Utkarsh Narang (00:01.305) Hey Jasmine, welcome to the show. I'm looking forward to this conversation. And as we always do, the question that I want to kind of open us up with is if that 80 year old Jasmine were to be looking at you right now, what would she say to you? Jasmine Malki (00:15.934) Such a good question to ask me because this week in particular so I'm turning 44 at the end of this week so it'll be 36 years and I'll be 80 and I know when we just spoke earlier you mentioned you know that eight to 80 and I realized it's actually 36 years as well from when I was eight so it's it's just such a beautiful moment I think for me this week to do this conversation and reflect on that. And I think my 80 year old self would be super proud of me. Like I think already the way that I'm living my life is very congruent with the way that I want to be at 80. I'm living my calling, I'm doing the work that I love. So I think it will... she would be super proud of what I'm already achieving. I still think she would encourage me to be a little bit more courageous and a few things I've been reflecting on a bit lately around our potential and because I work with clients all the time I see their unlived potential too and that helps me reflect on what more is there in me that I'm keeping locked up. that I'm not giving myself permission to live. And there are a couple of things that scare me a little bit, that I think my 80 year old self would encourage me to just have a go. Don't leave this world with that music still locked up inside you. Utkarsh Narang (01:57.871) What a, I did not imagine the question to be so kind of provocative and what you're saying is 44, so plus 36 is 80 and minus 36 is eight. What a balance that we have created. But what is it about, you're speaking about keeping things locked up. I often say this that, and I see this in a lot of coaching conversations too. What is it that makes it? impossible for us to open up sometimes. Why do we, what's your thinking on that? Like, why do we lock things up within ourselves and not let our full self kind of flourish and go out in the world? Jasmine Malki (02:40.134) I think it is vulnerability. Vulnerability is scary. Like the definition of vulnerability is the presence of uncertainty, risk and emotional exposure. Right? And I think to be courageous is to feel that vulnerability and do it anyway. And I think that our experiences, our past experiences have shown us what happens when we're vulnerable. Now, if we've been lucky enough and have had lots of great experiences where we've been vulnerable and it's worked for us, it hasn't cost us anything, then I can only imagine you would continue to be vulnerable right. But as a human being at the end of the day we're designed to stay safe and to be secure so I think we can't ignore our wiring like that is that is part of our wiring which is great right because we want to stay alive we want to get to 80 and beyond but for that to happen we need to kind of manage that rub that constantly we have in our lives around, you know, how do I want to live my life while staying safe, but also push myself and live out my potential. And I don't know that that is, I think we will live our whole life trying to work out that rub. Utkarsh Narang (03:55.865) And it's a beautiful journey. I love how you're putting it, the rub, I think makes a lot of sense and how it's a journey of actually finding your or unlocking your true self every single day. hopefully we can protect ourselves enough and still kind of push ourselves enough out of the comfort zone to make sure that that happens. But if you were to start from say the early influences, what do you think? Like how was your childhood or what things were you kind of exposed to that allowed you to be the human that you are right now? Jasmine Malki (04:26.568) Such a good question because I think our story defines everything about how we live our lives. So I often now with any topic that I'm exploring with my clients, teams, organizations, I always say it's really important to start with a sentence like growing up, you know, I believed whatever the topic is, trust, you know, conversations. you know, vulnerability, whatever you want to insert in there. So I grew up believing this thing was dot dot dot and then just hearing each other's stories. We cannot ignore that that has a huge impact on the way that then we end up living, working, parenting, doing everything really because as Brene Brown says, who we are is how we lead, right? So you cannot ignore who you are, which your history is a huge part of that. So again, to reflect on that 8 to 80, at eight, I was living through a war. So I was living in the north of Iraq. Iraq had been in an eight year war with Iran. And that was my life. I was born in 1980. Till 1988, I lived that war. So, you know, to just bring that to life, that looks like every day, you don't know what your day might look like. I still remember a day walking to school and hearing a siren. So normally we all knew what to do when we would hear the siren We would go in a bunker our neighbors would come we were lucky to have a bunker in my house So, you know, I would often be in the bunker with pretty much our whole street sometimes multiple times a day, but on good days once a day but often you were close to home that was lucky that you could make it to the bunker but sometimes you knew based on the siren you could not make it to a bunker so your job in that case was just to stand against a wall basically that was what we were told to do. So that was my reality at eight. So I cannot not be influenced by that. Having said that, this is what I love about the duality of life. Jasmine Malki (06:41.76) At the same time that this was happening, also lived in a beautiful community, in a beautiful safe from a human connection safety, not physical safety, where I played on the street, didn't have to tell my parents where I was going, went to my neighbor's house. It was just that kind of community. And to give you context, I lived in the north of Iraq in a little town called Ankawa and that is in middle of Erbil which is a lot of people would know it as Kurdistan now. So that is what was happening and I've often reflected on I probably felt the most belonging and safety in those you know sort of zero to ten years of my life that was before we left Iraq even though it was in the midst of a war. Utkarsh Narang (07:14.853) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (07:35.269) Hmm. Jasmine Malki (07:35.294) So I think those influences around realizing the preciousness of life and kind of being super wired for survival in some way makes you almost enjoy and savor everything. You know don't offer habits potential crisis in those situations because you're just so happy to be alive every day. Utkarsh Narang (07:54.523) Thanks Jasmine Malki (07:57.442) So there's that, but there's also that love and belonging that can be in any community, no matter how the circumstance or the environment is. And I think sort of growing up with that, knowing that sense of inclusion, belonging in a community, in the context of something really big and challenging happening. And I think of course my mom and dad were my influences there as well around work. So my mom... worked as a teacher, my dad had a career as a teacher but actually transitioned into the foreign affairs and became a diplomat in the 80s, which at that time changing careers was not a thing that most people did. that inspired me a lot just to see him in, it was at that time in his 30s, starting to think about what kind of life he still wanted to live, what was his potential. and making that transition into foreign affairs, is really then what led me to the rest of my story, which was we lived overseas and my dad worked overseas and then coming to Australia as a refugee. Utkarsh Narang (09:04.123) Wow, I sincerely tell my listeners right now that whoever is listening, they should have a notepad and a pen to take notes. This is fascinating. The first thing is for me to just wrap my head around the situation where you have to, in the middle of school, run into a bunker. It's fascinating to hear that experience. And then how you very seamlessly put this idea of feeling safe and belonging within that community. It's such a beautiful paradox that you're sharing, Jasmine. But just help me understand, like, and I know the world's going through a very difficult state right now. There's war in different parts of the world. But how does one reframe to see a sense of security and belonging and safety? It's a place where you don't know if you're going to survive the day. Jasmine Malki (09:58.298) I think that's the beauty of humanity as well and our adaptability. to be honest, I don't really know how we did it, but we did it. We did all sorts of things like you're saying. We probably were reframing constantly throughout the day. You're probably compartmentalizing. You were context setting. You were doing all the things that we now sort of work with our clients on. But you're more doing it. what would you say is the word? Is it naturally or adaptively? Because you just had to. You had to hold those two things of potentially I might die, but also I want to live and carry those things with you every day. But I think it also reminds you about the things that really, that we are wired for connection, that what is, even though, know, in Maslow's hierarchy, we do need obviously to have food and shelter and all those things, but we actually up and down that pyramid. Utkarsh Narang (10:29.765) Mm. Jasmine Malki (10:56.91) all the time because we also need that sense of belonging and love and all those kinds of things and they are actually just as important for our survival as human beings, as that physical stuff. So I think even sometimes I reflect now, how people say, if you've lived through a war, if you hear loud sounds or whatever, how you might be triggered. And I'm amazed at how much healing I've also managed to do that now I am. Obviously it's horrifying when you are observing and at the moment with our ability to have social media it also means that we've got access to war you can actually see it and that's traumatizing but it also I think still reminds us of the resilience of our human spirit and how we can heal and how we can continue to find ways to actually use and leverage that experience to have more empathy. and to feel more connect, more connection, and to grow and adapt. Utkarsh Narang (11:59.045) Yeah, I love that. And I don't know if we thought about taking the conversation where it's going, but I'm loving where we're headed. You know, it almost makes me draw parallels and I don't in any way mean to say that being in a place where there's an actual war happening compares to how lucky I think we are and our kids are. But death is actually walking right by us every single day. I mean, this could be the final day of our life. And if we were to... what you did in those moments to be able to reframe, be able to context switch and to be able to compartmentalize. I think these are, these are skills for life. And these are skills that each one of us, whether we're being laid off, whether we are getting a promotion and feeling like, like a headless chicken to say, or whether we are losing a loved one. think these three would be powerful insights for anyone to put into practice. But as you now work with your co-chiefs Jasmine, and maybe that's a, that's an insight. Do you think that influences how you coach also in any way? The experiences that you had? Jasmine Malki (13:03.854) Absolutely. Yes, I think again that who we are is how we lead and live and work and parent and do everything. think absolutely everything that I do is coloured by that. And a specific thing that I think again then goes to my philosophy about work of love is really about this idea of what I noticed in myself. So when I was between zero to ten living in Iraq through war, Utkarsh Narang (13:09.648) Hmm. Jasmine Malki (13:30.318) I was still at the edge of my, you I was living at my growth edge. Like I was challenging myself, I loved school, I was playing sport, I was thriving. Now that same person who came to Australia as a refugee at 14 did not thrive and was not the same girl that was zero to 10 in Iraq and I've often reflected on that. I'm going how can that possibly be because in a lot of ways the circumstances were much better in 1994 in Perth, Western Australia arriving finally safe, like finally physically safe. Shouldn't that have just meant that I could just fly from there, right? But because the environment was not inclusive and it was, I felt no sense of belonging. All those emotional needs were actually not met. My parents were also very vulnerable. They did not feel that they were trying to find themselves in all of this. You know, they were forced to leave, they didn't want to leave. But to be now in this situation, I sort of lost that emotional, the physical, Maslow's hierarchy, you the bottom were all very firm now. Yet what I noticed, I could not see myself being able to thrive was because Utkarsh Narang (14:40.315) you Jasmine Malki (14:47.778) those sense of inclusion, belonging, which I would say I love, I realized the same human being who had all that potential could all be suffocated if they're not in the right environment. And that's what really my work, know, if people talk about love and work, what do they have to do with each other? And I think, well, if work is all about our potential, about our bringing our strengths, our skills to the workplace to do something good in the world, well, that environment has the power. to unleash your potential or it has the power to really stifle it. And I learned that from my own experience. I think seeing how I could even thrive in a war zone basically, but with love and support and belonging and inclusion, or not at all in an environment that actually lacks those emotional components. So I think that colors everything that I do at work, whether that is working with individuals lead us to work out what environment they need, you know, for themselves to thrive and really work to their potential or whether that is in organizations as well that create, know, often we call it psychological safety, but that is actually the air that you need in an organization. Utkarsh Narang (16:06.299) Wow, 100%. Again, I'm just reflecting on this whole journey. You know, a few days ago, I was having this conversation with my wife that our kids, we moved to Australia only 20 months ago. And so a very new environment. And often, if anyone asks me, Utkash, how has the move been? Part of me just speaks about how my kids and they've been able to find their tribe and how important it is. Because if they would have felt that we don't belong here and we don't want to be here, then it would have been really hard for us as parents to keep us here and we would not have wanted that because ultimately that's what you want as for the future generation. But the conversation that I was having with her was that maybe we have to try and stimulate or simulate actually, simulate some level of adversity for the kids. Because I sometimes feel that they've really not seen adversity in the way that Jasmin that you've spoken about like during those zero to 10 years and they've not seen the internet goes off and that's a big challenge to them. And I know you're also a parent. So what do you think about this idea? I'm kind of now soundboarding it for you. So listeners who are parents would enjoy this conversation. How do you feel about adversity being exposed to kids and what would that do for them? Jasmine Malki (17:26.447) I such a doofy. Because my husband and I have this conversation all the time. He also comes from, he's a migrant to Australia, came to Australia when he was six from Syria. And him and I also had like a very sort of difficult migrant life where his parents had to have a small business. They all worked in the family business. They worked very hard. They never took weekends off. know, and him and I often have this because our kids like everyday kids, you know, they complain about the littlest things. Utkarsh Narang (17:31.78) Jasmine Malki (17:55.546) And we're often wondering about gratitude and wondering about resilience and wondering about to your point, if you don't face adversity, know what, how much resilience can you really build? But then this reminds me of the same conversation I hear from leaders in organizations when they go, kids these days, they're so entitled, they wanna be CEO, you know, two years after they've started working in my day and some. bosses actually tell you in their days, three things were thrown at them and they were abused verbally. That's how they had to learn. So it's a dangerous thing I think for us to do this comparison because I often say to leaders, but is that the world we want to build? Right? Do we actually want to build a world where things get thrown at us, we get abused at work? No. So we've got to actually now think about the world we want to build. And I think it's the same for us as parents. is we've got to remind ourselves of the world we want our kids to live in. I wonder whether it's like we're obsessed with adversity because we think they need to be prepared for a world that is very adverse but at the same time I think we've got it again it's a duality of the fact is that they do face adversity at their own level. I already have my kids facing issues with friends, exclusion, things around feeling disappointed, working hard but not achieving what you set out to. Like they are all still adversities, maybe not to the extent that we had adversities, but I still think it really helps them build themselves. And I am grateful that my kids don't have to go through the adversities that I went through. Utkarsh Narang (19:40.571) I love that perspective because what you're saying is so true. You would not want an employee to go through abuse just because 20 years ago you did as a leader. I think that's giving me lot of food for thought and I need to go back and listen to this episode and make sure I take those notes. And in a way, I think those small adversities that you're speaking about, think those are enough to maneuver them. I actually went to chat GPT and I thought that if I cannot find something, let me ask chat GPT and say that... chat GPT I'm gonna put a little bit of adversity to my kids. What would you recommend? It came with a list of eight or 10 things Jasmine. And almost, I would say eight or nine of those things were things that my kids are actually right now going through, which is learning a new instrument, which is pushing themselves out of their comfort zone. And that's the exact same thing that you're speaking about, that the small shifts can lead to a lot of impact for them and we're not one that adversity. But as we're now speaking about kids, And that's something that men and women, I call this like gender inclusive and all kinds inclusive. How do you balance the personal and professional kind of needs that arise onto you from the work, from the kids, from the jobs? What's been your trick of the trade, so to say? Jasmine Malki (20:59.318) Hmm. So I mean again, it's it's that kind of The word that's often thrown around here is balance which I actually think does not exist like if you actually ever thought in life When can you at any moment in time say everything is balanced, right? Like it won't even probably last a minute before something it's gonna change in that balance So I think I always my thinking about that is integration. It's about how can I live an integrated life? in a way that integrates my work and my parenting and my kids and I think COVID in a lot of ways helped that become a reality for us because we just had to experiment with it and pilot it. And then since then I think we can look back and go what actually worked well and what can we do well. Now, a lot of people ask me this question often mums who are about to have their kids and return to work often are the ones that I get the most question about. they often are asking for advice and being a coach you know what it's like we're kind of very hesitant to give advice because we know that what worked for me might not work for you because we're wired differently right and we each will delete distort and generalize our reality based on our coding and that code i can't possibly know what your code is compared to mine so i'm always i always say i'm happy to share my story But please be very careful about how you apply it to yourself because not only am I coded and wired differently, but also my circumstances different. You know, what my husband could and couldn't do to support us as a family, what my kids' needs were. I mean, how huge is that as far as like what kind of kid you get and what challenges come with that? So for me, it's just been a whole lot of like life as I said, it's kind of just squiggly I made mistakes I But some of the big things that I did that made a huge difference was Sort of doing some part-time work then stepping out and doing starting my own business now I have a portfolio career all those things have been choices that I not only have Jasmine Malki (23:16.056) consciously made, but I've had the privilege to make, which have helped us create a more sort of integrated family work system. It's always, I think we always have to tune it, right? It's like something, one child has new sort of activity and all a sudden you've got to read you everything. So it's always work in progress. Utkarsh Narang (23:39.823) Yeah, no, I love that word integration because I think a balance is not possible because you're trying to balance two entities that are very different and are part of each other. So it's really hard to create that balance. And as you were speaking through, yeah, you're right in a lot of ways, you've to kind of keep working at it every single day. I think what I want to kind of go deeper onto is this choice that you said you had the privilege to, but also the opportunity and the awareness almost too. How do you help people who you feel are in a state where they're unable to take that choice? Jasmine Malki (24:22.486) I feel like there's always choice and I know this is hard but again it's about getting curious about what that choice looks like and not seeing things in black and white but seeing all the grey in between and again that is something I think I sort of learnt from being a lawyer by background in terms of just really exploring that greyness and getting comfortable sitting in grey not feeling like I've got to have right or wrong answers because I actually don't think those exist because of what I just said. Every family is different, every person is different. So I think you've got to sort of really get curious about the landscape that you're dealing with and obviously coaching really helps with that because you get someone who's pushing you to think in the grey versus the shortcuts that you would go to as a person of that black and white thinking. So definitely I think it's just curiosity. and actually borrow someone else's brain and presence to work through those things. Don't feel like you've got to do it on your own. Utkarsh Narang (25:24.975) Yeah, yeah, love the idea borrow someone else's brain. I'm going to use it. And I think what you're saying is very true. Look at the gray because it cannot be or even even better. can maybe push it even one level further is look at all the colors that are on the spectrum and why look at just black and white. And I think that's that's fascinating. And yes, we always have a choice. It's just that it takes time and for us to come to a position where we can make that choice or take that decision. But as you and I were speaking, you know, one of these conversations I was having about balance. You you could think of someone in the US right now and with all that's the political turmoil that that country is going through, you could think of Ukraine or Russia, you could think of the Middle East, you could think of challenges in India or maybe recession across the world or what's happening in Australia. I think there are always these challenges and they're always trying to topple our balance, if that makes sense. And I think, yeah, coming back to that, pyramid Maslow's hierarchy. What I've thought about Jasmine, this is kind of me thinking loud with you on the podcast is that we need to make the pyramid go upside down. And what I mean by that is that maybe we'll be in a state of war or maybe there'll be a lot of different challenges that will come on our physiological safety, our physical safety. But if we start with that awareness that because in that state when between zero to ten you were able to reframe, you were able to find that sense of belonging. But maybe there were many families who were like, what the hell, where are we stuck? I don't enjoy, there's nothing there for me to find joy in. And that was their awareness, that was their self-actualization to, does that make sense? Do you think there was a difference between how you approach that situation versus maybe someone else? Jasmine Malki (27:15.95) I'm really still thinking about inverting the pyramid as well. And it's interesting because actually that is how I live my life, I think. I always start with this idea of connection before content, right? Like in interactions, at work, in life, it's always that human connection, I think, that really is the oxygen for us as humans. So it's... Really about I think thinking about what does that look like though in a situation that's very fearful? Where you are sort of also fearing for your and that's why I think again it brings that duality thing I think we need the system to be being worked on at the same time right like as a kid would I have liked to have preferred there not to be war absolutely would I have thrived even more if there was no war absolutely right like it's Utkarsh Narang (27:49.115) Hmm. Jasmine Malki (28:09.704) I often think about again my 80 year old self will be so glad that I was able to actually have the life that I have now which and I can provide for my kids and the sacrifices my parents had to make to get us here is all in the hope that we have that base of that Maslow's hierarchy really firm and it shouldn't be negotiable these days let's face it I mean I think this is what really you know I am I am an optimist. Utkarsh Narang (28:30.331) Mm. Utkarsh Narang (28:36.175) Hmm. Jasmine Malki (28:36.526) and recently I saw the definition of optimism, is it is the belief in a better future plus action. So it's not that toxic positivity that you kind of get where, come on everyone, I know the world's burning, but let's ignore that, it's gonna be fine. It's not that, it's actually that combination of a deep belief that the world can be better and people are better than this, plus some action. I think we need to each be acting in our own way to Utkarsh Narang (29:01.083) Hmm. Jasmine Malki (29:05.644) work on the system and obviously what's within our control and influence which is our own thinking, behaviour and the influence we can have. I think only then can we possibly have a chance but it is really hard to look at the world and think everything that's wrong with it is our fault. Utkarsh Narang (29:19.386) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (29:27.356) Yeah, but you know, as you were speaking this word of you being an optimist was running through my mind and I'm glad you brought that up. I always say that I'm like an eternal optimist. I think this definition of yes, things are right or yes, they can improve. And then I'll take action about it. Also, I think that that makes the definition complete. And then I was also looking at you use the the terms work and love together and you spoke about it a little bit through just maybe help our viewers understand what brought you that moment because whenever we choose a name and that's what kind of had me kind of reach out to you whenever we choose a name for our organization or our children or our businesses I think they're very deeply rooted in something that's more than what meets the eye for example when I chose the word ignited neurons the idea was that our neurons are going to keep igniting and they're going to allow us to bring beautiful things to the world. But where did that work and love get combined for you? Jasmine Malki (30:28.462) So work and love got combined for me in two specific ways. So the first one was the words of the poet Khalil Gibran where he says, is love made visible. Now, as I mentioned to you from an early age, I just had this fascination with work as an activator of love. Like I just thought, whatever you love, you get to activate it through work when you get older. So I would constant, I was... fascinated by what people did for work. From a young age I'd love for people would visit our house I'd love to know what they do because for me I felt that that is what it is like when you see someone and the fact that Khalid Gibran captured that that love is work made visible and you how many people I've said that to and said I don't know what that means because it's actually sadly for whatever reason rare. So for me it was like okay if Khalid Gibran felt it and I felt it and I think it's possible, then what does that actually, why can't we not feel more of it? And then I realised maybe it's again the system that might be playing a part here. So in one activity at work, we all had this sort of connection before content where we were opening these cookie, these fortune cookies, and you would open the fortune cookie randomly and everyone would get a message and you'd read the message and then talk about what that message meant for you. So I actually wasn't my cookie, someone was on Zoom and asked me to open his cookie. So I opened the cookie and the words in it were, faults are thick when love is thin. Utkarsh Narang (32:07.195) faults are thick when love is thin. Jasmine Malki (32:07.32) faults are thick when love is thin. And I thought this is what's wrong with work. Because think about how you feel when you're again it goes to that psychological safety belonging inclusion. When your whole time at work is occupied with you staying safe and not making a mistake because your faults are going to be thick in an environment where love is super thin. then that's what you're obsessed with, right? You're obsessed with staying safe, not making a mistake. And I thought, and also the reason that you feel so fearful is because you don't feel there is love at work. You don't feel that if you made a mistake, someone will have you back. Someone will support you. Someone will work through it with you. So to me that's where sort of it was a combination of you know Khalil Gibran talking about this idea of work is love made visible and then getting that fortune cookie you know just sealed it for me. I was like that's what we need, we need love at work but not in the way that we've made love so small and made it very specific to romantic relationships and family relationships but in the expanse of scientific emotion of love which actually can be shared. two people in a micro moment that was based on Barbara Fredrickson's study. So that's kind of where my idea of work of love came from. Utkarsh Narang (33:36.515) Thank you for sharing that. How appropriate was for that fortune cookie to open up for you? And I love that statement. Faults are thick when love is thin. And I'm thinking about if you look at your personal relationships or if you look at your work relationships or if you look at your relationship with your friends or parents, if there's no deep love there in any of these, then you'll find faults with them. And that's not the way to go about it. And as I'm hearing you speak about love at the workplace, I think... So love is one of my values and I feel out of the top five core values, love is showing up on this podcast for you, for these listeners. That's all love that's going to be oozing out hopefully from how we appear here. But you know, this idea of love is so far from the, I don't want to use the word, the corporate word, that a few weeks ago, I think it was last month, I do these Ignite Circles Jasmine and I... The topic of that Ignite Circle, I don't remember the exact words, was something around that the great leaders make love a priority. And I sent to about 100 or maybe 300 people on LinkedIn to join that event. And at least three of them responded saying that, Utkarsh, the word love and leaders don't go together because then you're making the lines very invisible and blurring the lines. Like, I'm not talking about the... the 21st century or the romantic kind of love. And that's not the only love that exists because love is larger than that. Love is when you show up for the other person because you just mean to show up in beautiful ways and you're not wanting something back from them. But in that service lies your love and your commitment to the organization, to the person and this and that. But it's a very fascinating world out there. how have you managed to influence leaders and to think and talk about love in the workplace? Utkarsh Narang (35:33.691) Something happened which is okay. Utkarsh Narang (35:39.552) Is it turning it back on? Utkarsh Narang (35:45.561) Ooh, yes, I think go ahead and click refresh. Utkarsh Narang (35:52.859) Okay, so wait, let's wait.