Utkarsh Narang (00:04.716) If you're living a life that spells like meh, that's M-E-H, and you want to make it memorable, then this might be a podcast that you need. Welcome, Michael. How are you doing? Michael Dargie (00:14.724) so good. Utkarsh thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited for this. Utkarsh Narang (00:20.0) Looking forward to the conversation. And for everyone, Michael helps brands go from meh to memorable. And I told him that we might talk about brands, but we'll definitely talk about human lives because that's what we're here for. And Michael would love to see how your perspective on adventure shapes our listeners. And then what do feel about doing weird things with your people? That's the hypothesis today. Michael Dargie (00:46.083) Okay, well, I I love it. It is my power move is to find weird people and do weird stuff with them. I think that's the spice of life, isn't it is, you know, find the people that are maybe different, different than you, but maybe have the same alignment to, to have an adventure to go and explore the world to be curious and to find out what happens when you do this or do that. Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (00:53.046) Amazing. Utkarsh Narang (01:05.973) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (01:13.09) Yeah. And that's how you and I found each other, right? Amazing. But the ritual at the podcast is that we want to start from the very beginning. And so the first question that we start with is if that eight-year-old Michael, the little boy, wherever Michael was growing up at eight years old, if that boy were to come and meet you right now, what kind of a conversation would emerge between the two of you? Michael Dargie (01:15.707) Yeah. Michael Dargie (01:38.971) This is such a powerful question and it has been on my mind a lot. I mean, I think that eight year old me would be pretty excited by what I've done with life. But by the same token, I think that he would have some pretty harsh words about, you know, some of the things I should have done sooner. It took me eight year old me wanting to be a marine mammal biologist. That is what I wanted to be when when I was eight. Utkarsh Narang (02:08.632) Wow, marine mammal biologist, very specific. Michael Dargie (02:11.97) super specific because I was watching the undersea world of Jacques Cousteau when I was a kid. My parents, just to give you context, would come home from the library with reels of film and they put it in a projector that they rented from the library and we would watch on a screen that they also rented from the library the undersea world of Jacques Cousteau and I was just like was fascinated by the underwater world. It took me, man it wasn't until I think probably eight years into marriage so when we finally had time and money to have a honeymoon that we went on a cruise and I ended up in St. Croix and I went scuba diving for the first time. It was the most... memorable thing I think I've ever done and I chase that feeling every single time I like I scuba dive now in every body of water I get to but I think eight year old me would be like you should have done that when you were nine like you should have started that adventure because the underwater world is such a such a gift that we get to explore so that that would be it Utkarsh Narang (03:23.278) So, so pretty excited with the, what, what he sees, uh, but also harsh. I agree, like last year I went to, uh, Cain's this north part of Australia and we went to the coral reefs. Stunning. Stunning. It's, it's unreal. It's unreal. But at that age, at eight years old, what kind of adventures were you having that, uh, that started to shape who you, who you have become? Michael Dargie (03:38.725) Yeah. Michael Dargie (03:52.795) Um, yeah, I don't know, like, when I was growing up, like, we grew up just outside of Toronto in Canada, and lived in a small town, and we were basically kicked out, you know, in the morning by my parents saying, you know, come back for lunch, and then later come back for dinner, and then later come back before it's dark. Those were the parameters that we had. We grew up... just behind us was a creek called Duffin's Creek and there was a forest and we just went and explored and we caught turtles and we played with crawdads and we built forts. That was life growing up. So I think that it's always been not an enforced adventure but a here's the world go play in it. Utkarsh Narang (04:45.934) It does and I'm wondering that there are these beautiful devices that first Apple started to create and then more, which has stopped people from having that sense of play that's... I said people and I think by people I mean from five to 95 because we're all so captivated by what we have in our hands. Michael Dargie (04:46.394) I don't know if that answers your question. Utkarsh Narang (05:14.562) that not all of us break free to have the adventures that we can have. So what would be your, what would be your guidance to them? Like how, like, like I'm just moving into this conversation around adventure, right? How does adventure shape us? Michael Dargie (05:28.622) Yeah. Well, so I have a couple thoughts on that. mean, one thought is, so my youngest son, like both my boys are like they're they're, I say young men, they're men now, like they're in their 30s. But, you know, my youngest son, we grew, like we raised them, our house backed onto a river, like in in Okotoks, Alberta. and they had free run, both boys could just go charge into the forest and go explore and do stuff. We didn't talk about screen time. We just we talked about outside time. If they wanted to come back and play Xbox or whatever, they had to accumulate a certain number of hours outside before they could come and do inside stuff. Right. And I remember never forget this. There's a picture somewhere on the on the Internet where my youngest son takes off for the afternoon. and we don't know where he is but I end up going for a bike ride down the bike path and I end up at this bridge that crosses the the sheep river to the library and there's a rope connected to the bridge and I'm just like what the hell and I look over the bridge and there's my youngest son on a skim board and he's tied a rope and he's holding it and he's surfing the waves of the river And that's just what he's doing. He's just like doing his thing, you know, like he's just right, like finding adventure. that was his go to move was to just get out and experience stuff. I so to answer your question, I think that, you know, these devices are really cool and really great. But they also. It's really cool to put them down, like even just leave them at home. then just go for a walk without that? I mean we used to do that. Utkarsh Narang (07:26.69) Yeah. Love it. Love it. What's the weirdest thing that you've done? Michael Dargie (07:33.11) my god. The weirdest thing? Utkarsh Narang (07:38.208) I don't know why this question came to me, but I was thinking about as I was prepping for a conversation, I would love to deep dive into whatever these experiences have been that you, yeah, you would call weird. Michael Dargie (07:51.353) Yeah, okay, well I accidentally ended up sitting on... Oh God, it's like four o'clock in the morning. It's in Rome. It's in the Palatine Hills and I'm sitting on the roof of the Emperor's castle overlooking the baths of the Vestal Virgins playing my guitar and I was playing Wish You Were Here by Pink Floyd. as the city, as Rome was down to a dull roar because it's 4 a.m. you know, sun is starting to break maybe behind me. And yeah, we got into it like there. Yeah, there's some really weird shit that happened in Rome. But that's probably the weirdest thing that ever happened was, you know, just that was so surreal. Earlier that night, we were in Piazza Navona. Utkarsh Narang (08:39.723) you Michael Dargie (08:49.129) And like I got freaked out by this my first time in Rome and I got freaked out by all the chaos and stuff so I kept my guitar close because that's where I like I felt safe and I end up in Piazza Navona and I'm sitting on it's called the something of the four rivers it's like a fountain of the four rivers And I'm sitting there and I'm playing my guitar and I'm just minding my own business. I've got a cafe beside me, like a little espresso. And then a guy shows up and he's just like, can I play your guitar? And I'm like, yeah, sure. So then he starts playing a song. And then before you know it, I'm surrounded by 20 people and everybody is taking their turn with my guitar singing their favorite song. in the middle of this piazza in Rome and that was magical. I don't know how that all happened it just happened because I was in a spot doing a thing and I was receptive to other things happening. Is that does that fit? Utkarsh Narang (09:58.649) Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. There's no container box, which has to fit anything. I love it. I want to get into this idea now because I think that's what attracted me to have this conversation with you. You speak about brands and I love the idea of brand Jitsu, right? In the book. This idea helped me understand. Love it. Thank you. Michael Dargie (10:21.573) Thank you. Utkarsh Narang (10:23.788) And maybe you can, you can focus on the brand story and we'll see what lessons we can derive for the human story. But what does it mean to go from meh and I'm, I'm, I'm hopefully pronouncing that word correctly to memorable. What does it take? What does it mean actually first? That's what, that's where I want to start. Like what does a meh brand or a meh life look like? Michael Dargie (10:29.221) Sure. Michael Dargie (10:34.927) Yep, you're killing it. Truth. Michael Dargie (10:44.581) Well, if I could, I'll tell you a bit of a story around it. many years ago, I was in a show at Loosemoose Theater. So Loosemoose is one of the founding theaters of improvisational comedy in the world. And we were doing a show called Maestro Impro. And basically what happens is 14 actors go on stage. Utkarsh Narang (10:48.043) Let's do it. Michael Dargie (11:10.635) and they perform scenes together and then at the end of every scene the audience votes you know they give you a score from one to five and at the end of the round the lowest scoring improvisers get sent away until at the end of the night there's only one maestro left right so we've gone through this whole we've gone through the night the theater's electric the it's a 200 seat theater which doesn't sound like a lot but it's it's pretty huge like in our in our world and the night is electric and there's three of us left and myself and another guy get chosen to go up and perform a scene together and we crush it like we did we got the audience scored a four out of five so we think that we're going to the final and then a really good friend of mine Jen Bain she has to do a solo scene she's all by herself on stage and my god like she just So she asks for a spotlight on center stage. She asked for the sonographers backstage to bring out a couch. She walks out of the spotlight over to her purse and grabs this thing from her purse and goes and lies down on the couch and pretends to go to sleep. And on her chest is this little dog puppet. And I just, need to pause because that's what it took. It took a pause for the audience to understand what was happening and the audience laughs. And the dog looks at the audience. And she's just trying to go to sleep. And the audience laughs harder. And the dog gets really excited, right, that there's an audience there. And Jen is like, like just trying to go back to sleep. The dog's bugging her and stuff like this. And this is just a puppet that's happening. And the audience laughs even further. The dog like looks at Jen, does like a little dance around Jen, tries to like nuzzle her awake. And she just pushes the dog away and goes, dies back. Five minutes of this happens. And not a word is spoken. And. Michael Dargie (13:10.263) It is one of the most powerful pieces of theater I've ever seen in my life and I will never forget it. And it's in the preface of my book. I sort of draw that out because what my friend and I did, which scored a four out of five was meh. It was forgettable. It was disposable. It was a thing that I remember we did well, but I don't remember what it was. Memorable is when you land on truth because every single person in that audience she scored a five by the way they would have given her a 10 if they could every single audience member anybody who's had an animal like a cat dog parakeet whatever recognized what was happening on the stage was true and it hit Utkarsh Narang (13:43.736) like. Michael Dargie (14:01.364) such an important part of us because we saw that as this moment, this slice of life, this moment of truth, this just brilliant bit of life that we saw through the eyes of a dog and like and the eyes of the human who's just trying to have a nap for the love of God. You know what mean? So that that to me is what's meh versus memorable. Truth and clarity I think. Utkarsh Narang (14:19.502) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (14:29.678) That's beautiful. I'm trying to think of examples that I'm surrounded by. And I love the idea that what may means and I'm connecting it back to human life. What may would mean is that you live a life which maybe you not even you are fully proud of. And I feel like a sense of pain that's going within me as I'm talking about this. And so because there would be what like nine billion people on the planet and Michael Dargie (14:53.763) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (14:59.51) This could be the last day that we be on this planet and still there are people who have male lives. And then there's the other side, which is memorable, which you shared that beautiful story. And I think you said the name Jen. I'm never going to forget Jen. And I'm going to think of the puppet and think of the dog and think of. And so that becomes the truth, the clarity, the. The memory that it creates. Michael Dargie (15:12.376) Yeah Michael Dargie (15:21.796) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (15:24.098) How does one go from mad to memorable? Michael Dargie (15:28.002) Well, I think that we have to just, it's a great question. I mean, it's a deep question. But I think that if we if we take a page out of Jen Baines book, for example, and we just she wasn't trying hard. Do know what I mean? Like she just she just presented us with this slice of truth. I even look at, you know, my my youngest son surfing on under that bridge. Utkarsh Narang (15:40.002) Mm-hmm. Michael Dargie (15:57.667) just a slice of truth. wasn't trying to prove anything or be anything. He was just being. I look at my eldest son and man, he took me on a motorcycle ride from Clark Freeport zone in the Philippines to Subic Bay. And we were riding motorcycles together, you know, with skinny cows passing us and misty mountains and in Asia, like. there was we weren't trying to be anything other than what we were. So I think that's what makes things memorable is not because you can see lots of people trying to be something and trying to do something. Nike is a really interesting example as a business. Like the stuff they did with Colin Kaepernick is so cool. But even before that, one of their first pieces of advertising was there is no finish line. Utkarsh Narang (16:42.306) Yeah. Michael Dargie (16:53.944) That was all they said. And my God, that's memorable. How old is that? That happened in like this early 70s. Now it's 90s too, right? Like we're so far and it still resonates. It still hits hard because it's true. Because if you're an athlete or if you're a musician, if you're anybody trying to do something, you know that the finish line isn't the end. Utkarsh Narang (17:05.592) Cheers. Utkarsh Narang (17:17.24) Yeah. And, and, and I don't know why Nike was striking in my head as you were speaking about not trying to do hard, just be, be who you are. And I finished the half marathon last year in Melbourne and as I'm back, thank you. Thank you. And it was my personal best of one hour, 52 minutes. yeah, that was the amazing experience. And as I was coming back to the train station, there was a big ad by Nike and all that said, I Michael Dargie (17:31.278) Congratulations. Michael Dargie (17:35.857) my god, that's amazing. Utkarsh Narang (17:46.838) Like I would have read it for like three seconds, but I remember it. All it said was, remember you did not start running to finish the marathon. was like, yeah, exactly. And how you apply that to the race, to life, to a brand, to everything, right? Because you do something for the sheer joy of it. Life has, and a brand again, we'll keep doing this paradoxical conversation. Life, know, the end of life is you get buried six feet down under, that's it. Michael Dargie (18:15.607) Yes. Michael Dargie (18:24.44) I love it. Utkarsh Narang (18:30.615) That's it. And so you want to make this a memorable life. Michael Dargie (18:35.017) Yes, absolutely. I think the more people I did an ad campaign for a company called Pearson's Funeral Service. So they're a funeral company like they help when people die. Utkarsh Narang (18:36.352) Love it. Michael Dargie (18:50.147) And we did this campaign and it's life by and I mentioned in the book and I've mentioned other places as well, but it's like life by Mary, for example, and it shows a picture of this amazing elderly woman with a surfboard living her best life. So life by Mary celebrations by Pearsons and the idea behind this. This campaign. was we're all going to shuffle off this mortal coil at some point. It's going to happen. You can't escape it. Nobody's done that yet. But the reality is going to happen. And while you're here, you have this little slice of time to do stuff and do the stuff that you want to do. Utkarsh Narang (19:24.93) Yeah. I hope that does, that never happens. I hope that. Yeah. Michael Dargie (19:42.773) And how I mean, it's not even how people will remember you. That's not what I mean by memorable, but like what mark do you leave? Did you did you do your best? Did you have fun? Did you help others? Utkarsh Narang (19:56.623) Yeah, love it. It's such a fucking simple idea. It's like there's no rocket science to it. And again, I think as I'm saying that, you know, and I love your view on it. But again, we get into this frustrating comparison game, right? Which is that, Utkash has a podcast. Why don't I have one? Michael has written a book. Michael Dargie (20:01.283) I know. No. Utkarsh Narang (20:21.814) I know Elon Musk just launched a space shuttle to Mars, but I have not had it. And we keep doing these comparisons. How do we get out of that? Michael Dargie (20:35.203) Yeah, I mean, I struggle with that a lot, Utkarsh. I like, I want to do so much while I'm here, because I'm passionately curious about stuff. Like, I started my podcast because I was just, I wanted to know how it worked. And then here I am, like, heading into season nine and having great conversations. I wrote a book because I... kept telling people I was going to write this book. And eventually it became this thing where I'm just like, if I don't write the book, I'm a liar. And so I had to, to, can I swear? I had to fucking do it. Like I finally had to, like, and that was painful. My partner, Jen McLean, she was published before I was, a book of cat poetry, by the way, written by a cat for cats. Utkarsh Narang (21:05.038) you Utkarsh Narang (21:14.552) Yeah. Michael Dargie (21:26.815) And she Jennifer mcclain.ca but she an ode to myself is the name of the book, and she would tease me relentlessly because my book wasn't written. By the time I got an agent by the time I got a publishing deal. I still hadn't finished writing the book. So now I had to get the book written. Do you know what I mean like Utkarsh Narang (21:50.328) No pressure, no pressure. Michael Dargie (21:51.254) Yeah, no pressure whatsoever. I had six months. I probably spent two of those months like spinning around like being like, my God, what am going to do? How am going to do that? And then finally four months out, I'm just like, holy shit, I got like four months to finish this thing. I got to get it done. So I don't am I answering a question? I don't even know. Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (22:13.696) We're having a conversation. I don't know if there was a question. What else? If we were to go back to brands and you gave the example of Nike from just do it to there is no finish line to Utkashi did not start running because of the marathon. What else takes a brand from Mehto Memorable? Michael Dargie (22:35.905) there's well there's a there's a thing in my book and a picture that I drew on a napkin for somebody like 10 years ago because this person they just see me do a talk and they're like I want to work with you I'm like cool and we meet for coffee we're down in Kensington in Calgary and they're just like hey I want a logo and I need a new marketing piece to download off my website I'm like cool like what do want for logo they're just like I want a blue boat I'm like, cool, like, I like blue boats. I can do that. And then I'm like, but why? And he goes, what do mean, why? I'm like, why a blue boat? why does that, why is that going to be the icon that represents your company and is going to be the thing that people imprint on? Why is that? goes, I, nobody's ever asked me that. I'm like. Alright, so I drew what I now call the world's cheesiest metaphor, which is on a napkin I drew a the top of an iceberg and I said this is the outward expression of your brand. This is what everybody sees. And I drew a little penguin, a little sunshine, there's a fluffy cloud, there's like an albatross. And I'm just like imagine that that's that's what people see as they float by on their boat or whatever as your iceberg goes by they see that stuff. That's really cool. I said, but what's below the surface is what allows that iceberg to be present. It allows it to be seen. Because if it wasn't there, it would flip upside down. There'd be nothing. So down below the surface, we have things like vision, purpose, and values. Like that's where we start the conversation. Like what is your vision? Like what's your big hairy audacious goal? What do you hope to accomplish? Michael Dargie (24:25.282) What's your purpose? Why are you doing this thing? And what are your values? What are the guardrails that ensure that you're going to do it right? You know what mean? And above that is what I call the brand DNA. And so if we go back to improv theater for a sec, Keith Johnstone would say he's a founder of loose moose theater. He would say that when you go on stage, you have about 30 seconds where you can do whatever you want. Utkarsh Narang (24:34.38) Yeah. Yeah. Michael Dargie (24:51.764) and the audience will be with you. But during that 30 seconds, you should create what's called a platform. They need to know who are you, where are you, what are you doing, who are you with, and what's your relationship. So if I go on stage with you, Karsh, and I'm just like, I'm doing this, I'm digging a hole just so that people, if they're listening, not watching, they know what's happening. I'm like, Karsh, have you seen Dad? We know right now the answer to those five questions. You and I are brothers. We're outside. I'm digging a hole. Dad is somewhere. We don't know where. So right now, the audience can understand the circle of expectation. So where this story can go. They go from leaning back in their seats, wondering what's going to happen, to now leaning forward, understanding what might happen. Right? And you might say, my god, I thought you had them, which then tilts. the scene because we need to have a platform before you can tilt it and the tilt is the emotional exchange that happens that makes us care about what happens next. Like is dad dead? Did we lose dad? Where's dad? Like now we have more questions and the story can move forward. Does that make sense? Utkarsh Narang (26:03.948) Yes, yes it does. I love this. I actually drew this. The world's cheesiest metaphor. So I'm gonna steal that. It is so true. This is the world's cheesiest metaphor, but it communicates the message really well. Michael Dargie (26:06.506) So in. I love it. Michael Dargie (26:17.375) It is. 100%. So in a brand world from a business perspective, the platform for a business is what do you do? Why do you do it? Who do you do it for? And why do they care? If you can answer those four basic questions without any marketing spin without any. And when I do this with clients, it's four hours just to answer these four questions. It's tough. But the the idea is that if you're Utkarsh Narang (26:44.024) It is. Michael Dargie (26:46.984) really sincere and truthful and strip away all the BS. Nike, for example, back in the day, their brand DNA might have been, make shoes. That's the what do you do? Why do you do it? To improve athletic performance. Bill Bowerman and Philip Knight, like Bill Bowerman was all about helping his athletes perform better. Philip Knight believed that everybody should be running like it's just a thing that you should do. It makes you a better person. Who do you do it for athletes. Why did they care because it actually does improve athletic performance like Bill Bowerman would create would make shoes under the stands of the Oregon track and field using his wife's waffle maker. Utkarsh Narang (27:19.022) Mm. Michael Dargie (27:30.879) he would create these mixtures and give them to his athletes on hill training to see if the the high glucose or whatever would improve their athletic performance. That's what he was about. If we can get that clear right away, what do you do? Why do you do it? Who do you do it for? Why do they care? And strip away all the bullshit and just be clear on that stuff. That's then a platform we can build on and we can then look at the brand personality. How do you show up in the world? How do you walk, talk and act? Who do you attract? Who do you repel? You know, that's a really important thing. Like, what's your language? That'll also help eventually with colors and typography and all that other stuff. Above that is your customer, the hero of the story. You're there to serve them. You're like the, you're the Yoda or the Obi-Wan who's helping Luke or Princess Leia on their journey to defeat the empire. You're just there to help them, give them the force so that they can go do that. That's your job. Utkarsh Narang (28:35.874) Yeah. Yeah. Love this. Love this. So, so, and, and I'm like, look at Apple, look at Nike, look at, look at so many brands and you'll have more examples. And I think everything that you're saying resonates. And now I'm just going to nudge our listeners. If, if you don't still see it, you're not someone who discusses marketing or brands every single day, ask yourself these questions, because what Michael just shared is Michael Dargie (28:53.164) You Utkarsh Narang (29:05.128) such a great framework for life, where at the top is what the world sees, which is you, the expression of who you are, the personal brand that you carry, and below it is your vision, purpose, and your values. What are your big, hairy, or ish goals that will keep you going? And I was talking to someone earlier this week, Michael, they asked me, do you have 45 minutes to brainstorm on why should they start a podcast? So they want to start a podcast. Michael Dargie (29:33.634) Right. Utkarsh Narang (29:34.273) And I said, I can have those 45 minutes, but first answer the question, why do you want to start a podcast? Because it's a, it's a long journey. It's not a sprint. It's not that you'll release 10 episodes and you'll be Steven Bartlett. It's not that you'll be Jay Chetty tomorrow. You would want to, and you can aspire to be, but it's not going to be a one week hustle. It's going to be more long-term. So what's going to keep you in it? What's going to allow you to have. Michael Dargie (29:40.234) Yes. Michael Dargie (29:49.11) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (30:02.796) Michael on the show and have conversations with him deeply, thoughtfully and all of that. And I'd love your example because I'd love for you to talk about that because you've done nine seasons and then ask yourself these questions, which Michael said, what do you do? Who do you do it for? Why do you do it? And why should they care? Love these questions. I love these questions. I think they are. They are. they did. Once you ask these a once you create the clarity, I think around the brand. Michael Dargie (30:22.965) Yeah, I think they're important. Utkarsh Narang (30:33.366) And as you were saying, the colors, the typography, all of that will emerge from that. Once you have clarity on your own self from these, the alignment, the courage, the clarity, the ability for your brand to show up and and and build that memorable, memorable life. That's what you and I were talking about. Michael Dargie (30:37.153) Yeah. Michael Dargie (30:48.641) Yes, absolutely. Yeah, if you don't do the work below the surface, can't... Not that you can't enjoy it. You're always going to have above the surface. It's just I don't think it's going to be as impactful. I don't think it's going to be as memorable. Like from a brand perspective, you're not going to find the life by Mary if you don't do the work below the surface. Right. If you're you're Nike, you're never going to find the there is no finish line. Utkarsh Narang (31:09.58) Yeah. Yeah. Michael Dargie (31:17.153) And from, you know, my my own personal thing is do cool and weird shit with cool and weird people. I will I would never find that if I didn't understand myself below the surface. Utkarsh Narang (31:30.382) Slow it down, what does that mean? Do cool and weird shit with cool and weird people. And where did that come from? Michael Dargie (31:37.282) It just showed up one day. Like it was I'm trying to live an authentic life And I shouldn't say trying I just I'm living my authentic life whatever that is and it's hair warts all the all the stuff and What I discovered along the way is I like to do cool and weird shit with cool and weird people and it sort of became this mantra Where am I doing that? Like I met you you're a cool and weird, dude Utkarsh Narang (32:05.774) Thank you. Michael Dargie (32:06.601) We've done some we've done some shit together with it's just like, my God, and we will do more in the future. And I find that that's what brings me happiness, joy, clarity, focus, because I don't care for ordinary that much. Utkarsh Narang (32:26.552) But it's hard, right? And I'm being very honest and transparent here because, know, someone could be listening to us and say, Michael, it's because you figured out man, but it's really hard. And you can have all the successes and whatever, whatever that success might look like for me or for you. But on the hard days, how do you, how do you strike forward? Michael Dargie (32:35.356) No. Michael Dargie (32:50.017) That's a great question. I mean I've I have more hard days and easy days if I'm honest You know, I think that a motorcycle helps. There's nothing I am a very Zen being. I don't necessarily like thinking about yesterday or what can happen tomorrow. I really like the moment. So getting on a motorcycle and I have maybe too many motorcycles, but I'll get on a motorcycle ride and you're in the moment. You can't think about anything other than the moment you're in. Utkarsh Narang (33:03.022) Hmm. Michael Dargie (33:26.877) you're smelling the smells, you're eating bugs, you're existing in this fragile moment that could end at any time and I love that. That's how I get through the hard times I think. Utkarsh Narang (33:42.455) Yeah, love it, love it. I'm just, as you were saying this, was thinking of giving a prompt to chat GPT to create a thumbnail for this conversation. And my team, if you're listening, please make a note of this. Who does Zen monk that looks like Michael with a cap on a bike and in the moment. Love it, love it. All about it. Do you have days when you compare yourself to others? Michael Dargie (33:49.921) Yeah. Michael Dargie (33:56.437) you Michael Dargie (34:02.549) Yes. I'm all about it. Michael Dargie (34:12.193) Honestly, another great question. I mean, I'd lie if I said no, I don't necessarily know who I compare myself maybe to something that a person that doesn't exist that has it all together. You know, like there's an imaginary Michael that is has it all together that has all the stuff that doesn't work 80 hours a week that isn't always trying to crush it and prove that he's crushing it that there's there's maybe a future mike i compare myself to i think you know i was talking with my agent the other day like my literary agent i'm just like okay so i've got these two books one is another business book and one is a non-fiction and i'm like like i want to do that he's like good do it we can sell that But I'm stuck in this moment, which is I've got to do these things and that stuff for these clients and this to put food on the table, the roof over our heads, pay for your insurance and gas and blah, blah, blah. So I think to answer your question is future Mike is the guy who's chill and is writing his book at the next one, whatever that happens to be. Utkarsh Narang (35:23.107) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (35:30.702) Hmm. Hmm. Michael Dargie (35:34.993) is doing his another book tour. just did one this last summer on a motorcycle and I enjoyed the hell of it. I want more of that. That's all I want to do. Utkarsh Narang (35:41.654) Love it. Yeah, love it. Utkarsh Narang (35:48.623) Wow. Like the motorcycle, this vision of motorcycle. I've been, I love to run. I love to bicycle, but I've never, I've never driven a motorcycle. So that's, I don't know why that challenge keeps popping up in my head. I don't want to do that to myself, but maybe I will. Michael Dargie (36:07.296) maybe go take a motorcycle course. What's funny is, so at 18, so I'd ridden dirt bikes when I was a kid. I was, so here I am in Calgary, Alberta, Canada, and I walk up, I'm like, God, I'm 16 years old, something like that, and I walk up to a gas station. This guy's selling a 1978 Kawasaki 440 LTD custom bike. Utkarsh Narang (36:09.805) you Michael Dargie (36:33.564) It's cheap. And I had money in my pocket and I bought the bike. I just bought the bike. And my parents, to their credit, were just like, well, my dad was just like, what the fuck? You did what? But I mean, I grew up listening to him talk about he rode a motorcycle across Africa. Utkarsh Narang (36:38.53) You want the bike? Utkarsh Narang (36:47.854) Mm-hmm. Michael Dargie (36:56.478) Right? Like he went, his dad was a professor in Ghana and my dad rode motorcycles and blah, blah. So I'm just like, it's in my blood. Right? So he's just like, well, if you're to have a motorcycle, we're going to get you training. So they set me up with a training school called a driving school in Calgary. And I showed up for my first motorcycle lesson, like my first official street bike lesson. Utkarsh Narang (37:06.424) Right. Michael Dargie (37:23.04) And the guy, the instructor, his name is Ken Mowry. I'll never forget this. He goes, so have you ever ridden before? I'm just like, oh, yeah, I've ridden dirt bikes and stuff like that. He's like, all right. He goes, show me what you got. So I jump on this bike. It's like a shitty Honda CB250 whatever, like little thing. And we're up by the airport in Calgary, and I just go tearing around the track. I go through these. Utkarsh Narang (37:41.934) Bye. Michael Dargie (37:52.897) pylons, there's a dirt pile at the end and I skid into the dirt pile and do this big, you know, rooster tail coming out of it, little catwalk as I go up and I stop in front of him. And he looks at me he goes, what the fuck are you doing here? And I'm like, don't know, like my parents said I have to take motorcycle training. He goes, you should you should be an instructor. Like, and I'm like, really? He goes, Yeah, so you're like, you know what you're doing. Utkarsh Narang (38:08.11) Yeah, you don't need to. Michael Dargie (38:21.95) like let's train you how to teach other people to do it. And so then I ended up becoming like the youngest motorcycle instructor and provincial examiner in Canada because my parents gave me this opportunity and I rose to it without knowing that it was a thing to rise to. I just did what I did. And yeah, then I taught motorcycles for like seven years. That became like my summertime job. Utkarsh Narang (38:25.962) Amazing amazing so fast Utkarsh Narang (38:47.937) No. Michael Dargie (38:51.52) put on like I don't know 750,000 kilometers on a motorcycle like I've yeah taught for thousands of hours Utkarsh Narang (39:00.098) Wow. Intense 750,000. Wow. You know, as we're having this conversation, I want to kind of flip the script. So we're talking about what makes life, what makes brands, what makes stories, what makes things memorable. What makes brands boring, Michael? Michael Dargie (39:10.592) Sure. Michael Dargie (39:20.96) think it's fitting in, like just doing the status quo, the thing that just everybody else is doing. I'm a very firm believer in contrast. You know, if everybody is yelling, if you whisper, people will listen. Utkarsh Narang (39:25.454) in Utkarsh Narang (39:32.236) Hmm. Michael Dargie (39:39.752) So I think that, you know, in answer to your question, what makes things mad or like disappear is just being the same. And I also understand it's not lost on me how difficult it is for people to stand out or to be different. Like I get that because it's scary. But that is 100 % what will pop you out and you will no longer be status quo. Right. Utkarsh Narang (40:07.202) Yeah. Michael Dargie (40:09.105) And just don't be afraid of it because it's going to it might be awful at first. You might make a big mistake and people be just like, you can't do that. And then if you just keep doing it because you believe in it, people just be like, my God, I love this brand. Utkarsh Narang (40:20.942) Yeah, love it, love it. And how do you see AI impacting the brands, the stories, marketing? How is AI impacting this world? Michael Dargie (40:33.279) Great question. think that AI is really good at being your buddy to iterate and to throw shit against the wall, if you will, to tease out what might be not obvious. So I use AI regularly as a collaborative partner. And I have I've set up a whole bunch of custom GPTs for myself that do different things. Because it's very it's very important to be specific generic chat GPT five isn't going to do it for me. It's got to be trained on my stuff. It's got to be trained on me and trained on my philosophy trained on my writing even. So it can then. Utkarsh Narang (41:02.03) Yeah. Michael Dargie (41:23.263) Give me things that I might not have thought of before or can challenge me in a way that helps me break out of a cycle. Having said that, I just had a guy on my show yesterday, Jim Zub, who's a writer for Conan, if you follow that comic at all. I mean, he's a writer. He doesn't use AI. He understands story. understands humans. He understands. I don't know that AI will ever take over the 25 years of storytelling passion that he has. It can get close, but it's not going to be, it's not going to hit truthfully. It's kind of like, know, Jen Bain on stage, you know, like. Maybe AI can get close to explaining what a dog might do, but it's never going to have that moment of truth. Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (42:17.07) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (42:20.472) Yeah. Can't take it away. Can't take it away. Love it. For those who are still listening, I'm just trying to summarize from, from, being a, being a Marine mammal, wanting to become a Marine mammal biologist to, to dirt bikes, to instructing people on how to ride dirt bikes and bikes to now taking author, podcaster. I think what's standing out for me, Michael, is just this whole idea of Michael Dargie (42:26.957) Hang in there. Utkarsh Narang (42:49.646) what you said, right? I'm curious about how a podcast works. I'm going to start one. I'm curious about how a book works. I'm going to write one. And I love this idea on how we can apply this to life that if someone feels that they want to take their life from me to memorable, then the idea is don't try too hard. Just be, just be who you are. Take a deep breath. And you know, last month I went to a, to an offsite Michael. It was like some amazing folks there and the offsite was called extraordinary. Welcome to your extraordinary life and business. And as we were, we went in, you know, we all have challenges, we all have comparisons, we all have procrastinations and we all have imposters. None of us. don't think even, even Elon Musk, maybe, maybe let Elon Musk be. He might not even, he might not procrastinate, but everyone else does. I think it's important for us to understand that we are choosing to create our extraordinary lives or not. And the choice still belongs to us. And I think that is a great way to think about there is no finish line as you and I were speaking about Michael. Love it. Yeah. But as we come to the final question of this podcast, the final one, a few, few decades from now, there'll come a point when you'll, be 80 year old, eight zero. If that 80 year old Michael would come to you right now and give you like a piece of advice, what would that Michael say? Michael Dargie (43:53.181) Yeah, absolutely. couldn't, yeah, 100%. Michael Dargie (44:01.663) my gosh. Michael Dargie (44:19.671) Michael Dargie (44:23.167) move make the change. I've been I've been trying to wait for the perfect moment to move to Vancouver Island as an example. And there's no perfect moment. It's kind of like having kids. There's no great there's no perfect moment to have a kid. There's no perfect moment to take a pet into your house. There's no Trying to plan for it doesn't really make sense. So I think that if I 80 year old me will be You're supposed to be by the ocean right now. I'm landlocked I live in a beautiful place. Don't get me wrong, and I've got this beautiful studio. I've got this beautiful life I got like all the stuff but I'm being pulled to another place and I've been making excuses for why I'm not there and I think that it's 80 year old me would be like, dude Every year you're not there is a year you're not there. You know? Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (45:20.322) Yeah, love it. Thank you for sharing. So all of you who are listening to this conversation between Mike and myself, make a move. There is no perfect time to do whatever you want to choose to do. And don't get us wrong. You want to start a podcast, go start it. You want to go find a corporate job. It's amazing. You want to change careers, do it. You want to have kids, whatever that might look like for you, because we can't come into your houses and we don't want to come into your houses and have deeper conversations, but go make a move because this life is too beautiful. for us to be wasting it. Amazing. And make sure that you share this with someone who might want to listen to this. And if you're on YouTube, like, share, subscribe, da-da-da, you have to appease to the algorithm gods. But all the show notes, all the links to connect with Michael will be in the show notes. Michael, thank you so much for this conversation. It felt Zen. This conversation felt Zen. So I appreciate you for being here. Michael Dargie (45:54.847) Yes, Michael Dargie (46:16.467) I appreciate you, Ukarish. An amazing experience. Thank you. Utkarsh Narang (46:21.295) Thank