Utkarsh Narang (00:01.465) If you're someone who feels that creativity is just a spark and it happens every now and then where a bolt from the the the heavens above or the clouds above strikes you, then you got to meet this guy because this person has been creating amazingly simple ideas depicted visually on Instagram, on YouTube, on LinkedIn, wherever you will find him. And if the number of ideas that he's built were to be equated with the lightning bolt, it'll be a tough math for us to follow. And so what I'm going to maybe figure out today and we know about it through the podcast episode is that is creativity something that is a spark or is it something that is a process? But I'm looking forward to this conversation with Pejman who joins me from the US and it's a beautiful evening, Pejman. How are you today? PJ (@milanicreative) (00:49.518) I'm doing well, man. I'm excited to have this conversation. I know we've been talking about it. So yeah, thank you for having me thank you for those very lovely and kind words. Utkarsh Narang (00:58.421) Absolutely, looking forward to it. And I'll quickly also share my screen because this is something that I want to kind of try for folks and see what emerges because there are some very insightful things that you build, Pejman. And I'm a fan of how you take a big idea and break it down into such simple thoughts. Now, three pencils and a sharpener. And this is what leadership does to you. Your mind. before writing, during writing, after writing. These are some beautiful ideas that if you were to just put these as wallpaper on your screen, I think it'll help you take action. It'll help you be a better version of yourself. I love this one as well. Fear, when you don't face it and when you keep maybe overthinking about it, it is a huge thing. But when you face it, it becomes small. And so, today we'll find a way to also explore how these ideas come into reality. But how we typically start the podcast episode is, if that eight-year-old PJ, young little boy who was doing his own thing, living his own dreams, wherever he was, if that eight-year-old boy were to come and meet you right now, what kind of a conversation will emerge between the two of you? PJ (@milanicreative) (02:21.526) if my eight year old self and I were to meet right now in today's world, or I would travel back to meet him, I suppose. So, you know, I think it would probably, it's interesting. So I think the first thing I would say to, I would probably start a conversation. The first thing I would say to myself Utkarsh Narang (02:31.286) Up to you. Up to you. PJ (@milanicreative) (02:51.53) at eight years old is probably thank you and The reason for that is I think it was actually when I was eight. It's funny you said eight years old because I think it was when I was eight that I had probably the most impactful, I guess, formative experience of how I thought about my own abilities to accomplish things. And, you know, I wasn't born in the States. You know, we moved from Iran. when I was six years old. And I struggled at school because my parents just dropped me into a school. My very first school experience was in the middle of first grade. The year was already going. It was December something. I remember, first off, waking up at six something in the morning. I was like, why are we waking up so early? I've never gotten up so early in my life. So was my very first school experience. I don't speak English very well. And so I struggled, you know, and I got through first grade, but when I got to second grade around the time I was eight, you know, I didn't understand what was going on. So I just copied the students around me and I'm assuming the teachers were like, hey, that's not okay. And so my mom and my teacher had a conversation and my mom chose at that moment to PJ (@milanicreative) (04:33.24) change her approach, I guess, to how I approached school. And so she kind of created this negotiation with me and she was like, look, here's what we're gonna do. You're gonna do work when you get home up until this time, and I'm gonna help you and I'm gonna be doing it with you. And when you finish it, we can play. Now, you I hadn't really spent a lot of time. playing with my parents. I was a second child. I was usually just trying to figure out what to do with my time on my own. I would just usually be like, psh, psh, psh, you know, just like playing, making worlds in my mind. So it was not something that we normally did together. So we would do our work and then directly after that, we'd play board games or we'd play like tic-tac-toe, nothing like crazy. just, you we didn't have a lot of money. Utkarsh Narang (05:06.042) Thank Utkarsh Narang (05:17.018) Hmm. PJ (@milanicreative) (05:31.448) We grew up actually quite poor, so we just made up whatever games we could. Now, fast forward that a bit. I started doing really well in school then. And the funny thing is I've never really considered myself particularly smart or particularly talented, but... Utkarsh Narang (05:42.97) Hmm. PJ (@milanicreative) (05:54.198) It was around that time that I, and I can only look at this now in hindsight to point at that moment, but it was probably around that time that I realized and developed this unshakable, probably have no business believing confidence in my ability to figure things out. you know, I try to share this lesson with my son, both my sons. Utkarsh Narang (05:58.981) Mm. PJ (@milanicreative) (06:22.056) and trying to instill it into them because anytime I've ever been faced with a challenge or a problem, I've just thought to myself, I will figure this out. It's just a matter of time. Now, there are things I can't do. Like I can't play for the NBA because of physical limitations, but I just have this belief, whether it's true or not, it helps me overcome any kind of limiting beliefs that, okay, this is something that is a problem. Now some problems are not solvable. They're only, more manageable, but at the very least I have, again, this belief that I can chip away at something that feels impossible to make it a little bit more possible. And that's probably what even got me started in posting online at 42 years old. And so, Utkarsh Narang (07:02.97) Mm. Utkarsh Narang (07:13.434) Mmm. PJ (@milanicreative) (07:16.712) I would say that the start of that conversation would probably start with me saying thank you to my eight year old self. And I think my eight year old self would probably, if I can remember back around that time, I remember when I was younger, I would just constantly be thinking about, know, gosh, I want to be happy. You know, like I would think about that. would think about what would be the things that would make me happy. beautiful wife, you know, a nice house, you know, these kinds of things that we all kind of attribute happiness to. So I have this like strong suspicion that my eight year old self would probably ask me, are you happy? And. I think I would reply back with something to the effect of PJ (@milanicreative) (08:13.304) happiness should never have been the goal. it's, you know, I think I've realized as I've gotten older and there's a really, I think if you're familiar with Arthur C. Brooks, he wrote the book, From Strength to Strength and he's written for the Atlantic. He talks a lot about happiness and he studies it. Really, really thoughtful guy, love his work. And I think it was a piece. I know it was a piece in the Atlantic, but I also know that he wrote it in one of his books. And this is just kind of stuck in my head. He made this metaphor or connection to Mick Jagger and Rolling Stones. You know, I can't get no satisfaction. It's really, I can't keep no satisfaction. so happiness is one of those things where the reason I don't think it's a helpful goal to have is that it's not Utkarsh Narang (08:58.81) Mm. PJ (@milanicreative) (09:10.542) anything that's ever sustainable. And if you approach it with, I wanna be happy, you're just gonna constantly be living in this state of unhappiness and disappointment because you just can't ever realistically meet that expectation, at least not in a sustained way. again, it's like, I've gotten older, kind of, you I like to use metaphors. kind of see it as, you know, if you're, if you if you imagine like the mountain ranges, You know, if you're driving towards the mountain, you can see it. And if you're driving away from the mountain, you can see it in the rear of your mirror, but you can't tell you're on a mountain or you can't see the mountain when you're on the mountain. And so happiness is one of those things where you can look back on your life and be like, I was really happy then. Or you can look forward and be like thinking, if I get there, I will be happy. But once you're on it, sometimes you just Utkarsh Narang (09:43.151) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (09:51.298) Thank PJ (@milanicreative) (10:09.08) don't know, you don't feel it. that's kind of probably at least I suspect the conversation that would happen with my eight year old self. Utkarsh Narang (10:10.34) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (10:21.71) Fascinating. I always it's amazing how this one question just throws us in the deep end of the pool because it's a really deep retrospective question to ask to your eight year old yourself and have this conversation. So one thing I tell our listeners is always have a notepad while you're listening to this. I know people watch it and see it and listen to these podcasts on their treadmills and while working out. But the best is to do it with a notepad because PJ (@milanicreative) (10:30.274) Mm-hmm. Utkarsh Narang (10:50.808) The first thing you spoke about was saying thank you. Then the unshakeable confidence started to happen in this age and how your mother played a role in helping you in negotiating with you, how it's important to your work. And then this conversation around happiness, how are you happy and happiness, it's such an, it's almost like an elusive kind of a thing, happiness, right? That you have it, but if almost you don't perceive that you have it, then you don't have it. It's really fascinating. It's really fascinating. But how does this show up now? You spoke about two sons How old are the sons? PJ (@milanicreative) (11:30.35) 8 and 12. Utkarsh Narang (11:31.515) 8 and 12, 8 and 12. So how do you role model this to them, PJ? Because it's it's a, and I have two boys who are 14 and 11. So it's a really difficult skill to make them understand that right now you might be craving that chocolate or wanting to play basketball instead of study. But there's this long-term game that you have to play in life and there's no other way around it. I mean, at least I've not found a way around the long-term game. So to me, it is when you put yourself one day at a time. And then someday you become an expert at whatever you want to be. So how do you role model that to your kids? PJ (@milanicreative) (12:06.382) I think there's two different approaches to this. or rather two different, it's a little bit of a paradox because especially when they're young, you want them to be present in being young. Like you don't want them to always build this habit of seeing the future as the main goal. Like if I say, hey, this is for your future and I kept. telling them this is for your future, this is for your future, it sucks now, it will make sense when you're older, then that's going to just carve these paths in their neural network to be thinking always future is the goal. And it's really a habit that you can't, you'll have a hard time breaking out of. So there is this paradox in that you want them to live in the now, appreciate the now, and build that habit of just being present. At the same time, instilling in them the drive to want to be better and enjoy the process of getting better. So the real challenge is in having them live presently in the growth. That's an incredibly difficult thing to do. As far as modeling it, I think part of the reason why I make visuals, or rather I landed on making visuals, is initially I started off writing and I found myself sequestering in my office very frequently and not being able to be with the kids. So if I'm trying to write, and you know, I had a conversation with my wife before I started any of this. You know, I was like, hey, Utkarsh Narang (13:50.234) Mm-hmm. Utkarsh Narang (14:02.17) Mm. PJ (@milanicreative) (14:03.992) What do you think about me doing this thing? me, because I knew, I mean, again, being older, I knew it would take up a lot of my time. And it wouldn't be fair to just put the burden of taking care of the kids and dinners. I mean, there's a lot of practical things that just have to continue to move forward. and it's hard to do alone. So I wanted to make sure that my wife was on board and she was and she was very supportive. But as I was sequestering in the room and writing, I would spend hours and I and I had to focus and I found myself getting more and more irritated anytime I got interrupted, which I didn't want. Like I don't like being irritated at my children or my wife because they're they need something or you know, my wife has to do something so I have to. stop what I'm doing, I'm in the middle of a flow, go get milk, come back, I've lost the flow, it's gone, it's gone forever, it's gone for the rest of the day. And so I found myself in this pattern that I just was not really enjoying because while I do enjoy writing, I didn't enjoy what it was potentially doing, which was keeping me from being able to be present with my children as they get older. at probably one of their most critical times in their lives, which is the only time they want to spend time with me while they're young. So the thing I liked about visuals is I made this pivot is that I could stop, like a lot of the cognitive lift can be separated from the execution because I can do the creative process of coming up with the idea. Utkarsh Narang (15:36.26) Yeah. Yeah. PJ (@milanicreative) (15:58.606) And there is a little bit of an iterative process. It is a cyclical thing, but the heaviest lift I can do in the mornings or as I'm going throughout the day and noting these ideas down. And you can do that with writing to some degree too, but there's a lot more structuring involved. I can do that, but while I'm at home in the evenings, I can actually draw with my children. They can ask for milk. I can get the milk. I can give it to them and just hop back into it. and I can be next to them. And that was one of the things that my wife mentioned is like, know, hey, the kids don't know you're working. Like they can't, they don't understand that you're working. They just think you're in the room. Like, and I was like, mm, that is true. So now I can sit with them as they're watching TV. And in fact, what's funny is, I have those like, I need to find this picture. My youngest son, Utkarsh Narang (16:27.482) Mm. PJ (@milanicreative) (16:57.134) And what's really cool is they start getting interested in this stuff themselves and they read what I'm creating. So they're like, what does that mean? You know, and then I get to explain it to them and create a context for a teaching moment. But my youngest son, I had made a visual about grief. You know my father passed away earlier. Well, it was last year. It'll almost be a year in April. Utkarsh Narang (17:07.799) Mmm. PJ (@milanicreative) (17:23.962) And I've created a few visuals around grief to just help me myself process some of it, to wrap my head around it. And my son drew the same visual next to me. And I have more than one iPad, so he drew on the iPad with me his version of the same visual. And it's got the same color palette and everything. it's got these little funky things here and there, but. It is so cute, you know, and it just, again, reaffirmed that this was the right medium for me to explore ideas because one, it allows me to spend time with the kids. I get to model that for them because I'm actually physically there. They're able to see me work hard towards something, but also put it down when... they need something. Like earlier today, my older son was like, hey, can we go to the park to, and he wants to shoot the soccer ball at these giant goals that we have in the park around the corner. And a part of me was like, I'd love to get some work done. But then I was like, well, what am I doing it all for? So we got in the car, we spent a few hours kicking the ball back and forth. And you know, that's, guess what I'm trying to say is, Utkarsh Narang (18:22.778) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (18:39.406) Hmm. Yeah. PJ (@milanicreative) (18:51.31) Part of the modeling is not so much of modeling the grit and modeling that self-confidence. Part of it is also that I want them to know that I will, and this is a hard lesson to learn. I just serendipitously learned that lesson. Like I think if my mom was intentionally trying to teach me that, it probably would not have hit. So it was just the circumstances in that situation. Sure, I wanna be intentional in trying to carve that same lesson for my children, but I don't think it would take the same shape and I would only be frustrated if I did that. Part of what my mom taught me though was also, happened because she was present with me. She was spending time with me. And I think that's kind of how I model that lesson, I suppose, is just hoping that by being present that there are enough. moments that I can teach the kids these smaller lessons that ultimately build to this scaffold, this bigger idea of, you can do this. Like, I believe you can do this. I know you can do this. And here's why I believe you can do this. And so I think all those different subskills hopefully will build up to this bigger self-belief. Utkarsh Narang (20:06.894) Hmm. Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (20:13.242) come together. Yeah, that's so powerful. And there's so many micro lessons that we can pick out there that apply for everyone who's starting off on something who is a parent, not a parent in a relationship. Because again, what you're saying is that you got to be mindfully present to giving them the milk, but also going and hitting the soccer ball, but also coming back and doing your work. And there are so many listeners who might be feeling like, you're the lucky one. You got there. You did this. So I want to break those stereotypes as well, because, because you said, right, 42 is when you started doing this. That's when a high percentage, I'm not trying to overgeneralize, but a high percentage of people have given up on their dreams and they feel like 42 is too late. And then, so to set context, Pejman, you're now how old? If I may ask. PJ (@milanicreative) (21:06.382) 44, actually, I'm sorry, I was 41. I was 41, it was 2022. I always kind of just like do the math like 1980, yeah. So I was 41 when I started like close to 42 and now I'm 44, yeah. Utkarsh Narang (21:09.708) Mmm. Mmm. Yeah, yeah. Right. So 44. So, and I'm turning 40 this year. So, so here are two men in their forties, trying to, trying to inspire those who are in their thirties and in forties and maybe in twenties that there's no actual, there's never a right time to do something. There's always time to do the things that you want to do because that's going to bring you joy. PJ (@milanicreative) (21:28.398) That's right. Utkarsh Narang (21:43.929) And again, like bringing back that concept of happiness that it's not going to be something that you will achieve at the end of the journey. You got to feel that while you're moving towards that mountain, whatever that mountain looks like. And then you use the word somewhere, which I'd love to have you kind of double click for me, PJ. The state of flow, whatever that creative process is, the state of flow. Like, how do you feel in that state of flow? How do you achieve it more? seamlessly now what resist like yeah if anyone's trying to say that I want to be in a state of flow whether I'm sending emails whether I'm coaching someone whether I'm designing a visual or writing something on LinkedIn how does one get into that state of flow PJ (@milanicreative) (22:25.976) I think that's a great question. think part of the flow state is in doing the thing that challenges you, but not so much that it is paralyzing. It's critical that you find this medium point where, you if you can think of like Buddhism, if you're familiar with Buddhism, you know, there's something called the middle way. And imagine, you know, taking a rope again, we're using visuals here. Imagine a rope and we take the rope and we make it super taut. If we make it too taut, it'll snap. If it's not taut enough, it will have too much slack and it won't support anything. And you just want to kind of hold it at a consistent state that's tense enough, but not super tense that it snaps. And I think that's where whenever you're... Utkarsh Narang (23:06.682) Hmm. PJ (@milanicreative) (23:24.472) trying to challenge yourself in whatever it is that you're pursuing, could be writing, could be visuals, it could be even engaging in dialogue in a podcast, is finding, in a dialogue in a podcast, you're wanting to challenge yourself to be able to approach topics that get you to think, and get you to say things that will surprise yourself even. If you've ever had a really great conversation and all of a sudden you're like, my gosh, it's been three hours. How did the time fly? You were just in a flow state. And the reason you were in a flow state is because you were so involved in that conversation. And I think that's probably a great analog to being in that state in a creative mode is you're trying to find the things that you're pursuing to be just challenging enough that you're Utkarsh Narang (24:00.472) Yeah. PJ (@milanicreative) (24:24.334) present completely. And that's why I think I am so, I just am so bullish in encouraging people to have some kind of creative practice, to live a more creative life. And that's kind of like my go-to purpose mission if I was to have a statement is I want to encourage people to live a more creative life, to make the world a more creative place. Utkarsh Narang (24:25.37) Hmm. PJ (@milanicreative) (24:53.91) It's because of so all the additional ambient impacts of having a creative practice. And when you are in that creative flow, you feel completely present in that moment. That's just, that's just probably it's the nectar to the day, if you will. Utkarsh Narang (25:00.1) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (25:14.756) Yeah, beautiful. I love that. And I love this mission statement of helping people have some kind of creative practice. And in my previous life, I call it, I used to be a photographer and a videographer. And so I had a mentor who was his name was Henry Grossman and passed away, I think, a couple of years ago. But he used to tell me that and he'd taken pictures of Nelson Mandela, of Roosevelt, of PJ (@milanicreative) (25:27.342) Mmm. Utkarsh Narang (25:40.613) Kennedy and so many, right? And he was like the professional photographer for the Beatles. So he would always tell me, that Utkarsh, it's a big responsibility to do something creative because you get to see something from your eye and you allow that to go into someone else and how you can inspire through that moment. And he once, I remember he was in New York, so would meet him often and we were having this conversation. asked, Utkarsh, how do you define yourself? What do do? And I was just doing photography at that time. I said, PJ (@milanicreative) (25:58.584) Mm-hmm. Utkarsh Narang (26:10.616) Henry, I'm a time freezer. And he loved that conversation and as yeah, still gives me goosebumps. And this idea of flow, think PJ what I'm also seeing people not getting into that state because there's too much distraction around us. And the noise is very strong, something as small as, you were having this conversation last week with a group that your phone, your buzzers, your smartwatches, and I'm wearing one as well. So. PJ (@milanicreative) (26:27.022) Mm-hmm. Utkarsh Narang (26:40.004) look at the irony here. But if that keeps beeping, then you'll never stay in that state of flow. You'll never... So your watch and your phone and your time will keep asking you for milk, keep asking you for what's next. So that's... How do you kind of... What's your process to avoid? Because you said you're creating on the iPad. So there's an element of distraction there. But how do you maintain that state of flow then? PJ (@milanicreative) (26:51.339) That's right. PJ (@milanicreative) (27:06.238) And you pretty much have half the answer by noting the iPad because in actuality, the creative part of the day, the creative lifting is on paper with a pen. And that is it, like pen and paper. And I use a pen because I don't want to erase anything. I don't want to be worrying about any particular perfection or trying to get anything to look good, I am just trying to iterate, I am trying to work on interpreting something that is going on in terms of what I'm trying to convey. It could be a visual, it could be an analogy that I haven't really figured out exactly what it's going to manifest itself in. It could just be, you know, just a Utkarsh Narang (27:37.658) Hmm. PJ (@milanicreative) (28:04.716) distinction that I'm trying to really understand, like what is the difference between accepting something and surrendering to it? Very subtle difference. How would I approach it? And I'll just start writing and sketching and creating circles around those words, creating arrows, using things that, and strategies that might help me get greater clarity towards something that might be an insight. And so, That all happens with a pen and paper. I don't ideate on the iPad. The iPad is more of a finishing tool. I will create chicken scratches on all kinds of papers everywhere. And one of the things I try to encourage students who I've had go through the course I teach is I try to encourage them to use a... whatever they journal in and whatever they might use as a sketch pad, try to combine the two. The most ideal approach that I've found has helped, at least in the work that I do, is combining both writing and visualizing all in the same thing. One, that kind of just eliminates another thing that you have to have next to you. You're like, my gosh, I don't have my sketch pad, or my gosh, I don't have my journal. Utkarsh Narang (29:21.178) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (29:27.321) Hmm. Yeah. PJ (@milanicreative) (29:32.718) put it all in the same place. And that just eliminates some of the friction. And anytime you can remove some friction, distraction, anything that you can remove from the process to simplify it is going to be a win. So that is how I handle distractions. A lot of times I won't have the iPad also in the evenings. So I kind of bookend my day with some creative flow. Utkarsh Narang (29:44.186) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (30:02.138) Mm. PJ (@milanicreative) (30:02.252) So in the mornings, I try to, if I have any space or time in the day, I will, that's usually when I come up with my better ideas and also my iterative ideas are usually in the mornings. And in the evenings, I'll have a, my bed is just a mess of just like books, like right next to it. And I have them all open. Like I'm reading like 20 books at the same time. You I don't know about you, but that's usually how I approach it. And I'm like, what do I feel like reading today? And I'll pick one and I'll pick up from there. And as I'm reading something, thought pops up, I'll start writing. As I'm writing, a visual might pop up or vice versa. I'll write on the books. So I'll use the books themselves as notebooks. I like reading on physical books because again, eliminates the device. I also just physically like writing a lot in the books. I remember back in the day when I would just not wanna, you know, Utkarsh Narang (30:47.214) Hmm. PJ (@milanicreative) (30:59.66) mess with the books, it's like some kind of holy thing that now I'm just writing all over it. I see my son, he doesn't wanna even put a little doggie ear on his books because he doesn't wanna mess it up. And I'm just like, give it time son, it'll be all right. But yeah, that's how I would approach it. Utkarsh Narang (31:17.242) Mmm. Wow. That's fascinating. I'm also one of those who wants to keep the book pristine. I don't know why. I'm not going to gift it to anyone. I'm not going to pass it on, but that's how the brain works, I guess. Great. So we've spent about 30 minutes. If listeners are still with us, we've spoken about thank you from the eight year old to the 44 year old. We've spoken about happiness and we've spoken about the state of flow. Now there are two parts that we'll get this conversation into. One is just around the creative process, which we are kind of scratching the surface off. And then there's another part, which I made a note of. I take copious notes when I'm talking to someone because I don't want to leave anything untouched, so to say. So you're saying you bookend the two day, the day into two parts, some creative process in the morning, some at the end. And then what I'm understanding is that you're reading the book to get inspiration. And as soon as the inspiration comes, which is the lightning bolt that we spoke about, as soon as the inspiration comes, you get into sketching, drawing, writing, whatever that might look like. What else is the creative process of PJ that if anyone who's listening wanting to get into any level of creative work, you would recommend to them? PJ (@milanicreative) (32:32.526) Hmm. I mean, it may seem almost trite to suggest this, but it's really important that you have some kind of reflective practice. Now, how that shapes into being, it could be in a journaling, writing practice. It could also be just, you know, one thing I've been doing a lot more recently is I've been creating voice notes. Utkarsh Narang (32:37.882) You PJ (@milanicreative) (33:05.204) as I walk and just practicing speaking. And it's been really great because I can talk about a lot of things a lot faster than I can write them. And I want to give my hand also just a little bit of a break because, you know, it's a practical issue where, you know, if you draw a lot, your hands will eventually get tired and you need to take breaks. So if I'm writing all the all day and I'm drawing all day, it can start to get a little bit fatigued. So taking a little break and walking around and speaking can help build up different way of reflecting than the slower method that is writing. The reflective part is really important because you need to first off just be a little bit more aware of what you think. Another... really helpful thing that is part closer to a little sub niche in the internet, which is called PKM or personal knowledge management. I'm not sure if you're too familiar with this, this little sub niche of the internet, it's essentially just, you know, if you're a knowledge worker, meaning, you know, you work in thinking and that is part of your bread and butter, you need to be able to somehow organize. you're thinking in some kind of systematic way that won't drive you crazy and making sense a little bit of all the chaos of all the ideas that you have going on in your head. And so I find that note taking is tremendously important and having some kind of capture system and the capture system needs to be fast, it needs to be mobile, it needs to be synced in some way. And you need to have, and this is kind of a little bit underrated, but it needs to give you some level of delight when you're in your capture system. And the reason it's important that it's delightful is because if you don't feel delight, then we avoid things that we don't like to do. so again, just eliminating as much friction as possible. And sometimes that means just smaller things like... PJ (@milanicreative) (35:28.056) what it looks like or how easy it is to open up, how fast it is to open up, those kinds of things. That really makes a difference. So I find that having some kind of reflective process, having some kind of note taking process, having a capture system, all those things contribute to building this garden that you can hopefully cultivate and tend to. over time and you allow these roots to kind of permeate under the surface and those roots start to make connections and those connections start to help you come up with these interesting insights that are oftentimes remixing truths that we all know, but presenting it in an interesting way. And so I find that that is those kinds of parts contribute to at least my creative process. Utkarsh Narang (36:26.714) Beautiful. I think it's your presence that's making me also think in visuals because as you were saying this, what you were saying, part of me was imagining an iPhone kept horizontally. And then there is these things that you're capturing. They're like seeds you're sowing on that iPhone or whatever that device is. And the roots go down, which meets somewhere through the meta tags of the system. And then the creativity of the tree pops up. So I love how... PJ (@milanicreative) (36:52.548) All right, start blooming, that's right. Utkarsh Narang (36:53.818) See, this is creativity in action for those who are watching. And this idea on the personal knowledge management system, I did not know the term PKM, but do you use a specific software that people can lean into what's worked for you, for example? PJ (@milanicreative) (37:09.954) Yeah, so I use two different pieces of software. It just depends on what it is I'm working on. So there's some practical sides to doing creative work. Sometimes there is some slogging that has to happen. Like if you notice just a visual, you also have to understand that you have to create a caption or you also have to create emails and other things that are more administrative. that still need to have some kind of creative process to it because you want to do them well and you wanna make sure you come up with interesting solutions to problems that happen in those kinds of spheres. So when it comes to that kind of stuff, I do all of that in Notion. But if it comes to... PJ (@milanicreative) (37:57.88) Book notes, if it comes to my own thinking, even journaling, I like to organize all those things in an app called Obsidian. it is a tool that is free, both Notion and Obsidian are free to use. Obsidian is really cool because it's open source, I believe, and it is... Utkarsh Narang (38:18.07) Mm. Mm. PJ (@milanicreative) (38:22.562) very secure, so meaning it only lives on your computer unless you create some kind of login that put it on the web and whatnot. But Notion, unfortunately, is not as secure as Obsidian because it's all cloud-based and, you know, and obviously you don't, it's, if you can't get online, you don't have access to it. Obsidian lives in your computer, so everything is connected in your computer. The reason I really like Obsidian is that it's not as pretty as Notion. Utkarsh Narang (38:23.983) Hmm. PJ (@milanicreative) (38:51.062) unfortunately, but it is so fast. It is so fast. And there's so many cool plugins that make it delightful to just navigate through your ideas and cluster ideas together and all those different things. you know, there's a little bit of a higher learning curve with Obsidian and there's some things you can't do with it that I, or you can do, but I just don't like the way it looks. And again, delight is important. So. Utkarsh Narang (39:16.633) Yeah. PJ (@milanicreative) (39:17.89) So I use a combination of both notion and obsidian depending on what it is I'm working on. Utkarsh Narang (39:24.088) Love it, love it. Yeah, I think Notion is something that I've also, I've actually created and when I that book around the second brain, I've actually created a Utkarsh second brain on Notion, which has everything, every section from my wife, my kids, my work, my podcast, everything is in there. So if any ideas come, so the app is on the phone. I plugged that into. which then shows up and the team can. So yeah. So if Notion, if you end up watching this podcast, you can probably sponsor the podcast. It'll be amazing to have you as a sponsor. Just a side note. So the creative process seems to be fitting in now. But now I'm just going to kind of pull us back a little bit because here's PJ, 35 years, maybe 38 years old. Maybe these thoughts have still not kind of emerged that, I can be a creator. I can be an influencer. can have PJ (@milanicreative) (39:54.702) That's right. Utkarsh Narang (40:17.034) falling about 400,000. If I combine Instagram and LinkedIn, that's about 400,000. And I want to point out here to everyone who's listening. Sometimes you feel that someone who's reached this kind of stature becomes, I don't want to use the wrong word, but this may be slightly arrogant or becomes, but I've interacted with and you've been listening to PJ for the last 40 odd minutes, showed up on time, responsive on LinkedIn. If you show up authentically, to anyone in the world, I think the internet has the potential of connecting you with people who we cannot even imagine. So I want to kind of thank and applaud that PJ because you were always responsive. So I truly appreciate the energy because it never felt to me that I'm talking to someone who has that stature, who should then be saying, with Kush, I'm not going to be on your podcast. You're like what? So just, yeah, I want to be expressing that gratitude. PJ (@milanicreative) (41:11.788) Yeah, I never feel that way. I'm glad that it didn't come off that way. Yeah, if I, by the way, if you ever reach out to me and I don't respond, it is because I probably either didn't see the message or I just got flooded with messages. And I don't say that to boast anything. It's just to say sometimes there's just so many messages throughout the day that it just becomes impossible to keep up with. And again, I wanna try to manage and balance. what I do online with, with yeah, just my life. Utkarsh Narang (41:43.205) Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Appreciate that. And yeah, those who are listening, we should all respect this space because the digital world is hyper connected. But I'm just going to take us back to this 35, 38 year old PJ has not maybe thought about LinkedIn or Instagram or this extension of you that can live with a digital identity and have like a business arm. someone who's maybe what I want you to speak to PJ, someone who's struggling. who's feeling like I'm 35, 38 years old, look at everyone, these young kids have made it online, they're making whatever, $100,000 million, whatever be that number that you're chasing as an individual, and they're feeling my time is gone. How should they approach this challenge? Because you've uncovered it, I'm working towards uncovering it. So yeah, what would be your advice, guidance? PJ (@milanicreative) (42:28.418) Yeah. PJ (@milanicreative) (42:38.626) Yeah, man, I completely just am sympathetic to that because it's, mean, and I should underline the point that I don't necessarily feel like I'm above that kind of thinking either. Even the thing is, first off, the number one thing is I hesitated to do anything. because I kept thinking it was too late. And then I kept dragging my feet and I kept thinking it was too late. But I couldn't eliminate the desire and that thought of I wanna do this thing. I wanna start sharing ideas. I wanted to do something creative and I needed some kind of vehicle to keep me accountable to stay in creative. So I remember I had this conversation and I'll explain why I'm. bringing this up in a second. But I remember when I first started, when I first started on Twitter actually, funny enough, which I don't really, which I'm not super active on now, which I think a lot of people can be sympathetic to if you've ever been on X recently, is, but when I first started I was only on Twitter, LinkedIn and Instagram hadn't really been logged into for, gosh, they were just catching dust. But I remember being on, a Twitter space and it was like with two other people and we're just having a conversation. They both had larger followings than I did. I think I had like, I don't know, 10. I don't know. It was like really small. But I remember having this conversation where one of them, we were talking about how if you grow a certain number of following, the number of people that were following you. Utkarsh Narang (44:15.93) Thank PJ (@milanicreative) (44:31.79) And you all of a sudden wanted to change. You wanted to pivot what you were talking about or what you were writing about or what you were just exploring in online. Cause you know, people start to know you, your brand and whatnot for a very specific thing. And if you all of a sudden shift, then you've lost all that credibility and whatnot. it's a challenge a lot of face is, know, the success they build over time ends up becoming a little bit of a prison and I remember we were talking about this and I was like, if I ever got to that place, I would change whatever I'm talking about without hesitation. And that sounds... almost, I don't know, arrogant, but I think it's because I really believed in this idea that if the reason you're doing this kind of work, and by this kind of work I mean creative work, and I also wanna underline a very small distinction, but it's an important one, that there's a difference between being an entrepreneur who creates and a creator who makes money. who to create. There's a difference, right? There's a lot of similarities between entrepreneurs and creators because they share the same space, but there is an important difference. I see myself as a creator first. There are some people who see themselves as an entrepreneur first. And that's totally okay, but it's an important distinction. So I'm speaking to anyone who has a creative spirit first and maybe wants to eventually... Utkarsh Narang (45:47.226) Yeah. PJ (@milanicreative) (46:13.326) make money as a creative so that they can continue to create. That's who I'm speaking to. Because it is a very different story if it's the other way around. At least I imagine that to be the case. So the reason, again, I think it's really important is because in that moment I was like, I realized this is actually what I believe. It's just like when you have conversations you get in a state of flow. And so I... The advice I would give to anyone who wants to do this and has been hesitating is number one, identify why. Like that's so important. And it can be a moving target. You don't necessarily have to commit to any of these ideas. You just wanna really be honest with yourself. You know, do I wanna be an entrepreneur first or do I wanna be a creator first? Do I wanna create ideas in the world and see, and again, hold myself accountable. to continue to create? Or is it that I'm trying to make some additional money and I just see this creator world as a cash cow and somehow if I can just tap into the right algorithm, I can start making tons of money, wonderful. You know, that's what I wanna do. Again, identify why. There's no right or wrong answer. It's just what is the appropriate answer for what you wanna do. If you're able to be clear on that and if your clarity, does point you more towards, and I can only speak to this authentically because this is who I am, I can't really speak to some of the desires because I haven't fully lived it as much. But if your clarity points you towards this direction of, I really want to do something creative. I really just feel like, And the creativity can take many shapes, but I just really feel like this burning desire, have a lot to give to the world and I want to share these ideas and I find a lot of fulfillment from doing that. If you can just start, if you can just start and if you can continue to believe that that is the goal, you will, honestly, there are so few people out there. PJ (@milanicreative) (48:34.936) who believe that, who want, who one, are clear on their goal, on their purpose, and I shouldn't say purpose, but clear because purpose seems like a big thing and purpose changes and, you know, it seems kind of overwhelming to decide on, but clear on what it is at least they want for now and what, and just committing to. just moving forward and just taking that first action and then this next action and the next action, you'll be surprised how far you can go. I did not go anywhere, I'll tell you right now, I did not go anywhere just continuing to sit there and wish and dream and think it was too late. And look, I'll be, one of the thoughts I remember, having really early on and I wrote a piece on this is am I too old for this? And you know when you're in your 20s you don't have the responsibilities that you have in your 40s. That's a reality. How do you manage, know, again having a household that with children and a wife and you know hopefully some time with your friends. The thing is Utkarsh Narang (49:34.67) Hmm. PJ (@milanicreative) (49:57.248) If I told you that there aren't trade-offs, that would be a lie. And I think if anyone tells you that you can do everything, they're lying to you to get your money. Because that's not the reality. I think there are always gonna be trade-offs. I find the value of having a creative practice to be so immense that, and especially if you can continue it and see its tail end. Utkarsh Narang (50:09.05) Mm. PJ (@milanicreative) (50:26.638) benefits because on the front end a lot of it you're not going to see the immediate benefits but on the tail end you start to see it and you're like wow like this is really cool but I find that benefit to be so immense that I'm okay trading off you know not watching the latest Netflix shows or you know just not always maybe going out to drink I don't drink anymore you know Utkarsh Narang (50:55.898) Mm. PJ (@milanicreative) (50:56.428) those kinds of things, I'm okay trading those things off, but there is a trade off. And I also am able to get, you know, I am lucky enough to be able to get the support of my wife. And we are lucky enough to be able to do that together. But again, it is not necessarily easy to keep at it, but if you can, it's not too late. And I remember thinking, I remember having this thought, like, again, am I too old? Should I be, and I remember, I think I shared this with you when we were first talking, is, you know, am I in a place where I should be appreciating the boat that I built to sail off into the ocean? You know, like, did I miss the boat in terms of building, building the right, you know, ship for me to set off? Should I continue to be building a ship at this age? You know? Utkarsh Narang (51:43.802) Yeah. PJ (@milanicreative) (51:58.574) I didn't do it in my 20s. I focused on building a skill set, which was teaching. I've spent the last 20 years focusing on that. I would say if you're in your late 30s, Utkarsh Narang (52:09.519) Hmm. PJ (@milanicreative) (52:15.532) If I was speaking to my late thirties, would say there are actually, you actually kind of have a competitive advantage that you probably are not aware of. And that is life experience. And that is authenticity. And that is something that you've built probably a set of skills that you're just not aware of that is. this thing in the world that you can be sharing insights into that space. So I think, you know, that word vomit, hopefully there's something there. I could continue to go on, but I'm going to probably cut it off. Hopefully that made sense. Utkarsh Narang (52:54.158) Yeah, as you were saying, I was scribbling on my notepad and I think so here's what PJ is to summarize. And that was very important that that that what he shared, it came from the heart and it it was authentic. So I think that's what will influence or hopefully inspire whoever is listening. What you're saying, PJ, is that a first understand what's your why that why has to be large enough to keep pushing you because it's not the first visual that reaches 100,000 people. It's not the second visual that reaches 100,000 people. It's not even maybe the hundredth visual that reaches 100,000 people and it goes beyond that. So can you find a deep enough why that will allow you to keep moving forward on that path where it's not about how many people it reaches, but it's about the joy that it gives you. So that's one. Second, what you said was that even whether you're 30 or 40 or 50 or 60, whatever, if there is a desire, what you shared about your desire and you cannot eliminate the desire, then it's a journey worth going on. So everyone who has that desire should embark on that journey. The third was that at a certain age, the competitive advantage that you have is that you know what authentically you need to do to the world, what you can offer to the world and the experience that you have here. And so that's the third thing. And then somewhere PJ you said, and I might be incoherent here, but somewhere you said that you spoke about that you were okay pivoting at whatever stage you were to whatever following that you had and that could you said I think arrogant. I think that's humble because that makes you comfortable of erasing whatever has been created to create something new out of it. Does that make sense? PJ (@milanicreative) (54:41.038) I mean, I'll take it. I'll take the whole humility. Yeah, no, it does make sense. And thank you for saying that. And well summarized as well, by the way. But yeah, think it was clarity of what I wanted at that point in life that I think has still stuck with me and continues to stick with me is if I was... Utkarsh Narang (54:42.458) Perfect. Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (54:52.89) you Utkarsh Narang (55:02.01) Yeah. PJ (@milanicreative) (55:11.352) feeling as if this PJ (@milanicreative) (55:16.472) this whole thing that I'm trying to do, it's a lot of work, it's a lot of time. And if I don't enjoy it, then why am I doing it? And that's not to say like we don't do things we don't enjoy. It's just to say that this particular thing, which is again, trying to manifest ideas into visual form, or even if it was to shift and it wasn't visuals, because I know there's not a lot of people who create visuals, but even if it is writing or even if it is a podcast, even if it is YouTube, even if it's just even in what you do in your day-to-day job. Like I looked at teaching in the first half of my life, I've looked at teaching as a creative practice as well. In terms of coming up with creative ways to communicate and teach an idea that's more like ninja teaching, know, and not like sneaking in teaching and having, trying to create fun experiences while still teaching important lessons. Utkarsh Narang (56:08.218) you PJ (@milanicreative) (56:17.506) But it doesn't necessarily have to be something that you might traditionally consider as creative to be creative. It's just that at that time I felt that if I'm gonna be taking this additional thing on and if I felt that that was somehow being influenced by this external force that was somehow just making me feel like I had to make a certain thing, I had to make a certain type of content, that would no longer be creative in my mind. Like if I knew, and this is a creator's dilemma, like if you know something is going to quote unquote work, like I'm gonna create this one post because I know all these people liked this idea and so I'm gonna create this thing because I know it's going to work. Utkarsh Narang (57:00.314) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (57:03.95) Hmm. Hmm. PJ (@milanicreative) (57:16.994) The fact that I know it's going to work, that certainty means that it's already been created. That means it's not a new creation. So like the creator's dilemma is you need to some degree, of course, continue to go the fringes of what is certain, but a lot of times what's safe is not as interesting. So that's why it's kind of this like. Utkarsh Narang (57:25.538) Yeah, yeah. PJ (@milanicreative) (57:46.008) really challenging thing for creatives who are trying to step into the entrepreneur space because entrepreneurs have a completely different mindset. You specialize, you get efficient, you get incredibly good at the thing, and that's the thing you do, and you do nothing else. Whereas a creator wants to always push and push and push and push. So I think that was what I was thinking about when I answered that question, which is just like, I would rather... Utkarsh Narang (57:46.01) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (58:11.065) Hmm. PJ (@milanicreative) (58:14.072) give it all up to continue to explore these ideas that I'm interested in rather than, again, just be imprisoned by them. Utkarsh Narang (58:19.93) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (58:23.854) Yeah, beautiful. It's such a revealing conversation and it's helping me also clarify certain thoughts. as we now we've spoken about everything and hopefully that 35, 40 year old who's listening right now would take action after this because this is 168 hours in a week. And at 40, you absolutely have family responsibilities and you have maybe a full time job that you take care of and then sleep and do everything else. But I think even if we do and accurate math, we'll still have 20 hours to each one of us. Now we want to use those to consume on Netflix, go through reels, or get inspired to create something. That's a choice. That's a choice. But as we now get to the closure, I'm going to, you're 44, so we spoke about that eight-year-old boy. Let's go 36 years into the future. And we get to that eight-year-old PJ who's done whatever he wanted to, been on that creative journey. PJ (@milanicreative) (59:14.926) Mmm. Utkarsh Narang (59:21.644) made the trade-offs, lived the way he wanted to and that 80 year old now comes to this 44 year old PJ and has a conversation. What advice would he have for you? PJ (@milanicreative) (59:35.022) What do you have for me? man. Hmm. PJ (@milanicreative) (59:47.116) I I mean, I kind of see my own father as I try to imagine myself at 80. And I think the biggest thing he would probably tell me is just to appreciate being young, even at 40, because this is the youngest I'll ever be, you know, ever again, you know? And I think... Utkarsh Narang (01:00:10.714) heart. PJ (@milanicreative) (01:00:15.448) You know, I would watch my dad sometimes watch the kids play and he would be a little bit stoic, you know, he wouldn't really speak, but he would be watching. And, you he'd watch whenever I would, you know, like give my youngest, my oldest son, who was a baby when he was a kid. I remember this one time he was just watching as I was, you know, changing him and doing all the stuff. It was just me, my dad and my oldest son. And he was watching me and he kind of just like, goes like this, and all of a sudden, know, he just shakes his head and just clears his head up. And I was like, what's wrong? He goes, I literally just saw myself. As I was watching you washing, you know, I was bathing my son, you know, he was like, I literally just saw myself, like, like I was looking into a window. And that has stuck with me because I, imagine myself seeing myself in the kids as they get older and hopefully if they have kids of their own. And I just hope that I can enjoy and appreciate and be present in all these moments that I'm experiencing today. And I hope that I can look at my eight-year-old self and that he won't be disappointed in me for... just neglecting all these things that I think are so critical. Because at the end of the day, yeah, you know, it's nice to see praise from, you know, people who are checking out the work that I'm creating. It's really nice, I mean, it's really meaningful when people message to say, this visual got me thinking, or this visual has been on my mind, or I put this, and I framed it on. my wall or I have it as my phone wallpaper to remind me of this and that or the other. Like that's really meaningful. PJ (@milanicreative) (01:02:25.408) On top of that though, think if I, my, my goal, guess, goal is maybe not the right word, but my state of consciousness as I try to go through each day is to enjoy the process as I'm making these things and to just try not to live in this, if this happens, then I'll feel this or once I get to this place, then I will do this. And I am constantly trying to jar myself out of that kind of thinking. And that is kind of, again, an example of why earlier, know, again, my son was like, hey, can we go play soccer or can we go to the park? You know, I could have in that moment would have been like, let's go tomorrow. Cause I got this and this and that to do for this and whatever I got to take care of. And there's always a laundry list of things to do. But instead of that, I was like, no, because that would then be me just somehow trying to get myself to live in some future self. so yeah, I think that would be the advice my older self would tell me is just be present, be, enjoy your... being young again. Again, it may seem crazy to be like, oh, you're 44, you're young. It's like, not really, but to an 80 year old, I am young. And, and I think that context is important. Yeah. Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (01:04:03.162) Absolutely. Utkarsh Narang (01:04:11.706) Love it. Loved every part of this conversation, Peeja. Thank you for and this last bit that you're sharing. So my dad is how old is he? He turned 70 this year and I turned 40 and my younger one is 10. And so there's a 30 year gap between the generations. And I often feel it's such a It's such a joy and a pleasure to just see kids grow up, just have parents around you, just have these conversations that you and I just shared this one hour with each other. And there's so much in these moments that why look out for that future? Why look out for this? But thank you for being here. I hope the listeners who heard this or watched this on YouTube enjoyed it. And if... If they can help us feed the algorithm, then they can like and comment and share all that thing that I should have said earlier also, but I sometimes avoid and my team hates me for this. But yeah, subscribe to the channel and thank you, PJ, again for the conversation. Truly appreciate the time that you spent with us. PJ (@milanicreative) (01:05:16.75) Well, thank you for having me. It's been a lot of fun and yeah, I really loved how deeply engaged you've been in the conversation as well, which is again, not a given always. So I really appreciate that. Utkarsh Narang (01:05:32.666) This is PJ and Utkarsh signing off. Thank you. Beautiful. Thank you so much. That was such a, such a heartfelt conversation. And this last sharing that you did, actually, like I wanted to say this, and then I stopped myself. It, yeah, I just got some fond memories to imagine your dad feeling, feeling that I just saw myself in you doing that. It's so powerful. So beautiful. I loved it. I have three more sentences that I'd love to. for you to say and what I'll do is I'll put myself off camera for these so that only you get recorded and I'll be new. One is that if you were to in one sentence based on our conversations tell people why should someone watch this? So in one sentence all you have to say looking at the camera is if you're someone blah blah blah you should watch this because that's it. PJ (@milanicreative) (01:06:32.11) Hmm, if you were something. PJ (@milanicreative) (01:06:47.31) Okay, I think we'll give it a shot. Here we go. Okay. Utkarsh Narang (01:06:51.396) Go ahead. PJ (@milanicreative) (01:06:54.094) If you're an aspiring creator and you want to, sorry, let me try again. All right. If you're an aspiring creator and you think it's too late, then you need to check this out. Utkarsh Narang (01:07:07.674) Perfect, thank you. And then in one sentence, who is PJ? PJ (@milanicreative) (01:07:12.238) Who is PJ? Okay. PJ (@milanicreative) (01:07:20.942) Do you want me to go with like, hi, I'm PJ and I do this or? Utkarsh Narang (01:07:24.878) Yes, that's perfect. PJ (@milanicreative) (01:07:28.44) Hi, I'm PJ, AKA, Milani Creative, and I am a high school teacher who also makes visual metaphors. Utkarsh Narang (01:07:36.858) Perfect. And then to help the podcast, PJ, if you could share like a one minute testimonial of the experience, you spoke about it towards the end of it. But if you were to just tell our future guests why they should be on the podcast, that'd be super helpful. PJ (@milanicreative) (01:07:51.298) Yeah, no problem. Actually, could I try that last one again? I totally forgot to say something. Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (01:07:55.067) Absolutely. Absolutely. I'll go off video so you can answer both the questions. I'll stay on mute and off video. PJ (@milanicreative) (01:08:04.376) Hi, I'm PJ Milani, AKA Milani Creative, and I'm a high school teacher who also makes visual metaphors to simplify complexity. PJ (@milanicreative) (01:08:14.766) And okay, so a sentence, a single sentence or just. Utkarsh Narang (01:08:19.95) Just whatever comes to your mind and heart. It's like a testimonial to the experience of the podcast. PJ (@milanicreative) (01:08:22.39) Okay, great. PJ (@milanicreative) (01:08:30.296) So Utkarsh, did I say that right first off? Is it Utkarsh? Okay, great. Utkarsh, okay. So Utkarsh has been a wonderful guest, I'm sorry. Okay, here we go. Utkarsh has been a wonderful host. He has been nothing but professional. He is fully present. He is not someone who just asks these random questions that are Utkarsh Narang (01:08:35.082) Yes you did absolutely. Uttkar. Utkarsh Narang (01:08:45.914) Go. PJ (@milanicreative) (01:09:01.9) He feels like he's trying to get through the questions. He listens, he summarizes, he's able to stay engaged, he keeps you engaged, and he's just delightful to have a conversation with. Utkarsh Narang (01:09:15.514) Perfect. Awesome. This is super helpful. Great. Look forward to seeing how our paths continue to engage, interact, find synergies in life, but have a beautiful evening with your kids and family. They're the most precious. I also feel the same way to go and throw some basketball into the hoop with them brings a lot of joy. But thank you again for this, PJ. I truly appreciate it. Team will be in touch. We will edit this, put this into shorts, share everything with you. Tag you every time we post anything and feel free to use it in whatever ways you want to. Have a great evening. Talk to you soon. Take care. Bye. PJ (@milanicreative) (01:09:50.638) Awesome, man, thank you so much. Bye bye.