Utkarsh Narang (00:00.789) Welcome to another episode of the IgnitedNeurons Podcast. Today, I'm going to talk to a guest about something that I think all of us do a million times a day. We all take decisions. You can take a decision right now if you want to watch this podcast or not. I took a decision whether I want a blue light behind me or a red. I took a decision of wearing this black sweater or not. Prathmesh took the decision of coming here or not. And so we all take decisions of different magnitude throughout the day. In our conversation today, which will be slightly different from our usual conversations, but we'll talk about this 5x5 framework. that Pratmesh shared with me over a cup of coffee when we met in Melbourne. And we'll go through this and see how it impacts each one of us. How are you going Pratmesh? Prathamesh Gosavi (00:40.436) doing good thank you so much Utkarsh for having me here super excited Utkarsh Narang (00:43.413) Absolutely. Looking forward to the conversation, my friend. And there's this ritual that we have at the podcast, right? Where the first question will not be about decisions, will not be about astronomy or anything else, but it will be about that eight-year-old Prathmish. The eight-year-old Prathmish growing wherever that Prathmish was. If that eight-year-old boy were to come and meet you right now, what kind of a conversation will emerge? Prathamesh Gosavi (01:12.014) Honestly speaking, think I have to start with this. The 8 year old me and the current version of me, don't think we will recognize each other at all. Because the life has changed so much in the last these many years. To be very honest with you, I don't even remember a lot of my life when I was 8 year old. I remember a few glimpses of it. I remember I was a naughty kid. but I was studious, was good with academics, I was taking care of my brother, I was involved in theater, I was involved in a lot of particular activities. probably one conversation which I would definitely have is just pat that 8 year old's back and say hey dude. whatever you're doing, keep doing it. Stay curious, stay hungry, stay foolish. Do as many things as you can. Don't try to be someone who fits into the crowd. Be whoever you are. Prathamesh Gosavi (02:20.913) there will be no regrets. And just one advice, live a life of no regrets. This life is a fun thing, it's a beautiful thing and just enjoy it to the best possible degree you can. Probably that's the... limit of that conversation going to be because in the last whatever 20, 25 years there have been so many ups and downs, have been so many changes in directions, there have been so many times when I've crashed my life down to zero and rebuilt it that even I don't know how I got here to be honest with you. Right? So I'm very sure I won't recognize myself when I was eight year old. and these two personalities are very different. Utkarsh Narang (03:13.429) So much thought and wisdom in that answer because these words are curious, hungry and foolish and don't try to be someone who fits into a mold and live a life of no regret. I truly believe Prathamesh, if people were to really follow this to the T and it's really hard. I've lived what you've just said and between Prathamesh Gosavi (03:35.744) is. Utkarsh Narang (03:41.297) right now and 24 hours ago. The last 24 hours have been so reflective for me personally. Like what the hell am I doing? Some days, some days it's like you don't, the energy is like not in the right place, right? Where it feels like I should have chosen some other path and, and, and, and you still go down that path and it's a decision, right? It's a decision that both you and I are taking. Prathamesh Gosavi (04:03.224) Yes. Yes, yes. And that's fun part, right? So now that we are already in the topic of decisions, my brother asked me this question yesterday, right? How do I tell the world who am I? I always struggle with that question. And my answer to that question was very simple. We are the sum of all the choices we've made in the past. Right? Utkarsh Narang (04:06.984) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (04:25.052) Hmm. Prathamesh Gosavi (04:34.306) There are some choices in our life which have a huge impact on us. For example, the kind of careers we choose, the kind of partners we date, the kind of whether we exercise daily or not, our food habits. All of these are compounding and all of these have a big impact on our life. Then there are some which are very negligible impact on our lives. For example, the kind of clothes we But essentially, our life is nothing but a summation of the choices we've made in the past. And if we really expand or zoom out, life is nothing but an endless game of choices and consequences. From the day we are born to the day we die. It is nothing but certain set of choices being made, the consequences being created, which lead to the next set of choices, which lead to the next set of consequences, and on and on it goes. Utkarsh Narang (05:35.647) Yeah, yeah. But it's so hard, right? Because and this question, who am I? If listeners who have listened to this podcast for a while, we're on episode maybe 38 right now. This question is very close to my heart because to be able to define who you are first, honestly to yourself and then to the world is a superpower. But choices and consequences, you know how I think about this and why this, why I was intrigued to have this conversation with you. See, it's a It's a choice that I can make in any moment, right? If I want to choose to do something, I will do it. If I don't want to choose to do something, I will not do it. And so every decision we make is a choice and has a consequence. I'm always baffled by this equation, right? Like what propels someone to choose to exercise versus someone to not? We all know that if we exercise, we will stay healthier. We will stay hopefully alive for longer. we'll have less chances of having a heart attack or like obesity. But still not everyone on the planet exercises. We all know that watching continuous amounts of television is not going to help you and you might want to read a book here and there, but not everyone will do it. So what is it? Like, like break it down. What is, according to you, that, that structure that people use to make decisions? Prathamesh Gosavi (06:58.99) So, in my view, let's break it down into two parts. When it comes to decision making, all of us are making decisions on multiple levels. The first level of which is the decisions we make for ourselves, which is level one. So these are all kinds of personal decisions, our education, our career, our lifestyle, our food choices, way we invest our money. All of these are deeply personal choices. On level two, we start making decisions as teams. So this is where family comes into play. This is where business comes into play. This is where sports comes into play. So you have a cricket selection team, which is deciding the 11 players who will represent India. They will make certain set of choices as a team on the field, so on and so forth. On third level we start making decisions as a society. So all kinds of protests, kinds of rioting, all kinds of lobbying, all sorts of elections, all of these are decisions we are making as a society. For example, yesterday there was, day before yesterday there was a big protest that spurted up in Nepal. Right? Where there was a section of society which came to the roads, they violently expressed their anger, burned down a few buildings. Right? That was a decision as a society. On level 4, we make decisions as nation states. So India is making certain decisions, Australia is making decisions, America is making decisions, all different countries are making decisions. And it's not just the governments who making these decisions, there are government aid data bodies who are also making those decisions. So for example, in India you've got Reserve Bank of India, Supreme Court of India, all of these are quasi-government institutions, but they're defending and protecting and advancing national interests. Right? Utkarsh Narang (08:54.783) Right. Prathamesh Gosavi (08:55.072) And on level 5 you have multilateral bodies like UN, WHO, IMF or multinational groupings like G20, SCO, BRICS. The decisions made on these global stages affect the entire human civilization or technically the entire planet. So these are the 5 levels on which we are making decisions. Now coming to your question, how are we making those decisions? All these five levels, on all these five levels, the decisions have only five fundamental building blocks. Right? The first one of which is identity. The question of who am I? Right? Second is personality. Am I a pessimistic person? Am I an optimistic person? Right? Am I talkative? Utkarsh Narang (09:38.005) Hmm. Prathamesh Gosavi (09:53.355) Personality essentially is nothing but a summation of all our behavioral patterns. How are we behaving? How are we reacting? Right? How are we thinking? Third, now this is the most important building block. The third building block is our purpose. What is our purpose? Right? What is the... What are we here for? Right? In movies, like there a character, right? There is a role of There is a character. Utkarsh Narang (09:58.166) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (10:09.832) Anyway. Utkarsh Narang (10:20.597) We'll pause. We'll pause. We'll have to use only English. The audiences. So we'll start with purpose again. Level three. Prathamesh Gosavi (10:22.134) There is a work for that, that specific reason it that stage. The third building block is purpose. Why are we on this planet? What is the role that we are supposed to play? The fourth is called motivation. Now the interesting part is what is the difference between purpose and motivation, right? Motivation is typically triggered by an external event. I've watched some reel on Instagram of some people roaming around in Greece. They've posted beautiful pictures. Hey, I also want to go to Greece now. I am looking at someone posting a reel, doing a workout regime in some gym with some kickass background music. I get pumped up even I want to workout. But I am sure all of you may relate that motivation comes in and it goes away. That motivation to workout stays within the body for 5 minutes, 5 hours, 5 days at the max and then goes away. Which is why building a habit is so difficult. Working out every day is so difficult because the motivation comes in and the motivation goes away. But purpose on the other hand is a long-term internal driving force which typically does not change. Elon Musk for example, he is driven by a singular purpose of making human consciousness multi-planetary. Utkarsh Narang (11:53.109) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (12:08.597) Hmm. Prathamesh Gosavi (12:10.382) He has been operating out of that single purpose for the last, I don't know, 20, 25, 30, probably years. Right? The reason why he started Tesla, the reason why he started SpaceX, the reason why he started a pouring company, the reason why he bought Twitter, started New Darling, doing all of these crazy things, including getting involved in politics last year to make sure Trump wins. All of that was driven by a single purpose of making human consciousness multi-planetary. It's not changing. Right? So there's a difference between purpose and motivation. And the last is called trade. Trade is nothing but how are we exchanging value? What is the value you create and what is the value you consume? Right? To take a simpler example, doctor. Let's take a character called doctor. Right? This doctor can be a doctor of heart, a doctor of surgery, a doctor of whatever different... disciplines and specializations. But the identity is I'm a doctor, I'm a surgeon. That's a part of your identity. Doctors also exhibit different kinds of personalities. There are some doctors who are very friendly. You feel very good talking to them. You can share your problems with them. There are some doctors who are very scared. Especially the closer you go into the world of surgeons and specialist surgeons, they get scarier sometimes, right? So for example, orthopedic surgeon who is going to fix your bone, typically you will be scared of them, right? Because they're using all of this kind of machinery like a set of carpenters. But their purpose is to treat their patient. Their purpose is as a doctor to make sure that the patient is healing from their wounds and diseases. They themselves can be motivated by multiple things at different points in time. Even they can feel motivated to work out and go for a trip and enjoy luxuries of life. But their purpose is to treat their patients. And that is the value that they're creating, right? Utkarsh Narang (14:10.227) Right. Right. Utkarsh Narang (14:19.113) Hmm. Prathamesh Gosavi (14:23.598) And to create that value they have to consume a lot of things. They have to set up their operation theatre, they have to buy all of this equipment, so on and so forth. The combination of this turns into or translates into all the decisions we make across our lives. And these five building blocks essentially apply for all the five levels as well, right? So if you look at India as a country or Australia as a country or America as a country. Utkarsh Narang (14:27.401) Yeah. Yeah. Prathamesh Gosavi (14:50.028) The country, the nation also has an identity, it has its own personality, it has its own purpose, it has its own motivations and of course it has its own trade as well. Utkarsh Narang (14:55.967) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (15:03.687) Let's pause and pull back on this. what I'm drawing it as I'm speaking with you. So there are five levels of at which decisions are made. Individual, team, society, nation plus state, and then the multinational, multi, there's multi-dimensional for example. And then the five building blocks that you spoke about were the first one is identity, who am I? The second is personality. The third is purpose, which is the internal drive that we spoke about. The fourth is Prathamesh Gosavi (15:09.518) you Prathamesh Gosavi (15:19.63) global. Cheers. Utkarsh Narang (15:33.558) the motivation, is the which comes and goes, which is never permanent. And then the fifth is trade. Let me take my example, Prathmesh. so I let's talk about this podcast, right? Why did Utkarsh start this podcast? So that was a decision that was taken by an individual because that individual and challenge me wherever you feel like. I want to use this as an example so that our listeners can can put themselves in my shoes and say that they go to a nine to five job. They are thinking of leaving their job and starting a business. They are entrepreneurs, but they feel like they want to get back to a job. They're parents and they feel like they want to do something else with their kids, things like that. So all, all the decisions that they can start to put themselves in these shoes. So Utkar started a podcast because his identity that he understood was that he operates by a certain set of values. I should say I, he sounds very, very Prathamesh Gosavi (16:17.816) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (16:31.017) weird. I operate with a set of values and then I see my identity as someone who can have good conversations, who can deeply listen and who has the curiosity to learn more from the guests that comes on the podcast. So, the podcast became an extension. I as an individual took that decision. Then I took, yeah, pause, pause me and Prathamesh Gosavi (16:52.31) I just want to add a question. When you say that Utkarsh feels that he can learn a few things from meeting all these different bunch of people, Utkarsh is curious. So I just want to unpack a few things here. You being curious is a part of your personality. With or without the podcast, you are a curious individual. It's a part of your personality. Utkarsh Narang (16:54.538) Yes. Utkarsh Narang (17:14.143) Correct. Correct. Yeah. Prathamesh Gosavi (17:21.122) The ability to extract information, valuable information from people you meet. I would argue it as a part of a trade. Utkarsh Narang (17:32.298) got it. Got it, okay, I agree with that. Prathamesh Gosavi (17:37.974) Right? From an identity point of view, identity is a funny thing, right? Because none of us have singular identity. All of us have a cluster of identities. But probably one of your identities is that of a coach. Utkarsh Narang (17:55.38) right. Hmm. Prathamesh Gosavi (17:58.287) So if I can put it that way, Utkarsh is a coach, that is his identity. Utkarsh is curious, that is his personality. Utkarsh can extract a lot of information, valuable information from the people he meets, that is a part of his trade. Sorry, go on. I just unpacked the... Utkarsh Narang (18:05.577) Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (18:18.197) trade. Got it. No, I love it. I love it. think the way you unpacked it. So I was thinking it as you need dimensional, but what you've done is you've put different parts of what I shared into identity, into personality, into trade. And I'm also thinking of the purpose because there is a larger purpose that I am driven by, which is to touch a billion lives. And I feel the podcast is an extension of helping me get to that purpose. So that's very clear. And then we add to that the individual level. So individual made a decision and that works. And then individual went back to the team, which could be his team who helps operationalize all of this. And then we together thought that this is the right thing to do. Prathamesh Gosavi (19:01.198) Yes. Utkarsh Narang (19:02.357) And there were no other layers involved. while I talk about that, I'm going to fix the screen. Yeah. Prathamesh Gosavi (19:06.062) No worries, no worries. No worries. So of course there will be motivations also involved and from a level point of view things play out distinctly right? So even on the team level it's not just the operationalization of it but also how your podcast is being perceived outside, how the podcast is getting distributed. There's so many different layers to it, the kind of conversations you had or have with people. Utkarsh Narang (19:14.165) Hmm. Prathamesh Gosavi (19:35.499) There's a lot of feedback that might be coming your way right as an individual you are safe Save this podcast was your brainchild You are the primary person driving this podcast, but you are also probably receiving a lot of feedback from other team members now as a team There are certain decisions that you must be doing for sure right in terms of when do you? Utkarsh Narang (19:38.389) Hmm. Prathamesh Gosavi (19:58.731) Let's say the date on which you have to release a podcast, how do you cut, how many reels do you extract from a singular podcast? All these kinds of operational decisions from a content creator lens. Right? But again, in their own lives, they're also an individual living their own bubble of reality. right? They are in a different time space and they have their own version of reality versus ours. And that is shaping their perspectives, that is shaping their personality. They are coming back to you saying, hey, I looked at the podcast, these are the things that I liked, these are the things that I did not like. And again, as a team, you are making a decision on how do you decide the future direction. Utkarsh Narang (20:18.196) Right. Utkarsh Narang (20:28.117) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (20:41.151) Got it. Prathamesh Gosavi (20:42.026) So all of it is very fungible, all of it is in a way very esoteric, but it still makes sense. Utkarsh Narang (20:47.796) Yeah. Yeah, it does. does. And what I'm also thinking is because it touched upon different parts of your, I'm calling it the X axis because I've put the building blocks on the X and the levels on Y. So because for me, it's touching different levels of the X axis, which is my identity, my personality, my motivation, my purpose, my trade. Then it becomes easier. Now, let me reverse the script and flip it completely. I've been working with a coachee. who works at one of the biggest US companies, Technology companies. And since working from home, their challenge has been that they've not been efficient. They're procrastinating. They are in a state where they are looking at their phone too often and too much, which leads for them to not be fully productive in the work that they need to do. And so I've been coaching them for about three or four weeks now. Prathamesh Gosavi (21:31.95) . Utkarsh Narang (21:48.094) And in that three, four week time, we tried to work on their identity. We tried to work on, but the, but the biggest barrier was that they've still not accepted that identity. So they were not, they were wanting to change, but they were unable to change. When I met them earlier this week, they've been told by the company that you're on a performance improvement plan. Now you have three months either figure it out or it's time to exit. Prathamesh Gosavi (22:13.55) you Utkarsh Narang (22:17.267) And now comes the biggest fear of losing the job. so that fear, when we were speaking, they uncovered that the fear is actually motivating them. How do you unpack all of this in this matrix? Prathamesh Gosavi (22:32.276) Again, I think you answered the question yourself also right that fear has become their motivator and in that motivation probably they'll push some years and put in extra efforts and try and present themselves better in the in this performance improvement period I'm guessing that's four weeks, six weeks, eight weeks. Every company has different policies but the larger issue probably Utkarsh Narang (22:39.541) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (22:52.842) Hmm. Prathamesh Gosavi (23:01.934) So especially when it comes to jobs and careers, right? There are titles which fancy us, right? I want to be the senior manager of this, this, this. I want to be the CEO of this, this, this company. In a way, we are craving a certain set of identity because we feel that will give us happiness. Ultimately, that's all we are seeking, Happiness and sense of fulfillment from the... Utkarsh Narang (23:09.013) Hmm. Prathamesh Gosavi (23:28.31) life that we are living. Of course, we need money to afford the lifestyle that we want to desire. But that is essentially where I've seen the most disconnect coming from. From an applicant point of view, I am chasing that title. I am chasing that designation because I see value in that title, social value in terms of how the society will perceive me, whether they will call me a successful person or not. Utkarsh Narang (23:45.599) Hmm. Hmm. Prathamesh Gosavi (23:57.967) So that is the third level which is triggering because all of us are seeking validation from the society and validation from the higher levels as many as possible. That's essentially why marriage is also complicated to a certain degree. Whether the society will accept this marriage or not. On the other side, a business, business is a team. On its own, it has its own distinct identity. Utkarsh Narang (24:01.524) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (24:05.011) Yeah. Prathamesh Gosavi (24:25.816) For the business, that particular role, it's not just a fancy title. It's a bunch of responsibilities and duties that will be duly compensated for. Utkarsh Narang (24:37.589) Yeah, yeah, it's interesting. Prathamesh Gosavi (24:40.832) So from a business point of view, the trade angle or the trade building block is much more valuable, much more important. The value that you will create for that business is much more important than any designation that you will get. You may be called the janitor of the company, but if you're making sure that the company is earning a billion dollars in revenue every year, you will treat it very differently. Utkarsh Narang (25:08.201) Yeah. Yeah. Prathamesh Gosavi (25:10.158) So the conflict really is between what are you seeking, you are identity or you are seeking trade which is creating value or you are seeking alignment and purpose. Because if you as an individual know your whole purpose and that is balanced and aligned with the company that you working for, then I very sure that this problem will never emerge out. where someone has to put into a performance improvement plan because they're not performing. It's not possible. Utkarsh Narang (25:42.166) got it. Yeah, yeah. So now if if anyone who's listening to Prathmesh, if we were to tell them that we have given you these five levels, the individual team, society, nation and global, and then we've given you these five building blocks of identity, personality, purpose, motivation and trade. If they now want to sit down and they feel and it's a feeling, right? feeling or feedback? If they feel that a decision that they've been taking has not been serving them or they received the feedback, whether that's through medical reports, whether that's through a spouse, whether that's through a manager in a PIP, whatever that might be. It's not working for them. What's your one piece of advice? How do they use this matrix to take better decisions? Prathamesh Gosavi (26:30.35) Let's probably zoom out of the framework for a minute for this. So again, earlier we spoke about this lifelong game of choices and consequences, right? Every choice you are making has a set of consequences. There are two types of consequences, right? One is the consequences that one is the consequence we want our desired consequence, our desired outcome. Right. For example, if I go to a casino and I bet $10, right, my desired consequences, I should get 3X money back. I should win $30. Right. But there are always undesired consequences. In most cases, they're not. Utkarsh Narang (26:59.711) Hmm. Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (27:14.844) right right Prathamesh Gosavi (27:24.462) once you decide to gamble money you are going to lose a lot of And same is the case with every other choice. There is a desired consequence and then there is an undesired consequence. And in that sense every choice we make is towards a certain desire. If I'm wearing a certain type of clothes, if I'm keeping a certain style of my facial hair, if I'm pursuing a certain kind of career, it's always because there is a certain desire which is fueling Now that desire transpires itself as purpose or as motivation, depending on context. But to answer your question, Utkarsh Narang (27:54.741) Hmm. Prathamesh Gosavi (28:08.686) I think the most valuable pursuit in life is to try and identify our purpose because identity is fungible. We humans have a superpower. We can discard our identities at will. We can change our names. We can change our nationalities. We can change our professional identities. I can be an engineer today, a businessman tomorrow, a teacher tomorrow. Right, so we can choose and discard our identities as well, so it is fungible. Motivation is anyway temporary. Skills we can pick up. Right, we can learn new skills. Purpose is the core driver of our life. So, irrespective of what anyone's age is, I think the pursuit of finding one's purpose is very important because once possible, purpose is identified. Utkarsh Narang (28:44.469) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (28:52.979) Yeah. Yeah. Prathamesh Gosavi (29:06.766) then the rest, all of the things get aligned. I think this is the same thing which we were also speaking earlier. Once you know that my purpose is to help a billion lives, a billion people live better lives, you can do that as a coach, you can do that as a podcaster, you can do that as a content creator, you can do that in multiple roles. So then the identity essentially becomes secondary. Utkarsh Narang (29:09.033) Yeah. Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (29:23.039) Good. Yeah. Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (29:33.354) Yeah. Prathamesh Gosavi (29:33.666) your designation, your title in your job becomes secondary. What matters is you fulfilling your purpose. Utkarsh Narang (29:36.606) Yeah. Yeah. I think a push I'm going to make on this then is that purpose will get built over time. I did not have my purpose 15 years ago. I have a purpose now and it took time for me to get there. I think what I'm also nudging then towards Prathmesh is that the identity needs to be deeper. The identity needs to be more than just a manager, a leader, a founder, content creator, a coach. It has to be deeper as to who am I within. And so Prathamesh Gosavi (30:00.014) Thank Utkarsh Narang (30:08.329) these five values that drive me to me, they form my identity. And so these values of discipline, freedom, growth, love and presence. So those values drive my identity, which then allows me to pursue my purpose, which then allows me to make decisions based on that. I think there's a lot to unpack and I think I'm going to say that we're going to leave the listeners today with this much and allow them to put in the comments. share it on with us on LinkedIn, email, whatever works to build a conversation around this because this matrix I think is much deeper than where we have reached today. And we could do so much more with this Prathamesh. Would you agree with this? Yeah. Yeah. Love it. Love it. Amazing. Yeah. This was a shorter episode of the Ignite Neurons podcast, Prathamesh. Thank you for igniting our neurons and bringing this idea to us. Prathamesh Gosavi (30:50.222) 100 % 100 % we have not even scratched the surface yet. Utkarsh Narang (31:05.961) For those who are still listening, if you are, then you might value a conversation with me or Prathmesh. so reach out to us. We're both on LinkedIn, Instagram, wherever you want to find us. We'll put all the links in the comments and in the show notes. And look forward to seeing what emerges, Prathmesh. Prathamesh Gosavi (31:20.536) Thank you so much for having me. This was a very interesting conversation. Utkarsh Narang (31:23.401) Yeah, amazing. Talk to you soon, my friend.