Utkarsh Narang (00:00.914) Welcome, Kim, to the conversation. I'm looking forward to this because it was just a while ago that you and I recorded a podcast when I was on yours. And so thank you for being here. Look forward to this conversation. Kim Payne (00:11.738) it's so fun now, you know, literally we've just swapped spots. So having got to know each other a little bit more, it will probably change the context of what we're going to dig into today. So I'm super excited about it. Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (00:22.652) Same here, absolutely. And the premise, the two bookend questions, as I call them for the podcast, that the first one we start with is, and we just want to kind of know who's behind the Kim that we see right now. And so if we were to go back a few years and have that eight-year-old little girl Kim, who was eight years, come to you right now, Kim, what kind of conversation do you think will emerge between you and her? Kim Payne (00:49.046) My little eight year old, this is funny actually because I was just at my mom's the other day showing her a photo of little Kim that I look at, you know, at times just when I'm trying to be grateful and stuff. And so this is actually a really interesting question. The little eight year old would look at me now and go, my goodness, how are you doing what you're doing? Where did you get the courage? Because... Utkarsh Narang (00:56.305) Mm-hmm. Kim Payne (01:14.878) I was such a shy and timid little girl, like incredibly painfully shy and timid. And if I was to see myself now doing the things I'm doing and even, you know, speaking on stages, my little Kim would literally put her hands over her mouth and go, my goodness, how are you doing that? So when I do do any sort of reflection on who I was as a child and where I am now, yeah, it's not what I would have. ever in my wildest dreams have imagined. So it's, it would be a very interesting conversation around, look at what you could do, even though you thought you were just that shy, timid little girl that always had to hide in the background. Utkarsh Narang (01:46.61) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (02:00.082) Hmm, hmm, that's interesting. There's a lot to unpack there. I'm gonna start with these two words, shy, timid. Tell me a little bit more about that. Was it how you were kind of raised? Was it the environment? Because I'm conflicted by this nature versus nurture kind of debate. So what led to that, that shy and timid to Kim? Kim Payne (02:20.194) Yeah, I didn't know. So my parents split when I was three. And so I lived with my mum full time, but saw my dad on weekends. Now, over the years, my mum and my dad were both ultra, ultra positive in your face kind of people, both in sales, both used to speak on microphones and on stages and had that very big presence. And when I would go down and see my dad, I don't know whether I felt Like I always wanted to be good enough for him, but I was just always shy and timid. So the bigger they were, I felt like the smaller I was. And I would literally just almost hide. I would literally hide, even though as time went by and what I've learned now through going back and doing a lot of personal development work is that I actually always wanted to be seen and heard by them. But I wasn't speaking up and I wasn't speaking out. And I was just... And it was very much in a generation too, Utkarsh, where it was kids are seen and not heard. And that wasn't them being mean or trying to suppress anything. That's just the generation that I grew up in. So I've got a very, very loud voice. My father has a very, very loud voice. I've, my mum's often said to me over the years, you're so lucky because you're always heard. And I've often turned around and said, but I'm only heard when I use it. And I spent a lot of my growing up not using my voice at all. And really trying to always then be the perfect good girl. Like I was that classic textbook case of you want your father's validation and the way you get it is through achievement. So the better the grades, so then I chased the grades. I chased the perfection. I didn't just wanna be in the sports team. I wanted to be in the A team and I wanted to be the captain. Utkarsh Narang (03:59.73) Mm. Utkarsh Narang (04:17.042) Hmm. Kim Payne (04:17.516) I didn't just want the A grade, I wanted the A plus grade and I wanted to be at the top of the grade. And I was that kid. So, but in doing all of that, there was kind of like that conforming to the goody two shoes. I'm going to call myself a goody two shoes because my brother used to call me that. There was a lot of that and just that shy and timid. And I really only believe that I've come out of my shell, even though I do a lot of public speaking, I really believe I've only come out of my shell in the last sort of 10. Utkarsh Narang (04:34.502) Mm. Mm. Utkarsh Narang (04:43.154) Mm-hmm. Kim Payne (04:46.786) really 10 years, so, and I'm now 53, so, it was a long time wearing that Timid and shy badge. Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (04:50.192) You Utkarsh Narang (04:54.052) Yeah, it's very powerful. The statement you just said, and I'm going to skip a few decades when I ask you this next question, as big as they were, the smaller you were. It's a very powerful statement. And so how does that reflect now in your parenting? And I know you have kids, so can tell a little bit on that, but how does that reflect in your parenting now, Kim Payne (05:05.208) Mmm. Kim Payne (05:15.918) So, very, very different. I think one of the things that I'm very, very deliberate about in my parenting is I want my kids to have a voice. I want them to be heard to the point where, you know, like if you've got to go to someone's house, so I've got to, they're going to a kid's house, they've never met the parents and they kind of want me to go first. They want me to stand at the front door and open and welcome and all of that. And I'm like, no, you need to stand at the front. So, and this comes from... I never did that as a little girl. I don't want them to be like that. And one of them, I've got two sons, one son has a loud voice, one son's got a quiet voice. And I'm very conscious, like I hate being told to keep quiet or keep my voice down. And even though we do need to tell my son that, I'm very conscious of saying, I want you to use your voice. I want you to speak up when something's not right. If you're at a restaurant and you don't like the meal. you can still politely say that this is what's not right or this is what I'd like different. You can do it politely, but don't feel like you want to say something and hold back. So I absolutely believe that my experiences and how I grew up, I just want to do it differently for my children. So they don't, some of them want the challenges. I don't want them to experience them, although they'll have their own, they've got their own lives, but I don't want that one to be one of them. Utkarsh Narang (06:21.362) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (06:36.498) Mm. Yeah. It brings me to a very interesting kind of cultural divide that I've also observed, Kim, because I've come to Australia only two years ago now. And so, and when I coach people who are, say, from the US or from India versus Australia, in India, we specifically see this, that this conformity that you're talking about, this keep your voice down. It's really a massive cultural kind of learning that we've had while growing up. And so, Kim Payne (06:48.195) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (07:07.728) Now I also see managers who, or employees who cannot go and talk to their managers and cannot kind of, not even raise, not even kind of raise their voice, but just kind of share their opinion. How do you kind of navigate that and how do you see that play first, maybe on the, on the cultural side between say, maybe you've worked with folks across the world. So how does that play out in your experience? Kim Payne (07:31.682) It's a really interesting one because also, and I know that I don't want to stereotype based on gender, but also as a female and I've worked in financial services for 30 years. So very, very heavily male dominated. And so I would often be the only woman or one of very few women in a room. So I've already grown up believing that you need to be seen, not heard. Then I've got the intimidation, not intimidation, but not using my voice. So I would literally be sitting at a table, I would have ideas or thoughts or input I wanted to bring to the conversation. And I just stay quiet. I wouldn't speak up and This went on for years and actually probably the first 20 years of my professional life. I would eventually speak up, but it would usually be because I was then asked, okay, Kim, well, what do you think? As opposed to me volunteering what I really did think. And it took me doing a lot of personal development work for me to get the courage to even just say what I want to say. And I've spent most of my life trying to avoid conflict, trying to avoid difficult conversations, Utkarsh Narang (08:28.53) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (08:33.915) Hmm. Kim Payne (08:43.904) trying to please everyone else ahead of myself and to my own detriment. Utkarsh Narang (08:48.946) Mm. Kim Payne (08:49.474) And then once I started doing some personal development and growing an inner confidence and an inner worth within myself, then I started feeling more comfortable to use my own voice. even a big part of the work I do now is helping women use their own voices, particularly women. And that doesn't mean just getting on a stage and doing public speaking. It means just thinking about what you want and being okay to ask for that or being okay to say no to something because it doesn't fit Utkarsh Narang (09:00.306) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (09:04.752) Yeah. Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (09:14.726) Yeah. Kim Payne (09:19.408) with what you're doing without having to justify why you're saying no. So definitely has influenced even not only who I am today, but the work that I do and how I wanna take some of my own personal experiences growing up and not let others have to go through that same sort of pain if I can avoid it at any cost. Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (09:24.304) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (09:37.82) Correct. Yeah, it's very interesting because I think there's a lot of unlearning to do, right? Because this idea of seeking validation, this idea of being able to kind of please others, they're so core to this identity of this generation. think that, again, not labeling any generation per se, but I think that 70s to maybe the late 80s. And then nineties, I think something started to shift where, where that generation is able to voice their thoughts, thoughts more loudly. You again, again, are speaking to this idea of personal development. And I know I have to come back to your story and we have to get into like, how did you end up being in financial services? And was that the dream? But this idea of personal development, you know, my kind of hypothesis to this is Kim, that until and unless someone's ready to shift things about themselves, no one can force them to do anything. Kim Payne (10:32.462) Mm. Utkarsh Narang (10:35.43) How do you break that barrier? Kim Payne (10:38.302) That's really a joke, which I had have known that answer many, many years ago. I left the corporate world after 20 years and started my own business when, I'd left, gone on maternity leave, had my first son and at night when he was nine months old, I went and started my own business, which in all honesty, I should have started years and years earlier. Okay. But I didn't, I wanted to wait till I had all the skills and more knowledge and cause I'd never run a business before. So again, that was a really big learning. Utkarsh Narang (10:44.562) Hmm. Kim Payne (11:06.274) So when I started my own business, I've always had coaches and I got business coaches and I would get them to come in and help me with the business, because I wanted to do it right again, the whole seeking perfection all the time, the crippling seeking of perfection. And I would get them to come in and they'd start working with me and then they would go back and say, okay, let's just explore what went on in your childhood. And I'd be like, no, no, no, no. Utkarsh Narang (11:10.79) Mm-hmm. Utkarsh Narang (11:19.58) Hmm. Kim Payne (11:32.3) I mean, he'd get you to help me work on my business, not me. And when they wouldn't comply, I would sack them. So I sacked three coaches. Sounds brutal, but kindly. Then I got this last one and just having some conversations with him, I'm going to mold his words to suit how I interpreted it. And it was, Kim, you build a better business when you build a better you. And I went, Utkarsh Narang (11:41.254) Ha ha ha ha. It does. Kim Payne (12:02.062) fruit. How did I miss that? And so that is actually what started me down that whole personal development rabbit hole. going back to what you said, how do you break that barrier? I wish I had have known this earlier. I wish there had to be some some program or some YouTube channel or some podcast that shared that but they didn't exist back then. Utkarsh Narang (12:03.154) Hmm. Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (12:13.81) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (12:18.642) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (12:23.43) Yeah. Yeah. Kim Payne (12:26.082) But I found out that the hub, I then went and apologized to all the other coaches and said, I finally get it. But that set me down on a journey of, and even as a leader that if I get to know who I am, how I operate, how I show up in the world, what's really going on inside, I'm actually going to be better on the outside. I'm going to build a better business. I'm going to be a better leader. I'm going to be a better human. Utkarsh Narang (12:43.506) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (12:49.488) Yeah. Yeah. Kim Payne (12:49.87) full stop and since that day and that would have been 2011. Yeah, so it's probably 14 years ago if I do the maths and yeah, but that's what set me off on that path. Utkarsh Narang (12:55.761) Wow. Utkarsh Narang (13:04.742) Yeah, powerful. And it seems so simple, right? You work on yourself and the better you'll be able to serve the world. And it still is so difficult. And I think what I kind of, if I do like a root cause analysis of this, think the A, the awareness is low. And the reason for the awareness being low is that we very uncomfortable, Kim, in sitting down with ourselves. And I was at a birthday party, so we were invited on Sunday. Kim Payne (13:10.292) Thank Yeah! Kim Payne (13:16.974) Mmm. Utkarsh Narang (13:33.054) And these are people who I would meet maybe once or twice a year. And doing that small talk makes me so uncomfortable. I go to one group and they're talking about middle-aged men like me trying to take care of their hair. And I don't want to that conversation. I might go bald next year. And then I go to another one and they're talking about the bills, the cost of living in Australia. Like, I don't even want to have that conversation. Let me go to the side and just observe kids playing on the trampoline. And it's very hard, but what makes it difficult, do think? And how have you kind of overcome it? These conversations with yourself, what makes them so difficult? Kim Payne (14:08.76) What makes them difficult? find just on that note, find small talk really difficult. I find it really, I find it hard. find it painful. I find it draining and I just want to get out of there. Maybe what finds it so difficult is because you've really got to reach in and see the truth. And I think this truth scares us. I know that over the years that in order to get to know who I am and have those conversations and I'm at a point now where you know probably like you do and I know this through our conversations I love meditating I love being silent I love being on my own also to use a label for the benefit of the label being it I'm a very very much a classic introvert which means I energize from within I need to have my own time in order to get my energy back but it is very much about I've got to be honest with myself. I can't just put on a facade, put on a mask, going in, I've got to be truthful. And I think that's scary. And I know that a lot of people who start on the path and go, no, I don't want to go there. And I was speaking to someone just recently and... the things that are showing up in their life right now, they know stem from challenges when they were growing up. And they said, I don't want to deal with it because I don't want to open that can of worms because I'm scared of actually facing what really happened. So yeah, I think there is certainly an element of truth. And I know at times when I have to look in and go, come on, what's the cause of this? Even little something like at the moment I've got a stiff neck, right? There's no reason I have a stiff neck. Utkarsh Narang (15:26.566) Wow. Utkarsh Narang (15:34.299) Yeah. Kim Payne (15:39.734) So I've gone, I love Louise Hayes work around healing your body and that. instead of thinking, okay, what have I physically done to cause a stiff neck? I'll go, okay, what's going on inside you? How are you reacting? How are you behaving that's causing the stiff neck? And I've worked that out. So I'm working on that as opposed to running straight to the physio or the car or the ball tower and or anything. But that means I've got to face some truths. Utkarsh Narang (15:55.783) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Kim Payne (16:08.495) And don't always like what that looks like, but yeah. Utkarsh Narang (16:11.462) Yeah. The truth scares us. I think I'm with you on that. And we don't realize sometimes how the inner being is kind of impacting the outer being. And I know there's a lot of research on gut health. There's a lot of research on how mental health impacts us physically. But I think I've observed, as you were saying, that there are so many things that happen within us. And if we were to kind of go down to them and resolve those, everything on the outside would become much better. Typically when I'm in these podcast conversations, I take notes and then I keep bold making things bold so that I don't forget to go back to them. I'll pause that part of the journey, but help me understand what happened that that shy, timid came, grew up and went into financial services. Where did that journey unfold? Kim Payne (16:50.339) Yes. Kim Payne (16:59.23) interesting actually because when I was a little girl I wanted to be a dancer and a doctor okay yeah so if I can just tell you what why I didn't become a dancer when I got to it this is interesting you asked me at the very beginning about the eight-year-old me I love dancing when I got to about nine or ten when dancing started to become a little bit more serious my arms don't straighten right now Utkarsh Narang (17:06.706) That's a good combination. I agree with that. Kim Payne (17:28.96) in everyday life has no bearing whatsoever. But when you're a dancer in a lineup and your arms don't straighten, the dance teacher used to say to me, Kim, straighten your arms, straighten your arms. And I'm like, they are straight. They are straight. Anyway, what they found out is just the way my elbows are joined. They're not joined properly, which means they can't straighten. Now, back in the 1970s when this was discovered, Instead of saying, well, you know, there's other roles that you can play in dancing. It's like, no, you're never going to be a dancer. You're not even moving up to the next level. Like my dream of being a dancer was completely shattered. And I often talk about, I took the dream, I put it in the locket and I buried it deep inside my heart. Only to there's lots more to that story, but I'll jump straight back onto this. But I'd always wanted to do medicine as well. I wanted to be a doctor. I wanted to help people. And when I was 16, we lived in Sydney. Utkarsh Narang (18:16.274) Hmm. Kim Payne (18:23.126) and I did my work experience at a hospital. And after a week of doing that, which I found quite confronting. And plus, if I'm being honest, my surname is Payne. So I would have been Dr. Payne. So that's all really cute. But I then moved from Sydney back to Melbourne. And when I moved back to Melbourne going into year 11 and 12, so I was doing all the sciences, the phys, the chem, the maths, which was right up my alley. I needed a fifth subject. And the only one that fit with my curriculum Utkarsh Narang (18:37.03) you Kim Payne (18:52.822) was going to be either a literature or something arty or economics. Now I didn't know anything about economics. All I knew is I didn't want anything Englishy or literacy. So I chose economics and honestly, I fell in love with it. Absolutely. Cause I already loved math science. I liked that. I didn't know there was some logic to it. I just loved it. And so from Utkarsh Narang (19:03.346) Hmm. Kim Payne (19:17.774) doing economics in year 11, when I finished school, instead of going off and doing medicine, I actually did economics and I pursued that path. So it was more by default, but it tapped into something that really licked me from within. So that's how I ended up in financial services as opposed to medicine, which is what my dream had been. Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (19:31.698) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (19:38.226) So economics kind of happened to you. it also kind of, I'm just thinking through this. So my elder one plays the drums and he's been playing for about 10 years now. If he would have been in India, which we are lucky that we are here in Australia, then he would have gone through his own curriculum, which we follow in India, right? But here in Victoria, there is a school, a called the Victorian College of Arts. And he got into that through the audition and everything. And we realized that... Kim Payne (19:43.822) Right. Kim Payne (20:01.719) Yes. Utkarsh Narang (20:08.142) Imagine him now having the opportunity to play with all these amazing kids and mentors in that space. And it would not have happened if we would have not been to Melbourne. And that would not have happened if something else would not have happened. And this whole domino effect that again, we're going back to that spirituality, right? The universe is nudging economics back to Dr. Payne that she needs to get into financial services. Kim Payne (20:33.806) Absolutely and actually over the years in financial services and coaching a lot of financial advisors and those in that space I'm often referred to as doc So, you know, they just call me doc and it kind of was fit It's even on my website that and I often just pardon the pun here, but I'll often say with pain you gain pain spelt PAYNE not P-A-I-N so, you know, I have a bit of fun with it, but yeah, that's that's it's interesting and Utkarsh Narang (20:57.658) I love that. Kim Payne (21:01.942) So glad that your son is able to pursue something that he really, really wants that maybe from an old school point of view or a cultural point of view back where you're in India, might not have been acceptable for him to try, especially at such a young age when expectation from family, society, culture, and that can completely overrule at that age. It's really, really powerful that he can. Utkarsh Narang (21:22.8) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And what that, so one thing before I forget, it should be a LinkedIn headline with the pain you gain. love that. We should definitely put that there. But you know, on this idea of allowing him and maybe him choosing this career, you know what this comes down to? And I don't know if we've spoken about this. I used to be a physical therapist, right? Right. So now he asked me, dad, you have a degree. Kim Payne (21:33.388) Yeah, yeah, Kim Payne (21:45.472) Yes, yes. Utkarsh Narang (21:49.392) and you don't use it. So why do you push me on education so much? And I agree with that. And so I tell them, you should be able to speak well, you should be able to calculate well, because that's a skill that you would need forever. And you should be, when you go and talk to people, you should leave them with an impression that they remember you rather than anything else. And if you then pursue whatever skill you want to, go ahead and make that happen. So that's one. And then this whole idea that, again, my wife, someone who, loves music. even back in India, we would like, oh, we wish our son grows up to become a musician. And then everyone would question us like, what's wrong with both of you? You know how struggles musicians go through, but that's also a form of expression. And so if they want to choose that, who's going to stop them? Kim Payne (22:32.942) Oh, absolutely. And I love though that, you know, we've grown up a certain way, right? We had expectations put on us, but that we are able to now say to our kids, hey, if this is the thing you want to give a go, then give it a go. do that for him and for you and your wife to be able to say, hey, we'd love that child to be a musician. Stereotypically musicians struggle, but that doesn't mean he will. Or it might become a side gig for him or a side hustle, but you're letting him make those choices. And I think that's a really big driver nowadays. And I've got two sons, but my eldest is going into year 10 and he's really quite exceptional academically. Utkarsh Narang (22:56.454) Exactly. Utkarsh Narang (23:00.208) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (23:16.146) Mm-hmm. Kim Payne (23:16.418) So all my family are like, well, you he'll go on and go to uni and do this. And I'm like, at this rate, no. And they're like, well, how could you allow that? And it's like, because I want him to be him. And if that doesn't mean going to uni, if that means going out and finding what really truly lights him up, and he might find it over and over and over again. I would support that. Like I've always said to my kids, if you ever want to hurt me, live a really unhappy life. Utkarsh Narang (23:25.276) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (23:37.68) Yeah. Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (23:46.332) Powerful. Kim Payne (23:46.478) If you want to make me happy, make yourself happy, which is actually really good for you. And if that means experimenting, because going back to me saying I was shy and timid and chasing perfection, I feel like I always played it safe for so long and I didn't experiment. I didn't think give things a go because I thought, if I could fail or I wouldn't be the best, then I'm not even going to attempt it. Utkarsh Narang (24:05.33) Hmm. Kim Payne (24:12.076) So, and again, that comes back to how I parent that I don't want my kids to do that. I don't want you to choose subjects because you're gonna get the best grade in them. I want you to choose subjects that you're interested in that allow you to explore your curiosity. And you know what, if you get a grade, great, great. But if you don't, great. And then if you don't wanna push you when you wanna do something, do that because that's not how we were raised. And even now, Utkarsh Narang (24:12.252) correct. Kim Payne (24:37.72) would Utkarsh I speak to so many people who were doing things because they've always done it. They don't like it, they're miserable. And the amount of clients I get that come to me saying, seriously, like I'm in my mid 40s, late 40s, there's gotta be more to life than this. But I don't know anything else that's like, okay. So yeah, it's a different world. And thank goodness it is because I see, you know, those that are allowing themselves to explore and do things like. Utkarsh Narang (25:04.626) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Breaks my heart to see that, that you're say you're in your late forties or early fifties and you feel like, what the hell did my life stand for and where am I going? Because you're, mean, technically you're in the, the, the, the final 50 years, maybe hopefully. And, uh, and that's how I believe, but I'm going to kind of pause and have a listeners kind of freely, uh, get Kim Payne (25:05.25) Good on you, go and do it and do it you're young so you don't have time to go, I wish I had it. Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (25:32.274) get themselves a diary and pen if they're not taking notes right now, because what you said about for your son, for him to be him and doing what lights him up, I think that is such an important thing. And to anyone who's listening, Kimar listeners are in that age group of 30 to 45. And so I tell them that go be you because there's such joy in that being you and whatever challenges then come your way, just be happy with them because you get to be you while you're solving those challenges. And it's, it's, it's, it's a blessing. It's a blessing. Kim Payne (26:00.366) That's totally a blessing. And Dr. Joe Dispenza has a beautiful quote. I'm gonna screw it up, but you're gonna get the gist. And it says, who you are on the inside is who you show up as, you are truly free. And I just love that. And again, I might've got the wording wrong, but I've got the gist of it. I love that because so much. And again, it's hard because it's the truth of who you are. But when who you are on the inside and... Even something as simple as for me, for example, I love wearing colour. But I spent the first 30 years in financial services wearing navy, grey, black, pinstripes, would never have worn coloured lipstick or bright earrings or a bright red t-shirt, ever. And it took me that long to get to the point that inside, because I'm quite a bubbly, know, excitable person and colour reflects that. Utkarsh Narang (26:31.079) Hmm. Kim Payne (26:52.963) But it took me so long, like literally only the last 10 years when I've started to embrace even something as simple as wearing colour and being who I am. So I love that you do this work as well and getting them younger too. Don't wait till you're in your 50s or 60s to work this out. Really realise that there's something golden that sits inside and if you can bring that out and live life that way, that's freedom. Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (27:00.05) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (27:07.78) yes. Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (27:18.99) It is, is. Freedom is another one of my values. And I think I've done enough experiments in life. And every time I reflect on this, that I'm seeking freedom. I'm seeking freedom. And I think that's important. I'm going to have us kind of skip through the financial services phase, but what I'm really intrigued and would love to know more, what led to that tipping point? Because there has to be something. And for some it's a big event. For some it's like that gradual dissatisfaction that something's got to give. What was it for you that allowed you to kind of break away from that shy intimate break away from that seeking validation break away from that financial services identity to this new identity because it's not easy. I know that Kim, but yeah, what was it for you? Kim Payne (28:03.668) I know exactly what it is now. I didn't at the time, but around sort of 47, 48, I got to the point where I was hating my work. I was resenting my clients and I just wasn't happy. Not in anything like yes, reasonably, you know, happy disposition and nobody else would have known, but deep inside and I started questioning what's going on, et cetera, et cetera. Utkarsh Narang (28:06.556) Hmm. Kim Payne (28:31.468) I went to the doctors about this a number of times and they kept saying, you've got depression or you've got this or you've got that. And I'm like, no, not that I had it before, I didn't think, you know, that I just didn't think that's what it was. Anyway, long story short, and I don't know if this is a very relevant conversation, but it was perimenopause. And what was happening is all those changes were going on. Utkarsh Narang (28:50.834) Hmm. Kim Payne (28:55.982) It wasn't until I had a female doctor by default one day, because my normal doctor wasn't there and she diagnosed it. But, I, and it was quite a challenging time dealing with a lot of the changes, nothing to do with the stereotypical changes that we know about. But what it really did, and once we got me on some medication to help with that, which has been completely life saving, but it really gave me the chance to go. What do I really want? What's really important to me? I've always been very, very clear on what my values are. But how can I then bring more of that into my world? So that it was a tipping point. And for anyone who is a little bit woo woo, I kind of call it, you know, the dark night of the soul. But that moment was the best moment. And what happened was the best thing that ever happened to me, because it allowed me to explore what really made me happy. What sort of work did I really want to do? What are the, and obviously a lot of personal development and awareness that came through, what are my strengths? What's my skill set? And what do I want to be doing for the next 10, 20, 30 years of my life? Cause it wasn't what I was doing. So that set me on a, probably an even deeper inner journey that I then brought to that. And I'll be honest, it was a hard time because I, if you think about a pendulum and the pendulum's all one, you know, up. Utkarsh Narang (30:01.607) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (30:06.886) Hmm. Kim Payne (30:17.71) being held at the top, right? That was me in financial services. When I went through this change, it literally slung completely the opposite direction to then really getting into helping and empowering women and dealing with their self-confidence and their self-worth. No one in my family could comprehend why I was blowing up a perfectly decent career in business in financial services to pursue something so different when I'm now in my 50s. Like seriously, Kim, what are you doing? Utkarsh Narang (30:41.35) Mmm. Utkarsh Narang (30:45.392) Yeah. Yeah. Kim Payne (30:47.18) What happened since then is the pendulum. it was all up one way, swung the other direction. Now it's come somewhere in the middle, which is a combination of my world of finance and business, my world around confidence and empowerment that's come from all the work I did with women. And now it's somewhere in between. So, and that has helped me. I'm still going to take the title of introvert. So I still like to energize by myself. Utkarsh Narang (31:04.636) Hmm. Kim Payne (31:15.778) Don't like being in large crowds. Love to get on a stage, but then when I get off, I want to run to the loo and be on my own. But I think all of this has definitely helped me be that, you know, I often say I've gone from that shy, timid little girl to a very worthy and valuable woman. And it has been a journey. It's my journey and I'm still on that journey and I love all of it. Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (31:21.234) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (31:32.988) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (31:38.95) Yeah. Beautiful. As you speak about, you know, these journeys are, I know what the right word is, maybe empowering comes to mind, maybe revealing comes to mind, you know, but they're really hard journeys to take because while you're taking those journeys, while the pendulum is swinging, you're like, what the hell did I do to myself? And that's the big thought, right? And that fear stops people to be courageous. And so if you were to be guiding someone, a man, a woman, whoever that might be, what would be like one big tip or one big really like key action or maybe more that they can start to do right now that over a period of say six weeks, six months, six years has the capability of helping them reach that tipping point. Kim Payne (32:25.774) So something that really helped me over the years too, and my mum used to do this to me all the time when I was growing up and it's something I now do to my clients, is when I'm thinking of something I want and the fear is greater and that, you know, the courage hasn't come in to topple the fear yet, or even just to be that 1 % greater. She always used to say to me, what's the worst that could happen? And it was so powerful. And even something as simple as when I was going for my driver's license when I was 18 and... At this stage, all my friends had got theirs. And so I was, and again, trying to be perfect. couldn't dare fail my driver's test and got myself all worked up in a state. And mum would literally sit me down and say, Kim, what's the worst that can happen? And the worst is that you're not here, right? Something happens and you're not alive anymore. So then we would work backwards and finally my driver's just sort of almost became insignificant. And so, you know, when I am even, when I'm doing my coaching and probably like with you, Utkarsh Narang (32:59.378) Mm. Kim Payne (33:20.758) If there is something you wanna do, it's like, what is the worst that can happen? And this is another thing that I've, you know, I do a lot when I am working in this space. So I'll often be talking to someone about what is it that they want? Maybe they've got a dream that they've had on ice or maybe there's something they wanna do. And I get them to talk about what's stopping you. And they tell me a whole host of things that are stopping them. I'm too old, I'm too unskilled, would my family think? What would my friends think? I've got this money coming, blah, blah, right? Utkarsh Narang (33:40.978) Hmm. Kim Payne (33:50.518) respectfully, they share all of these reasons, some of them are excuses, some of them are reasons. And then I'll say, okay, what's stopping you? And you see them pause, you see them kind of look in and every single time they'll say, I'm scared. It's the fear. And so then I say, okay, so if you don't give this thing at least a go, I'm not saying... Utkarsh Narang (34:00.882) Hmm. Kim Payne (34:17.602) you know, make it a success. But if you don't even give it a go, and I mean, that go could be just as something as simple as Googling how I take the next step. If you don't do that, how would you feel? And the word that then comes out after their mouth, it's often been devastated, comes up a lot. But whatever, it's their word. That word almost in itself becomes the catalyst that allows them to go and do that one next thing, whatever that might be. Utkarsh Narang (34:35.666) Hmm. Kim Payne (34:47.734) And I find that when coming at it from that perspective, it just gets them into action. And as you and I both know, sometimes you just gotta take that one step, then you take the next step. And you don't even have to know what all those steps look like in order to take them, but you've at least gotta take one. So just by going through that kind of inquiry. Utkarsh Narang (34:52.242) Mm-hmm. Utkarsh Narang (35:00.358) That's it. Utkarsh Narang (35:04.914) Yeah. Kim Payne (35:11.566) It definitely helps people and I don't even need to say the word. They say the words, their words, so they own it. So yeah, it's quite beautiful. And if I can just share, a friend of mine asked me at dinner many years ago, actually one of the other guys that's been on my podcast, and he said to me, Kim, what's your biggest fear? And I said, that's easy. My biggest fear is my unmet potential. It is absolutely my biggest fear. Utkarsh Narang (35:16.998) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (35:34.556) Hoo. Kim Payne (35:38.466) which means that I'm at a stage in my life knowing that that's my biggest fear, that if there's something I wanna do or give a go, that fear of the unmet potential is enough to push me forward to at least just trying something in that space. And that's been gold, yeah. Utkarsh Narang (35:38.674) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (35:46.514) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (35:56.144) Yeah. Yeah. Powerful. This, question that you asked, what's your biggest fear? My answer always has been, and I do this exercise with my, I play this game with my kids. I should use the better word, play this game with my kids. And I tell them my biggest fear is to lose everything that I have in my head. All my experiences, all my knowledge, all my wisdom, whatever has happened, because if that goes away, I have no idea where will I start again? So that's one, but this idea. Kim Payne (36:09.197) Yeah. Kim Payne (36:24.295) interesting. That's interesting. Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (36:25.712) So you were saying? Yeah. Yeah, what happens? What happens if you go blank tomorrow? I don't remember the conversation that came. I don't remember the conversations. I don't remember the first time I held them, held my kids in my, in my lap or met my wife. That would just devastate me. Yeah. Yeah. The second thing I was saying was that this, this idea of realizing your unmet potential, I think, Kim Payne (36:43.5) Yeah, that's so interesting. Yeah. What you're going to say a second one, what would that be? Utkarsh Narang (36:55.29) It's a journey that I'm on, Kim. And what I've figured out is that you don't know if you'll reach it or not. You don't know how much you will reach, like what percentage, where's the hundred percent. You don't know all of these things, right? So what I've broken this down now is that I'm going to put in my best every single day. And there's this quote by Mahatma Gandhi. I think he says something like, when I sleep at night, I die. And then I'm born again the next morning. To me, that's just a simple way of living. I live my highest potential. Kim Payne (37:01.41) All right. Utkarsh Narang (37:25.464) on Tuesday January 21 when we are recording this and I'll worry about January 22 on January 22. What do think about that idea? Kim Payne (37:27.502) you Kim Payne (37:31.886) Do you know, my sister, so we've got the same dad, different mum, so she's got a Japanese mother and lives over in Tokyo. So lives a completely different world. She's 15 years younger than me and she literally lives day to day. And she says exactly, I don't know what's going to happen tomorrow. So I don't worry about it. I live for today, only today. Now she also has no possessions, no savings in the bank, nothing, right? Because she says, why would I worry myself about all of that stuff when I don't know what tomorrow holds, tomorrow I'll deal with it. Now, you know, growing up in society where it's, you you've got to plan for your retirement, you could put money away for a rainy day, you've got to, you know, set things up in advance. It was really interesting. So when she shared that and she shared that on my podcast, and it was so fascinating because I have this conversation with a lot of people. Utkarsh Narang (38:25.665) Mm-hmm. Kim Payne (38:29.964) And I love the idea because I love the freedom that that idea brings, that each day you get up, you be your best self in that day. And you know, the whole Eckhart Tolle power of now and living in the now, like there's so much gold in that. But it's funny because there's still that part of me, and I wish I could embrace it more, but there's still that part of me that goes, yeah, but there's all these other things that I wanna do as well. it's interesting you've asked and I probably need longer to think on it, cause I'm not. Utkarsh Narang (38:46.354) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (38:55.164) Bye. Utkarsh Narang (38:59.175) Mm. Kim Payne (38:59.464) sure I like a little bit of both but I definitely see the power in being able to go today's today and let me get to tonight having made the very best of today and put my best self forward today yeah really powerful interesting Utkarsh Narang (39:02.684) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (39:10.226) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (39:16.742) Yeah. Yeah. As I'm, as I'm hearing you say, you know, part of my brain always responds to this with, like we worry about that rainy day, right? When that rainy day comes, I'm going to dance in the rain. We'll, we'll, we'll figure it out. We'll figure it out. yeah, it's, it's a fascinating, conflict because I think it's the, it's the reptilian brain, right? That, that. Kim Payne (39:29.454) No. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Kim Payne (39:39.628) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (39:42.788) scares us that what if you don't have food on the table? What if you don't have this and what if you, but then you'll have another way because we're all cognitively, I think very forward thinkers. so yeah, it's a, it's a, it's another podcast you and I can get on and have an hour long conversation. Kim Payne (39:56.108) Yeah. Yeah. But if I can just also say there's, and I'm, I apologize to whoever's the founder of this quote, but the definition of hell is dying and meeting the version of you that you could have been. Kim Payne (40:17.516) So the version that you didn't make that decision or you didn't have the courage to chase that thing. And at your last day, actually meeting, well, if you had have done those things that you really wanted, this is who you would have been and meeting that person. And it's an interesting concept because that goes back to my whole concept about the fear of the unmet potential. that I don't wanna waste any moments not doing the things that I wanna pursue, cause I don't wanna get to that point. And again, we don't know when that point is, could be today, it could be 80 years, maybe not 80 for me. But I do know I mean, and to think that, oh my God, I could have done all of those things and I didn't do them because I was scared of what other people would think or I was scared of... Utkarsh Narang (40:50.566) Yeah. Correct. Yeah. Kim Payne (41:05.202) using my voice and somebody ridiculing me or something like that. yeah, it's a really interesting concept. Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (41:13.328) Yeah, yeah, it is. is because see, there's, again, coming back to that, there's this, this path that the universe has planned for you, but then there's this choice that the universe has offered you. And if you don't take that choice, then that's, that's what's going to, I think, let you not meet that highest potential. So I think what you and I are ultimately saying is that whether it's each day or the whole of your hundred years or whatever that number looks like, just make sure that you Kim Payne (41:25.708) Yeah. Kim Payne (41:34.08) Yeah. Yes. Utkarsh Narang (41:43.162) Again, word that's abused, misused and overused. You live authentically. But if you're able to do that, then the person you'll meet hopefully after death will be the same person that you became in those 80 odd years. Kim Payne (41:45.954) Yes. Yeah. Kim Payne (41:55.334) not agree more. Absolutely, completely agree wholeheartedly on that point. Yeah, totally. Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (42:00.658) Yeah. Yeah. What a reflective conversation we've, we've gone deep into this, but you know, while you were saying this final thought that comes to mind and we could have like a full one hour more conversation on everything that you and I have been speaking about, but now fast forward to both say 30, 27 years, maybe. Yeah. That's, that's the right math. 27 years later, Kim, that 80 year old came is standing there and she looks back. Kim Payne (42:13.55) yeah. Utkarsh Narang (42:29.439) and she has a piece of advice for you. What would she offer you? Kim Payne (42:34.54) Okay, so even just tying that back to my eight year old self, she would say to me... Utkarsh Narang (42:39.354) No, the 80 year old self, the 80 year old self in the future, giving advice to the 53 year old sitting here right now. Kim Payne (42:43.374) Yes. Yeah. So she would say, look how far you've come. And again, that goes back to, you know, from eight to 53. Look how far you've come. Keep going. That's what she would say. Keep going. Whatever it is that is inside you that is lighting you up. Keep going because you've got proof from eight to now. You've come a long way. You've been on a lovely, gorgeous, glorious journey. Keep going, but don't stop, keep going. I reckon that's what she would say. Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (43:14.866) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (43:19.25) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (43:24.722) So powerful. Such, such simple words, right? Keep going. But they can transform lives if, you were to just practice it every single day. Kim Payne (43:29.538) Yeah. Yeah. Totally. And I think the key with this one here is, and there's a beautiful book called The Gap and the Gain by Dan Sullivan and Dr Benjamin Hardy called The Gap and the Gain. And it talks about, you know, that so often as human beings, we measure the gap. So how far we are now from where we want to be. And sometimes that gap can be quite crippling and quite demotivating and We just think, my God, it's too far out of reach. We don't even try. But when you look at how far you've come, which is the gain part of it, that gain gives you the inspiration or the motivation or the desire to keep going. I do these reflections a lot where I even look at, you know, the last 12 months, what, how far have I come over 12 months? That might be in terms of things I've done, things I've accomplished, ways I look at the world, how I show up, how I think, how I feel. And even that alone gives me so much, wow, that's only 12 months. That if I look at where I've come from, eight to here, and the progress I've made and the direction I've taken, yeah, that's what my 80 year old would say. Be very aware of the progress and keep going because yeah, you're on a path, go and enjoy that path. So yeah, that would be my very long-winded, and my 80 year old would probably say it exactly like that. Just keep going. Utkarsh Narang (44:42.844) Yeah. Keep going. Utkarsh Narang (44:51.89) No, such a powerful conversation, know, but in a normal podcast, I would have stopped at this moment and I would have said, thank you Kim for your time, loved it. But you know, part of me is like still looking at this page and I can't stop myself from going back. That dancer in you that's locked up and you put it into your heart. What happened to her? Kim Payne (44:57.346) and Kim Payne (45:15.182) Oh my gosh. When I was 23, my grandmother who I was very close to took me on a cruise ship. So it was called Fairstar, the fun ship at the time. It was a two week cruise. They had passenger shows on this cruise ship. And that's where they invite the passengers to volunteer, learn a whole lot of dance routines, and then you perform them on one of the nights to all the passengers. So I volunteered for every single dance. And the only reason they put me in every single dance was there weren't enough people to fill all the spots. Every time, who wants to go on this one? I'm like, me, me, me. Cause of course I've got this this lockets inside my heart. So I went, I did all the dances. We performed on the night. It was beautiful. When I came back after that cruise. So at the time I'd finished my degree in economics, I was working in stockbroking and I got off the ship and I thought, I know what my calling is in life. I'm going to be an entertainer on a cruise ship. Right? So every night I would go to my job in stockbroking at a big global firm, do what I had to do, come home, go into my bedroom, close my door and rehearse all the dance routines. Because not only was I gonna be an entertainer on the cruise ship, I was gonna be teaching all the other passengers how to dance. It was like my calling was coming to life. I was living with my dad at the time and about eight weeks into doing this and I did this every single night, my dad had what he calls a come to Jesus meeting, which is his way of saying, we need a serious talk. He sat me down, he looked him in the eyes and he said, Kim, you need to come back to the real world. You are not gonna be a dancer on a cruise ship, can't entertain that, you can't sing and you can't dance, get your head back into your finance job. So once again, he's not being mean and I'm not being humble when I say I can't sing and dance, okay? There's a massive dose of reality in there. Utkarsh Narang (47:09.618) Go. Kim Payne (47:10.872) So once again, I took that dream of being a dancer, I put it back in the locker and I buried it even deeper in my heart. When I was about 47, a girlfriend of mine said, my God, Kim, there's this thing and we go and we learn two dance routines over 13 weeks and then we perform it on stage. It's called Born to Boogie. It's for, you don't have to be a dancer to do it. Do you want to do it? I said yes. And I did it for seven seasons. And it didn't matter that I had crooked elbows. I could get up. we'd learn two routines, I'd perform them on stage. I was in my element to the point where I've been running retreats over the last 12 months. And part is called an action retreat. It's all about your mindset and your personal growth. bring the dance teacher from born to boogie to that retreat and teach all the women on the retreat a dance routine and we perform it on the last night of the retreat. So even though I'm not a little girl who became a professional dancer, Utkarsh Narang (48:02.322) No. Kim Payne (48:08.814) I've created moments in my life as a grown up where I can be that little girl who dreamt of being a dancer one day. I can do that in my life now as a grown up woman. And that to me is how I was able to, you know, bring that story back to, you know, closing the loop, how I'm now able to live that dream, albeit different to what I thought it would look like. Utkarsh Narang (48:29.554) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (48:33.33) Correct. Correct. Kim Payne (48:34.104) but I never had to let go of it. I've been able to take it out of the locket and bring it to the world as I know it today. Utkarsh Narang (48:41.202) Now this conversation is complete. beautiful. Thank you for sharing that. So anyone who's listening in, whether you're 25, 35 or 75, if there's something that's locked up in your heart from a very early stage, it's time to find that key. Maybe this podcast was that key. Find that key, unlock that box and put it out in the world because the universe has beautiful ways of how things show up in your life. Kim Payne (48:42.862) Love you. Kim Payne (48:52.524) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (49:06.226) Thank you, Kim. I'm glad we showed up in each other's lives. Look forward to many conversations and seeing how we build upon these conversations that we've had over the last couple of weeks. Kim Payne (49:15.69) It is my pleasure. love this my second deep conversation with you and I just I'd love to have many, many, many more. think we've got lots of things to explore and to uncover and absolutely delighted to be here sharing with you and your audience. Thank you. Utkarsh Narang (49:28.466) Thank you so much.