Utkarsh Narang (00:00.771) Welcome to another episode of the Ignited Neurons podcast. Like I've started to do in the last few episodes, today I also have a hypothesis for you. My hypothesis is that by the end of this conversation between Mel and myself, we would have spoken about building authentic personal brands, tattoos, mental health, and life itself. And so if you're someone who in any way on any day feel like that you've succeeded in all respects, but you feel that there's this underlying sense of anxiety, some level of addiction to your laptops, which Mel and I were just speaking about, then this episode is just for you. Hey Mel, how are you? Welcome to the episode. Mel Yu (00:39.052) Thank you so much for having me. We've been looking forward to this one for a while. So really excited to dive in. And I think from our original conversation, I'm an open book, you're an open book. So let's see where this conversation goes. Utkarsh Narang (00:51.151) amazing. Love having two open books and sharing with the world. You know, the first question, Mel, that we start this podcast with, it just kind of, I've always seen 15, 17 episodes down the line that it always puts us in the deep end. And the question that I have for you is that if that eight-year-old little girl, eight-year-old Mel growing up wherever she was, and I don't have insight into that, so it's all unscripted. But if that eight-year-old girl were to come to you right now and have a conversation with you, what do you think will emerge through that conversation? Mel Yu (01:21.462) eight year old Mal was actually quite emotionally aware I think based on her upbringing and I think when the most formative years are between zero to seven so coming out at eight years old I think she will be asking me questions around what the world would look like for her, whether she would find I think happiness that's been a recurring theme. as I've kind of grown up into my adult self. And it would be around relationships and happiness and what, yeah, whether I'd find love. I've always been a hopeless romantic, but I think she'd also be super proud of the woman that is in front of her. So if she was looking at me, I think she'd be very shocked at, yeah, the person that I've grown up and become. Utkarsh Narang (02:15.855) Fascinating. What makes you use the word shock? Mel Yu (02:20.93) Because I think entrepreneurship was never on the cards for me. Looking back, maybe in hindsight, there were a few clues. I was always very in leadership roles or even in primary school, I was in the primary school, like captain, junior school council kind of leadership teams. And then throughout high school, I was also in quite a lot of leadership roles. Always want to put my hand up and take on the challenge as a school captain or a performing arts lead role, something like that. but I never thought I would run my own business. I don't think I ever really set out with that intention, even though growing up, my dad owned a series of Chinese restaurants, we're immigrants from Hong Kong. And so coming here, we had a line of family restaurants. So even though I saw my dad and my grandpa working for themselves and running a business, I never saw them as entrepreneurial. feel like, that's fascinating to look at the difference between a business owner. Utkarsh Narang (02:55.279) Mm-hmm. Mel Yu (03:20.204) and an entrepreneur. But yeah, I just think the word shocked would be, what do you mean? You work for yourself and you have staff and you have teams and you create these events and brands. I think that's something that would definitely catch her by surprise. Cause she'll be like, what we always wanting to be a psychologist, which was originally what my background is. So life has a very interesting way of just maneuvering and panning. Utkarsh Narang (03:43.311) Hmm. Mel Yu (03:47.712) out the way that it needs to unfold. And I think for all of us, if we look back and take a moment and think about our eight year old self, I think all of us would be really proud of the person that we've become. Utkarsh Narang (03:58.543) That's so powerful and you know, I also wonder, it's the eight year old Mel that I think is much more kinder to us now than what our present self is to us. Does that make sense? Mel Yu (04:10.668) Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think as we become adults as well, we're our own worst critic, aren't we? Or we're always us versus us in the mirror or things like that. How do I be better? How do I perform better? But yeah, and especially in this day and age, how do we instil a bit more kindness or how we would speak to a friend? We should speak to ourselves for sure. Utkarsh Narang (04:31.885) Yeah. Such a powerful technique. It's so simple to do that. But I think I've used this with my coachees time and again, where if you are right now critical of yourself, and if you were to step into the shoes of a friend who's going through this, you'll be so much more kinder. But let me go back to what you shared. So you spoke about finding happiness and relationships. Can you kind of double click on that? do you have, how have you seen happiness and relationships come together for you over the years? Mel Yu (04:52.578) Yeah. Mel Yu (05:03.064) they've only become more and more important, this pursuit of happiness, but I'm gonna use a synonymous word, but fulfillment, really ensuring that we're fulfilled in the things that we do, in the projects that we do, in the mission that we're on, and relationships are everything. To the core, I think even entrepreneurship is a relationship with others and a relationship with self, and our life's purpose is really about our relationship with self and others and the impact that we have on the world. Should we choose to do that? And so at an early age, I was, like I mentioned, already fascinated with relationships because my parents divorced when I was three years old and it wasn't the most pleasant experience. As a Chinese family, I think a lot of people can relate if they're an Australian born Chinese or an American born Chinese is mental health isn't really talked about in Asian cultures and communities. And so when things like a divorce happens and a child has early bouts of depression or confusion, We don't really talk about mental health. It's not a thing. And we sweep it under the rug and we just get on with it. And that's a historical thing. Mental health and to the extreme suicide has been seen as a shame on the family or it brings up things that you don't want to necessarily talk about. And pride is a huge part about Asian communities and how you're represented within the family and then within the community. And so for me, I've just always been fascinated about relationships, which is how I entered psychology. I knew I wanted to be a psychologist from my earliest pieces of writing. I was like in grade one or grade two, and it would be drawing pictures saying that I'm going to be a psychologist. And most people might be like a firefighter, a policeman. But I knew about psychology because again, from my upbringing, I just was like, why do people think the way that they do or why are people like this? Or how can I express myself? I was quite an emotional kid growing up and Utkarsh Narang (06:31.951) Mm-hmm. Mel Yu (06:56.948) And through learning and understanding relationships, it's really shaped me to be in the industries that I am now. So it's critical. Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (07:03.737) powerful. Yeah, that's so fascinating how, a young child, you were already kind of just just imagining to be a psychologist is is a leap, I think, for a young child. So we'll speak more about that. You know, I come like, I read this research on happiness, where I think the researcher said that it's like we're on the happiness treadmill, where we can keep running. And we don't kind of pause and step down. Because once you achieve one mountain, or you kind of scale one peak, Mel Yu (07:15.235) Isn't it? Utkarsh Narang (07:33.505) a bigger peak appears. so for listeners, I want to kind of double down on happiness as a whole. And you spoke about fulfillment in truest terms, what and what makes you happy Mel? What is your definition of seeking happiness and fulfillment? Mel Yu (07:49.89) I think when you're living in alignment to your values, and for me, it comes down to happiness and fulfillment looks different for all of us, and so does success. And until you do the inner work and reflect on what it is to be happy for yourself, then you're always gonna be chasing, chasing, chasing. And as we kind of, as time speeds up, as we grow older and we're a bit more aware of this construct, I think... slowing down to speed up has been more critical than ever, which is something we've just talked about offline about taking your not bringing the laptop on the holiday or taking a breath and actually slowing down to get back to this grounding of what makes us happy. Utkarsh Narang (08:22.883) Yeah. Mel Yu (08:33.742) And that can look different for all of us, but for me, I really enjoy like a good read of a book, going out in nature, going on a long hike, spending quality time with my partner, things that we often take for granted, but when we can be really present in those moments, I think that's where you feel ultimate happiness. Now it's interesting this idea of happiness because happiness is essentially an emotion, right? So, and emotions are energy in motion. So they're always fleeting. I don't know if you can stay in a state of happiness at all times because that's also not experiencing the whole human emotion and all of the spectrum of life that makes it so colorful and interesting because the opposite of happiness is sadness. And now if you would always stay in happiness, I don't know if you necessarily would appreciate even what the state of happiness would be if you don't actually feel anger, frustration. anxiety, all these kind of other different emotions, stress. It's about experiencing all of it, which why I said the word fulfillment. I like using the word fulfillment because it's a bit more of a, okay, I can feel these certain types of emotions, but as I'm feeling these emotions, I can still feel fulfilled in life. Whereas happiness is a fleeting emotion and I don't actually believe that we, it's sustainable or ideal to just be happy all time. Utkarsh Narang (09:45.135) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (09:53.155) Yeah, yeah, that's so powerful. And I'm seeing the psychologist, psychologist within you jump out as you're taking us through this idea of emotions and fulfillment. And I think my relationship with happiness has been that it's just, it's just the human experience that gives me a lot of joy and lot of happiness. And ultimately, when it aligns with who I am as a person and what I get to do on a daily basis, like having this conversation with you, that to me gives me in the moment happiness. And if I do this over time, that hopefully leads to fulfillment. So that's, that's my hypothesis. The one idea that I think I often share with the, with people and love to hear what your perspective is, is that you've got to like this idea that you spoke about slowing down, right? You got to intentionally find that time to slow down because sometimes, not sometimes actually, actually all the time life has its kind of Mel Yu (10:25.87) Yes. Utkarsh Narang (10:46.231) its ability to pull yourself into the mess of things or speed up things. And so you have to kind of be intentional. So I actually have like a monthly block on my calendar, which I just call like thinking block where for two, three hours, I don't look at my laptop, don't do anything, just spend time thinking. So that helps me kind of send to myself. Do you have certain practices that help you kind of align with your inner self, so to say? Mel Yu (11:10.796) I think especially if I'm speaking to aspiring entrepreneurs or business owners or someone even just looking at listening to this podcast, I'm making the assumption that you're already someone that is high achieving or seeking personal development and peak performance. So for people like us that are conscious or vibrating at a certain level of frequency to even be downloading a podcast, we're naturally busy people that just want to take massive action and the doing. And in this day and age, we all have Utkarsh Narang (11:32.942) Hmm. Mel Yu (11:40.672) Especially, you know, kids, babies, responsibilities, life admin, you got to do the washing, you got to fill up the car, you got to do the maintenance, you got to pay the bills, you got to do the gardening, whatever it may be, life happens. And then you've got all these milestones and the social life we're expected to do so much. And then we're going to do yoga and Pilates, we're going to look after our health and we've to have our green smoothie. Like it's just so much. It's just so much. But I actually invite people when I say slow down to speed up. Utkarsh Narang (12:05.327) Yeah, I agree. Mel Yu (12:10.634) is getting back to your core and center and go, what are the non-negotiables that make my life full? What are the non-negotiables that actually give me perspective and clarity? And you get to live life on your terms. When we say we all have the same 24 hours in a day, we do, but how we craft them, we treat it also differently. And now if we're not aware of what we're prioritizing, then we're gonna get pulled in. Every single other way or whenever someone needs us and now I'm speaking from that with lived experience And I'm sure you've had to where if you don't control your day someone else is going to control it If you don't control your time someone else is going to take it away and control it so I don't necessarily have like time blocks where like between the hours of 9 and 10 I'm doing this but what I do have that works for me is I have a set of non-negotiables that I must do within a day Utkarsh Narang (13:04.718) Hmm. Mel Yu (13:04.95) And so an example of that would be I get to go on an hour walk, an hour walk for me with my headphones in, walking the dog is a non-negotiable for me. However, whether that happens in the morning, in the afternoon or the evening, I'm fluid in that. And so these set of non-negotiables, have, I get to spend, I have to, see the language, but I get to spend time with my family or with my loved ones. Now it doesn't matter if that's morning, evening or afternoon. Utkarsh Narang (13:21.059) beautiful. Utkarsh Narang (13:26.083) Yeah. Mel Yu (13:32.908) But what it is important is that I don't lose sight of that because otherwise what are we doing all of it for? So if you reflect and ask yourself, what are your non-negotiables, whether it's fishing, riding, gym, whatever hobbies or activities that you seek, make sure that you include those because that's how you're going to reach fulfillment. Otherwise burnout happens, it's not sustainable, and you start resenting the life that you've created. Utkarsh Narang (13:50.127) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (13:56.687) You've thrown so many pearls of wisdom. I'm just taking a note of them so that I can kind of paraphrase back to our listeners. So the first idea you spoke about is something that I have a deep relationship with, which is how do you do a balance between being and doing? Because we end up doing so much sometimes that we forget how we are being. And this is something that I started to work with my coach many years ago, which helped me reflect that. Mel Yu (14:03.512) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (14:24.601) there could be a balance between being and doing and that's what we need to do because otherwise we'll be human doings rather than human beings. And I'm, yeah. Mel Yu (14:31.128) Yes, I love that phrase because it is, we've been so busy being human doings, we forget to be human beings. Utkarsh Narang (14:38.347) Absolutely. And then the second thing you shared was again powerful, which is create those non-negotiables, but in a way that there is structure to your day and then there is still fluidity so that there's a balance between that, those guardrails and still how you use those guardrails. I love that idea. And this whole idea of slowing down that I think you and I have been speaking about for the last several minutes, which I hope the listeners take away. And I'm thinking of this quote by Gandhi Mel, where he used to say, there's more to life than just to increase its speed. And whenever I think my life is speeding up in a way, becomes like a whirlwind or something that I start to kind of lose control, I think it helps me really pull back to slow down. Love the conversation and where it's going. Thank you for that. As we, as we move forward now, you spoke about mental health and even before that as an entrepreneur or even as a business owner, whatever that might look like for us, this relationship itself, how have you evolved that relationship itself? Because it does not come naturally to us, Mel. Mel Yu (15:38.51) Your relationship with self is the longest relationship that you'll ever have. And it's the only one where you will be the only person that is in the driver's seat that has full context. You'll never have full context for any other person in life, not your mom, not your partner, not your children. There's just no way that you can have full context for their life because it's their life. So when I preach this self-awareness, this level of self-love, self-care, when we talk about mental health, I'm always like, where are you, you know, have to put your seatbelt on first, you have to put your mask on first before you look after anyone else because if you are not fulfilled and happy within self, you can only. you can only give to others what you have. so I have this real beautiful message, paraphrased from the idea of with Oprah, Oprah says that you should serve from your overflow. And ever since I've kind of heard that on one of her podcasts and interviews, I'm like, wow, that's such a beautiful image where you need to fill your cup up first. And then from that full cup, when it overflows out and it's just this outpour of love, that's where you get to give all of that to others. But when your cup is depleted and you're still trying to self-sacrifice and give and give and give and I know a lot of people listening to this will have experienced that because again if you're out there trying to make a positive influence, have good intentions, you want to build impact, sometimes our tendency is to self-sacrifice and to go okay well whatever and it's also to all the people pleasers out there. I'm a reformed people pleaser myself so I'm really speaking from experience where you have to fill up your cup first. It's not just woo-woo stuff, it's not just on trend. This is a real intimate experience and relationship where you have to look in the mirror every night and when your head hits the pillow every night, are you proud of the person that you're becoming? Have you given it one more swing on your own terms? Like that's something that I'm deeply deeply passionate about. Utkarsh Narang (17:36.601) So powerful and it seems such a simple idea, but it's so hard to put into practice and it is so hard to not do this because what you said, I think this phrase that you used, serve from your overflow, I think that's such a powerful phrase and unless you yourself reach a state of overflow, how will you serve? Another idea that I've read is this consciousness where you start with me, then you look at others, so it's we, but then that leads you to build a mwe consciousness, so M-W-E. where you're taking care of your own needs and ideas and thoughts and emotions. And you're also then taking care of the extended. But again, I'm taking us back to for both of us. You know, I come from an Indian heritage where it's almost selfish to take care of yourself. It's almost selfish to put your needs first. I'm assuming and please share more how it happens when you were growing up in your own environment. How does how does someone shift that energy where it has been drilled down into us? that you have to be not be selfish, take care of the world, don't take care of your own needs. How do we make that shift now? Mel Yu (18:43.948) very, very common in Asian communities because we're a very collective society, whereas Americans, they do it a little bit different because it's an individualist society. So actually hats off to the US because they do do it a lot better than the rest of the world. Because Europeans, Asian communities, Middle Eastern communities, we are tribes. And I think historically it is about look after everyone, look after the community. And also we have this thing where Utkarsh Narang (18:58.585) Yeah. Mel Yu (19:11.532) Don't outshine people, come back to this medium line, come back to this average, come back and be in the middle. Do not overextend yourself. not, you know, Australia, huge tall poppy syndrome, right? We do have some of these things, but once you have the awareness of it and recognizing that it isn't selfish and recognizing that you serve better when... Utkarsh Narang (19:16.537) Yeah. Mel Yu (19:39.446) like we mentioned, when your cup is full, but you're a better use of society when you have all your needs met. We can't serve when it's just, you know, it's the hierarchy of needs, right? So you have your food, your shelter and all of that, and then it moves up and then it gets into enlightenment. And I love sort of that pyramid of you have to have your basic needs met because how else can you think creatively? How else do you actually Utkarsh Narang (20:05.187) Yeah. Mel Yu (20:08.856) think visually or like if you're worried about when your next meal is or if you can't pay rent, how do you forward plan? How do you look at three year, five year, six year visions or whatnot when you don't have that? And so you've got to serve yourself. You've got to be able to challenge what the status quo is. And we are slowly becoming a more conscious society, I think. And there's a lot of communities now breaking out and seeing that we can do both. Utkarsh Narang (20:34.478) Yeah. Mel Yu (20:34.846) Like it's not that it takes away from our ability to impact or influence or make a difference, but I think it's this self-sacrificing thing that doesn't actually serve us because we end up being quite bitter and resentful of the life that we've created. Utkarsh Narang (20:47.523) Yeah. Yeah. Love how all the dots are connecting in our conversation because it ultimately starts with you, how you fill your own cup, which then overflows into serving the society. And I think this idea of, and what you shared about, think I have a lot of experience of working with folks in the U S so for, for folks in the U S and especially who are American born, they have a lot of this, this idea that I need to take care of myself and this idea of self love, self care. I think Mel Yu (20:56.184) you Utkarsh Narang (21:16.975) they're more progressive on that journey. But I've again seen that Indians or Asians who migrate into the US, they still feel like it's not right to put yourself first. So think it's a journey that all of us take. As we move forward now, you spoke about this idea and I know you're a strong voice in terms of mental health and mental health for men, women and all human beings. But what's been your experience? Like where do you see... Have you kind of grappled with your own or someone you've been around? Like what has been your journey and evolution with mental health and how you speak about it now? Mel Yu (21:53.868) Mm. I think everyone has their own mental health story, if I'm really honest. And I think everyone goes through mental health struggles, challenges or adversity at some point in their life. So whether you've had it early on in your childhood or in your upbringing. So that's probably a similar story to myself having parents divorced when I was really young, having been bullied for being Asian within a very predominantly Western community during both my primary school years and my high school years, whatever that may be. Some people have their mental health story quite early. And then some people have it, they might have a very beautiful life and a beautiful upbringing, a family filled with love and hope, but then they might experience mental health struggles and challenges later in life. But either way, I just want to express that it is such a spectrum and that you are normal and wherever it is that you fit in, it's going to be a part of life. Life guarantees you the adversity, the grief, the grit, all of that. But for me, where it really, truly stemmed, was when I lost my late partner to suicide. And so I was 23 years old when I planned my 23 year old partner's funeral. And so Angus and I were together for the better of six years. He was my high school sweetheart. We were from 18 to 23, 24, just Bonnie and Clyde. It's your first love. It's your rite of passage. It's your just... everything was young love, everything was doing the first of everything for the first time. And it was not to say there wasn't any challenges because I think when you're 18 and you've just left school and you've got these clubs and partying, we were dabbling in recreational drugs, we were drinking recreationally. It was very much part of your rite of passage, I think, as you grow up and you kind of go and explore and... Mel Yu (23:47.982) the world's your oyster, so your risk tolerance when you're 18 to 23, I think is much higher than now and your brain's still developing and all these sort of things. So it was not to say that it was not without struggles and challenges, but it was my first real intense experience with love. And I'm so grateful for it, I'm so thankful for it because we were able to. do a lot of our first together, travel overseas together, buy our first cars together, get our first serious jobs together. We started getting into fitness together and going to the gym. But one night after our holiday to Cambodia, it was January 13th, 2014, and Angus had gotten really sick from traveling in a third world developing country, and he's someone that's super adventurous, and so he loves to eat. all of the crickets and the spiders and all those kind of things that they fry up on the street food. And so he was very adventurous with that and I was not. But he ended up getting quite sick. So he ended up getting like a barley belly or you know, just a sickness. And when he came back, we went straight back to work. So he was a laborer. This was a Monday and we went straight back to work. I was working in hospitality in a bistro and I remember him that day. messaging me and saying that he felt really sick, which we knew and that he was going to go to the doctors. He was going to go home early and he did do that because he did message me and then later that day he said went to the doctors. I can barely see I feel so sick. I'm going home and I didn't think much of it. So there was nothing really that was overly triggering. I finished work that day at 9 p.m. and came home and I just remember it being such a scorching hot day. And when I came home, I turned on the light and to my surprise, like, you on the left at the coffee table, there was a medical certificate. So he had gone to the doctor's that day. And so then I went upstairs and to the master bedroom and I turned on the master bedroom light. And to my surprise, he wasn't, he wasn't home. He wasn't in bed. So I thought maybe he was watching super cross with the boys. He was really into his motocross. Mel Yu (26:04.396) So I actually gave his phone a call that night. And to my surprise, I heard the phone ringing. And it sounded like it was coming from the car. So I ran downstairs and I went to check, but the car was locked. But I could still hear the source of the ringing. And the ringing sounded like it was coming from the garage. Now the car was parked in front of the garage. So I had to walk back through the house, through the laundry, through to the back door. And to my surprise, I found the source of the ringing. And that night was the fork in the road for me because I was 23 when I found out that Angus had taken his own life in our family home. And whether it was the dog barking or the ambulance sirenning or just the chaos of everyone starting to come over to the house, that night was a huge blur. But my experience with losing someone in such a traumatic way. became the fork in the road to why I advocate so heavily around mental health. And I know I went a bit dark there, probably for those listening, maybe we need to do a trigger warning around suicide before this episode. But I share so openly and vulnerably because that is what can happen to the extreme if our mental health is not taken care of. Suicide is like the... just the end of the end of the end. And I hope no one has to experience death by their own hands. I hope no one has to care for someone that is also going through suicidal ideations. But the reality is this conversation is necessary. And the reality is as a community, especially around Asian communities, we do not talk about it until it's too late. As a community, we all have a responsibility to check in on others and to check in with ourselves. And to also listen to these episodes and these podcasts and these thought leaders that have potentially gone through something that's quite traumatic so that you do not have to go through it anymore. And I built my personal brand at initially around mental health advocacy. And so for the longest time, back then when this bombshell hit our community, it's so easy to shy away and not talk about it. It, trust me, it's a lot easier to not. Mel Yu (28:30.252) talk and be so vulnerable on the internet, potentially being judged by so many people around how I storytell and how I story share. But I find that my purpose and my intention to turn my pain into purpose has far outweighed what people might say about me and what judgments they may have on me when I share my story about losing Angus to suicide. And so I know that that's probably a little bit heavy for wherever you're listening to, whether it's at the gym on your walk or... watching this podcast, but I think it's integral that this has been a part of my journey. And when I say how do you then apply this in your journey as you listen to this, is just recognizing whatever hard thing that you may be going through, there's something about mental health that we need to make sure that we're keeping healthy, keeping safe. And we were so easy to talk about physical health. It's so easy to say go to the gym, get your sleep. you know, go for a walk, get your workout in, whatever. And that's critical, but I do invite you to have look at what you're doing for your mental health. Utkarsh Narang (29:39.183) I know there's a long pause, but I'm just internalizing what you've shared and I thank you for your honesty and I know how much courage it needs Mel, even after I'm assuming it's about 10, 12, 2014, you said it's about 11 years later, but it'll still be so. almost vivid and for you. And as you were sharing that part of me is also thinking about my own experiences because my wife and that was kind of the reason why we moved to Australia because my wife because of her business and the needs that the business was putting her on her in India. She was going through fibromyalgia, depression and insomnia. And I would wake up sometimes middle of the night, 2am, 3am. to not find her next to me. And I would be devastated for a second, like what might have happened or where would she be? And luckily every time that happened, I would find her outside either in the living room walking or lying on the sofa. Or even one time I remember she was out of the house and taking a walk downstairs, was just kind of, the fear, I still feel that fear. So. Mel Yu (30:42.978) Mm-hmm. Mel Yu (30:53.612) Yeah, take these thoughts, just thinking about them. Utkarsh Narang (30:53.903) So I understand where you're coming from. It just gives, uh, and then it, it gave us the fear of losing her gave both of us the courage to actually move continents at 38 years old, 39 years old, because this is the condition I was in India for two weeks. Uh, as I was sharing with you, it is not easy to start from scratch in a new country. Uh, but we would take that leap because you want to address that. the mental health sometimes needs a switch in environment and which is what we were able to do. Having said that, there are so many who are not fortunate enough to go through that changes, to go through the shift, to have the awareness that they're going through something like that. And I feel for them because it might be that A, they're not listening to themselves, B, they don't have someone who will listen to them and C, then there's this idea, right? put it on the rug, you will be okay. There's nothing. Why are you saying like that? There's nothing at some. And in your experience, how, how do you influence such a large shift in society? Because as Asians, uh, just this idea of, I'm also like, I'm a little bit all over the place right now because my brain is still thinking about all you've gone through and still trying to speak and make this conversation coherent and valuable to our listeners. But how do you shift this, uh, this norm that mental health is something not to be spoken about. And one thought that is also coming, which I want to share before you start sharing, is that this is something that cannot be measured, right? You can get your blood test and you know what's your level of hemoglobin, what's your level of cholesterol. You can get your x-ray done and look at the bones and blah, blah, But how do you really assess what someone's going on the inside? Because I don't know if there's a metric to that. Mel Yu (32:46.794) Yeah, and a very great point. We go to the GP, just like Angus did the very day that he chose to take his own life, because we have a physical symptom. We feel sick, we're vomiting, we've got high fever, I've got a broken arm, you know, please doctor, please GP help me. Very easy fix because we can see it. Mental health is mentally inside of us and we can't see it. And often, even when we do a lot of mental health first aid and training, Utkarsh Narang (33:09.379) Yeah. Yeah. Mel Yu (33:14.53) There can be physical signs and there can be behavioral signs, but a lot of us also, the opposite can happen, which is we mask it so well. I use Robin Williams as an example. Robin Williams, the actor that made everyone laugh, everyone happy. You can't watch Mrs. Doubtfire and not have a big smile on your face. And that very person that gave so much love and impact and happiness and laughter to the world took his own life. Utkarsh Narang (33:28.257) everywhere. Mel Yu (33:42.54) And so when we say, fill your cup up first, it's not because it's living proof that if you do not have a full cup, no matter what you pour into the world, you are empty inside. And ultimately the devil decides that, you know, to take you in the darkest of days and you choose to take your own life. And so for me, going back to your question, how do we shift this dialogue? How do we have these? It's this. It's having conversations around it. one conversation at a time, one conversation at a time, until it starts ripple affecting out into this positive influence. That's how change is created. When Nelson Mandela went and he wrote these amazing speeches and these amazing talks, or like Barack Obama changed arguably politics or the US government and for just being the first black president, these things happen, big changes happen through small, seemingly insignificant moments. small, seemingly insignificant conversations and the use of words. For the longest time, I've actually looked at leadership and it's like, how do people influence people? It's by the words that they use or the words that they write. They're either authors or oracles. And that is how you create change by having these podcasts and having these honest, real conversations so that one person on the other end might listen to this and change their opinion around speaking up about mental health. I think that's the only way that we're going to be able to do it. And the more and more people that we have hero in this message and being vulnerable enough and open enough to share these conversations is where you ultimately give a permission slip for someone else to do the same. Utkarsh Narang (35:23.993) so powerful. love this idea of seemingly small shifts lead to the large, large shift that that's for sure. And I think the other the other part is like what you I think you spoke during your sharing is that you got to share it with the world because it adds value to your journey as well. And this is your relationship itself, right? That allows you to do that. Because if you keep thinking about that, I cannot be vulnerable because someone else is going to judge me for that. then you're going to restrict your story. And if you don't share your story enough, then that story is not going to be able to influence anyone in the world. And this thought that you shared, Robin Williams, as soon as you took his name, again, because that he's someone like you've admired for the laughs and for being the comedian that he is. The other one that comes to mind is Chester, Linkin Park and instantly, right? Because you've and Mel Yu (36:13.578) my god, Lincoln Park. See, instantly, yeah. Utkarsh Narang (36:19.833) Who could imagine? Like it seems that they had everything that they need on the outside, right? All the success, all the accolades, all the Grammys and the Emmys and whatever you want to talk about, all the Oscars of the world. And then still they're so... I don't know what the right word is. Like the word that was coming to me, there's something that's broken within and they could not find shelter. They could not find support. They could not find someone to listen to, which is fascinating. Mel Yu (36:48.588) Yeah, and I think when you shared about your wife and I've shared about Angus is like, it's an internal thing. The thing is, suicide is somewhat of an illness because they're empty inside, even if they have all of this. And there's this difference between loneliness and feeling alone, right? Or like, you can feel alone in a crowded room, but you can also, you know, feel loneliness by just... It's internal, it's subjective. And how do we shift that? How do we help people see through another day is through education and empathy. It's through compassion in seeing that it's like, I Utkarsh Narang (37:19.779) Yeah. Mel Yu (37:34.622) I don't know what you're going through, but I can sit with you in it until it moves through you. And I think we need more and more of that kindness in the world. don't often being on the other side of it. I've had my own mental health bouts and I've had my own struggles and challenges, but every time I've opened up to share, I don't need the person receiving it to necessarily solve my problem. I will do that alone. I have the resilience and I have the grit, but A problem shared is a problem halved. And instantly when we talk about talk therapy or psychology or art therapy or music therapy is when you have a release, you feel better because you've allowed the emotion to move through you. When you try and bottle it up and not show it, it just it's like this kettle weight, like the lid waiting to flip. And sometimes that turns into something that is a quite final decision, say like suicide, whereas it was just a temporary emotion, but we've treated it. We get tunnel vision and we can't see the light. And I think when we've got messages like this coming out, just being like, hold on to that hope. Have a conversation. I'm sure you're on the other end and I'm on the other end, constantly being like, hey, we're here. And this is why we're creating all of this content and this education and these conversations because we genuinely care. We wouldn't be here otherwise. We've got a million other fun things to do like our laptops and our work, but we choose to do this because we understand that it's actually critically important to have these conversations. Utkarsh Narang (38:50.287) Absolutely. Utkarsh Narang (39:01.935) so powerful. you know, I also imagine that someone and I know we cannot speak to that person, but someone who takes their own life suicide. You spoke about it. You call it end of the end of the end. think you used it four times, which I absolutely agree. Imagine what's going through their head, what's going through their heart in that moment when they decide to do that to themselves, because It needs a different level of, I don't know what to call it. I, emotions, strength, courage, fear, all of the emotions coming together and making you, making you hurt yourself. it's, Mel Yu (39:30.998) Yeah, that's good. Mel Yu (39:40.29) Yeah, so I'll give you a very interesting fact around every species in the world, every animal, person, not person, every animal, every mammal, every species that have ever come to be, we all have a brain and our instant thing for that animal or that species is to survive. It's literally fight or flight mode, right? It's a survival mechanism that kicks in. The interesting thing about humans, why we're at the top of the food chain, why we're continuously innovating is because our frontal lobe is the most developed and it's our largest. Our ability to critical think is why we out stand bears, tigers, lions, dogs, whatnot. The trouble with that is the opposite exists. We are the only species as humans that have the capacity to want to take our own lives, to want to actually end our lives before our time is done. And that is how powerful our brains are and our minds are. We get to create, innovate. It's why, you know, technology, AI, all of this stuff is, it's so beautiful. But on the other side of that, how dangerous it is if we don't look after our mental health is we can go the other way. No other species. thinks about taking their own lives. But because we've created this ability to almost look at so many different pathways and options, we need to look after our mental health and understand like what we feed it, who we're around, how we're consuming it, and just educating people around. It's a very, very final thing. I'm saying this again from lived experience, but like, if you share it, most of the time our problems are seemingly they're solvable. Utkarsh Narang (41:21.369) Yeah, yeah, 100%. 100%. And I think one thing that I know why it's poking in my head again, again, there's this story, right, that there was an emperor who asked one of his wisest ministers to write something on the wall that if a person who's extremely happy is coming from one side, will read that and will be extremely sad in the moment. And if there's someone who's extremely sad coming from the left side reads it and goes out, feeling slightly happier. And what the minister ended up writing on the wall was that this too shall pass. And sometimes that becomes so hard for us. So that's one thing that's coming to mind. The second is, think we all, once we make ourselves aware enough of this, we need to listen with intent. We need to just be present to each other. I think that's something that we as human beings will innovate and we'll have all the connectedness of the world through social media, but as human beings, as one to one. We need to find ways to connect with each other and that to me is prime. What are your thoughts on that? Mel Yu (42:26.438) I 100 % agree. I'm just reflecting on I love that this too shall pass. It's one of the mantras that have gotten me through every hard day, but exactly kind of what you mentioned every good day as well. Like if we talk about this happiness, understanding that happiness is fleeting and this too shall pass is allowing you to have more gratitude and more presence in the moment because we know that Utkarsh Narang (42:47.471) beautiful. Mel Yu (42:51.47) the next challenge or drama or struggle awaits us as it comes. so, and then also that flip side, just, really, really loved that. It's such simple words, right? Three words, this shall pass, four words. And it's such a powerful, powerful message and so simply put. So I love that. Thank you for sharing that story. And yeah, so I think the more high tech we are, if we're looking at now into the future. Utkarsh Narang (42:55.545) See you Utkarsh Narang (43:00.547) Yeah, that's a bull word. Yeah, words. Mel Yu (43:17.138) We have resources like AI agency bots, obviously ChatGPT like everything, the more high tech we are, the more high touch we are going to need to be. And let me break that down for you. So the more innovation and technology and resources that we're starting to use to assist us in propelling mankind forward, the more we're going to crave in real life experiences and human experiences. It's something so, so powerful that I'm seeing, which I'm loving because I'm in the space of events and personal branding. So I'm in the space of authentic And the beautiful thing that I find is no matter we could, AI could regenerate this conversation and you and me might be having a conversation in another time and it's not even us. But what it can't do, what it can never do is replace our lived experiences and our shared journey around what we've just shared. AI can't generate the feeling that you were given when you were worried about. when you woke up and your wife was not in bed next to you. AI can't generate the feeling and the expression that I just shared in a human form in this episode. It can never do that. And so what I find is that what's gonna happen is we need to become better storytellers and we need to actually be better at... Utkarsh Narang (44:23.983) Yeah. Mel Yu (44:44.99) sharing our journey and our experiences because that's going to be the difference between just education and information versus change. Yeah, versus actually making a change in the world. Utkarsh Narang (44:56.559) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so powerful high tech should lead now for us to be high touch. And absolutely, absolutely. We need to become better storytellers because until unless you, you instill that emotion into each other, what's the point of us being human? So that's powerful. And the prefrontal cortex is always going to have an upper hand from AI. So I definitely believe in the human intelligence more than the artificial intelligence. But now as we... Mel Yu (45:02.67) High touch. Utkarsh Narang (45:28.963) And I'm glad we had this conversation because I think so many of our listeners who would be listening in would be going through these emotions for their own selves, right? Because they would have met someone who was going through this or they might have lost someone who was going through certain mental health challenges. And hopefully this will make us more aware and open to having these conversations. But as I'm talking to you and I know we have spoken about this, I'm seeing some tattoos and I have a fascination for tattoos as well. What's been your relationship with getting tattoos on the body? Because I have my hypothesis and understanding of that too, but I'll share mine once I hear from you. Mel Yu (46:04.662) Sure, tattoos are an interesting one because we actually at the time of recording this conversation, we just finished running Australia's largest tattoo convention at the Melbourne Convention Exhibition Centre. But as I mentioned, when I was originally growing up and fascinated by psychology, I was actually incredibly academic. No tattoos, quite pristine and proper. was always like, I'm going to be a doctor, you know. Utkarsh Narang (46:27.887) you Mel Yu (46:28.43) And then I met Angus, and Angus, I'd love to be able to give a reference photo in post. He was heavily covered in tattoos, big ear stretches, mop of brown hair, life of the party, just one of those rock stars that you instantly was like, that person is different. And I never had tattoos, but as we talk and when he passed, what I realized was to keep him, now only hindsight can tell you this, but. To keep him alive and to keep him within my memory, I started getting tattoos. So I basically instilled a lot of his values into my storytelling, into my journey. And initially when it started, I have his dates on my ankle. I have sort of these momentums and these pieces that commemorated him. And as I've developed into this event space and started running these tattoo conventions, I became a body art collector. And I actually love that every single tattoo when I look at it, brings me back to a moment in time, a phase of the person that I was. It's this constant layer of shedding skin and it's, yeah, it's a conversation starter as well. And I think tattoos historically has also changed. So once upon a time it used to be around, the origin of tattoos was if you're a sailor or if you were a convict, you were marked, you were stamped with tattoos to identify who you were. Utkarsh Narang (47:33.369) Yeah. Mel Yu (47:52.78) And now those connotations have shifted a lot since the early days of tattoo history. know, bikies or gangs, it was always seen as a bit rough around the edges. But what I've seen now globally is tattoos is a celebration of body art and it's much more creative outlet and artistic rather than the traditional, yeah, identification of something that you've done wrong or the identification of you being in a gang or a club. And so that's kind of my journey and I've continuously got more and more like I'm actually relative, like I've got little ones here and there that you can see, but definitely I'm very bottom heavy with tattoos. Both my legs are completely tattooed and yeah, and I kind of love it because it offers one, it offers a conversational starter, but two, it's part of my self expression and who I am and it's been part of my journey. So I, and I love having an open mind. I think if you can hear from this is. Utkarsh Narang (48:22.863) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (48:33.519) Yeah. Mel Yu (48:50.848) I am, very non-judgmental in the sense that everyone has a story and I think every story can be powerfully articulated and compelling in its own way. And Tattoos is just an accentuation of that storytelling piece. Utkarsh Narang (49:05.295) powerful. I love the aspect of I think to me also that is like a form of self expression because they allow you to to to mark your body with something that that means a lot to you. And the other thing that I've always like initially I think I got my first tattoo 15 18 years ago I don't even remember and everyone was like why are you getting your body tattooed and blah blah and that was the connotation at that point right. And I said That's the only thing and in Indian heritage, you know, once you pass on this this body, then the body is burned. So for me, that's the only thing I'm going to take away to heaven or hell, whatever. We might have that conversation separately, but that's the tattoo goes with me. It's part of my identity. And so I want to be very respectful for what identity I want to express. So beautiful. Hi. There's a different energy and I don't know what word to put out, but this this conversation that you and I have had. It is leaving me like longing for more, but still very fulfilled. And I don't know how to explain that, that state. Yeah. Mel Yu (50:05.964) Yeah, I love that. I'm really thankful. The thing about these is it's just unscripted and it's about being present. And I think when you can have a really healthy conversation is because we're not thinking too far into the future. We're not thinking much into what this conversation has. And normally that's when you get the juicy stuff. That's when you get the really amazing depth. yeah, it's been very powerful. Utkarsh Narang (50:14.873) That's it. Utkarsh Narang (50:20.366) See ya. Utkarsh Narang (50:30.467) And as we now come towards the end, the final bookend question that we close the conversation with is, Mel, we spoke about the eight year old Mel, but if we go a few decades into the future, and if that 80 year old Mel, the one hopefully with gray hair or whatever she chooses to have at that point, yeah, yeah, if she comes and now has a piece of advice for you or something that she wants to share the way you should live the next few decades, what do you think she'll say to you? Mel Yu (50:45.063) I lived a long life. Mel Yu (50:58.936) Gosh, I'd love to know. I think she'll tell me that the best is yet to come. I really think that she will say, just keep swinging. I'm such a... I've just always lived this attitude of like, if not now when, and if I get an idea, I leave no stone unturned. So like, I'm very good at just executing things that tickle my fancy. following your curiosity, following your intuition, following the things that light you up can never really like stray you too far from the course because you either get there and you win or you create an epic story and either way I'm down for it. So a lot of my, you know, my life, didn't really talk about failures and success, but my life is riddled with failures and things that I've attempted that have just obviously not come to the best of fruition. But what they have done is they've taught me so much about myself or they've taught me so much about life and the lessons, or even if something doesn't work out, I'll be like, but I met that person. And if I didn't do that, I wouldn't have met that person. So. I just think I'm gonna continue to live life like that. And as I mature into my later years in life, I think your 20s are all about like making mistakes and not knowing who you are. I'm now in the middle of my 30s and 30s is about this becoming and coming home to self. And like we've mentioned, this falling in love with yourself and knowing who you are. And I think my 40s are gonna be my best years yet because like, if it's this good now. Mel Yu (52:41.322) it's only going to get better. So 80 year old self is going to be like, wow, yeah, that's cool. Utkarsh Narang (52:43.981) Thanks. So many mirror neurons are getting ignited in my head as I'm having this conversation with you because, and, and, you know, my friends used to call me like, and still call me eternal optimist because I feel like everything that happens happens for a reason. And you meet up with people, meet a person for a reason. And if you fail at something, that's okay, but you've learned something to build upon it. So absolutely agree with you. It is, it is for them and for me as well, because they don't understand me and I don't understand them. Uh, but this idea of best is yet to come. Love it. Mel Yu (52:58.114) Yes. Mel Yu (53:06.592) It must be so annoying. Utkarsh Narang (53:16.897) absolutely with you on that. I actually, this year is the milestone birthday. If we can call it, I turned 40 this year in July. And so I'm looking forward to the forties are going to be the best ever. It's amazing. And this idea, maybe we need so, so many thoughts, right? Maybe we need a part two to discuss about the failures and what you've built upon them. But this idea of best is yet to come, Mel. It does not come easily to people because people feel like Mel Yu (53:24.118) Yay. Yes, absolutely. Mel Yu (53:35.822) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (53:43.397) I failed at something or my life is set in stone now. I cannot change. What's one piece of advice that you want to leave with all our listeners who feel like they're swinging it, but they believe that the best has passed them or best will not come. How do they really reframe this? Mel Yu (53:58.222) To reframe, the word that comes to mind for me is faith. I have, and I say faith rather than religion because I believe that it's faith that's kept me going for so long. It's faith that's kept me to overcome every hard thing and every challenge, but also not losing hope. And faith is that sense of hope. And it's something greater than you. It's trusting that the universe creator, source, God, whatever you choose your faith to be, they know. We're minuscule of a little dust in a tiny micro moment on the timeline. And I really think about this on a floating orbit planet that apparently has the Milky Way is one thing, but then there's galaxies on galaxies on galaxies. And that level of faith and understanding is what allows me to play in the time that I'm here. In one generation, I will be forgotten, less than. And... Utkarsh Narang (54:52.835) lesson. Mel Yu (54:54.028) This conversation will be just another piece of content in the million billions of pieces of content. Yet for the time that I was here, how meaningful did I have it? How much did I do? So when I operate from that lens, the best is truly yet to come because you're still here. You're still here, which means that there's something more for you. And if you're listening to a podcast like this, I don't need to educate you. You know that there's the best is yet to come. So shift your mindset, reframe it. and find whatever it is that allows you to keep the faith. Utkarsh Narang (55:26.959) Amazing. I can't wait for us to be together in person, having a cup of coffee, a glass of wine, whatever that might be, and have these conversations because we're, as you were saying, we like a speck of dust on the speck of dust on the speck of dust. And we still feel that the decisions that we make right now or the choices we do are going to influence humanity for the rest of life. And we put that pressure on ourselves that then leads to so many repercussions. And I think it's time that we start living this moment and do our best in this moment. And then we figure it out when the next moment comes. This time that you and I have spent, Mel, I think it was worth the conversation between the two of us. Hopefully a million or a billion people listened to it. If not, it was worth it. Thank you for your presence. And I truly appreciate you being here. And for those who listening on a podcast platform, leave a comment, share with someone who you think might need this. And if you're on YouTube, do not forget to like, subscribe and comment. And Mel, any final words before we go? Mel Yu (56:21.078) I think as you've just said that, just, everyone should read the air cut totally like the power of now, which is what you've kind of just mentioned. All we have is this moment, embrace the moment, drop the shoulders, whatever stress that you have, zoom out a little bit and realize we are a speck of dust and there's something really insignificantly beautiful about that. And so embrace it, enjoy it. And I wish you guys an amazing future because the best is yet to come. Utkarsh Narang (56:27.983) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (56:49.167) Beautiful. Thank you so much. Mel Yu (56:53.218) Thanks for having me. Utkarsh Narang (56:55.073) Amazing. This is so, so beautiful. Thank you for, for such a, I love how unscripted conversations go so deep and honest and you don't even have to work hard towards them, right? They just flow. They just flow. Mel Yu (57:08.96) Yeah, no, so powerful. And I thank you for that because it's like you've got a podcast called Ignited Neurons, right? So I think it's, it's refreshing to not be just solely about business and solely about personal development and whatnot. But it encompasses all of it because people think that they need business and strategy. But what I find is these conversations really shift the course of their life and relationships are everything. Utkarsh Narang (57:19.021) Yeah. Yeah. everything. Utkarsh Narang (57:32.537) They are, they are. And I think once we build those relationships without the end goal and outcome, but just for the sake of building that relation, because it, just energizes us. think that's what, that's what it is all about. Not transactional. Absolutely. Cool. I have three more questions for you. And what I'll do is I'll put myself off video for those three questions, because they're just you being recorded for. So the first question will be if, if you were to recommend this episode to someone. Mel Yu (57:42.904) Absolutely. Not transactional. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Utkarsh Narang (58:01.005) Why should they watch this? So you can say if you're so and so what you just, yeah, I'll let you speak. Mel Yu (58:07.502) If you are someone that wants to improve their life and improve the lives of others around you, you should listen to this episode as it has so many golden nuggets around relationship, purpose, living life authentically and sharing your message. Utkarsh Narang (58:25.167) Beautiful, perfect. Question number two, if you were to introduce Mel in a single statement, how would you introduce yourself? Mel Yu (58:36.718) I'm Mal Yu. I am a personal branding strategist and an events guru and I just want to leave people in a better place than when they found them. Utkarsh Narang (58:49.391) Beautiful, such a powerful way to do that. And then final one, how would you describe this podcast recording episode experience to someone who could be our future guest? Why should they come on this podcast? Mel Yu (59:04.878) Well, they should come on this podcast because it's so much fun and you're a great interviewer to be able to hold space and to allow conversations to just flow and you pick out key things that I share often, but haven't shared in a way that I've been able to do on this episode. So it's all about that energy exchange and the frequency. So you've done a great job on the ignited neurons podcast because you've definitely ignited my neurons and hopefully for many out there listening as well. Utkarsh Narang (59:32.611) Beautiful, amazing, this was amazing. I thoroughly enjoyed our conversation. I'll stop the recording now.