than simply will they stand up. so appreciating this very rich view of anything we do was one, like a lesson. It is the class I remember the most from my Princeton experience. At Columbia, a class I took was on the management of innovation. And people have read books by Clay Christensen on the innovator's dilemma, this whole thing about big companies have a hard time innovating and so forth. And so this professor, Michael Tushman, all of his research had been, well, okay, this is the reality. How do organizations deal with this? And part of it was us getting much more familiar with this reality in human affairs, that innovation is hard. Get over it. Utkarsh Narang (09:44.748) Mm. Rajiv Mehta (10:08.969) It's not just that it's hard to imagine new things, hard to invent, but that we as human beings are set up to reject. And it's because on any given idea that's hugely popular, there's an entire industry built on that ideas. There's academics that are set to discover the next little 1 % improvement. And a zillion people have jobs serving that paradigm. you come from left field, decide that this other approach is so much more powerful. That destroys an industry. They don't like that. They don't even want to hear about it. so this class was also really eye-opening, especially since I went into the tech industry and then saw it from the inside. So how are these two similar? It's the fact that you are viewing the world in its complexity, in its reality. It's not just what is logical, but how does it feel? How does it work with us humans as human beings? You know, very sort of systemic approach to things. And that always had a huge influence. Utkarsh Narang (11:20.396) Yeah, I love these examples because when you spoke about the Eiffel Tower and considering human life also similarly complex. So what is it from the inside? How does it play out in the social context? What are you expressing on the outside? So many layers of this beauty and richness that you're speaking about in terms of buildings applies directly to our human lives as well. Rajiv Mehta (11:42.433) Right, right. Yeah, in fact, I would add one more class that had a huge influence on me. It was, you know, it was a Intro to Philosophy class at Princeton, and most of it went over my head. That's not me, but there was one person we did a lot of reading on, a guy named Peter Singer, who's a professor at Princeton who is quite controversial in certain circumstances. But what I loved about his approach was that he challenged us to think about what you believe. and challenge yourself to follow that belief to whatever ultimately leads you to. It's like if you continue to believe that, what does that end up meaning in terms of your decisions and so forth? And when you get there, if you find, you're not so comfortable with that decision that it leads you to, you say, that's great. Now it's time to step back and think about, so do you really believe that or not? Or how can you reconcile? The fact that your belief led you to this decision, which you don't like, because most obviously you have other beliefs as well and things don't work out. But what I loved about his approach was this challenge to ourselves that believe your own ideas, trust your intuition, but challenge yourself. Think deeply about these things. Utkarsh Narang (13:04.48) Yeah, it's such a, it's almost like a paradoxical statement, right? That you believe in yourself, but you still need to challenge yourself. It needs to go hand in hand. I love that. I love that. From there, when it went into tech and I'd love to know more about the experiences that because NASA again is something that's like aerospace engineering, you're at the epitome. And then Apple, were there any interactions there that also started now challenge some of your beliefs during these two experiences? Rajiv Mehta (13:12.204) Right. Yes, yes. Rajiv Mehta (13:34.46) Yeah. So on stuff that people would probably want to hear about and so forth, one of the things I led at Apple was I led Apple into the digital camera space. And I was in the sort of the corporate product management marketing area. And so we were kind of like, we ran our products. So like mini GMs, if you want. Not that we had any authority, but that was your task anyway. Utkarsh Narang (13:46.402) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (13:57.507) Hmm. Rajiv Mehta (14:03.403) So I envisioned digital cameras very differently than other people in the industry had been envisioning. So one was kind of where everybody else was looking at digital cameras and how can we make these appeal to people? And it was very hard at the time because the technology wasn't so advanced. And so at the time, a $20,000 digital camera took worse pictures than a $3 disposable camera that you got from some vending machine sitting in the sun. And so how could you possibly compete? And what occurred to me was I started paying attention to when do we not take pictures, which seems like an absurd question because everybody took tons of pictures, you know. But it was things that we now take for granted that we did not do back then. So this is 1990. We did not take pictures of whiteboards. We did not take pictures of where we parked our car. We did not take pictures of something you saw in a magazine that you wanted to look into later. of these are sort of picture notes. They're not the kind of things you're going to put in your photo albums or on a wall. And as I thought about it, these picture notes would be incredibly valuable, but we didn't take them. Why? Well, basically film failed. You know, it was just simply inappropriate for the thing. And what that led me to realize was that there was, in fact, an enormous market for digital cameras. Basically, all of us who took pictures understood the concept. but we had a product that failed. And so now if you could design a product that one could very quickly take a picture and use it as a picture note, that's like, my gosh, we've got the entire world sold on the concept. Let's go for it. So I saw an enormous opportunity just waiting to be addressed where the image quality didn't matter. Like a really bad picture of where you parked your car is plenty good enough as long as you know where you Utkarsh Narang (15:32.098) you Rajiv Mehta (15:59.021) tells you where you parked the car. But the other thing that was also really important was viewing a digital camera not as a camera with a digital film, but rather as a computer specialized for taking pictures. And the reason this tiny little perspective change made a world of difference was that this meant that this was now in Apple's ballpark. As long as it was a camera with digital film, then the game was really Nikon, Canon, Sony, Kodak, all these people. But if this is a computer where the hardware-software combination made a world of difference, oh, that we could compete on. And again, we take it for granted now, a digital camera like your phone, it doesn't ask you whether you want it to be a black and white film or a color film. It doesn't ask you all of these things because, well, we just deal with that in software. And so was able to, around 1990, write Utkarsh Narang (16:30.338) you Rajiv Mehta (16:56.436) essentially a white paper for Apple on why there was an enormous market and why it was ours to sort of be the big dog in. And that led Apple into this. And the key, to tell this long story, that the key point was seeing the world in a different way. Utkarsh Narang (17:05.26) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (17:16.482) I love this question, right? When do you not take pictures? It completely flips the script and allows you to think of these new ideas. And then what you spoke about have these tiny little perspective changes in your journey, whether you're applying it to the digital camera world or to whatever one is doing. That's fascinating. So from that world, which is obsessed, I'm assuming, with scale, speed, innovation, to then this new world that you and I are now talking about, where you... slowed down, where you wanted to notice, where you started to speak about camaraderie and leadership. When did that shift come about, Rajiv? Rajiv Mehta (17:55.224) It happened over time. around 2005, 2006, various technology things I was investigating led me to talk to people in the healthcare world. And what they told me they wanted me to wave my Silicon Valley magic wand and address was something they called non-compliance or non-adherence, which is terminology for you're not following your doctor's instructions. Utkarsh Narang (17:56.769) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (18:20.674) Mm. Rajiv Mehta (18:21.737) He told you to take this pill at 8 a.m. and 8 p.m. and you're not doing it and so forth. And it was explained to me that if I could solve noncompliance, this would be as important as solving cancer. So, you know, I believe them, they know what they're talking about. And I asked why, what was the problem? Why don't we do? And it was explained to me it was either because we didn't understand how important it was and so more education was required or that we were too lazy. We were preferred to spend our time sitting on the couch, gossiping, whatever, than really following the doctor's instructions. And so apparently carrots and sticks were important. And initially, I mean, they're the experts, so okay, I was like, good luck to you. This is not a Silicon Valley problem. But the more I thought about it, the more I got annoyed at their answer. Because one, I discovered that doctors and nurses are no better at this than the rest of us. So, Clearly, education on the topic was not the issue. But also, I did like it from the perspective that you're blaming the worker. And if there's a guy named W. Edward Deming, very famous in the world of quality control, manufacturing, just very influential, and if you take his 80 years of teaching, one of the key lessons was if there's a defect at the end of the assembly line, the last thing you do is blame the workers. People like doing a good job, you hired good people. It's not their fault. It's bad management and impossible tasks, bad tools. Did you remember to turn the power on? It's not the workers. And here we were blaming the workers because we do 99.99 % of the work of caring for ourselves. And so this annoyance got me to look more closely at what is going on there. And so I, you know, just because I'm kind of curious, I started visiting my friends and family and I would be, well, I would be very nosy. I would ask them, what do do to care for yourself? Why isn't that working? Why are these pills in the bathroom? Why are these over here? And I very quickly realized that it was almost impossible for us to follow these doctor's orders. It was in fact literally impossible to follow our own orders because even though like Rajiv Mehta (20:45.205) Taking the pill out of the bottle and putting in your mouth is trivial. Doing it in the context of a busy daily life where you've to get dinner on the table and the kids need a bath and your boss is calling you and the garbage needs to be taken out. It's like, no, we human beings are not built for this kind of mechanistic thing. And it led me into examining what kind of tools could I develop that would help us remember to do and remember that we have done these activities and turning it around by focusing on what is the person trying to do rather than what is the doctor telling them to do. Again, tiny little shift blew everything open because there are all sorts of tools developed by hospitals or for hospitals to help people do the right thing. But then they focus on the things that the doctor cares about, that you take your pill. Whereas you might be into doing breathing exercises or whatever, and those solutions don't allow such things. And so I actually designed solutions that were fundamentally designed to be customizable to whatever you put on your health regimen. And to my complete surprise, because again, I think of myself as an aerospace engineer, within a few years, I started being viewed Utkarsh Narang (22:03.031) Mm. Rajiv Mehta (22:12.011) within certain circles as an expert on consumer health because I had done the absurd thing of going and talking to people. But then that led one to the next. It led me to, in the US, bringing together kind of most of the experts on family caregiving. This was about 2014 to talk about what kind of solutions could we develop to better support families. And one of the most important conclusions we came to was that, honestly, Utkarsh Narang (22:18.594) Hmm. Rajiv Mehta (22:41.097) We, the experts in the room, we, the experts in the country, didn't know what we were talking about in the sense that we had no data on what people do day to day to care for themselves. The best we have are like these surveys done every few years that ask people how much time you spent, what are the things you do. This would be like IBM checking its business progress every three years by talking to their salespeople, say, you know. What can you say about the sales we've won and lost? It's like, nonsense, there's no data. That led to me getting a grant to inventing, testing ways to gather detailed moment to moment, day to day data in people's lives of what do we do to care for ourselves and our families, which turned out to be very successful, very powerful. Completely unexpected thing that happened was I developed, we had to, as a team, develop diagrams of the data we collected. I think of it as maps of daily life. How do you depict what you did yesterday in a way that's very easy to see and assess? And the surprising thing was the families we had studied, whose data we used to create these maps, loved their maps. Utkarsh Narang (23:48.183) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (24:05.868) Hmm. Rajiv Mehta (24:06.927) And at first we're like, how could this be useful? It's your life you gave us the data. But in retrospect, we're so busy living our life that doing this kind of meta analysis is just not done. And so that shifted me to instead of me developing tools for me smart scientists to study those people, how do I develop tools that anyone can use to study their own lives? And so that was a huge shift. It led, oddly enough, given my tech background, to developing pencil and paper tools. They turn out to be far more appropriate for the need than using apps and gadgets and so forth. And again, more more surprises along the way. I developed these tools, I shared them in a blog saying, here's the information, go do it. So I was quite surprised when people reached out and asked me to come and teach workshops on these things. And well, you people ask, I will try. We were blown away at how successful these workshops were. People talked about them as life-changing, which is nice, but it's like, what did I do? And so I had to spend a lot of time investigating what did I do to understand, which led to developing many more tools. And I should maybe pause here a moment on this big monologue to... Utkarsh Narang (25:28.13) Hmm. Rajiv Mehta (25:37.604) say a little bit about tools. You know, in our day-to-day lives, we interact with a lot of people. Some of them are close family and friends, and you're caring for each other, you know, even in the sense of simply helping your grandmother find the TV remote or smiling at the barista because you're there every day. So paying attention to these things, how do you pay attention to them? How do you create a diagram to understand what's going on? Likewise, we live in many different spaces over the course of the day. You're in the room that you're at currently. You might be walking to work. You might be in some cafe. You might be on a train. And it's like taking a moment of mindfulness on each of these spaces to see what is that like? What is the quality of the light? How's the sound and how is all of this affecting you? you know, the light is not simply how bright it is. Like if you're having a romantic dinner, candlelight is kind of nice. If you're trying to do some work, you want bright light. So this kind of thing. So how do we observe these normal day-to-day things and see what they are? And just to close this kind of journey, most of these workshops were in a sense a collection of strangers. So some nonprofit would sponsor it. They would invite people. They didn't know each other. but they were there and they learned a lot. And these are the people already talking about this as life changing. But when I had everybody in a room that was already known to each other, the impact was like an order of magnitude different. They learned so much more about themselves and each other and more unexpectedly, they would talk afterwards of how they had changed as a group. And you know, as again, I had to... Utkarsh Narang (27:20.994) Hmm. Rajiv Mehta (27:35.636) pay attention to what in the world is going on. And I realized that the conversation that began in the workshop simply carried on in their daily lives. And when they ran into each other on the street or whatever, they would continue the conversation. And this had a huge impact on them. sort of really strengthened their bonds, their connection with each other. And if, you know, the friends and family context, it's kind of obvious what that means. in the work context or organizational context, it dramatically increased their sense of camaraderie. That they felt closer to each other, they were more committed to the idea that, know, all for one and one for all, that we're working on a common purpose and we will support each other. And I have to admit in the sense of, know, opening your eyes that for quite a while, I thought of that in the spirit of, isn't that nice? Utkarsh Narang (28:11.426) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (28:31.933) Mm. Rajiv Mehta (28:32.692) They came to learn these things and they learned them. And as a bonus, they were finding more connection. And it wasn't until I had done, I've done these sort of workshops for all sorts of people from, from rabbis and doctors and executives and house cleaners and teenagers, all sorts. had done a series of workshops for some very senior members of the U S military, know, admirals and things like that. And it was one of those guys that opened my eyes again. And I was telling him, sometimes somebody else has to open your eyes for you. And he was telling me how impactful this workshop was. And I said something along the lines of, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's nice, but I want some honest feedback. What could I be doing better? And he, in a very serious tone of voice said, you don't seem to understand. I'm telling you, this is really important. Listen to me. You know, kind of in the sense that, you know, it was effective. Like I know more about this than you do. I've spent my whole career studying this and I'm telling you as an expert that this is groundbreaking. Please take it more seriously. This idea that my approach to helping people see their lives in kind of a communal way, in a collective way was leading to this deeper sense of connection and belonging. this deeper sense of camaraderie and that that was important. Utkarsh Narang (30:05.11) Yeah. It's, it's, it's fast. So, so many things are coming up from that sharing that you just did. So a, how you come back to that point, right? That people were experiencing these workshops and they were life-changing, but it had to be someone else to tell that to you. And you had to be open and curious to learn and what's possible there. What I'm also hearing this whole idea of mapping one's day. I'm seeing a resonance there. Like if someone were to give me a Rajiv Mehta (30:24.893) Right. Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (30:34.306) a data set or a visualization of how I'm spending my day and, and how that kind of impacts me or how that data makes me shift that small perspective shifts that, that we were talking about that to me is powerful through all of this Rajiv. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Rajiv Mehta (30:51.995) Utkash, can I stop you there for a moment? So what you just said is not what I mean. So in the sense that the diagram, the map is important, but it is wrong to think of the diagram, the map as the thing. Almost all the learning happens because you were present. You were thinking about it. You did the drawing. You did the erasing and redrawing. You did the conversation with the other people of here's what I did. Here's what I learned. Here's the conclusion I came to. It's your presence. It's not the data. It's not the diagram. Those are simply kind of tools that get you there, but it's you. And that's why we cannot offload these two devices and smart apps and AI. No, you are the only person who can understand your own. Utkarsh Narang (31:35.808) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (31:46.253) So if you were to nudge a listener right now, and what I'm hearing is that A, that's the awareness, that's the presence that I'll bring to building that map that's going to help me shift something about my own existence in a way. So if someone's listening to us right now, what's a small thought experiment or something that you think that they can do with their environment that will help them build this muscle? Rajiv Mehta (32:10.401) It's really about building awareness. And so the easiest one to talk about is simply care, because we humans are such social animals that care is so fundamental to how we live. So one powerful but simple exercise is to sort of look around the space that you're in at the moment, assuming you're not in a cafe out someplace, but in your home. Utkarsh Narang (32:24.706) Hmm. Rajiv Mehta (32:37.531) and you look around and you see lots of objects. Some are very functional, but maybe not. And think of objects that particularly stand out for you and ask yourself, what memories does that bring up? Why are they there? And so you might have a pen or whatever, which is just the cheap pen. But as an example, I have these two rocks on my desk. They're literally rocks. I pick them up on a beach. But they have been on my desk for 40 plus years. And it was way back when, even before my wife and I got married, that we had gone on a little vacation, you know, when our budget was about enough that we could afford to have peanut butter and jelly sandwiches for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. And we camped out, so our budget was very small. And so we weren't going to be buying any souvenirs or anything like that, but we came upon this one beach. that had all these amazing rocks on it. And so I took a couple of those rocks. They're very nice. They're round. But it's also that they have these amazing memories behind it. And likewise, you you can see this one photo in your view, and it's by this friend of mine, Sayid Nusseba, who's an amazing photographer. And I love the photo in itself, but it reminds me of my friend. It reminds me of his Utkarsh Narang (33:52.482) Yeah. Rajiv Mehta (34:04.692) how he thinks about the world and so forth. And so likewise, if you look around your space, you might discover all sorts of things that really bring you that memory. And it kind of reminds you of how deeply connected you are to other people and your past. Utkarsh Narang (34:23.392) I love that. love that. Here's a challenge that I'm personally grappling with and so I love your views onto it. I've also been trying to let go of things to not stay attached to the past. How does that play in what you and I are speaking about right now? Rajiv Mehta (34:39.368) Hmm. Huh. Well, if I may ask, what is it that inspires you to try to let go of the past? Utkarsh Narang (34:53.196) because I feel that if I stay attached to things around me and to the past, then I'm unable to create space for the future. Rajiv Mehta (35:04.487) Mmm. Mmm. Rajiv Mehta (35:10.381) So, I guess I don't know how to respond to that. I mean, I appreciate the spirit of what you're saying, because I've heard this. It is not, it is not me. Utkarsh Narang (35:16.098) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (35:21.634) Love that. Thank you for that. Thank you for that. Rajiv Mehta (35:24.648) Yeah. I think there's lots of stuff in our past that is pleasurable, great to remember. There's lots of stuff that's not so much. So I would agree with you. Let's give up the things that you are sort of letting run around your mind. It's like, oh, I should have said this differently in my argument with my uncle 10 years ago or something like that. Fine, let it go. But especially things that are pleasurable that remind us of our Utkarsh Narang (35:35.554) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (35:45.218) you Rajiv Mehta (35:51.913) connections to the world, of our family, our friends, what we've been through, why would you? Like, this is sort of related to that. I find it just so weird that there are people that really don't like to say how old they are. It's like, oh, I'm 29 or whatever. It's like, oh my gosh, no, you've lived 63 years. You've learned a lot. That's hard-won wisdom. Respect that. Utkarsh Narang (36:06.85) . Utkarsh Narang (36:13.954) Yeah, yeah, I love that. And I think this conversation is really intriguing. A, just this idea that what you responded with, I think I love that statement. It is not me. And for anyone who's listening to us right now, maybe they're also in a state where they're comparing themselves to someone else just because how attractive or not attractive their life looks. But that's OK. Everyone has their choice and that is not you. So I think that that That statement is a powerful one. Second, I'm reflecting through our conversation, where is this coming for me from, right? And I'm thinking like three, four years ago, I changed countries between India to now living in Australia. And in that moment, I had to let go of lot of things because I could not move everything across continents. And I think that moment then is almost, I want to use the right word, but the word that's coming up is triggered me to start to let go of more so that I don't collect. Rajiv Mehta (36:49.641) Mmm. Rajiv Mehta (36:58.313) Mmm. Utkarsh Narang (37:12.788) in case I have to let go again. And I don't know where they're playing from. Yeah. Rajiv Mehta (37:14.863) Yes. Yeah. And I appreciate that as well in my sense. My wife is much better at getting rid of stuff that's not being used than I am. So we've agreed that I can have a half life system, that things that I'm clearly not using are allowed to go into the garage. And if they're still there in a couple of years and it's still not being used, you know, I'm far more willing to let them go. So yeah, yeah. Utkarsh Narang (37:29.858) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (37:36.864) Yeah, yeah, interesting. Thank you for that openness. I love that. You were saying something? Rajiv Mehta (37:42.781) Yeah, I was going to say that one of the things that I have found through this work has opened my eyes to is that we don't know ourselves or our lives all that well. so, you know, we've had philosophers talk about, advise us to know yourself for a few millennia. So clearly both the importance of and our lack of knowing ourselves is not breaking news. Right. And, and so there is when we reflect on what you were just saying, it's like, how do I need to change or whatever? It's like, don't act first, just stop and pay attention to what is and see if you can get a clearer picture of what is, um, we are kind of socialized to think we need to act first. Like to do something, what are you going to do? And honestly, step one is like, okay, if that's important. start paying attention. See what is. And in a very real sense, see what you learn from that. And so the point being that if there's something in your life that you think is worth changing, whatever, first stop and pay attention. And then maybe you'll discover these are things that I want to hold on to, and these can change. And I want to speak to that for a moment because Part of what I've found is we are socialized to think of any tool as a tool for improvement. So we think use this analytical framework to see what's wrong so you can improve it, which is fair. mean, honestly, we need that. What I've found is when through my workshops and other things, what people talk about mainly afterwards is what they have discovered is good in their lives. And it's like we are unused to looking at that and celebrating that, just letting ourselves enjoy that reality. know, and it is so important. There's a, well, he's passed, but there was a Chilean biologist named Humberto Maturana, who is quite famous in certain circles for biology, but more for what his understanding of biology led to him. Utkarsh Narang (39:48.693) Yeah. Rajiv Mehta (40:07.619) seeing about how we humans work as social networks and so forth. So he's considered one of the founders of the field of organizational behavior and so on and so forth. He had a way of saying things that were very much his own. And he stressed about the question, what do you wish to conserve? And so he emphasized that if you're inclined to make changes on something, first pay attention to What about the current situation do you wish to conserve? What do you really prize in that? Because he points out that once you get aware of that, and once you, your team, whoever agrees that, yeah, that will not change, then everything else is on the table. One of the reasons people are so resistant to change is because they're defending the things that are important to them. And you haven't said what you're not going to touch. And so in this spirit, what do you wish to conserve? Well, Utkarsh Narang (40:53.346) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (41:01.346) Yeah. Rajiv Mehta (41:05.904) Step one is discovering what is it that you wish to conserve. Utkarsh Narang (41:07.522) Yeah. Yeah. I recommend listeners should like really pause the episode right now for a second to really answer this question. What do you wish to conserve? I think it's a really important question. And what you said before this, so many it connects so beautifully. Mirror neurons are getting fired again. Stop and pay attention to what is. And I think we have humans are becoming more human doings than human beings. And so we want to do as soon as there is space. we want to do more. I was with a group of coaches a week ago or so, Rajiv and we were creating our intentions for 2026. My intention was hashtag create space and be more. And then one of them challenged, Utkarsh, if you're creating space and be, where is the need for more arising? And that like, and I still have that posted right here where I've cut out the word more because if you're creating space, just create that space to be. Rajiv Mehta (41:56.808) Mmm. Utkarsh Narang (42:05.602) You don't have to be more because as soon as you do be more, then you're to be inclined to do more. So love where our conversation is going. But I want to understand what does camaraderie mean, Rajiv, because there's a book coming with that title. Rajiv Mehta (42:19.88) Right, Yeah, so, you it's interesting. We use these terms, community, connection, belonging, more rarely camaraderie, and we kind of mix them up together and so forth. What I want to emphasize about camaraderie is it has this implication that you're part of a team and that the team is committed to a common purpose. You know, like from the three musketeers, all for one, one for all. There's this sense that we are working on this. That success means we achieve it. And that sense of common purpose and the sense of supporting each other through that is really critical to camaraderie. So as an example, sort of an alternative example, think of your family. There's this deep sense of belonging, hopefully, deep sense of connection. There's no camaraderie there. We're all living our own lives. It's not like the most of the time, the family does not have a common purpose. Right? And so there, there are these distinctions that are, that are important. Likewise, you might work really hard to instill a sense of community, say in your neighborhood by having people know each other and so forth. And it's distinct then the camaraderie you're trying to create with the team. And so the book I'm writing on camaraderie is focused for kind of leaders of organizations, whether they're business leaders or Utkarsh Narang (43:44.29) Hmm. Rajiv Mehta (43:46.984) leaders of church groups or leaders of soccer teams. It's for those situations where you have a team of people and as a leader you're trying to create a sense of both sort of joy and high performance in very much getting people on the same path. I mean we know, if you're a sports fan of any sort, that on the whole the teams that work as a team Utkarsh Narang (43:48.514) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (44:02.338) Mm-hmm. Utkarsh Narang (44:06.082) Hmm. Rajiv Mehta (44:14.764) usually beat the teams that have a set of superstars who don't pull together. so camaraderie has these intentionality. It has a goal. It has a direction that you're going in, which is distinct from these words of connection, belonging, community. Utkarsh Narang (44:18.626) 100%. Utkarsh Narang (44:34.242) And what are the ingredients according to you? Like, and I know it could be again, a very complex equation that we could figure out and build together. But if you were to look at like the top three ingredients of building camaraderie in any team where there's a leader who's leading that pack, what does that ingredient look like? Rajiv Mehta (44:54.083) So in the book, I really focus on one of the key foundational elements. know, because there's other ones like hire good people and treat them well and so forth. The one key thing is that you must know each other, that you must know these people. You can't assume what they like and don't like and what their lives are like. You actually need to know them because we are human beings, not automatons. Utkarsh Narang (44:58.764) Mm-hmm. Rajiv Mehta (45:21.497) Of course, this implies that you've got to know yourself because somebody else can't know you all that well without you knowing yourself. And so I stress this idea that knowing yourself, knowing your team really well is not sort of a luxury. It's a, isn't that nice? We do that, but no, is fundamental to sustained high performance. And, you know, to be quite honest, as was telling you the story earlier, it was this very senior military officer that opened my eyes to this reality. Utkarsh Narang (45:49.762) Yeah. Rajiv Mehta (45:50.792) I had been thinking of it more kind of as a nice to have luxury before. It's like, no, this is fundamental. This is the starting point. So if know yourself, know your team is so important. How, how do you do that? And there are centuries of ways of doing that. We've had people with great camaraderie long before my book came out. So, but to the extent that most such leaders don't know what to do. Utkarsh Narang (46:03.266) Hmm. Rajiv Mehta (46:17.82) here is an approach that has been proven to be really important, which is, as I've been saying, I have been developing these tools, paper and pencil tools, but a very practical and powerful approach to knowing your own life by being able to explore day-to-day life in a disciplined way. I call this approach personal science. I have to acknowledge, it's not like I've invented this all by myself. I've been working with some amazing people around the world over the last 20 years developing these ideas. They're scientists and journalists and athletes and artists that we all sort of know each other and we work together. So again, don't want to take full credit for this thing. So there's this idea of personal science. A key part of that is really how do you visualize this data? Just seeing numbers, just seeing notes is not enough visualization of the fundamental part of learning. And most of us have not learned the skills of this kind of personal human scale data visualization. This is not stuff that's bar charts and pie charts and nonsense like that. But we haven't grown up with this stuff. So there's a lot of learning ahead. It turns out it is very easy to learn. I mean, I've taught this to eight year olds in second grade. So. I'm also taught it to 95 year olds. So this is doable, but it is new. So there's a learning. And part of that is essentially learning this new vocabulary of design language, but also language of looking at things in a disciplined way, which is very, very much doable. So I talk about in the book, how does one do this? I have lots of stories again from rabbis and Olympic athletes and everybody in between. And then the second key part is it's Again, as you sort of opened up this whole thing, know yourself is not singular. Know yourself is a plural concept. We and, you know, ourselves and the people around us, the objects around us, the spaces around us, we live in this complex world and we can't simplify that away. It's learning to see the complexity is really key. And if we're part of a team, we have to do this discovering. Utkarsh Narang (48:18.135) Hmm. Rajiv Mehta (48:40.593) together, go on a journey together. And there's this idea that I call collective self-reflection. Each of us is exploring our own lives. mean, your spaces around you might be quite different than my spaces around me. My friends and family are probably a distinct set from your friends and family, but we can each do our exploration and come together regularly to talk about what did you learn? How did that feel? You know, and so forth. Utkarsh Narang (48:47.746) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (48:57.046) Hmm. Rajiv Mehta (49:10.021) And we end up both learning so much from the conversation. Like, I really understand myself better when I try to explain my situation to you. As we all know, if we've ever tried to teach anything, but also other people's conversation blows open our eyes. You might say something like, my gosh, that's so true for me. I hadn't thought of that, which is important. You also hear from others things that, you know, it's like, really? Utkarsh Narang (49:20.14) Yeah. Rajiv Mehta (49:38.311) I had never imagined such a thing and it opens your eyes to things, which helps you appreciate the richness of the world. And the process itself of sort of being human with each other about talking about these very human things, you know, managed well, just deep in the bonds. I, you know, there was a few years ago, I was leading a small workshop in Phoenix in the U.S. Utkarsh Narang (50:00.643) Mm. Rajiv Mehta (50:08.593) for a dementia support group. So everybody in the room were people who had family members with dementia, with Alzheimer's, and they were caring for them. And these people had been meeting regularly for two or three years. So you would think they would know each other well. But just after the two hour workshop, one of them spoke up and said, they had come to know each other so much more richly than they ever had before. A well-designed experience of collective self-reflection ends up being very, powerful. So in the book, I explain why camaraderie is important, and here's a way to get there. Utkarsh Narang (50:48.578) Yeah. And I love the idea of collective self-reflection because I've been in certain groups where I understand how someone else is sharing their emotions, their energy could feed so much to me and vice versa. And then when you reflect and teach and all of that, I think all the concepts that you've spoken about, it absolutely lands. It also needs a certain level of vulnerability, right? And the conditions we created, Rajiv, in the room to make sure that collective self-reflection is done with the right energy. So what's worked for you? Like what have you seen as like the again, something that worked in building that collective self-reflection, especially with a group of strangers, because that seems really hard. Rajiv Mehta (51:33.09) It does. And I wish I could create an instruction manual for that part. But it's hard. think, so this is one of the places where I've had to acknowledge to myself that apparently I'm really good at this. That people feel comfortable because of the way I lead these things. People see me as someone who genuinely cares, who's both very Utkarsh Narang (51:48.29) Hmm. Rajiv Mehta (52:01.159) Passionate and but and empathetic and who's also kind of nerdy So, you know, they get both sides and it so it makes it feel comfortable to people. I'm also very comfortable with people not engaging and and so whereas everybody Not everyone but many people feel like they must see that engagement and there have been times and some of these workshops I've led where people were not and in my mind, it's fine Utkarsh Narang (52:04.007) Yeah. Rajiv Mehta (52:31.322) Their life, they know how they're feeling at the moment. I don't. They will engage if they want to engage. And in almost every case, by the end of the workshop, they've been deeply engaged, but you have to be comfortable with that. You also have to be really comfortable with people not following your instructions. Like I explained how to do these things. I really pay no attention to whether they follow my instructions or not. They ask questions. tell them, but I want them to experience their own journey. It's not my journey that's important. It's their journey. And so you can't force fit it. Thirdly, I found that not giving caveats at the beginning is important. So many people try to do these sorts of workshops and they say at the beginning things like, you know, please only share what you are willing to share. You know, you don't need to share anymore. And which I find Off-putting. It's like why and I'm more like These are all smart people. They will share what they want to share not share what they don't want to share I mean, I usually do absolutely say something early that you know, remember everyone This is private. Whatever you hear from others should not leave the room without their permission just be in but I also say it in the sense of be kind be kind to yourself be kind to others don't chastise yourself because Utkarsh Narang (53:31.34) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (53:38.208) Yeah. Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (53:54.58) Hmm. Rajiv Mehta (54:00.176) You're doing something improperly, but likewise, be kind to everybody else and just accepting the notion that they are smart enough to figure out their own things. And yes, they will be kind to each other is really freeing. Utkarsh Narang (54:15.99) Yeah, yeah, that's beautiful. Yeah, yeah. And I think with that, you just create that condition, right, where they can explore it on their own because they're exactly as you were saying, smart people. What's been one, or again, what's been your method for self-reflection because each person has their own? And so what's helped you? Like what kind of process system do you follow for just creating that space for yourself? Rajiv Mehta (54:42.852) Right. Well, it's interesting. two things that I don't do. These kinds of tools I've developed are not meant to be done every day. mean, honestly, who's got the time? It's more like you do it. You look into things when they strike you as important. You try to learn as deeply as you can, and then you get on with it. Also, these, not to criticize them, but these habits of doing meditation every day. Utkarsh Narang (54:46.69) Mm-hmm. Rajiv Mehta (55:09.922) or having mindfulness exercises and things like that. They're just not me. I have friends and family that teach meditation classes that, my father-in-law, wakes up and he's sitting there for the next half hour and it's so important to him. So I don't mean to ridicule these at all. It's just not me. That is not how I do things. I'm just as likely to have interesting thoughts when I go out for a walk and so forth. Utkarsh Narang (55:14.978) you Utkarsh Narang (55:27.84) Hmm. Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (55:37.27) Hmm. Rajiv Mehta (55:40.134) What's really key here is to discover for yourself what works for you and to have the self-confidence that even if you're the only person in the world for who that works for, it doesn't really matter. It works for you. And I think this is a really, really key message. So this is a little bit of a digression, but let me, so we've had 150 years of the rise of professional marketing, professional advertising. Utkarsh Narang (56:08.83) Mm. Rajiv Mehta (56:11.072) And so we've gotten really good at tapping into people's fears and addressing their needs to buy, buy, buy, whatever it is that you're selling. And, you know, not to criticize that, because in many ways this has helped us do a lot of amazing, innovative things. But there is no equivalent marketing campaign to tell us how smart we are. And to think for yourself is a good thing. So in the world of health, just more Utkarsh Narang (56:19.051) Hmm. Right. Rajiv Mehta (56:40.559) Generally, you practically never read an article about health and wellbeing that doesn't have some statement in there about, know, talk to your doctor first, talk to your therapist. Nowhere does it say, think for yourself, talk to your sister. But that should be front and center as the first place you go. And so I think one of the really key lessons that people come out of reading my book, doing these workshops is that They are so capable of seeing their own lives. And in fact, they know their life better than anybody else does or can. Utkarsh Narang (57:23.042) I love that. Discover for yourself what works and then have the confidence to do it even if no one else does. That's such a powerful message. As we get to this final segment of our conversation, Rajiv, now if we go to that, you said somewhere, I think you were 64. So in 16 years from now, if that 80 year old Rajiv comes to you right now and has one piece of advice on how you should lead the rest of your years, what would that 80 year old Rajiv say? Rajiv Mehta (57:52.901) Well, assuming I stay me, the advice is going to be, don't pay any attention to what I say. It's like, you already know more than you enough to live your life as you think best. Pay attention to yourself. You know, it's this is I mean, I am no Indian scholar, but never mind. So at the end of the Mahabharat, Yudhishthira is the only one who gets to go into heaven directly. And you're like, how is this possible? This is a man that Utkarsh Narang (58:02.083) you Rajiv Mehta (58:23.129) gambles excessively, who traded away his wife and all of these bad things. But throughout the Mahāvārata, he was always true to himself, you know, which is sort of at the real heart of sort of Hindu philosophy. And this is what it's like, you know yourself, trust yourself. you know, being able to stick with what you believe, being open that you may not be right is the really important part. So not be waiting for some 80 year old person to give you any advice. Utkarsh Narang (58:58.998) Be true to yourself and trust yourself. Such a beautiful conversation, Rajiv, and to everyone who's still listening to us and are into this conversation. Don't pay attention to your current self. Don't pay attention to your future self and what he has to say. What you know is all that you need to know and trust yourself. Be true to yourself. Discover for yourself what you need to do and be, and then have the confidence that will work for you. I think the big message that I'm taking away is that if this is not you, that's absolutely OK. And you have to have the confidence of making sure that you agree to that. Rajiv Mehta (59:38.425) Yeah. And just don't forget that last part. Be open to the idea that you might be wrong. Utkarsh Narang (59:43.841) Yeah, be open to that idea that you might be wrong and ask yourself. That's what Rajiv and I are letting you go with. What do you wish to conserve? And I think it's a beautiful question to ask. It's a beautiful question to ask. And sometimes it's OK to just stop and pay attention to what is. You don't have to fill the gaps. You don't have to do more. Just be. Believe in yourself, but challenge yourself, which is what's important. And if you're open to exploring, then your inner voice and outer voice will always keep guiding you. on the right. Thank you Rajiv for that beautiful conversation. We'll put all the links in the show notes and people can follow you. I really appreciate your time today. Rajiv Mehta (01:00:25.228) Thank you very much. Utkarsh Narang (01:00:26.722) Absolutely. This is Utkarsh and Rajiv signing off. If you're on a podcast platform, do not forget to share it with someone who might enjoy this. Not everyone's ready for deep conversations. If they are, then share it with them. And if you're on YouTube, then leave your comment name. What did you take away from this conversation? Because Rajiv and I are both reading and listening to all that's coming. Thank you.