Utkarsh Narang (00:02.544) And yet, in the heart of that storm, there remained a sanctuary, an inner sanctuary, and I ran from place to place, trying to find a place, to listen to, to breathe in, to hold all noises at the gates, so that this voice may have its slot and be heard in its solitary spotlight, full amplification. Welcome to another episode of the Ignite Neurons Podcast. We started in very different way because today I have with me whose name is Meryl, but I call her Rumi's daughter because she's published a book that's called Rumi's daughter. And that's what attracted me to Meryl and have this conversation with her. She's a kindness architect. And my hypothesis is that we're going to speak about kindness. We're going to speak about Rumi's daughter and some more words from there. And then we're also going to speak about how do... We as human beings serve humanity, serve the world and make it slightly better than how we found it. Does that make sense? Am I on the right path? Meral (01:11.912) Thank you, Utkash, and what an honour and a pleasure to be here. I did not think that Rumi's daughter would return upon my founding of my company, Results of Kindness, because it came about from a completely different headspace and career. So it's lovely to hear her poetry after four years. And what an honour it is to have this conversation about humanity and kindness, something that you... So very much portray in your podcasts and in yourself in our interactions. Utkarsh Narang (01:45.36) Thank you. No, absolutely. you know, you spoke about the head and I don't know why this connection as soon as you're starting the podcast comes. This whole journey that we take from the heart to the head or head to the heart, wherever we feel, think, unless we're human at our core, it's going to be impossible to take that journey. So I think Rumi's daughter never left the room. She was right here. Meral (02:11.406) I think you're right. think she never left the room and I think it's one of the most, I would say, mistakes that when you come into your soul mission, and for me it's very much within the business world, that you let go of that soft side because you're fearful. That vulnerability, that organicism is going to make you be taken less seriously. But you bringing me back to her reminded me just how important the heart is in business, in the corporate world. spheres so absolutely she never left the room. Utkarsh Narang (02:43.568) Yeah. Amazing. the first and we're already in the deep end of this podcast conversation, but we start this podcast with this question. If that eight year old little girl, the eight year old girl who did not even know if Rumi's daughter will exist, who did not know what this world of kindness was, if she were to come and meet you right now, what kind of a conversation will emerge between the two of you? The present you and the eight year old Meral. Meral (03:16.052) I think it would be a terribly emotional one because I think that any highly sensitive child who grows up in an environment that is not so validating, that does not hold her home. it would be one where I would have to look into her eyes and tell her that everything that you consider to be a weakness or something to be scathed away from you is going to be your sole mission and that everything that you touch, see, feel and experience is going to be for the greater good of you and hopefully for the greater good of the world. So I think it would be one of reassurance. it would be one of gratitude. think that the heart that she had and the soul that she had at such a young age, which has only progressed, but I think there's an innocence and there's a beauty and there's a magnificence to that eight, nine-year-old child who was completely raw in her kindness and her love for people. And I would thank her and I would say that those core memories and that experience and that philosophy that you became so sincere and committed to has now become a movement, more than a company, more than an entity. And I would also ask for her forgiveness as well. because I think just like my core mission, which is to tell the world that kindness is the ultimate advantage, it's the innate ecosystem of flourishing, of progress, of cohesion, she needed to hear that of herself back then. Meral (05:03.146) not to lower or lessen herself, but to very much fall into her own arms and fall in love with herself and give herself permission to not deviate from her soul architecture. So I think that's how it would go about, but there would be, I think it would be a very emotional. heartfelt interaction of grace, gratitude and asking for her forgiveness, which I think many people who take on a spiritual journey, they have to ask permission to. ask for forgiveness from their inner child because we so very neglected the way that we neglect children and their insights and their input in the world we also have to ask forgiveness to our inner child who came complete and we considered it the concept her, they, him incomplete and not so prepared or not so right for the world Utkarsh Narang (06:05.008) Wow. As I'm listening to this and and it's my humble request to the listeners, this might be a slow and soothing conversation because Mary and I both like to slow down the conversation and take a few minutes to really imbibe what's been said to make sure that we are responding with the right mindfulness and approach. So I heard a few words, Merrill reassurance, gratitude and the innocence of the rawness of that. eight year old and then you said somewhere that what you saw at that time as a weakness will be your mission. What does that mean? What does it mean to call that as a weakness? Meral (06:43.566) you Meral (06:49.486) I think children are always being asked to toughen up, to feel less, to do less, to be less. And I think that that is what is the core of the problem of the world today. That we are asked to lessen our light and to lessen our philosophy and to lessen our giving. And I think that is what I meant with that, that it is so much more than just a philosophy of innocence, but it was an eight or nine year old girl who loved people unconditionally and fell in love with them the moment that she met them because she saw something in them that was delightful, that was unique and so... uniquely and so understandably and so selflessly. And I think it was it was that vitality that I have tried my best to replicate to. re-emerge into, but I think it can be difficult at times with the adult world because children have this capacity to be themselves, to think outside of the lines of logic, the containment of logic, and to create their own world rather than being a part of the world that we are in today. And I think in adult life you have to compromise, you have to fall into some lines of reality, whereas children believe that they are a universe in and of themselves and they are and they create that universe whereas I think that we fall into some kind of submission to the status quo as the more we are exposed to the world the more time we spend in the world and I think that children have their own world and they see the world themselves and the world through the universe that they have created so there was this power and Meral (08:56.078) magnificence that I didn't just experience as a nine-year-old from my inward world, but that of the world of my classmates. a lot of the time, and I always say, and the Sufis say, and it's a philosophy that I ascribe to, is that life is about holding true to the philosophy of the inner child and not allowing the world to infiltrate into that childlike purity, innocence, selflessness and humanity. So it was that rawness, was the immutable, uncompromising, relentless... love for people and for service and belief in miracle that I think that even as a kindness advocate it's difficult to do in the world because you are constantly coming up with against a lot of friction or alternatives or real problems, real issues that as a child you may not understand fully and that's what keeps you in your magic. So that's what it would be for me. Utkarsh Narang (10:09.626) We'll have to pause the episode every now and then and maybe just take a few minutes to really dive through what you said because there are so many layers to that answer. I'm going to be going to have a dialogue, but I'm going to challenge this dialogue as well, what you said is so beautiful that life's all about like holding true to that inner child. somewhere along that journey, when we grow up, the status quo, the society, the outside conditions infiltrate and lead to this challenge to that inner child. But my belief is that the inner child always stays and it's our choice if we want to allow that inner child to thrive or if we want to suppress that inner child. And that choice is something that our consciousness, our approach to our life we'll always have that choice. Is that not true? And if not, or if yes, yeah, where are you on that? Meral (11:16.076) This is fantastic, the way that it works out between us, Utkosh, because we always have these synergies and we haven't been in continuous contact. I was watching a reality TV show. because I have developed so much of my psychological instinct in terms of reading facial expressions and non-verbal cues. I'm a big fan of that. And the main character, who is notorious for many reasons, and he says, I've been darkened by time. And I think that there is something there. and you could see just how hurt and disappointed he was in himself that he had gone from this polite, sweet little gentleman to someone who can very easily commit infidelity with almost all of his romantic relationships. And it just got me thinking, and it's also related to kindness as well. Why are people unkind? Is it always a choice? And I believe that we can never make that. judgment ourselves and call it a choice because the things that people go through, the things that people experience on this material plane are enough to split the soul into which makes it so very difficult for them to access their behavior and their actions as a conscious choice. Meral (12:50.806) And that was really the first time because it was bubbling away in my subconscious for a long time because as a child or even a few months ago before I started Results of Kindness, when people were unkind I said, how could you be unkind? It's always a choice. But actually a lot of the time it can be because of inconvenience. It can be because of a deficit. within the self because of inner fracturing from trauma, from seeing your heart be broken again and again to the point where you cannot access the intelligence or the coherence of the heart. Where there is this... inability to be in touch with your emotions, be in touch with your humanity because you have been, so to say, darkened with time and by time. So absolutely, I think that those who are the spiritual warriors will keep true and will keep earnest to the ability, the spiritual muscle of rendering it a choice and dealing with it as a choice to say, what happened to me, what I experienced, I will address the the veils and the folds of my subconscious to make the active choice to do otherwise. But so many people fail and it's not because there's something inherently wrong with them. It's that the challenges that this plane of existence gives to us, gives to some, are so great that choices fall away and people become almost, wouldn't say automatons. but so deep within their subconscious realm that active engagement, active self-awareness, a true choice becomes inaccessible to them. And I think I would not have been able to understand that or appreciate that if it were not for my background in psychology, but also having met so many people and talked to them about kindness and seeing the intention. Meral (14:55.956) But having seen that for some people their souls have been split into two or three or many fractures, that they can no longer access the same level of humanity that they were born with. And it's a terribly difficult battle. It is the most enduring battle that anyone can go through. I'm from Afghan heritage and the stories that we hear, the experiences that these individuals have, sometimes when I think of just that there is a narcissism crisis because and I said before I think to I don't know if it was in a podcast or in a conversation but in survival cultures which is where we are able to so in survival cultures there is no middle ground which is where the choice concept comes in do we have a choice can we self-regulate can we self self philosophize within ourselves you either become the prey or the predator And the prey says, I will no longer, I will never allow this to happen to someone else in my presence. The prey, which is the narcissist says, this happened to me, my soul split into two or many, and therefore I will act from a place of wounding. And it can be subconscious, it can be intentional, but for many narcissism itself is not curable. Certain traumas you cannot return from. So can we say that that is a choice or that is a point of no return due to life's extremities? Utkarsh Narang (16:32.066) As you're as you're speaking about fracturing of the soul and and the trauma that a soul goes through and how the statement that you said about that reality show, I have been darkened by time. The and I'm a visual thinker. So the vision that's coming to me right now is is almost thinking of he who must not be named. Meral (16:51.918) Thank Utkarsh Narang (16:58.978) If you're a Harry Potter fan, I'm thinking of Voldemort. And I'm thinking how he split his whole soul into these seven horcruxes, if I remember the term correctly, right? And that was by choice because he wanted his soul to survive. And so what I'm also thinking then is that if trauma is, and trauma of any kind, and there could be microtraumas and macrotraumas. So. Meral (17:00.886) Yes. Utkarsh Narang (17:25.262) Not all traumas look alike, all traumas are different and everyone goes through their own range of traumas based on what their threshold is. If we all go through that trauma and that splits our soul, do we not owe it to the inner child, Merrill? Do we not owe it to the magic that the universe has in us and beyond that we find ways to heal that inner child? And where I'm taking this conversation to is because you also spoke about spiritual warriors, which I've Meral (17:32.6) Yes. Meral (17:44.718) you Utkarsh Narang (17:54.832) highlighted on my notes and we will speak about that. Because ultimately I want this to be useful for our listeners. I want them to feel that Merle Lutkash had a conversation, parts of which I can snatch from the podcast and put into practice in my own life. changing the hypothesis slightly. We're going down this path that if you've been through trauma that has led to you and your soul be split, because now you feel that kindness is not the right path. Meral (18:01.134) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (18:24.782) that there is a part of you that does not trust others. There is a part of you that's hurt and broken. Then let's, Meral, you and I take it upon us today in the next whatever minutes. to help bring back the magic. Because I really think that this human life, it's a true gift that we have, where there is some amount of consciousness, there is some amount of karma, there is some amount of magic, there's some amount of what we do, the interactions that we have, the people that we meet. It all happens for a systematic reason, which we are not fully seeing. So if we were to help someone heal themselves from this trauma, what would you tell them to do? Meral (19:15.24) Had you asked me that question three weeks ago, would have been a very systematic, conceptual program of delivery and I would say this, and this. Utkarsh Narang (19:24.304) Hmm. Meral (19:28.362) I would say this because this is the reality coming from someone who has been relentless and deeply committed to their healing journey. And I think I mentioned my heritage. It is a heritage of much ancestral wounds and displacement and poverty and exile, Afghan and Uzbek. and therefore I have had no other choice but to be so intentional because I believe that as you said we owe it to ourselves and to the people around us to be and I believe in God so I owe it to God the universe who has given me the favor of life to do everything I can to complete the spiritual journey and die empty and live full. My advice would not be so prescriptive, it would be curiosity and openness. And I speak directly to those who are listening and watching. You will have the most unique, heartbreaking, enlightening, livening, inspiring experience is so unique to you that it is your spiritual fingerprint upon this realm. And so I would say, in order to allow the healing in, let it become something that takes care of itself through your openness, through your curiosity. When something is happening to you, and it's so common sense, I read it so much, Otgash, because I was like, and I didn't really like it, I thought, you know, and the phrase is, don't ask why this is happening, ask what is it teaching me? And I really sidelined that as too simplistic. But for me, being open and being curious, not accepting that this may have no logic right now in hindsight, but in the long term, this breaking, this opening, these unfair circumstances has a part in my overall life architecture, in the being and the reason for why I'm here. Meral (21:42.858) And if you do not feel capable of healing, because healing is a very difficult, very ambitious, sometimes romantic term that we use, I invite you and I ask you to be curious. What is this? What is this teaching me? how can I listen? You don't have to process it. Your mind and your subconscious will do it for you. That's why healing that is somatic healing that is at the subconscious level works so well for people with complex trauma. But to be open, to listen, to process, and one other thing I would say, is to wait and see what comes of this. Let the time pass to enable you to process the gravity of what happened. I think that in the Western lens we think, right, let's address it now. Let's medicate on it. Let's do surgery upon the wound the moment that it appears. But sometimes there is so much resistance of the soul to that because the soul and the mind, the subconscious, whatever you want to call it, says this is a part of a greater architecture, a greater ecosystem. Let it build, be curious, sit around it, observe it. But understand that the ecosystem will eventually take care of itself and your greatest, the greatest thing that you can do is to allow it, be curious, be patient. And one other thing, listen, because something that I've found and it's very easy to become, to wallow in. Meral (23:27.538) not wallow I would say, that's an unkind term, but to very much allow yourself to be bathed and submerged by a sense of self-pity which is extremely understandable, but to listen to the way that the universal God or source brings people to you as a message, as a saving, moments, words, letters, coincidences, they are a healing if you were to listen. to those experiences. I'll give a very small example. Yes, so I, when I converted my degree to psychology from law, and this is a fantastic story and I get goosebumps thinking about it, I was, I sort of asked myself, you you're 25 Meryl, you you've had a career in law, you're going into the unknown, what will you make of yourself because even though you've come into psychology, you and I both are sort of speaking to myself that You are not a traditional practitioner. The creativity within you requires a new concept, something different that you've been denying. This was the actual conversation within myself. And this is the conversation that we're always being spoken to, we're always being helped, we're always being shaped, if only we had curiosity and openness. and just giving life a chance, giving life the possibility. And I fell into a deep state of worry and doubt and anxiety. Meral (25:08.65) Asking myself, where do I fit? Because I've told my parents I don't want to be a lawyer anymore. I have to find my calling in psychology. I know it is, but it's not quite traditional, being a traditional practitioner. What am I going to do? Because they've believed in me, but I'm not, I need to get on with my life. Two months later. I had a dream about kindness that I was standing on a mountain and I had the word kindness and I was holding up the flag of kindness and people were listening and I thought nothing of it. I don't know how many months later I think it was... It wasn't months, it was a year or so later. I met a business mentor at a networking event and he said, can I look through your things? Can I look through your work? And I sent him my thesis, sent him my poetry book and he said, you do know you've been campaigning for kindness your entire life. Have you considered making a profession out of this? And I said, no. and I spent five months in resistance to that, had I listened, had I been curious, had I seen that this was that pain, that worry, that guilt of perhaps letting down my parents, letting down myself, it was an essential part of the architecture of my life. and now I live and breathe kindness as I did before but in a much more official way. So I would say do not focus on healing. It's a buzzword that doesn't serve a tired soul any good. But be curious, be open and give life a chance. Let's start there. Utkarsh Narang (27:05.456) This is a deliberate pause. We're not, we're not, timing this in, but I'm just looking at what I've noted down. Die empty and live full. I think that these are, these are at least those, the most powerful four words that I've seen, heard in a long time. Die empty and live full. So I love that. You somewhere were speaking about how sometimes trauma gives you a wound and really opens you up. And I don't know why Rumi's quote, I think it's Rumi's quote where he says that wound is from where the light enters you. And so I don't know why that was coming to me. So I've noted that down. And just this idea that you're saying about curiosity and openness, it seems so simple. It seems like anyone and everyone should be able to be curious and be open. Meral (27:44.748) Yes. Meral (27:53.688) Mm. Utkarsh Narang (28:03.724) and listen more. But I see less and less of this in the world. And we can attribute it to the noise on the outside. We can attribute it to technology. We can attribute it to the way information is being spread around the world about anything and everything from the positive to the negative. And I was having this conversation with my wife and kid, the elder one, where we were talking to him about something that he wants to eat on a regular basis. And you were telling him that this is not good for your health. And you were giving him ideas that this is why we say that it's not good for your health. And he in five minutes came back saying, this is why this is good for my health. And so for everything in the world, there is the positive impact of it and then there's the negative impact. So that is what I'm trying to say is that the noise is very high. So in that noisy world, how do people listen? Meral (28:45.614) you Meral (29:05.294) That's a fantastic question and you're absolutely right. Just like in everything, it's always the difficult things that are easy to do, procrastination. Think about it, just how difficult procrastination is because it serves no long term result. It is the highest form of self-sabotage. And yet people do it relentlessly rather than giving five minutes to the screen. Five minutes of work. It's, I would say, part of the human. It's part of our human architecture. It's part of being human. And that's what it is. I would say, how do people listen is to give up and give in. And how do we do that? Give up. on what is not working, all these elaborate schemes, all these elaborate techniques that we have created. Let's talk about avoidance. Now, in high trauma cultures, where there has been such high levels of war and displacement and political and social instability, avoidance has now become a cultural tradition. And I see it very much in my communities as well. How much has avoidance cost you? Let's just think of it that way. If you think of it on a benefit and loss basis. Avoidance, let's say for example, someone is experiencing uncomfortable feelings. They will go out, they will distract themselves, they might listen to lots of music, they might consume lots of food, they might fall into addictions to be able to numb themselves from that avoidance versus five minutes of intentional processing. Meral (31:03.468) the cost of one and the time that it takes and just how much it takes from you of one compared to the other. If we think of it in that way, it's the most common sense thing. But I think as you said, it's something that we don't do. And to drown out or to return from the noise, I would say give up on what is of what is not working for you. If you cannot give up from it, step back from it a little and give yourself a bit of peace from, I would say, the self-flagellation that we cause ourselves through overthinking, through overdoing, through overstimulation. And give in to one message that you keep getting sent through your soul and through your intuition. Utkarsh Narang (31:41.188) Yeah. Yeah. Meral (31:58.676) give it one chance. That's why I said openness and curiosity, not as an active practice where we create masterclasses around it, but a first instinct, a first and solely one moment in the day where you just listen to one piece of quiet advice that your soul is giving you. Not the loudness, not the jagged, fearful approaches or the fearful signs that the body is giving you when we come from a place of trauma and despair and just in a chaos. Listen to one message and contemplate over that return to that almost like an affirmation. So my soul said to me many weeks ago, you're not a consultant Meryl, you're a thought leader and you're an educator. I gave it one chance and I played it in my head because I'm not coming from this person who has reached enlightenment, Utkaj. I am coming from someone who is living and trying this philosophy every day and I'm speaking to myself as much as I'm speaking to yourself and those who are listening. Utkarsh Narang (33:06.512) Thanks Meral (33:16.322) but give yourself one chance. And I gave myself one chance to listen. And then I rewrote my company biography. And now when I wake up in the morning and I work on results of kindness, it's not a strain, it's not a burden, it's not someone trying to be someone that they're not. So I would say start with one. Utkarsh Narang (33:36.538) Yeah. Yeah. Meral (33:38.082) Because I think that when we approach a world that is suffering with lots and lots of things to do, it goes into one ear and comes out the next. So that's what I would say. Utkarsh Narang (33:50.156) it. I 100 % agree with everything that you're saying and here's that that practicality that I want to bring for the listeners because it might seem what Meral and I talking about right now is is far-fetched. What does it mean to give up and give in? But look at this in this way if and what Meral you were saying I think the words that were resonating for me was that if there is lack of internal alignment, if there is dissonance, and not resonance between who you are and what you're doing, then that's a painful place to be. And that's what you shared by saying that I'm not a consultant, I'm a thought leader and educator. And when you start to look at the world from that lens, then it feels right on the inside and it feels right on the outside with what you're doing. But I think the challenge that the world, and I'm completely assuming this because I'm not speaking to the listeners directly, but my assumption is, that because we are always engrossed in content, because we are seeing a lot of highlights of other people's words, whether that's through Instagram, whether that's through LinkedIn, whether that's through whatever, it seems that the other person always has the right kind of life. And someone very early on the podcast said that, Utkash, the grass is not green on the other side. The grass is green where you water it. Meral (35:15.662) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (35:16.536) And so it's up to you what you do about your side of the grass. So that's one. Second, if you wake up in the morning and feel free to add wherever you feel you want to add a layer or what I'm sharing does not land where we want it to land. If you're waking up any morning and saying, I don't like my life, then something needs to change. And I think that change will come to you. Meral (35:32.706) Sure. Utkarsh Narang (35:44.964) with what Meryl saying, which is to give up and give in. And Meryl, the prereq of that to me is find moments to sit in silence because the soul whispers. The soul is not going to shout at you. The soul is not on Instagram. The soul does not have a LinkedIn account. The soul is not going to send you an email. And so the soul needs space to whisper to you what it is seeking, to whisper to you what it knows you should be seeking because soul has the magic. And just because we don't create that space, we are unable to listen to the soul. What do think? Meral (36:21.504) I love what you said and I think that sometimes when you want so much good for people who are listening, you will give them what is in your heart. But I think people are still looking for that practical advice and I think therein is also the issue that we are looking for something that is digestible. but sometimes what is digestible is not going to infiltrate deep enough. So this is a very complex issue, but we are seeking something that is digestible for something that is so oceanic from within. But I think if we were, I think I see where the, I can feel the instinct of perhaps there is something practical to be given. I'm neurodivergent. And I have found, and this is a confession I wrote into my journal, do not be so in the world, Meryl. Your originality will fade. We are always connected and therefore not so much in the substantial sense, but we are always peering into other windows of existence. are, none of us are actually looking into ourselves. We're always looking at what is around us rather than what is within us. And that is what is feeding the problem. And so for me, I've made some rituals where, for example, if someone is very similar in terms of their work, I do not look at their work. I support them. But I do not do, and I think this is where kindness is a very interesting enterprise. You should not be looking at your competitors in this arena. There's no such thing as competition in this arena anyway. But for me, I've found, or perhaps it's specific to me, the more in the world I am, the less I can serve it. There's something there that I'm still... Meral (38:19.798) looking into and I'm still trying to figure out how much can I be in the world and still contribute to it and I would say the most practical thing I would say is please limit and be intentional with your social media. Please understand that the more you are regulated into other people's lives the more you deviate from your own. And I think that that is the most, it's so difficult to do, can understand that. But it's very much saved me because you can become very self-conscious or you may feel that you have nothing to offer because every thought has ever been thought. And if you are someone who's very self-aware and very self-conscious and that's what social media is making us, you will consistently feel as if your voice does not matter. Your ideas do not matter. there is so much IP around that you're going to end up infringing it. And I think that is where the difficulty is. And I think that that is probably the solution. And I think in terms of the idea of the grass is never green on the other side, it's where you water it. How will you know if you don't give yourself the chance? How will you know that actually perhaps... It was your own vision that needed to be cleansed to see that you already have a lush garden within you and around you. How do we not know that? And I think another thing I would add is that I've worked with the leaders, perhaps not so consistently and directly as others, but I have worked with them. I've had good bosses and not so good bosses, great managers and not so great managers. And something that I've noticed is that in this noise, Meral (40:16.21) Leaders feel the need to constantly be looking into other windows, making sure that their company, their product, their service is great. of course, competition is great for business, but it's terrible for self-esteem and it's terrible for excellence in quality. And that's why in the Inner Leadership Programme that I've developed, I focus so much on inner stillness. for leaders and for disconnection because leaders are remarkably special people. They have been given this ability to be responsible over others and you cannot do that if you do not acquire your leadership fingerprint, your leadership blueprint that is yours and that's why it's such a strange, very fine balance between being in the world and creating your own and you can only do that if you separate the two and you are so... I call it soul fidelity in my courses. So it's about being loyal to the inner compass, but also being out in the world to be able to navigate where you are. And I'm still finding that balance, but I truly believe that if you are here for impact, and we all are, I'm a big fan of Doctor Who and the thing that, it's a sci-fi TV show, it's the longest running sci-fi show in the world. and it's hard not to become emotional to repeat this line. In 900 years of time and space, I've never met anyone who was unimportant. So for us to realize who we are and to be unapologetically and indominantly ourselves, Meral (42:07.67) we have to find the balance that works for us between being in the world and watching the world and embodying our own. And for me, because of my susceptibility, perhaps because of my emotional sensitivity, I have to be within myself 90 % of the time and 10 % of the world out in a plane of visibility just to get the mission of kindness through. Utkarsh Narang (42:36.538) You're so kind because what you started this conversation with where you said that, yes, I'm trying to bring this to those micro nuggets almost, which people can apply into their lives. But I think what you said was very apt, which is that this is an ocean of complexities that we are traversing together. And for us to hope and imagine that this can be made digestible in an in a single hour of us having a conversation and change things for the world is not going to be that easy a path. So I agree with that. And then I loved everything that you shared after this. And then this quote that I've not met anyone in 900 years who's unimportant. That is so beautiful. I think the other thing that just struck this word that you use unapologetically, this I have this. this fascination with this word, right? Because we all... deserve to and crave to be our unapologetic selves. But again, the challenges of the world make it so hard for us to be like that because we keep losing that resonance that we have in who we are and who we want to be. And it's an ongoing challenge. It's I think it's to sit with these conversations for a longer period of time and then let them let them allow you to whisper, allow you to listen to the whispers of the soul that will then, I think with each individual, they'll have a different story to tell after they listen to this kind of an episode. Meral (44:19.63) I hope so and I would say Utkash, it's something that I have come up with which is inner hygiene. the more you return, so let's say you have an entire day of connecting with others, let's say it's a networking event. Let's say it's a networking event and... There's people with lots and lots of ideas, lots and lots of different energy forces and energy fields that you're interacting with. Inner hygiene or the practice of inner hygiene is returning back to yourself and recalibrating, re-centering whenever you have heavy energy exchange. And that reminds you of who you are constantly. in a sea of what we can see as understand as energy displacement. Because crowds and collectives of people are great, but somehow the self disappears. And perhaps I'm so staunch in this, I'm so, so big on this because kindness, as I say many times, a lot of the time I say, kindness is a journey of becoming. A lot of kind people who come into their light, who come into their strength, many of them begin as nice, conforming people-pleasers. And throughout their lives, they build the sense of self of others. But who do they neglect the most? Themselves. And when I did my inner child work, the greatest thing, the greatest breakthrough that I had, was giving her what we say in Farsi, wasn or vazen, I think it's in Hindi. Her existence disappeared because of how much she poured into the existence of others. And that recalibration for me on a daily basis reminds me that I exist, I matter, I feel, and I have needs. And I think that you can be the most Meral (46:37.75) self-loving person, but if you do not consistently return to yourself, you may end up serving yourself in other ways, but are not truly serving yourself. It's what you think you should be doing from a place of survival or from place of competition. but it's not who, you need and who you are and how you need to be according to that. So that is an inner hygiene practice that I feel compelled to do, especially when there is high levels of energetic intermingling and exchange of ideas, because do not allow yourself to be forgotten in that noise. And it's not something that is this interesting practice where you go in into a programme and you leave transformed. It's a constant endeavour to listen and to see the invisible soul in moments where it can be forgotten. And it's a lifelong, this is a, we will be doing this for as long as we live. We will be returning back to and acknowledging the face of the self within for as long as we live. And I think those who do. will end up dying empty and living full because then they'll be able to say for certain that I lived according to who I really am. And I always say as well that when you live according to what you want to be or what you think you ought to be, you live another person's life. But when you live according to the trajectory of your soul, You have completed your legacy and I can tell you, as someone who's always had a very interesting relationship with the concept of happiness, for neurodivergent individuals, our joy and our happiness is different to the standard one. Meral (48:38.666) Even though results of kindness is very, very new, I can tell you would go heart to heart that I have never felt more vital and more joyful than giving myself full permission and renewing that full permission every day in living this path. And it doesn't even matter to me how commercially successful this is. Of course, it's supposed to be because it will help organizations and individuals. It has to be for that end. but I have never felt more joy than I have in true fidelity to my soul and I want that for every single person on earth. Utkarsh Narang (49:19.002) So many mirror neurons are getting ignited as we are having this conversation because I think just this idea that you spoke about inner hygiene, it's like brushing your teeth, right? You would do that hopefully twice a day, but at least once a day. And if you do it twice or once a day, you're taking care of your oral hygiene because that's important to you. Hopefully you will take a bath every day, but hopefully every alternate day to take care of your personal hygiene. And then we forget to do anything about our inner hygiene. We keep going through this motion of life, trying to be the best manager, the best parent, the best friend, the best son, daughter, sibling, spouse, whatever that might look like. But we forget to look at the human, the soul. And you're going one level deeper. Maybe just being a good human being is phase one, which then again is driven by the soul. but how you take care of your inner hygiene and make sure that you work on it throughout your existence because that's the only way to die empty and live full. Meral (50:25.454) you Utkarsh Narang (50:27.268) And it's a journey. It's a very beautiful long journey. And we should feel that if anyone who's listening to this right now, we are at about the 51st minute. Wow, it's been 51 minutes. I didn't realize this. If anyone's listening right now, and if all they can do as a result of this conversation is to sit with themselves a few minutes and just try to listen to that soul, I think our job will be done well. What do you think? Meral (50:55.694) I think it's the recipe for world peace. It is that fundamental. And I have seen it in my own life and I've only really come into practicing my own philosophy fully because of course, in order to be able to do that, we have to get rid of some of the barriers and the blockages that come with visibility, that come with permission, because you will ruffle feathers. you will be seen and you will be... This is not a journey where you will come into your light and the world will embrace you. No, you will embrace yourself. Whether the world does, that's an alternative thing. But soul fidelity. One moment to listen to one thing that your loyal... insistent, persistent friend of a soul has been telling you meditate on that one thought and that will re-center you. And I think we talk about working on the soul and I think you absolutely logically that makes sense to say, but it's about allowing, not so much working. I think we've all worked enough. And I found that regardless of how much I have worked intentionally, and we have to, and I think this is not my quote, but this is a quote from, I think it's a very prominent author, but they said, do your duty and hand the rest over to God. And so miracles and openings. Utkarsh Narang (52:11.728) you Meral (52:36.268) very less of the time comes from our intentional direction. It comes from the reception of the universe, the intermingling of the universe's frequencies with the inner compass within. And our body has been made material to be the vessel through which these two elements come into materialization. That is why it's material. That's why it decomposes upon our departure. it's a vessel it's not the end itself. Utkarsh Narang (53:10.896) Love it, love it. As we come towards the close of a beautiful conversation, we could go for hours, but we've decided to cap the podcast to one hour so that we can probably do podcast episode two with you. If we now go a few decades into the future, Merrill, and from that eight-year-old little girl who you're seeking forgiveness of, who you're having those beautiful conversations, emotional conversations around innocence. Meral (53:24.118) I would love that. Utkarsh Narang (53:38.842) to now we go to that 80 year old future self, the eight zero year old future self. If she were to come there right now and have a conversation, what would she say? Meral (53:54.902) I hope this does not sound too romantic or arrogant, but I truly hope that she says thank you. Meral (54:08.846) And I hope that she, that I do her, I do her soul justice and her arrival into old age justice so that she can say thank you for sticking through and keeping true to kindness. and to delivering what I was sent here to do so that my soul can sleep easy. And for the 80-year-old you to say thank you to you, I think is the ultimate win. If there is such a thing as winning, I would say that is the win. Utkarsh Narang (54:59.76) Beautiful. No, no, no, no, it is not simple. Well, it's not simple. If if if a thank you from an eight year old would be simple, then that would be a recipe for world peace as well. But it's really hard to achieve that. But I can say thank you to you for your time and the conversation that you've just had. And I'm just going to summarize a few things. You spoke about how kindness is the ultimate advantage. Meral (54:59.819) I know it's very simple, it's a very short answer. That's it. Thank you. Meral (55:28.526) Mm. Utkarsh Narang (55:28.846) You shared with us this beautiful quote that how I have been darkened by time. We spoke about spiritual warriors briefly. We spoke about the inner child and how the inner child grows from age to 80 and the purpose of life, it almost makes me feel very thoughtfully and beautifully so, is die empty to live full. Give up and give in and listen to that soul's fidelity. To anyone who's listening on a podcast platform, share this with someone who you think would enjoy this conversation. If you're on YouTube, appease to the algorithm gods, like, share and subscribe. Leave a comment if you enjoyed this conversation between Merrill and myself. keep working on that inner hygiene because your soul deserves it. Thank you, Merrill, for your time. I appreciate it. Meral (56:20.472) Thank you so much, Utkarsh. I just have to say that many speak of kindness, but I have to say that the platform that you have created, the person that you are, the interactions that we've had, it's been an honor to interact with you, to know you, and to be invited onto a platform that is a kind platform. And your leadership, your work, everything that you are encapsulates what I am trying to do in the world, which is to spread kindness. So it's been my truly exclusive honour and a privilege and thank you from the bottom of my heart. Utkarsh Narang (56:55.714) resonate each one of those words and thank you for being here. This is Utkarsh and Meral signing off.