Utkarsh Narang (00:01.192) Hey Mimi, welcome to the conversation. I'm really stoked about having this conversation with you and thank you for saying yes. And you know, even before I allow you to speak, as I was reflecting upon our conversation, I was thinking what could we speak about? And then this word empathy was coming again and again to me. I don't know why, but welcome, welcome to the podcast. Mimi Nicklin, Empathy Advocate (00:20.878) you're so welcome. And yes, I do feel that probably, I don't know, maybe my name is like almost boringly synonymous with the word empathy. But I'm really pleased that that came to mind and really, really happy to be here. So thank you for inviting me. Utkarsh Narang (00:35.656) Absolutely. Looking forward to the conversation. The first question, Mimi, that we start the podcast with is if that eight-year-old little girl, Mimi, growing up, were to look at you right now, what kind of a conversation do you think would emerge? Mimi Nicklin, Empathy Advocate (00:51.639) Do you know what, I have a very poor memory. So I can't really remember being eight years old. But I think if the conversation was from me to her, I would definitely speak to her about patience. Because I think in my 20s and probably early 30s, I was, I don't know, chasing, climbing, like we all do, right? Whether that's success or progress or the next job or a promotion or whatever it was. And one of my biggest learnings kind of a few years after that is Utkarsh Narang (01:06.356) Hmm. Mimi Nicklin, Empathy Advocate (01:22.528) is just how important patience is. And I really believe at Utkarsh that what's meant for you will come for you if you put in the hard work. which means, So often I talk to people about two kind of superpowers that we have. One is that patience, and the other is tenacity. Just keep going. Just keep going. Be consistent. And you'll get exactly where you're meant to be. And today, I feel like I absolutely am where I'm meant to be. So that's what I would say to her if I could. Utkarsh Narang (01:49.332) Yeah. That's so powerful. But we've launched ourselves into the deep end of the pool. But you know, this idea about patience, know, it sounds really amazing. It sounds apt. And one who's maybe getting into their 40s and 50s can speak about patience. But if, a 20 year old is listening to this right now, they're like, I'm not going to listen to Utkarsh and Mimi because they're going to talk about things that I don't think are right for my world. they don't... Like how does one really understand where where patience comes from? Mimi Nicklin, Empathy Advocate (02:21.026) look, I think whatever age you are, I treat it, no, I don't, I teach it to my seven year old all the time, you know? So I don't think that a skill set like patience has an age level or, you know, like a bracket for that. The reality is that you can't have everything you want now, you know, whether you're seven or 17 or 27 or 37, right? Or, you in the future, I guess, into my forties, fifties, wherever, right? You can't have everything right now. So I think, you know, my father always Utkarsh Narang (02:26.676) Hmm. Mimi Nicklin, Empathy Advocate (02:50.912) taught me that today might be difficult, but great things will come. And you have to be patient. You actually have no choice at cost, but to master that skill set, because you're never going to get everything you want now. I think whatever age you are listening to this, working out your own understanding of what patience means and just putting in the work in order to make that a reality for you is a really critical skill set. It will make you resilient. Because if you don't have patience, I'll tell you what you will have, and that's disappointment. And disappointment over time will break your resilience. It will exhaust you. So if you're a hustler, I've always been a hustler. I mean, I've never had a quiet day in my career since I was 21 years old. And I think, you know, you learn that very quickly. In lieu of patience will be disappointment. So be patient and it's going to make it much easier. Utkarsh Narang (03:41.202) That's such a powerful statement. So if you're not patient, then you'll end up with disappointment and that'll break your resilience. I love that framework. But again, coming back to this idea of tenacity and resilience, and I'm a big believer in hustling for your dreams, but doing it for yourself and for the right reasons. But where does then luck come in? how do you feel? What's the place for luck in that case then? Mimi Nicklin, Empathy Advocate (03:50.636) Mm-hmm. Mimi Nicklin, Empathy Advocate (03:56.782) Mm. Mimi Nicklin, Empathy Advocate (04:01.517) Mm. Mimi Nicklin, Empathy Advocate (04:08.43) You know what, it's funny you asked me this today because yesterday one of my connections on LinkedIn put a picture up of his grandmother, quite an elderly lady, and he was talking about her three learnings from life and one of them was about luck. And it was about, know, life has many chapters but luck is a consistent one and you are either lucky or unlucky, I guess. So literally yesterday I was considering this. I'm not sure that I believe in luck. I think you create Utkarsh Narang (04:11.284) Hmm Utkarsh Narang (04:31.156) Hmm. Mimi Nicklin, Empathy Advocate (04:38.336) your own luck. I'm not sure it's just this kind of magical thing that does or doesn't appear. And again, similar with patience, I think if you rely on luck, you're also going to find yourself disappointed because you're constantly going to fall into that kind of victim mindset that says, why did they get it and I didn't? Why was that person more lucky than me? So I think at Utkarsh, I have to be honest, I'm not 100 % made up on my mind, but Utkarsh Narang (04:57.716) Mmm. Hey, puff. Mimi Nicklin, Empathy Advocate (05:08.4) I'm pretty sure now that where I sit with this is that you create your own luck and that when you work hard and when you're consistent with the work you're doing, you end up in situations where you think, wow, aren't I lucky? But actually, you work together. So that's where I'm sitting with it right now. Utkarsh Narang (05:21.586) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's a paradoxical relationship. And, know, as you're speaking about this person who's post you saw, I'm thinking of my grandma. And as I'm thinking about her, she would often tell this story to me where she would say that there's a man who's drowning in the ocean. And this has, think, been been put into different parables and different spiritual realms and religions. But she would say that there's a man who's who's drowning in the ocean. And he's like, I'm an ardent follower. I believe in the gods above. And so I'm going to wait for God to show up and save me. And I'm not going to do anything else. I'm going to be here. But I know God will save me. And then a boat comes and then the man on the boat says, why don't you come in and I'll help you? And he's like, no, I'll wait for God. I'll wait for God. And then he waits for one boat and the second and the third and the fifth. And then he dies and he goes up and he asks. God, why did you not come? You were sending these boats were coming there. I'm not going to go on the boat because I was waiting for you. And God, God responded that I was the one who was sending those boats. I was the one on that boat. And why aren't you taking the opportunities? Mimi Nicklin, Empathy Advocate (06:29.454) wow How fascinating. I mean, really the moral is about taking opportunities when you see them, Utkarsh Narang (06:35.464) Yeah, yeah. So that makes me feel. Utkarsh Narang (06:40.646) Absolutely, absolutely. And that's what you're saying, right? That you can build your own luck if you put in the right effort and the right practice in that direction. Mimi Nicklin, Empathy Advocate (06:49.582) Yeah, and I think what that sort of story that your grandmother was telling is also about sort of open mindedness, right? Open mindedness and being flexible, you know, because in that story, the guy is looking for what he thinks it's going to look like, right? My success, my journey, my destiny looks like this. And I think, you know, for me, if I was stuck on only one way of this empathy journey, of this work looking, I mean, it doesn't look, that again, it's just not how it works. Utkarsh Narang (06:55.08) Yeah, beautiful. Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (07:03.06) Correct. Correct. Mimi Nicklin, Empathy Advocate (07:19.536) You know, things change, you have to be flexible, you have to be adaptable. I know they all sound like such stereotypes, but they're stereotypes for a reason, because life is never a straight line, know? Life is never that kind of fixed straight line that you think it might be. So I love that story. Utkarsh Narang (07:19.666) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (07:29.108) Correct. Utkarsh Narang (07:35.152) Wow, we're seven minutes into the conversation and we've had so many powerful insights. There's something that I always recommend to listeners and I'm someone who listens to podcasts. I used to listen to podcasts in the gym. And then I started to realize that I would listen to something for 60 minutes and then I would not have any notes. I would not have any learnings that were like concrete for me. And so I recommend that one should have like a notebook or something where you can scribble some notes. think it'll be really valuable. But as you were kind of speaking about that eight year old Mimi and you spoke about Mimi Nicklin, Empathy Advocate (07:46.754) Mmm. Utkarsh Narang (08:04.208) memory not serving you well and you're not in a way you don't have those recollections but is there like a story or is there a moment in those growing up years which you feel like you were sharing about your dad that you still feel like that resonates and still stays with you through the journey. Mimi Nicklin, Empathy Advocate (08:22.862) Look, I think obviously I have many memories of my childhood and growing up and that type of thing. I think whether they have a direct impact on the work I do today... you know, I don't know, but I have many lessons, particularly from my father, and particularly in business, you know, that I carry with me. And I think that those roots are something that are really important. I find at Utkarsh that people are always asking, they're always hoping that I have some type of massive, dramatic, traumatic story from my past, right? That just seems to be what the media wants you to have today. But for me, it was more about a series of, I guess, small life lessons and moments in my family that I learned. Utkarsh Narang (08:37.652) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (08:52.787) You Utkarsh Narang (08:56.712) Yeah. Yeah. Mimi Nicklin, Empathy Advocate (09:04.158) Over time and I think you know, as I said, the first one really would have been around telling my younger self to be to be patient But the other one I think was you know, my my dad had a phrase which I won't say on a podcast because it it doesn't sound very polite but Fundamentally what he said is don't let other people ever let you let you down, you know You have your own journey. You have to make your own decisions. And if you rely on other people for your happiness You'll never really get there. So happiness comes from within happiness is created by you and I think because of that Utkarsh Narang (09:20.98) you Yeah. Mimi Nicklin, Empathy Advocate (09:33.984) Because of that, one of the things that I do today a lot is make sure that I live in the present. Yesterday, I spoke to an agent in the USA, and they were asking me, will you move to the US for this? And I said, well, let's just agree to open-mindedness, because I can't plan what might happen in 12 or 18 or 24 months. I have to live today. There's no point living in yesterday or tomorrow, because they're not here now. Utkarsh Narang (09:51.444) Mm. Mimi Nicklin, Empathy Advocate (10:02.43) And I think that's definitely come from my childhood as well, which is around just live for today, focus on now, take the steps you can take today. Don't worry about where they're gonna take you because all you can do is make the right decision now, the right decision for the right reasons. And I think that brings me a lot of peace is that advice just to take the steps you can take now that feel right now. If they end up being wrong, well then you can deal with that then. Utkarsh Narang (10:29.64) Yeah, yeah, you own your own own that decision. I think this again, again, this this seems like wisdom for the ages. This seems like why the hell should we listen to this? But this is actually the truth. And then what you're saying is absolutely right, because to be putting your happiness onto someone else's hands or based on the outcome or the expectation of something happening is going to, again, leave you disappointed. And I think we're talking about six months and 10 months and 12 months. I think whatever I feel is that what if tomorrow never comes and I know again sounds very why are we having that kind of a grave conversation but that really is the truth. As we as we now progress further I'll come to empathy maybe in a few minutes but how are those early hustle years like what was happening during those those early years that you think were we're setting the foundation that someday this work will fall upon you. Mimi Nicklin, Empathy Advocate (11:27.534) I'm not sure it was the early years hustle per se, but I definitely think it was the relationship. So think there's two parts of that. I think that kind of early years working really hard. Utkarsh Narang (11:31.966) Mm-hmm. Mimi Nicklin, Empathy Advocate (11:39.252) shows you the path, lays the path for you in terms of trust, terms of resilience, in terms of relationships. I think today, terms like burnout, they're very important. They are very important. I'm not for one minute saying that we shouldn't recognise our own health. We should. I've spent the whole day until now investing in myself and my health. So I believe in that greatly. But at the same time, I think people should be very aware of the difference between burnout, like real burnout, and just being really tired. Because hard work does create tiredness, right? You do get exhausted. But I think in my early years, I invested that hard work and what was sometimes exhaustion, long hours, weekends, nights, all those things, into creating a really strong foundation. And that was in my relationships. That was the relationships around me that then stand the test of time. If you now speak to someone who was one of my bosses back then or led me back then, still today, they'll tell you, you can rely on Mimi. She's responsible. she's a great team member, all of those things that you want people to say. I think those early years were about building credibility, building resilience, proving that you can commit to things in a way that's really beneficial for you and for others. So yeah, I think that's probably what that taught me. And again, that leads to the relationships and those relationships down the test of time. And today, I still have many of them. I carry them very much with me. Utkarsh Narang (12:44.52) Mm. Mm. Utkarsh Narang (13:05.342) Hmm, powerful. In terms of relationships, what do you think really works well? What do you think if someone who's in their late 20s, early 20s, maybe early 30s, they're building those relationships, but they're not looking at the long term game. They're again, focused on the short term. What would your recommendation be? What would your advice be to be investing in the right relationships? Mimi Nicklin, Empathy Advocate (13:29.984) Look, I think it's really important and today, so now, I mean, I had a corporate career. I was in the corporate world for about 16 years. Now I have a very entrepreneurial life. My entire work is based on relationships with others and connections with others. And all the time, I'm surprised with the relationships that come back. So last week I was in London and I had a phenomenal opportunity. You know, I'm flown there in beautiful comfort. I get to stand on stage and live my dream and present to 700 people. Utkarsh Narang (13:55.892) you Mimi Nicklin, Empathy Advocate (13:59.872) and stay in lovely hotels and all the things that I dreamt of. That client knew me when I was probably 24. So, you know, that's what I'm talking and she came back out of nowhere and said, hey Mimi, we haven't spoken for a very long time, you over 10 years, but I've been following quietly. I didn't even know she was there. You know, I never knew she was sort of following my LinkedIn or anything like that. I've been watching you for years and now I'm in exposition. Utkarsh Narang (14:08.52) Wow. Utkarsh Narang (14:20.532) Mmm. Mimi Nicklin, Empathy Advocate (14:29.738) and I would like you to come and do this with my company. Utkarsh Narang (14:32.116) Mmm. Mimi Nicklin, Empathy Advocate (14:32.78) So, you know, a relationship is never wasted unless it's a bad one, right? Or a detrimental one. Of course, we need to remove those from our lives. But what I would say to anyone that's at beginning of their career or just moving through their careers is never underestimate. You have no idea where that person will be in five years, 10 years, 15 years. That's not the only reason we're building relationships. Relationships create health. Relationships build our immune systems. Relationships ward off depression, anxiety and loneliness, things that literally kill you. So having good relationships is good for your health, mental and physical. But beyond that, it is good for your career because as I said, you never know where that person's going and where you're gonna meet them next and who they might know, right? Who they might be able to introduce you to that might help you in your career. So yeah, there's no such thing as a wasted relationship, I don't think. Utkarsh Narang (15:08.51) Good day. Utkarsh Narang (15:14.612) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (15:19.092) Yeah. 100%. But yeah, and then I'm going to come back to one thing that you said, but I want to kind of move into this, the work on empathy. And I've listened to a lot of your videos. I've listened to, I've read a lot of your LinkedIn posts. You've been interacting there. It's really powerful. But A, the first question is like, how did it emerge for you that this is going to be your life's work? Because it sometimes is like an epiphany, the light shines onto you or it could be something that gradually happens. It's different for everyone. So what was your journey like? How did it call upon you that, your life's work should be around empathy? Mimi Nicklin, Empathy Advocate (15:56.366) I don't think for me there was any kind of, like you said, a lightning bolt moment. What happened for me, I moved to the Middle East in 2018 for a CEO role and that CEO role didn't turn out to be quite how I expected it to be on paper. That process, that experience, first of all it was incredibly hard, probably the hardest I've ever had, led me to write my first book, Softening the Edge, which ultimately changed my life. Utkarsh Narang (16:00.98) Yeah. Mimi Nicklin, Empathy Advocate (16:26.272) There was no moment when I was like, right, I'm going to write a book to change my life. That wasn't how it was. It was a learning process. We talked earlier at Utkarsh about openness and open-mindedness. And when I went through that process, so I was in Dubai, I was trying to turn around this business, I honestly didn't know what I was doing. It was not from my skill set. I had never done anything like that before. Utkarsh Narang (16:31.22) Hmm. Mimi Nicklin, Empathy Advocate (16:47.99) And I went to meet a business coach and during that conversation with that business coach, she was talking to me about my leadership style and she asked me a question that, you know, in the end changed everything, which was, you know, is your leadership around intuition, which is what I thought at the time, or is your leadership actually based on empathy? And, you know, when someone asked me that, I remember thinking, no. Like what's empathy got to do with it? Why is she asking me that? But of course in hindsight she could see something in me that I hadn't even known to look for. Utkarsh Narang (17:17.684) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (17:24.34) Hmm. Mimi Nicklin, Empathy Advocate (17:24.908) And what that led to was me discovering empathy and what empathetic leadership is. And this was about five years ago when really no nobody was talking about this. So it was a was a journey that I embarked on. discovered it and I felt so passionate about this conversation. And I couldn't believe that nobody was talking about it. I couldn't believe that, you know, this wasn't part of the rhetoric and that organizations weren't witnessing or recognizing this deficit and the Utkarsh Narang (17:35.124) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (17:46.612) Hmm. Mimi Nicklin, Empathy Advocate (17:54.844) impact on their businesses and their bottom line as well as the well-being of their people. So I don't remember, you can see my eyes looking up because I'm trying to access my memories, I don't remember a day when I was like well nobody else is talking about it so I will. It was not like that, it was just like this very organic process that I discovered something that I felt more people should know about this, I can talk about this. Utkarsh Narang (17:57.498) Mmm. Mmm. Utkarsh Narang (18:04.094) Hmm. Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (18:10.004) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (18:17.65) Hmm. Hmm. Mimi Nicklin, Empathy Advocate (18:20.374) And then I had a book and it was a bestseller and I had a podcast and 85,000 people came. And, you know, over that time, sort of my life changed. But in all honesty, only in the last about four months, and we're talking, so it's been five years, and the last four months, did I have a moment when I suddenly almost realized. Utkarsh Narang (18:26.387) Beautiful. Mimi Nicklin, Empathy Advocate (18:41.102) I've done it, like I'm living my life's purpose. Until then, it was a passion, it was a calling. I loved it. I always loved it from the day I uttered the word. But it was only very recently. And that's why I talk so much about this hard work and consistency and tenacity, because at any time in those five years, I could have sort of changed track and, like, speaking about resilience or purpose or any other hundreds of things. Utkarsh Narang (18:52.756) Mm. Utkarsh Narang (19:09.065) Yeah. Mimi Nicklin, Empathy Advocate (19:09.876) It took that time until one day very recently I sort of realised I'm doing it. You know, there's far more for me to go. Like, I don't think the journey's anywhere near sort of done, but just that recognition that now I'm living my life's purpose and an acceptance, I think, from the universe that I was put here to do this, but I definitely didn't start there. Utkarsh Narang (19:17.748) Beautiful. Yeah. 100%. Utkarsh Narang (19:26.74) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (19:35.092) It's so powerful. mean, I'll have to go back and listen to this again, because there are parts of it that you're saying that I want to kind of note down and in imbibe. So what a few questions. One is just this this phrase that you said, acceptance by the universe. I think that's very powerful. And we could kind of have like 30 minutes just on that phrase. But what allowed you to keep going for 1800 days, almost like five years if I'm doing the math right, 365? Mimi Nicklin, Empathy Advocate (19:41.134) I'm Utkarsh Narang (20:04.404) 1800 days without stopping 1800 days with tenacity with all the hard work and whatever you're sharing it takes still more than just mere words to go on for that journey. So what was that guiding force that said, Mimi, you're not going to stop, stay on the path. Mimi Nicklin, Empathy Advocate (20:24.94) I don't know, passion, I think. I think passion, but I think to kind of unpack that a little bit more, a lack of doubt. And I think this is really, and no one's really asked me this before, so I'm thinking it through, but I think. Utkarsh Narang (20:32.85) Mm-hmm. Mimi Nicklin, Empathy Advocate (20:40.544) It's a lack of doubt, which does not mean that I didn't have a lack of confidence. So in that process, I was not full of confidence. So that also has been a journey for me and continues all the time. You know, when people ask me onto their shows or invite me to do things on the media and I, know, somebody invited me this week to do a celebrity spot on the radio. And I was like, why are Utkarsh Narang (20:47.092) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (21:05.0) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mimi Nicklin, Empathy Advocate (21:06.51) asking me, I'm not a celebrity. So the confidence, I'm not saying that I didn't have a lack of confidence, there was definite moments when I was like, why am I doing this? Am I sure I'm doing this? Am I doing it the right way? Does anybody care? All of those kind of confidence demons were there. Utkarsh Narang (21:18.836) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (21:22.388) Hmm. Mimi Nicklin, Empathy Advocate (21:23.01) But I did have a total security in what I was doing was right. That's why I say a lack of doubt. I never doubted that the world needs more empathy. I never doubted that it would help people if I could scale it. I never doubted that this work would create impact and that the world needs that impact. So I think when you have a lack of doubt about something, you can't stop. Utkarsh Narang (21:30.642) Yeah. Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (21:40.468) Mm. Mimi Nicklin, Empathy Advocate (21:47.212) because I believed always every day, however tired, however long, you know, and I show up every day, Sunday, Christmas day, every day, right, to do this work because I'm absolutely sure that it will make a difference. And I know it does because now I have enough reach for people to tell me and for people like you to find me and say, you know, Hey, I'm at Utkarsh. I'm doing a podcast for ignited neurons. Will you come and speak on it? Because I think what we're talking about is worthwhile. And as those signposts increased and Utkarsh Narang (21:53.076) Mm. Utkarsh Narang (22:12.082) Hmm. Absolutely. Mimi Nicklin, Empathy Advocate (22:17.388) The media, know, whether it was Harvard Business Review or the BBC or you know, all of those little moments I Really very consciously recognize them still to today, know often because I spend a lot of time on planes So often it happens on the plane I'll get an email from somebody and I'm like 35,000 feet in the air on my own and I'll get an email that says something good and I even then I really take a moment to Utkarsh Narang (22:27.956) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (22:40.404) Hmm. Mimi Nicklin, Empathy Advocate (22:46.338) Focus on that. Even if it's small, small moments and big moments, recognize them and allow them to fuel you. Because again, I feel that for many people, we're in such a rush where everything is so overwhelming, we're running to the next thing, we don't find time to recognize the last thing that we did. Utkarsh Narang (22:47.412) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (22:53.235) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (23:06.237) percent Mimi Nicklin, Empathy Advocate (23:07.968) So yeah, think those micro moments also helped me, encouraged me. And then of course the big ones help as well. I remember very clearly, it was about maybe a year and a half ago, but when the BBC asked me to come on live, and I didn't quite realize what they were asking. Actually, I think until the day, and I was on a screen just like we're on now, very similar platform, and I was in the waiting room, and the producer said to me, sound is ready, background is ready, all these things. Utkarsh Narang (23:28.756) Hmm. Mimi Nicklin, Empathy Advocate (23:37.824) I just want to remind you that the audience is live and it's 85 million. And I was like in my house, just like, and then he put me on hold for a bit. And I just sat there like, sorry, what? And then I know, and then after I did that, you I got all these WhatsApps like, Mimi, I'm at Wimbledon, you're on TV. I'm in Paris de Gaulle Airport, you're on TV. But I hadn't realized that when I did the interview. it just... Utkarsh Narang (23:50.42) How much? Mimi Nicklin, Empathy Advocate (24:06.582) I don't, do know what I mean? So that's what I talk about, you now I try to be extremely conscious of every moment I'm going into, what does it mean, what does it represent? And I let that fuel me. So if there's bad stuff, because there's always bad stuff, it can bounce a bit more because you focus on the good stuff. Ever the optimist. Utkarsh Narang (24:15.956) Mm. Utkarsh Narang (24:24.832) Love that. 85 million. I mean that's a number that my brain is going to take some moments to. But I love that. So if you have confidence, so there'll be moments when you don't have confidence, but that doubt did not creep in. You knew that this is the work to be done. You knew that this work was important and that's what kept you going. I love that. But for those who are maybe, and I hope that's not the case, but there might be some who might have not. Mimi Nicklin, Empathy Advocate (24:30.926) Ha ha! Utkarsh Narang (24:51.796) practiced empathy or understood empathetic leadership in its fullest form. If you were to describe, and I'm also cognizant of time because I don't want to take two hours of your time in this conversation, but what does empathy really mean and stand for? Mimi Nicklin, Empathy Advocate (24:57.634) Mm. Mimi Nicklin, Empathy Advocate (25:09.418) It won't take time at all, it's a very easy answer. Empathy is fundamentally perspective taking. It's a skill set. It's built into your brain, every brain at birth, into the prefrontal cortex. It is a human pro-social skill set. That means it helps us survive as a human race. It's a skill set that you are born with to be able to understand the reality of others. So yes, we can do three day master classes on it, but at its simplest, that's what it is. It's just about being able to understand Why does that person feel that way? Why do they think that thing? Why are they behaving in this way? Why is my teammate no longer receptive to me? Why am I not getting promoted and others are? Any type of evidence, it's fundamentally about understanding others or understanding yourself, but at its simplest, it's about perspective taking. It is not an emotion. It is not about being nice. It is nothing like sympathy or compassion. And no, women do not have more of it than men. Utkarsh Narang (26:05.833) Mm. Mimi Nicklin, Empathy Advocate (26:09.072) So there you go, in six sentences I've summarized the empathy of the master class Utkarsh Narang (26:10.996) Thank you. Love that, love that. And we'll have a longer conversation on this. But help me understand, like for someone who might find this concept a little new, and I'll start with self and then I'll move quickly to others and then we can see where this conversation goes. But if I were to say that I want to have empathy for myself, what does that look like in like my day to day? For example, I'll give you an example, or I'll not because then I'll also bias you. But yeah, what does self empathy look like? Mimi Nicklin, Empathy Advocate (26:31.342) Mm. Mimi Nicklin, Empathy Advocate (26:43.704) Self-empathy is, in a similar way, it's fundamental understanding of yourself. So it's being able to recognize what you need to thrive, to win, to survive. It's about understanding how you feel, how different environments enable you or create a response in you. It's just about understanding yourself. So, for example, some people will say to me, Mimi, I think best when I run. That is an act of self-empathy. I know my brain works better when I'm in motion. Utkarsh Narang (27:08.884) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (27:13.204) Hmm. Mimi Nicklin, Empathy Advocate (27:13.6) or, you know, when I've had a really stressful day, I like to put candles on, or I really appreciate classical music, whatever those things are. Those are all sort of micro-moments of self-empathy. in the end, you cannot truly create empathy for others if you don't actually have empathy for yourself. And the reason for that is not because of all the very beautiful self-help advice out there about looking after yourself and filling up your cup and all that stuff. Important. But that's not what self-empathy is. The reason that is, is that if you don't have self-empathy, you can never separate out your biases and your judgements from your understanding of others. So you may think, let me give you an example, you may go into work and think that one of your teammates is just really off, really grumpy, just really unhappy. That is your assumption. Until you ask them, how are you feeling today and can you help me understand why you're behaving like this, it is about assumption, it's about judgment. Utkarsh Narang (27:50.516) Hmm. Mimi Nicklin, Empathy Advocate (28:13.516) It's about bias. None of those things are bad things. They're just natural. So you have to know those about yourself in order to be able to truly understand other people. And I think that's a really critical relationship between understanding yourself and then connections with other people, like connectivity socially out there in the world. Utkarsh Narang (28:15.05) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (28:26.248) Mm. Utkarsh Narang (28:31.742) Yeah, I'm trying to assimilate everything you're saying because it's full of wisdom. So what I'm understanding is that A, there needs to be lot of awareness as to what takes for you and what works for you. And you need to be able to find moments and implement that advice for yourself is where it's starting. It has to be a non-judgmental space is what I'm hearing you say. Because if you start to judge yourself like... Mimi Nicklin, Empathy Advocate (28:35.47) Ha ha. Utkarsh Narang (28:59.25) I would come onto this podcast and I'm like right now thinking, and this is a new home office still building that the light on my face is so hard. Like what is Mimi thinking? That's, that's against the empathy. Instead, it could be around the conversation we are having Would that be like a right example? Mimi Nicklin, Empathy Advocate (29:14.358) Yeah, I think so. I mean, again, self-empathy is really just understanding what you need to thrive and to be able to do your best in the world. And we spoke earlier about disappointment, but it comes up again now because the... Utkarsh Narang (29:22.804) Mmm. Mimi Nicklin, Empathy Advocate (29:27.532) The opposite of knowing yourself is obviously not knowing yourself and the gap between expectation and reality is disappointment. So if you don't understand yourself, you will be disappointed. You why didn't I do better? Why do I feel this way? Why does it hurt me that? Why do I always cry when? All of those types of sentences, right? It's a lack of understanding. I mean, when you're asking the question why, it's because you need an answer, right? You don't understand yet. Utkarsh Narang (29:49.332) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (29:55.38) Hmm. Mimi Nicklin, Empathy Advocate (29:57.196) So yeah, it's really about that understanding of yourself in order to be able to do better in life, in your relationships, in your romantic relationships, in the workplace. Wherever that is, the clearer you are about knowing who you are, the better those relationships will become. Utkarsh Narang (30:09.172) Mm. Utkarsh Narang (30:13.908) Powerful, powerful. And in this word, yet, if there's a three-letter word that I can fall in love with, that word is yet. But for those who are still building this muscle and still trying to, and I'm just being like a devil's advocate here because I want this to be of value to whoever is listening. If I were to try and build my self-empathy and build that muscle and strengthen it, is there something that you can advise me or like a... a pro tip that I can take from from Mimi and start to put into practice which will allow me to be more empathetic towards myself and maybe others. Mimi Nicklin, Empathy Advocate (30:47.915) And then. I think if it's towards yourself, of all the sort tools that we use, I think the one that people respond to the best is journaling. I'm going to be really honest, I don't do it myself, but I often recommend it to people and the feedback I get from sort of entry level employees all the way to male CEOs, predominantly in India where I work a lot with CEOs, you know, they don't know what this is, they're not sure why they would do it, but I often get feedback three or six months later saying I cannot now stop. Utkarsh Narang (30:59.47) Mmm. Mimi Nicklin, Empathy Advocate (31:19.86) You know I journal every Sunday morning over my cup of coffee. I take myself away from my wife my children I sit in my study or on my balcony or wherever they are and I just write down reflections of the week that's gone by what went well what didn't go well what I want to do this week and Mimi now I'm in it. I can't stop you know it very powerful very powerful way just to slow the clock down for a moment and just reflect on what's going on and again particularly the more senior you are into leadership Utkarsh Narang (31:30.9) you Mimi Nicklin, Empathy Advocate (31:49.494) positions, the honest truth is the less time you have and you've touched it a few times at Car Shorn, know, but what about young people listening? And I know because of course we're both still relatively young that you think that and you have no time already, but I promise you once you get to a stage in life when you have children, when you may have parents to look after and you have more responsibility at work, time becomes less and less and less which means we have to be better and better at maths. managing it and that's part of going through your 20s and 30s, is learning how to manage your time and your responsibilities and what you love. Utkarsh Narang (32:26.696) Yeah. Mimi Nicklin, Empathy Advocate (32:27.084) So that journaling, or you could just call it reflecting if you don't like the word journaling, but that reflection is a really great tool to understand yourself and where you're spending your time. What is it that's driving you mad? Why do you not like that? Why are you feeling down? Why do you feel anxious? Why are you no longer going out as much as you used to? Until you create a space to actually have that sort of dialogue with yourself, you'll never solve it, right? It'll just swirl. So yeah, that would be my number one. Utkarsh Narang (32:46.547) love it. Mimi Nicklin, Empathy Advocate (32:57.058) tool for self empathy, my number one tool for empathy with others is just to practice your listening and that really is a masterclass on its own but fundamentally I would just say to people ask better questions. Given the time we've got for this conversation just focus on how often you are inquiring about other people whether that's your mum, your sister, your wife, your children, all the people at work. How often are you asking questions of people to understand better Utkarsh Narang (33:04.084) you Mimi Nicklin, Empathy Advocate (33:27.081) their work, their deadlines, their loves, their disappointment, their frustration, their mood. The better you ask questions, the better you'll understand people. Utkarsh Narang (33:27.124) Mm. Utkarsh Narang (33:37.294) turning out to be such a master class, such a master class. It can make you a better leader, manager, parent, sibling, spouse, friend, human being at the end of the day is what I'm hearing you say to me. And on journaling, know, one thought that I often share with my coaches and I love it. I think it's a very powerful activity. It's somewhere in the background. We produce a journal. So anyone who's wanting to buy, go on Amazon and find Ignite Life Journal. Mimi Nicklin, Empathy Advocate (33:38.862) It's not meant to be, it's just a conversation. Mimi Nicklin, Empathy Advocate (33:50.318) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (34:06.876) just doing an ad in the middle of the podcast. It's important. It's important. But what I often say to my coaches is don't try and be very poetic on your journal. Don't try and make some amazing themes and thoughts come out so that it becomes like a stoic journal. You don't have to do that. It's just a space for you to pause, reflect and be with yourself. And I think that's what you're pointing towards. And listening, I mean, Mimi Nicklin, Empathy Advocate (34:08.206) Do an ad. Throw it out there. Utkarsh Narang (34:33.572) It seems such a simple skill to do. again, going back to something that my father used to tell me often, Utkarsh, always remember, we have two ears and one mouth. So listen more and speak less. I love that. growing up, like since a little child, I would listen to this from him every single day. But as we move forward on this conversation, and I'm wanting to bring it to closure in the next 10, 12 minutes. But it seems in this world, which is cutthroat, which is chasing success, which is where is my corner office? It seems that if I'm too empathetic, I might lose out on something. And so how do you really see empathy playing a role in actually helping you elevate yourself as a leader to those senior CEOs, the folks that, and I remember you were sharing stage with Bill Gates. Maybe what did that conversation look like? Like, why should... someone like Bill Gates be empathetic or why should someone who's growing up as a CEO be empathetic? Mimi Nicklin, Empathy Advocate (35:37.314) Look again, you can't go through all of it in the time that we have, but I'll give you the highlights, which is that empathy as a skill set is used by the FBI. It is used by all of the armies of the world. It's used in conflict situations. It's used in hostage negotiations. Fundamentally, empathy is a really hard skill, hard to find, yes, and hard to master, but it has hard impact. So for anybody who's listening who thought it was a soft skill, I mean, there you go, lesson done. Because fundamentally, you are ga- Utkarsh Narang (35:42.441) Mm-hmm. Mimi Nicklin, Empathy Advocate (36:07.2) Gathering insight you are gathering data to as we've touched on build better relationships Increase your ability to overcome risks so to manage conflict to build trust to create loyalty to drive engagement and So everything a leader needs Comes from empathy right I often say to people to lead you need to first listen Because how can you ever lead people if you don't understand them? How can you become the world's best CEO or the leading Utkarsh Narang (36:30.324) you Mimi Nicklin, Empathy Advocate (36:37.104) innovator in the market or the tech platform that cuts through if you don't understand your people and those that you're serving, i.e. your customers or your clients, right? So that's how I'm able to do the work I do because it's a huge space. There is actually no product, no category, no service, no team that will not grow and become more profitable when there's more empathy from both the leader and their team. And the data will show you, for example, empathetic organizations are 23 % higher profit Utkarsh Narang (37:01.608) Hmm. Mimi Nicklin, Empathy Advocate (37:07.024) They have 23 % higher profit, 68 % higher levels of engagement, 48 % higher levels of innovation, 17 % more efficient. So I mean, the data is endless, right? course, the data's endless. But fundamentally, if you want to grow, if you want your people to come with you to work longer hours out of choice, to be more efficient, to overcome risks, there is a space for empathy. And I think that understanding is rising, which is why the work I'm doing is traveling around the world. Utkarsh Narang (37:16.212) Mm. Mimi Nicklin, Empathy Advocate (37:37.104) because people now realize that if you don't have understanding, I mean, in the end you have a short-lived reality, right? Because eventually it will run out. Utkarsh Narang (37:48.146) Yeah, Beautiful. I agree with everything that you're saying. I think, yeah, I think to anyone who's who's still on the other side and is still not feeling that empathy is that hard skill to learn, manage, practice and put into put into the world. think they need to just listen to this word where you're saying to lead, you need to first start with listening. And that to me is what empathy stands for. But As we now come towards the closure, the final question that I have for you, Mimi, is we go forward a few decades from now, three, four, five, whatever that number looks like. At 80 years old, what advice would that Mimi have for you right now if she were to just turn around and say something to you? Mimi Nicklin, Empathy Advocate (38:35.928) I think it would be two things and we've touched on both already. think one would be look after your health because nothing else matters really. I'm super conscious of it now because I travel so much because I'm constantly in different time zones and on planes and eating out of home and sleeping in different beds and hotels and all these things. I'm super conscious. But I think the second thing I would say within that point is I try to take the pressure off myself to make that manageable because I think you follow the media and Instagram and everything else, you're going to be trying to do, I don't know, like wool pilates and organic food and this 19 supplements and wheatgrass and probiotics. I mean, it's endless, right? It's endless. And I think the endlessness makes it very short lived because you go hard at the gym for three months and then you don't go again for six, right? And because you take your supplements for the first 28 days of the month and then they sit in the kitchen half pot, right? For six months. So my Utkarsh Narang (39:17.778) Yeah. Mimi Nicklin, Empathy Advocate (39:35.856) first 80 year old advice would be to look after your health but just take the pressure off. If you forget the vitamin C for two weeks just start again in week three right. If you haven't been to the gym for three months you can go in month four you know. So I think that's really important that kind of pressureless health. Utkarsh Narang (39:38.74) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (39:54.324) Yeah. Mimi Nicklin, Empathy Advocate (39:54.566) And the second thing I would say, I think I touched on it earlier, is just to live in the moment. Because you hear it all the time, but I feel like this year, I have had a few people in my life who have either been ill or passed away. And it just really reminds you, you just have no idea, right? what's going to happen with that health or with your career. All of those hundreds of thousands of people who have been made redundant this year, all of the layoffs and the tech companies, people that had been at some of these massive brands for 20 years. I met somebody recently who told me a story in the US last week of a very huge, I won't name them, but massive global company that we all know who made three men redundant on email after 32 years. Those 32 year people, those men, they were all men, absolutely thought they were going to be there till their retirement. Until one Monday morning when somebody in HR, after 32 years, emailed them and said, hey, don't bother coming back. You have no idea what is going to come in the future. So because of that, Utkarsh Narang (41:01.652) Hmm. Mimi Nicklin, Empathy Advocate (41:07.91) I say live in the present because today you can control it or at least a little bit. The moment when you are in the swimming pool with your children or at movie night or enjoying a cup of coffee. In that moment you can be and don't let the fear of what might be or the risk of what might be stop you enjoying the moment because I think that's it's all actually makes me a bit emotional but it's all we have right. All we have really for sure is right now so make sure you enjoy it. Utkarsh Narang (41:37.684) As the sun sets here for me, it's 8.43 my time here in Melbourne. Thank you for all that honesty and authenticity. think I'll not even say I wanted to use the word wisdom, but what you're saying is absolutely makes sense. This conversation, this was beautiful. I don't know if 85 million people will listen to it. I wish. I wish, exactly. Who knows? But even if they don't, Mimi Nicklin, Empathy Advocate (42:00.984) Who knows? They might. Utkarsh Narang (42:05.874) I was listening, Mimi, and I know that whatever I said, you were listening. So that to me is, is precious. But whoever is listening, live this moment that you have, pause this podcast, go and hug your family, say hi to your manager, look at your team and be proud of what they're achieving. And that all of that is empathy in practice. Mimi Nicklin, Empathy Advocate (42:18.638) you Mimi Nicklin, Empathy Advocate (42:27.638) It is and, Utkarsh the last thing I would say is it exactly as you just said, thank you for listening to me. It is a gift and I am extremely grateful that you gave me your time and you invited me to share your space and yeah, let's keep listening to each other and to everyone who tuned in, thank you as well. Utkarsh Narang (42:35.346) It is a myth. Utkarsh Narang (42:45.748) That's such a beautiful thought to end this podcast on. And anyone who wants to find Mimi, find her on LinkedIn. We'll put all the links into the show notes. You just Google her and you'll find all the wisdom and all the information on her. And Mimi, wish you the best in 2025. Beautiful things will emerge, continue to emerge and bigger, and they'll go wherever you want them to go. Mimi Nicklin, Empathy Advocate (43:02.552) Me too. Mimi Nicklin, Empathy Advocate (43:07.438) Thank you, you too.