Utkarsh Narang (00:01.024) Welcome to another episode of the Ignited Neurons podcast. And if you're joining this, my assumption is, and we'll prove that hypothesis right or wrong, my assumption is that by the end of this conversation, you would have heard Linda and I speak about screen versus green time. We would have spoken about resilient kids and that resilience will apply to you even if you're in your twenties and thirties and you don't have kids. And we'll also speak about that there is no such thing as bad weather because Linda is an expert who's who's been featured in publications across the world, but has it in two beautiful books, The Open Air Life and There's No Such Thing as Bad Weather. Welcome Linda, looking forward to the conversation here with you today. Linda (00:42.52) Thank you for having me. I'm really excited to be here and chat with you. Utkarsh Narang (00:47.33) Beautiful. We have this starting bookend question, Linda, that takes us straight into the deep end of the pool. And the question is that if eight-year-old little girl, Linda, growing up wherever she was during that time, were to come and meet you right now, what kind of a conversation do you think will emerge between that eight-year-old and the current Linda that we're speaking to? Linda (01:11.566) It's such an interesting hypothetical question. I think that the 47, I'm 47 now, so I think 47 year old Linda would just tell 8 year old Linda to stand up for herself and keep being herself. Childhood can be tough at times and I think I would have liked to have that, know that support. I was getting personal here right off the bat, but I was bullied by some older boys when I was in school. And I think if I could talk to myself as a younger child, I really would have tried to boost myself and that, you know, so that I would have felt confident and secure in myself getting through school. And then I think the eight year old me, would ask 47 year old me if I had any regrets, anything that I've done in my life thus far. And my philosophy generally is to not feel regrets about anything that I do. I tend to look at things that happen as experiences and, you know, things that would that makes you grow regardless, even if they're hard at the time, I think we're better off for it. So, you when I was a teenager, all I wanted was to get away from my hometown. Home was always somewhere else where I wasn't at the time. And so I went to New Zealand for a year almost and lived there. was in Australia several times, ended up meeting an American and eventually moved to the U.S. where I lived for many years. And I, yeah, I don't regret any of that, but I do, and you probably know this as well, since you have made that move across continents too, that it comes at a cost because you do also have family back home for me in Sweden. And it kind of hit home when my grandmother got sick. Linda (03:34.863) She was 85 and she came down with cancer and she passed away that same year and I was able to be with her for one of the, know, towards the end. But I felt then that I had not collected enough of her stories. And at that time it was already too late. She was, she suffered from dementia and... and eventually she passed away and now I'm actually working on a book about that. So I'm retracing her childhood, I think as a way to sort of deal with my own grief from that time. So even though I have no regrets, I probably would have tried to do things a little different were I able to go back in time. Utkarsh Narang (04:24.92) Wow. Wow. Thank you. Yeah. I just love this question, right? Because it opens up the podcast into so many different directions and a listener who's kind of listening to this, whether they're at whatever age they're at, there is some part of one person that would connect to a part of your story here, Linda. So I'm going to kind of try and unpack because you spoke about how childhood can be tough and I... absolutely growing up in India with parents who were both doctors. A sister who was exceptional in her studies, younger to me, but still exceptional. It was interesting to say the least and how now as a parent, as I and my wife and I raised two kids who were 14 and 11, how all these conversations around bullying come up and you have to of... Linda (05:00.814) Hmm. Linda (05:04.312) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (05:20.32) see where to take them. And then this idea about not living with regrets. Let's start with the first part, which you shared. How do you really, the younger self, the eight year old, the 10 year old self, and I know this carries to the future also. It's really hard to stand up for yourself, What do you think helps people get into that space where they can feel that confidence or whatever word we might use to stand up for yourself? Linda (05:25.976) Mm. Linda (05:38.176) Yeah, it is. Linda (05:50.521) Well, my refuge has always been nature. I grew up firmly rooted in nature, being outside a lot of the time. That's part of the culture here in Scandinavia. We have something called frilufsliv, which roughly translates to open air life. It doesn't quite have an equivalent, but it's basically it's... It revolves around being outdoors and sort of feeling joy in nature and not necessarily by any advanced means, but sort of connecting with your nearby nature. So utilizing your whatever neighborhood woods and local parks and so on that you have. And so we were outdoors during preschool for several hours per day and then at home too. You know, just walking in the woods and in the winter time we'd go skiing and summertime camping and hiking. And we know now what our parents back in the 80s, they just sort of had that gut feeling that the outdoors were good for us. They didn't quite know why because there wasn't that much research. There wasn't actually any research on it back then. It was just emerging in the 80s. Nature's effect on our well-being. But they just sort of felt it in their gut that it was fresh air is good for you. And and that's how they that was their their motto. And also, there's no such thing as bad weather, only bad clothing. So that's you know, we played outdoors and all sorts of weather. And so, you know, nature offers a lot of natural challenges from a young age when you're outdoors, even if you're, before you can walk even, if you're just like crawling around and there are logs and rocks to sort of try and for a young child to try and scale. And there's a... Linda (08:07.022) And it's just a really great way to hone your resilience. And today we have hundreds, if not thousands of studies on the benefits of nature on children. And resilience is one of those things. There are studies showing where children have been out camping for a number of days and then they've like scored better on like... questions relating to resilience. And I've seen just anecdotal evidence too. I mean, I've seen it with my own children that, you know, once they get, if you can get them used to different weather conditions. mean, weather is just one such a simple way where it can change and you just learn to deal with it rather than, you know, give up and go inside. That's a huge lesson right there. that's, nature has always been very beneficial. to me and my growth personally. Utkarsh Narang (09:08.512) I deliberately pause there. So I'm seeing you Linda look at a little higher from the camera. Maybe I'm on a screen up there. Where's the camera? Linda (09:10.242) Yeah. Linda (09:15.598) yeah. It's like where I look right now is the camera. Utkarsh Narang (09:21.122) Can you look a little lower than where you're looking right now? Yeah, now this seems to me the lens of the camera. Linda (09:24.482) Like here. Linda (09:32.204) Like where you put your finger right now. Utkarsh Narang (09:34.154) No, no, don't worry about my fingers. That's to me to show you. Yeah, that's it. That's it. Where are you looking at right now on your screen? That's perfect. Linda (09:39.522) Here. Okay. How weird. I've always thought I should look at the, like right into the lens where the, but then I should look more. Utkarsh Narang (09:52.77) slightly lower than, yes, this is perfect. So there's, yeah, yeah, this is perfect angle. So I know what you're looking at right now, but that's the spot where, and this is the videographer of me that comes out and thinks about these things. Because to me, like, so right now I'm looking at the screen, but right now I'm looking at the camera. And there's that slight adjustment between your eyeballs and then that creates the visual effect. Yes, this is perfect. Okay, perfect. Yeah, yeah. Linda (09:54.722) there. Okay. Linda (09:59.319) Okay. Yeah. Linda (10:12.717) Yeah. So here's good. Okay, I have to relearn this. Okay. Utkarsh Narang (10:22.72) Yeah, so I'll pick it up from where was and the editors would take care of it. That's so beautiful. So finding refuge in nature. And I love what you're saying, you know, and I remember so many examples come to my mind, Linda, as you're sharing that. And I kind of quickly want to go through them because I remember as a young child, we did not have ample opportunities and growing up in Delhi, India, a beautifully chaotic place, did not have ample opportunities to go outside. But even when just going to the park, just having the rain come in and I remember dancing in the rain and feeling so amazing about those memories. They still stay with me. And then as we grew up and I remember my wife and I used to have a ritual where we would wake up in the morning and we would go to a nearby park to go for a walk. And that just made us feel stress free, made us feel so much more calmer. But can you share a little bit more like what is this relationship between nature and resilience and you're sharing about the studies? But what's the effect that nature has on us? And I know I'm going deeper into this today, but I'd love to explore this with you that what is the real effect that nature is having on our bodies, minds, souls even, that is so, so beautiful. Linda (11:33.581) Yeah. Well, the thing is, we've really evolved in nature for millennia. I mean, we get our livelihood from nature. mean, we all the blue spaces that's that signals water that we obviously need for our survival. All the green spaces also key to our survival. That's where our food is. And so right there, there is a very deep in deep connection with our not just our physical needs, but also, you know, our mental wellness. And I mentioned earlier that in the 80s, people started studying this. And at first they were sort of regarded as, know, other other researchers felt like it was mumbo jumbo what they were doing. Utkarsh Narang (12:31.032) Mmm. Linda (12:32.044) when they started looking at, for example, Roger Ulrich, who is a researcher who looked at patients in hospitals and how his hypothesis was that if they had a view of trees outside their windows, he thought that could benefit them. And as it turned out, a... it was when they recovered from surgery. So he compared two different groups of patients. One group had no view or they were just overlooking some concrete buildings. And then the other group, they had a view of nature or some trees at least. And the group with a nicer view, they actually had they needed shorter time in the hospital and required less medicine. And this has been repeated in studies afterwards, but that was kind of the landmark study that sort of started the whole research into nature's ability to heal us. And so, So from there, you know, we've just seen so many studies that have shown measurable effects on our bodies. So for example, our blood pressure goes down when we're outdoors, we feel calmer, more relaxed, cortisol levels go down, that's cortisol is the stress hormone. So of course that going down contributes to us feeling more relaxed. There's also of course the vitamin D which we get from the sun which you know we're seeing in the UK there have been reports that rickets is coming back because children today are spend so much time indoors which we thought we didn't see that coming right and then just you know walking outdoors walking especially is Linda (14:55.874) connected with many health benefits like lower risk for certain types of cancer. I mean, if you look at the big lifestyle diseases that we have today, nature is really beneficial in preventing all of them. mean, if we're looking at heart disease, obesity, diabetes, and also not to forget anxiety and depression, which have taken epidemic. proportions today. And what nature does is that it makes us it makes us less prone to anxiety and depression. And I think especially today where I mean, we're seeing a lot of young people affected by mental health issues. And I see a lot of potential here with nature if we can get children back outside, because essentially what You know, what's happened in just one generation is that children have vanished from the neighborhood woods, the playgrounds, even their own backyards. Childhood has moved indoors. mean, children grow up within the confines of four walls and they're worse off because of it. They're in worse shape, physical shape. Their mental health is suffering and they're disconnected from nature. Utkarsh Narang (16:28.108) I'm absorbing all of that you're saying because there are so many lived experiences that are coming to my mind right now as I'm hearing you speak and what the effect of nature has had on my personal life and that makes it easier for me to kind of consume what you're sharing, right? Because my grandfather used to walk for miles just for... for work or for just for leisure, even when he was in his 70s and 80s and he lived till about 96. And I used to always think and he was someone who would who would have his appetite even at the beautiful age of 94, 95. And I used to feel like what allows him to do that. And that walk was was super important. I remember something in my case, I whenever I feel stressed and if I go out for a run for a for a walk, for a bike ride, just just being outdoors. is so, so helpful in getting that cortisol level low. But this big thing that you've shared here, which is that childhood has moved indoors. The indoors have become so attractive, almost it seems Linda, that the outside world has become almost like a privilege for many. So how do you balance that out in your world and what's been your experience? Linda (17:42.862) Yeah. Linda (17:47.363) Well, yeah, so like you said, the indoors have become attractive, I think because we've made it, we've become a little too comfortable, right? We wake up in the morning in our climate controlled homes and we drive to work or school in our climate controlled vehicles and we, you our kids go to school. Utkarsh Narang (17:56.375) Mmm. Linda (18:11.97) and they're indoors, they may not even get recess, that's not a given in a lot of places. We go to our office or factory wherever we work, might hit the gym on the way back, stand on a treadmill, come back, we're inside. And yeah, no, I mean, it's hurting us and it's hurting children. I mentioned, know, children are disconnected. We know from studies that children are... far better at recognizing corporate logos today than they are recognizing their local wildlife. There was just one study in the UK showing that over eight out of 10 children can't recognize a bumblebee. so, disconnect is real, I think. And that's why I've, for the... Utkarsh Narang (18:48.088) you Linda (19:08.162) past 15 years or so, I've really, you this is what I've been passionate about working for. I've dedicated my life to writing and talking about these issues and how we can get kids back outside and adults because, you know, it goes hand in hand. And Fri Lu Sli is really about getting the whole family outdoors. And I think it's really key here. I think the first thing Utkarsh Narang (19:24.792) Mm. Linda (19:37.775) but has to happen is that adults really need to realize how important this is, that nature is an essential part of childhood. Nature is crucial to children's normal development. I mean, we talked about some of the benefits earlier, but a lot of children suffer from near sightedness today because their eyes, our eyes require daylight to develop normally. And so, so I think once you have that realization, then you can prioritize nature time and make it a part of your family rhythm. So even if it means starting with 15 minutes per day, I mean, a lot of people will say, well, we don't have, we're too busy. Well, if you think you're too busy, then you definitely need this more than, you know, Utkarsh Narang (20:29.186) thing. Utkarsh Narang (20:34.456) Hmm. Linda (20:35.85) more than ever. And so you need to free up your schedule to make sure that you can be outside. But then again, a lot of parents, you know, they leave their children with babysitters or they might be at preschool or school for a big chunk of the day. So, so it's really a team effort. Like parents shouldn't really be by themselves in this. I usually say that it takes a village to raise an outdoor loving child. I think in the Scandinavian countries, we're pretty good at that, where you have support, you know, get support from the medical community, like doctors recommending children to nap outdoors, and you have the support of the school and preschool where outdoor time is mandated. Utkarsh Narang (21:11.224) Mm. Linda (21:30.315) And then you have this culture, frilis-friis, so on the weekends, know, families often will do things outdoors, either together or just with their own families. So my advice, even, you know, regardless of where you live, and you don't have to live near pristine wilderness to let your child experience nature, because nature is all around us. given that it's always going to be more restorative in a a wilder place because that's just how we work. You know, with the traffic and crowds, that's what people were trying to get away from when they started talking about the frile of Sleve back in the 1800s. And of course, that has that part hasn't gotten better for the past 200 years. So so I think the need today is even greater and we also have the added challenge of all these digital devices. yeah, so first step is like recognizing the need for it, recognizing that it's important. Second step, know, dress for the weather, get outside regardless. I know it can be a challenge, in the warm or both in the warm, really warm climates and cold climates. I've talked mostly about cold climates, partly because that's where I grew up, but also, yeah, because a lot of people really, really hate cold weather. And so I keep saying, well, it's just a matter of dressing for it. staying active, you can stay warm no matter what. Utkarsh Narang (23:01.58) Mm. Mm. Utkarsh Narang (23:17.304) Yeah. Linda (23:25.066) And then third, like do make it a part of your family rhythm so that being outdoors every day is normal and expected. And that way it also becomes easier to get the kids outside because they don't, like you said, they today don't always want to go outside. It's like when I was young, our parents had to drag us in. It's like, come on in, it's dinnertime. And now it's like you're having to push them out. Utkarsh Narang (23:36.365) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (23:51.276) Yeah. Linda (23:54.701) out the door. And I think the screen time part that has, mean, that I think that's one of the, yeah, that's one of the main reasons why we're here. It's not the only reason because this started, this trend started already in the eighties, at least in the U.S. and there are more reasons for that. But of course, with, you know, with kids today having Utkarsh Narang (24:07.576) Hmm. Linda (24:23.808) all the entertainment that they could possibly ask for right in the palms of their hands. It makes it a lot harder for parents to regulate. So therefore, when I talk to parents today, I always tell them, delay, delay, delay the time that you give your child a... a smartphone at least because by the time you give them a smartphone, that's that you're giving up a lot of control over their time. You can try and use the parental controls I always have with my kids. But the thing is, there are so many loopholes and the kids are always going to be one step ahead of you in terms of knowing how to manipulate those things. So, yeah, but yeah. Utkarsh Narang (25:09.016) you Utkarsh Narang (25:16.226) Yeah. Linda (25:17.102) And there are a lot of other things you can do about the screen time. Make sure, I mean, definitely use the parental controls, but also have certain times of the day in certain areas where you don't allow phones. So for example, in our home, there's a zero tolerance on phones at the dinner table. So absolutely, yeah, no phones at the dinner table. Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (25:34.434) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (25:41.08) I'm going to interject here, Linda. I made a note of this because I'm going to come back to the screen time conversation because you're sharing one wisdom pearl after the other. And I've filled three pages already. And I always tell this to listeners that I have these conversations with lot of intention to learn from whoever is here and then add to that conversation, but also recommend to the listeners that Linda (25:50.702) Mm-hmm. Linda (25:55.189) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (26:08.863) It might be overwhelming sometimes because both of us are deeply into it. And so it will seem like, you're asking us to do so much. cannot do, let's switch off the video. Let's switch off the podcast. But I think what, let's summarize all of this because the first beautiful thing that you said was this three step model, right? It was just so simple. Recognize that a change needs to happen. So it's a mindset shift. And then the second was dress for the weather, whether it's too cold outside or too hot outside, you can always dress for the weather. Linda (26:12.835) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Linda (26:31.064) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (26:37.954) to allow yourself to build that family rhythm, which was step three, to have some kind of physical activity in your day. And what I'm hearing is you spoke about vitamin D, you spoke about blood pressure, cortisol. There are so many supplements and medicines and healthcare system that's built around fixing this for us. But here, nature has provided us a free resource, a free resource to take care of everything from our cortisol to our stress. And I know there are conditions where medically absolutely intervention is required. we, Linda and I are in no way saying that, uh, stop going to a doctor, but start going into nature to protect yourself so that you don't have to go for a doctor. I remember that, um, that's saying, and my dad was a physician, uh, is still a physician, uh, Linda. And so he would always say an apple a day keeps the doctor away. And I used to laugh at him. You're the doctor. So you're not going to go away. How many apples I eat. Uh, but, but it is such an important thing because all. Linda (27:19.042) Yeah. Linda (27:26.957) Yeah. Ha ha ha ha. Utkarsh Narang (27:34.388) it's happening there is is is being closer to nature. And then Linda, you spoke about starting small, which is just 15 minutes a day, sometimes even 10 minutes a day, but do something about it. And that's going to be helpful. And then the final beautiful thing, I think. You said that in our days, people like like parents had to pull us out from the outside to have us have dinner. think the. Linda (27:39.34) Yes. Utkarsh Narang (28:00.6) challenge and I see that with my kids as well, Linda, is that you have to pull them out of their bedrooms with their devices as they grow up to be on the dinner table. So it's a very interesting shift that we're seeing. Here's a thought, Linda, and I love your views on it. What I really feel is that at the end of the day, whether it's parenting, whether it's us as teenagers or young adults growing or young workforce coming into the world, so we have audience who's between say 25 to 45. I think it's ultimately about role modeling. And if you role model the right behavior to your kids and to yourself, or if you have idols who do this day in and day out, then I think getting outside would be much easier. Linda, what are your thoughts on that? Linda (28:45.344) Yeah, absolutely. I mean, just going back to my own childhood and going back to myself, there was a time when I sort of drifted away from nature and that was in my teen years. I mean, I still went outside and walked in the woods sometimes, but it wasn't my top priority and I probably didn't do it every day. And I'm sort of seeing it with my kids now too, and they're 14 and 17. But I will always know that I, you know, as a parent, you provide the foundation like that is, you know, what you do when the children are little is that's building the foundation for the rest of their lives. And if you implement three loose sleeve, if you have the outdoors as a part of your daily rhythm, then you ensure that they they're always there. That's going to rewire their brain to where they will. know that as something positive. And then they might drift away from it for a while, but it's going to come back to them. I'm convinced of it. To me, you know, for me, it came back to me in my 20s and I started really sort of going camping and hiking again and skiing. And then when I became a mom, then it definitely hit home that I needed to sort of like really double down on connecting my children with nature because I realized that so much had changed since I was a child and I was also in the US rather than Sweden raising my children. It was also a different culture. So I had to become very intentional about taking them outdoors and even just like learning my new biome because since I hadn't grown up in Indiana, I didn't know the most common birds. I didn't know what all the flowers were that were in our backyard. And it was a, it made me feel like a stranger even in my own backyard. So I took my children out and we learned together because I was a beginner too in this new environment. And now I'm starting to see with... Linda (31:09.856) my oldest daughter that she's starting to go for runs by herself in the woods and it's already sort of coming back to her now and I think there's a delicate balance there between sticking with your rhythm and your routines and getting out and also giving your teenagers the leeway that they need to sort of assert their independence because that's what they're doing now. You know, they're practicing becoming adults, right? That's what adolescence is about. So they need to assert their independence. And sometimes I realize I have to step back. And having said that, the most beautiful moments that we have together is when, you know, that's when we walk in the woods together and the youngest one still. Utkarsh Narang (31:44.332) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Linda (32:04.302) she still comes camping with me sometimes. And I really treasure those moments now because I realize that this is going to be the end of an era eventually. But I know, I'm confident that I have at least given them the gift of nature. And it's something that they will always be able to fall back on even when life is rough. know they're going to, mean, everybody, nobody walks through life Utkarsh Narang (32:06.956) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (32:22.04) Hmm. Linda (32:34.19) unscathed. mean we all, we're all affected by you know grief and trauma in some cases and nature is a great resource you know for that. In Sweden nature is one of the top ways to cope with grief for example. So after you know people who lost a child and have turned to the woods as a way of healing. Utkarsh Narang (32:35.544) Mmm. Linda (33:02.858) And I think that's very powerful. mean, nature is, I mean, it's essentially, it's a free resource in one way, but then again, not everybody has equal access and that's a huge, huge problem. So public lands, you know, I'm a big advocate of course of public lands and I wish more people in charge realized what the, you know, how much that we're getting back. Utkarsh Narang (33:17.974) Yeah. Linda (33:29.934) just in mental health services. You know, we talked about medications earlier and of course there are times when you need medications, but for lighter forms of depression, the outdoors has actually proved to be equally efficient, if not more effective than medications. And that's also why some doctors now are prescribing nature. Utkarsh Narang (33:30.082) Hmm. Linda (33:57.433) They call it NatureX. I think that's pretty cool that we've gotten to that point now where we're actually recognizing the scientific benefits and some doctors now are also applying it in their daily work. So I think that's really cool. Utkarsh Narang (34:15.128) Beautiful. Again, my third page is full of notes as well now, Love it. I'm going to kind of have our listeners go through this all over again in summaries, because what you're saying is this gift of nature. think I so deeply resonate with that. And the body is the most expensive resource that we have, because as I telling you, have this little bit of a shoulder pain since morning. And throughout the conversation, part of me is thinking about that pain. And I know that pain will not solve in going into nature, but whatever your body is going through, nature is a healer. Nature is there for you and allows you to have that beautiful experience, which we've spoken about how it impacts us. But I think it's a ritual that one needs to build to allow that connection between nature and yourself to happen. I was once studying and we'll come to that later. So I'm just putting it out there for both of us. this idea of grounding, of walking without anything in your feet on the grass and just gives so much joy. And what you said, life is rough. No one's going to go unscathed and we are all going to have grief and trauma at different levels and different depths. But nature becomes this almost uniting force that allows us to get that benefit. And then one last thing that I to kind of share. my elder one, he was for the longest time telling me that I want to wake up at 5.30 in the morning with you and go to the gym because that's something that I used to do forever and still do. And I was like, you're 13 right now, you're too little. What do you do in the gym? What would you in the gym? And I kept kind of pushing him back for about three months, I think. And he would not give up and he was persistent. And then I realized, Utkash, here's your son who's about to turn 14 now. And he says he wants to wake up at 5.30. and go to the gym with you while or for any kind of physical exercise. Right. So why are you stopping it? Because if this becomes an habit, like a habit for him right now, you've given him a gift that he's going to cherish for the rest of his life. And now what happens is every morning I'll be in bed sometimes tired. 5.15 he'll come. Dad, you have to go to the gym. And then I tell him on Sundays, Sundays are for relaxation. We will not go and do anything and this and that. And he's like, okay, I'll come wake you up at six. Utkarsh Narang (36:38.936) so that we can go for a bike ride. And so we go through these trails every weekend where we enjoy these long bike rides, 25, 30 kilometers, 40 kilometers sometimes, which he loves. And to me, that's such precious time that I get to spend with him. And now I, in retrospect, feel like I'm glad that he persisted and he did not give up because that's in his nature and allowed him to find this as what he's cherishing. I'd love to also hear a little bit about from you when you're saying doctors have started to recommend nature as a treatment. I've not heard of that. So can you tell me a little bit more on that Linda? That's fascinating. Linda (37:14.466) Yeah, yeah. I mean, we're seeing that especially, I think, in North America and maybe because I think in Scandinavia, we already sort of have that tradition. Most people do know that that nature is restorative and healing in that way. But I think since North America sort of lacks that frilus-leave culture, I think that is a way for for them to sort of, to make people go outside. Because if your doctor says you're gonna do it, then yeah, you better comply. And so I can't tell you how many doctors are doing it. I don't have those figures in my head right now, but something that we have seen in Sweden though, that I could also might also wanna mention is that we're... Utkarsh Narang (37:54.38) I agree. Linda (38:11.01) There are programs here within the healthcare system where people, for example, who have been long-term unemployed for various reasons, whether they've been on long-term sick leave or just have fallen out of the work market for different reasons. There are programs where they are sort of nature therapy programs of sorts where they do crafts and They go out in the woods and they learn how to make different ointments from the birch sap and all sorts of things. And they have been extremely successful with getting even people who have been outside of the job market for years and getting them back into the job market. So that's another way that Utkarsh Narang (39:01.784) Mmm. Linda (39:08.684) that we can use nature to sort of empower people to be their best selves. Utkarsh Narang (39:14.08) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (39:19.388) love it. Love it. This is we can use nature to empower people to be the best selves. I just love the statement. Thank you for sharing that. And to all the listeners and we now kind of shift into this idea of screen versus green time, which which Linda was speaking to. I very respectfully paused her. But I think to all the listeners, you can have all the excuses in the world that you want for you to not be doing anything. And this podcast, this conversation could be another blip in your existence where you'll be like, they're talking something that's very cool, very important. Yes, one should do that. But you'll go back to wherever you are and not change anything. And does not impact me and does not impact Linda. But it would be it would be a joy for us for for why we're having this conversation, why we're investing deeply into this conversation is that if you were to make that one small shift that you could start off your journey with, I think it'll be it'll be a massive. example of compounding done over time where you invest in your body, whether that's 10 minutes a day or 15 or 30 for whatever that might look like for you. And I love this idea, Linda, that I think James Clear in Atomic Habits shares, where he says that if you do something regularly and you don't do it for a day, then that's a mistake. But if you don't do it for two days in a row, then that's the start of another habit. I think it's really important that who is listening start to prioritize nature time, start to prioritize their body, their health, because that's all we have. That's all we have. Linda (40:52.536) Yes, it's interesting that you mentioned James Clear because I've read that book too and I really love it. And I think, I mean, you can apply it on so many things, including nature time. And I think one of the other things that he recommends is to make it easy to make that choice. So for example, we always have clothes that like our outdoor clothes, either they hang easily accessible in the hallway so that you you can get to them easily and just Utkarsh Narang (41:09.591) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (41:18.251) Yeah. Linda (41:22.798) them on it and go outside. And another thing that he says is to surround yourself with people who have the same ambition or will to go outside because when they you can hold each other accountable. so plus if you have children, they usually enjoy being outdoors more if there are other children, right? You don't if your kids are the only ones in the neighborhood. Utkarsh Narang (41:32.448) Yeah. Linda (41:49.231) who are outside, well, yeah, they're gonna wanna be where the other kids are, which is possibly, you know, inside playing video games or something. yeah, the more people that are outside, the more your children are gonna wanna be out there too. So. Utkarsh Narang (41:57.762) Correct. Utkarsh Narang (42:06.776) Absolutely. Yeah. Make the choice easy. And as I'm speaking with you, Lynette, it seems like mirror neurons are getting fired right here because my jacket, because we came here to Melbourne two years ago and people who we were speaking with, said, Kash and my wife, be careful. You see four seasons in a single day in Melbourne. I'm like, how is that even possible? How can you have like a rain, a sunshine and the cold? But when we came here, we realized that you could have a morning that's four degrees Celsius and it's really cold, the wind, and then you can get into the sun shining and heat and then the temperature drops again and you could have rain in the middle. So what we've done is we never put our clothes away in a way and then the jacket that we use to kind of walk outside is right there in the hallway. It's right in front of us so that it's just as easy as just pick it up and go for a walk. And then the second idea, surrounding yourself with people who would nudge you and push you to do that, I think another beautiful idea. Linda (42:55.31) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (43:04.738) to help you get that nature time. Awesome. Now, when I pause you on that conversation, Linda, you were saying how there's zero tolerance at the dinner table on the screen time. And I want to kind of have a speak about this idea of screen versus green. And as I'm talking about this, if folks are watching it on YouTube, you'll see that my camera is doing something. It's not allowing me to zoom into my face. Now it does. But this idea of screen and green, you know, there was a time when screens were not this. Linda (43:06.691) Yes. Utkarsh Narang (43:32.756) easily accessible the way it is right now. And I think there were simpler times, but having these screens around us has its own benefits. But I think what we've lost Linda is the, is that optimal balance, right? So what's, how do you create that balance and what's your perspective on the green versus screen time? Linda (43:51.725) Yeah, yeah, the balance is really the holy grail of modern parenting. I do think that all parents struggle with this one way or another, matter how, no matter what stance you've decided to take in this. I think the first thing that I just want to point out to, and maybe mainly to parents of younger children, and that is that once you start giving some screen time or like especially especially with the handheld devices because they are the ones that are the hardest to to to keep control of then you are really then you it helps in the moment i mean we all know as parents like sometimes you just need the kids to be busy with something maybe you need to take a shower make breakfast or whatever and We put a screen in front of them just so they would so we can do what we need to be doing and it helps at the time, but it's creating more problems in the long run. So I think it's I think it's important to to let things take a little longer, even if it means, you know, inviting your child to do the chore with you. There's another great book, Hunt, Gather, Parent. Utkarsh Narang (45:14.072) you Linda (45:19.426) that talks a lot about involving children in chores when they're little. And that's something that we've forgotten. We talk a lot about children should be playing, which I'm all about. But I think in our culture, we've also forgotten maybe a little bit that children, you talking about role models and we are our children's role models. And they play by also by helping us and by pretending to do these, or not pretending, but to do these chores in their own way. Utkarsh Narang (45:23.032) Yeah. Linda (45:49.103) That's played to them too. So that part of our culture, I think is something that we need to revive. Because that's how it used to be before, when the whole family was involved in keeping the household. So that's one thing. then, yeah, so once you do start giving them screen time, Utkarsh Narang (45:57.112) Hmm. Linda (46:19.624) definitely put limits on it so that they're not just sitting hour after hour or use it. Don't use it as a way to calm a child that's upset, for example, because then it becomes a their go to for regulating their emotions. And that can sort of become a vicious cycle. So definitely with the younger children, better to watch a movie together. Utkarsh Narang (46:39.16) you Linda (46:48.558) and then let them lose on some device when you don't know exactly what they're watching or yeah. And then with smartphones, I feel like I made that mistake. I'm trying to tell parents of children today that don't give them the smartphone too soon. But when my kids were young, there also weren't a lot of other options. Today, I think there are... You know, so I just gave my kids my used phones, which is really common. But today I know there are phones that special, I mean, phone companies that specialize in some sort of simpler version of a phone where, because I understand parents want to be able to get a hold of their children. That's also one way you can give them more autonomy, right? By giving them a phone, you know you have a way of getting a hold of them so that, you know, then they... Utkarsh Narang (47:20.77) Mmm. Linda (47:45.603) they can ride their bike to the neighborhood park because they're always within reach, right? And so you can have that phone with limitations so that they're not out on the internet accessing who knows what. think in general, think as parents, we tend to worry about the wrong things for our children. We worry about... Utkarsh Narang (48:09.56) you Linda (48:13.374) them being abducted from the park, even though that is so rare that it's not even like statistically relevant, of course, always terrible when things happen. but most of these violent acts against children are actually perpetuated by people, unfortunately, who are either family or close to the family, statistically speaking. And then. Utkarsh Narang (48:21.752) Mm. Linda (48:40.534) we don't worry enough about the dangers that they may encounter online. So I think it's important to sort of to think about that. And like I said, delay the smartphone introduction as long as you can. And also try to hold out that early screen time because yeah, you're fixing the issue in the moment, but you may create a more Utkarsh Narang (48:46.082) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (48:55.64) Mm. Linda (49:10.304) a bigger problem in the long run. So, and then of course the screen time policy is constantly evolving as your children get older. You have to start giving them a little more or have to, but as they get older, usually you give them a little more freedom in terms of handling these devices. And I know of families who've gone like zero. Utkarsh Narang (49:13.208) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (49:19.032) Yeah. Linda (49:37.167) Yeah, like zero screen time until, I mean, there's a strong movement in the US right now for delaying smartphones till age 14 and no social media till 16. And it's gonna be interesting to see how that all turns out. And if the pendulum is actually about to swing back. I think my oldest, my daughter's generation, it almost seems like a big. Utkarsh Narang (49:39.585) Mm. Utkarsh Narang (49:47.554) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (49:52.94) Yeah. Yeah. Linda (50:05.93) experiment. didn't really know. My oldest daughter, she was born the same year as the first iPhone came out. So she's part of that first, very first crop of children. And it almost feels like it's when, you know, my parent generation with the smoking when I was little, my dad still smoked in the car when I was in the car. And we were talking about not having any regrets earlier and Utkarsh Narang (50:07.394) Mm-hmm. Utkarsh Narang (50:13.195) Wow. Utkarsh Narang (50:17.687) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (50:29.464) Hmm. Linda (50:35.198) That's something that he regrets today. And today, I mean, I wouldn't dream of doing that to my children and most people wouldn't. And I think there might be a day when we look back at the way our kids interacted with these smartphones and we'll look back at that and think, my gosh, what were we thinking? Utkarsh Narang (50:37.368) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (50:57.903) Wow, that hits really deep because what we're not realizing is that what smoking did in that era or alcohol or whatever and smoking is more, it allows the other person in the vicinity to have that passive impact as well. Could technology be doing that same? It's a big question to ask. But I'm really, I'm really, curious how we also connect this to the people who are in their 20s and 30s also, Linda, because I see that generation still there. I think I can feel free to use the word addicted to technology in so many ways, right? Because it's an infinite scroll. The algorithm is the algorithm gods are waiting for you to appease to them and do as they're seeking you to do. That's one. And then it also builds that all you know is what you see. And so that confirmation bias starts to build and this idea that you spoke about that yes, in the moment it might solve a thing by giving a child a phone, but in the long term, it's impacting them so deeply. How do you see that connect to this 30s range that I'm speaking about? Like, how do they overcome this Linda? Because we all know that it's not good for us. We all know that scrolling on Instagram for two hours is not the most productive use of is not the right use of time, not even productive. I should not use the word productive and Instagram together. But how do you make this, make people understand this because they feel that's what it is. Linda (52:32.076) Yeah, it's, mean, the apps are designed to get us hooked. I mean, there are so many triggers in there that are just, yeah, feeding our dopamine addiction. And I'm not immune to that either. I get drawn in, especially in times when, at times when there's a lot going on in the world and it's very easy to get sucked. Utkarsh Narang (52:38.701) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (52:46.39) Yeah. Yeah. Linda (52:59.582) into social media and to start, like sometimes I'll just start reading people's comments on things and after five, 10 minutes go by and I'm thinking, what am I doing? Stop. So one thing that I've done and that I highly recommend anybody who feels like their screen time is out of control is I've put limits on my own phone actually, partly to model it to my children, but also from like really for my own sake because Utkarsh Narang (53:10.616) Yeah. Linda (53:28.154) I feel like I can feel it affecting my well-being when I'm on screen, like my phone all the time and especially with the social media and I'm a news addict. I have like four or five different news outlets installed on my phone and when there's a lot going on, like I go through them compulsively one after the other and eventually it's just like, no, just put it down and Utkarsh Narang (53:47.928) you Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Linda (53:57.849) you know, get out a book and read instead. Because one thing that I've felt myself is my attention span getting affected. Like, I think reading is something that you have to keep practicing throughout life, considering the given, the climate that we have now with social media, because it's so many quick fixes on social media that Utkarsh Narang (54:01.302) Yeah. Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (54:10.018) Yeah, 100%. Linda (54:26.99) our brains, they call it popcorn brain, that where it's hard to focus on, when it's hard to focus on a longer, more difficult task. And so I've made a point to read, I try to do it little every night, partly to model it to my children, but also to practice holding that attention. And yeah, so that's my advice for the... Utkarsh Narang (54:30.104) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (54:44.962) Yeah. Linda (54:54.872) for the adults who feel like they are maybe spending a little too much time on their devices. Utkarsh Narang (55:01.662) Beautiful. Love it. Love it. I think so here's how we are summarizing this. So if you are someone who has young kids or kids who are growing up, I think it's time you role model this because the only way you can beat screen time is to give them green time. And the only way you can inspire them to have green time is by doing it yourself. Because if you don't do it, they're not going to do it because what they're learning with you and and I'm at fault as well. So I'm not saying that Any of us who are listening or the two speakers who are speaking right now are, are, are all without false. Both Linda and I have shared our own, uh, voices, uh, very openly and thoughtfully today, but it's important that you role model this behavior because that's the only way I always get into this almost argument Linda with my kids because they feel like I'm on the laptop for, for, for a long, but I tell them like, that's my work. If I don't do eight to 10 hours of work right now, it's not going to be possible, but, that's. Linda (55:55.342) Mm-hmm. Utkarsh Narang (56:00.764) little hard for them to understand yet. So continue that conversation. That's one. Second, make it easy for you. Put some limits on your phone. Create some habits that are easy. Surround yourself with people who can allow you to have more of this green time than the screen time so that you build the resilience that we spoke about. you build the habits that you're achieving and delay, delay, delay as much as you can delay as Linda was saying. That's the best. Linda (56:24.706) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (56:28.728) At the end, what I'm also thinking, and I speak about it a lot because you can either be a creator or a consumer. And if you consume a book or consume the right things, that's absolutely okay. But if you go on a consumption spree, just because an app is making you feel that the dopamine in your body is increasing because of watching that content, then something's got to change. Something's got to change. Yeah. Linda (56:54.062) I think you summarized that well. Utkarsh Narang (56:57.624) beautiful. As we as we've gone through this journey, we started with that eight year old Linda, we spoke about we spoke about childhood can be tough and from there everything has opened up Linda. But now as we look at the next and you said I think you were 47. So next 33 years, imagine Linda, I take you to that future 33 and you don't we can't predict the future. But 33 years from now, if that 80 year old Linda were to come to you right now. Linda (57:18.626) Yeah. Linda (57:27.086) Yeah, I do, I mean, I do think about this sometimes, what, and maybe it's just because I'm past middle age at this point. And I do hope that when I'm 80, that I will feel like I've lived a full life and taken all the chances that were presented to me. I think one of the hardest things that I imagine that I will grapple with is whether I did enough. Because I've been, since I was very young, very passionate about the environment and animals and wildlife. I've been a vegetarian since I was eight. And my whole life, I've just sort of wanted to dedicate to make it, like I wanna be sure that I leave this world. knowing that I did everything that I could to contribute in a positive way to all the challenges that we're seeing right now. It's hard raising children in this current environment. I feel like they're, with climate change and pollution and... Yeah, I definitely, I think for many years when I lived in the US, I was a little more passive on all these issues. I was trying to fit in and now, but now that I moved back to Sweden, I'm sort of, found my voice and, know, in publishing my books, I've found my voice. And so I hope that I will be able to keep doing that and feel like I really did everything that I could by the time I'm old. And at the same time, I hope that my Utkarsh Narang (59:07.809) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (59:17.656) Mm. Linda (59:21.07) 80 year old self, I think she would tell me to stop and smell the roses sometimes too, because I tend to get into these work sprees when I have a hard time like cutting myself some slack sometimes. Like I work hard and I don't I almost don't remember the last time I took a vacation without my laptop, bringing my laptop. So those would probably be, that would probably be the conversation that would unfold, I think, between the older me and my current me. Utkarsh Narang (01:00:05.112) Yeah. Thank you for sharing. was so honest and thoughtful of you, Linda, to share that. And I think to everyone who's building a life, and hopefully we all reach 80 years old and beyond, often joke with my kids that I'm going to live to 120 and I'm not going to leave you. I'm going to keep telling you not to use your devices and this and that. But to everyone who's building a life out there, building a life that will be worth living. it's OK to stop and smell the roses because it's worth it. And while you do that, have that view of that future self so that when he or she or they arrive, they're like, yes, you did well. did well. Beautiful. Thank you. Yeah, it's all about balance. And it's a tough cookie to crack because balance is really hard to achieve. Thank you, for your time. Linda (01:00:50.56) Yeah, it's all about balance. Linda (01:01:00.195) It is. Utkarsh Narang (01:01:03.532) to listeners who are listening on a podcast platform, leave a comment, share this episode with someone who you think would love listening to what Linda has spoke about. And if you're on YouTube, we have to appease to the algorithm gods of YouTube. So like and then share and subscribe and put a comment down there as to what did you take away. Thanks again Linda, thoroughly enjoyed the conversation. Linda (01:01:16.878) You Linda (01:01:24.12) Thank you so much. Thank you for having me. It was wonderful to talk to you. Utkarsh Narang (01:01:28.76) Absolutely, same here. So we stay. Beautiful. Thank you for that wonderful conversation. I thoroughly enjoyed it, Linda. Linda (01:01:36.47) Yeah. Yeah. So when do you think you will publish the episode? Utkarsh Narang (01:01:43.862) I think it should be between two to four weeks. Yeah. The team decides as to what order they want to take based on some recency, some algorithm and some, how many episodes we have. have about six episodes that we have already shot for the future. Like the Saturday one will release. But maybe there are more questions that I want to kind of quickly ask you. And we don't know yet how we'll use them, but basically one is why do you think someone should watch this episode? Linda (01:02:08.014) Mm-hmm. Utkarsh Narang (01:02:13.215) So in one line, that's the question and you need to share an answer. So I'll go on, I'll pin you for that answer. So whenever you're ready, you can answer the question that if you are blah, blah, you should watch this blah, blah. Linda (01:02:15.832) Mm-hmm. Linda (01:02:30.606) Okay, for a one-liner, want to be really concise. Utkarsh Narang (01:02:35.266) Thank you. Linda (01:02:40.398) Yeah, okay then. I think I'm ready. Well, let's see. Linda (01:02:48.91) Okay, I'll improvise. Utkarsh Narang (01:02:50.786) Go for it. Linda (01:02:52.758) I think you should watch this episode or listen to this episode. Sorry, I'll start over. Should I say watch or listen? Utkarsh Narang (01:03:00.566) watch this episode. Linda (01:03:02.154) Okay, I think you should watch this episode if you feel like your children need more nature in their lives or if you need more nature in your life and you just don't have the tools or you feel like you need some tips for how to making it happen. Utkarsh Narang (01:03:25.048) Beautiful. In one line, who is Linda? Linda (01:03:31.788) That's the hardest question. Okay. I am a writer and author of two books, The Open Air Life and There's No Such Thing as Bad Weather. I'm also a mother of two children and live in Sweden. Utkarsh Narang (01:03:31.81) Take your time, take your time. It is, it is, but how do you introduce yourself? Utkarsh Narang (01:03:51.608) Beautiful. And the final question, if I were to send this next clip to a future guest that they should come to the podcast and have a conversation, what would you share with them that you should think of coming onto the Ignite and Neurons podcast? Because. Linda (01:04:10.094) This is an opportunity for you to really have some deeper conversations about topics that you... no. Utkarsh Narang (01:04:24.278) That's okay, that's okay. It was going really well, really well. Linda (01:04:32.574) Okay. You should have, you should, sorry. You should go on the Ignited Neurons podcast to get a chance to really delve deep into the issues, the things that you're passionate about and have a, now. Gosh. Is this going to be aired? Is this part going to be aired or is it going to be like, how are you going to use it? Utkarsh Narang (01:05:02.904) So all of this will be edited out. Just the last, once we have the right, that'll go on a website or somewhere where we can ask people to register for future conversations. Linda (01:05:06.016) Yeah, yeah, but I mean the sentence is gonna be... Linda (01:05:15.788) Okay. Utkarsh Narang (01:05:19.584) Like maybe just share about how your experience was Linda of this last 60 minutes of having a conversation with almost a stranger. Linda (01:05:19.842) Miss. Linda (01:05:26.722) Yeah. You should go on the Ignited Neurons pod. Sorry. Utkarsh Narang (01:05:35.224) You didn't have Linda (01:05:37.944) Mmm. Linda (01:05:43.426) You should go on the... This is just getting worse and worse. I'm like... Utkarsh Narang (01:05:46.612) should go on the podcast don't use the name you should be on the podcast because Linda (01:05:51.051) up. You should be on the podcast because it is an hour of really deep and thoughtful conversation with Utkarsh who is a great host and I think you'll enjoy it greatly. Utkarsh Narang (01:06:06.328) Beautiful. That's perfect. Linda (01:06:07.182) Sometimes I make things too complicated. Utkarsh Narang (01:06:11.384) We can have a deeper conversation on that, that's separate to this. But thanks again for your presence. I really enjoyed the conversation. I think we spoke about things that are really important for the current and the future generations. So hopefully the message will reach the right people at the right time in the right place. You have a great day. My teammate will reach out to you, for a bio and a few high resolution pictures that we can use for the thumbnail. Linda (01:06:24.055) Yeah. Linda (01:06:31.022) Yeah, perfect. Utkarsh Narang (01:06:39.548) And then when the podcast comes out, we'll send you the link. We will send you the clips that you can use wherever you want to. And they'll be on LinkedIn and on Instagram and YouTube and wherever the algorithm gods live, we'll be there. Thank you. And just don't close the window. I'll, yeah, you can mute and put your camera off. Linda (01:06:44.994) Perfect. Linda (01:06:51.18) Yeah, great. Great. Perfect. Thank you so much. yeah. Linda (01:07:02.123) Mm-hmm.