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Instant Gratification vs. Long-Term Purpose

In this episode of the IgnitedNeurons Podcast, we dive deep into the dichotomy of gratification, the importance of intentional living, and the influence of childhood experiences on awareness and decision-making. Irwin Hau shares his expertise on mastering attention and conversion, living with purpose, and ensuring a life without regrets.

About

Irwin Hau is a website conversion design and human-behavior specialist with over 14 years of experience.

 

Having analyzed more than 60,000 websites, Irwin is on a mission to help businesses stop wasting marketing budgets by turning their websites into powerful tools for trust, engagement, and measurable growth. His proven strategies have helped businesses achieve significant increases in leads, engagement, and ROI.

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🎧 Tune in for a conversation brimming with wisdom, humanity, and actionable insights for leaders at every stage of their journey.

Transcript

Utkarsh Narang (00:01.186) Hey, Irwin I'm looking forward to this conversation today and thank you for spending this time with us today. Irwin Hau (00:06.35) Hey, pleasure, absolute pleasure and I'm so excited myself, absolutely. Utkarsh Narang (00:09.504) Absolutely. And the first question that we open up the podcast with, because it's more than just the title that meets the eye. And so we want to go deeper. And so if that eight-year-old Irwin were to be looking at you right now, what kind of conversation do you think would emerge between you and that eight-year-old dreamy little boy? Irwin Hau (00:29.902) Eight year old Irwin, wow. I love that question actually. There's so many things I would say to that eight year old Irwin. think the first thing that comes to mind, I'd be like, just keep your head down, keep working hard. Like don't give up. Life, like there's so much ahead of you. There's so much to see. You know nothing. Just play in the season that you've got, enjoy it and keep working hard. You know, sort of thing. I'll teach or even tell 8-year-old Irwin delayed gratification. Delayed gratification. Don't go for the big wins now. They will come. Be a bit more humble, I guess, in those kind of ways. I'll definitely teach 8-year-old Irwin compound interest. Compounding anything. Compounding interest. Get on it early. Really early. Really fast. So hopefully I can look now and go, Utkarsh Narang (01:18.67) I love that. I love Irwin Hau (01:30.078) That's a nice little pot of things. But not just in finance, but compound knowledge. Just learn as much, keep soaking, keep learning. And one thing I actually said to my sister during her wedding speech is always remain teachable. Don't ever pretend or think you know everything. You don't. So... Surround yourself with people who will bring out the best in you And and yeah, so There's so many actual my mind swallows back to what an eight-year-old Irwin would even look like actually and and look after you know Look after your hair. You're gonna lose it one day. I started the company when I was like, you know, hey, was down here This is how hard I've been working, you know so just maybe just Stop stop doing stop wearing hats or something Utkarsh Narang (02:07.949) Wow. Utkarsh Narang (02:18.702) Mm-hmm. Perfect. Utkarsh Narang (02:28.238) Yeah, no, I mean, you know, a few minutes into this conversation, and I'm going to kind of, even before I reflect on what you've just shared, I'm going to ask our listeners to get that diary or get that notebook out because you've shared so many powerful things. You know nothing, delayed gratification, compounding, the power of compounding. Then you spoke about taking care of your hair. I think that to me is I'm also going through that journey and I'm still losing a little bit. on that. And then the final thing that he shared was, yeah, just staying that game and work really hard. But you know, this whole idea even about delayed gratification, I think we as a society, feel, and I love your thoughts, we're moving far and far away from it. How do you think it plays now as you see the world, the social media? And I know you've, your LinkedIn says you've evaluated some 18 or 18,000 or even more websites. So I'd love for you to share, what do you think is the play between this instant gratification and the delayed gratification that you're speaking about? Irwin Hau (03:31.326) Yeah. wow. It's a big question because it's a question that my missus and I have been talking about because we have kids and we look at the different generations and each generation has its own blessings, but also has its own curses. And so I'm not saying one generation is better than the other. I think we just have things that we've been blessed with and other things that we just have to learn how to work through. Delay gravitation, I think we're in a society now where everything is so instant, so quick, so fast, so how do I get your attention, you know? And also what are they called, the Instagram life. And you wonder why mental health issues are also going, I'm not saying that I'm not a scientist, I don't have the data, but I'm just saying we used to live much more simpler lives. We're happier. We couldn't compare. Because comparison is the biggest killer of contentment. I couldn't compare because I have no idea what's going on in your life. I don't know when you bought your new car, your new house, when you went on that holiday to Fiji, you were sipping cocktails on some island. I don't know. So I can't be crushed. But in the same breath, I want to make sure I'm happy for others as well. out there. But I think instant gratification does kill us now from what the future will be in terms of saving up, looking out for the next generation and whatnot. But I'm also caught between another life where my family, they are a migrant family, know, they came over to this country and I'm really thankful for everything they've ever done. Every sacrifice they've ever had is for me. In the same place I'm doing the same thing for my kids but I'm in a different position. I can speak the language. Financially I'm in a very different place to what my parents were. I didn't have to work multiple jobs at crazy hours. I still sometimes feel really guilty when I say, hi parents, can you look after our kids so we, as in my missus and I, we can go and enjoy ourselves and eat in nice luxury places or go on a trip. Irwin Hau (05:59.992) that would have been a dream for them. Absolute dream, that's not even thought of, you know? And so I think when it comes to, yeah, a delayed gratification, I think there's a side where I wanna make sure I'm not being all yolo. Utkarsh Narang (06:19.598) Mm. Irwin Hau (06:20.548) But I also want to make sure I'm also living as well because here I am also meeting friends who, we had one friend, they were so excited, they announced, we're retiring now. And within a short period of time, one of the two partners gets cancer. And it makes you kind of think about life and all that kind of stuff. I think you and I were talking before, and actually I'll share the picture. Utkarsh Narang (06:25.87) Hmm. Irwin Hau (06:50.244) that I saw in my friend's house. I was really shocked. I walked into my friend's house and I saw this A4 piece of paper. And once I was shocked, not shocked in a horrible way, but it was a nice wake up call. So what was on this piece of paper? It was just a chart. It had multiple boxes on it. It had 90 rows and 52 columns. And at the top of it, it actually said, 90 years of your life. in weeks. And that's what it is, like 90 years and 52 columns to represent each week. And every week that passed, my friend would cross a box. And being whatever age that person was, I could see that the boxes were, know, crossed off, we'll call it half for a better word. And they said to me, I'm sorry if this looks really morbid, but I just want to make sure I'm making the most with every day that I have. Utkarsh Narang (07:29.047) Mm. Utkarsh Narang (07:37.048) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Utkarsh Narang (07:43.054) Hmm. Irwin Hau (07:49.55) And I remember turning to my friend and I said, I'm so sorry, but I'm gonna make it even more realistic. Because my question to you is, who says you even have 90 days? Or 90 years, I mean. What if, and I just pointed to some random square, what if it was actually here, you've only got this much left of this whole sheet. I think we both kind of sat there and I think we came to that realization that Utkarsh Narang (08:02.03) 100%. 100%. Irwin Hau (08:19.652) Everything here is temporary, somewhat meaningless actually. Money is here to be made and it's not the be or end or. Even my mum said once, you know, after a while how many houses can you live in? How many cars can you drive? How much food can you eat? So yeah, think delayed gratification, I think there's a time for everything. Utkarsh Narang (08:30.104) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (08:49.038) Hmm. Irwin Hau (08:49.098) And maybe there's a book in the Bible, Ecclesiastes, which talks, I think it's Ecclesiastes 3 that talks about there's a season for everything. And so that's why I say the season for the eight year old Irwin is heads down, thumbs up and keep working hard. That's the season. If I'm in my 20s or 30s, just keep learning, keep trying. You don't have as much risk as you think you do. You Utkarsh Narang (08:58.094) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (09:07.394) Yeah. Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (09:13.23) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (09:16.834) Hmm. Irwin Hau (09:18.628) or a mortgage or a, you all these other things, you you still have your hair, you know? And then, but there's also time to play, because I think that's where I'm also learning that maybe I shouldn't wait until I'm retired and, you know, like, let's enjoy ourselves and find that balance. And I think that's the struggle, but also the fun part of it all, you know, sort of thing. And discovering with each day, no one has a perfect, so let's just play the best with the cards that we've been dealt. And can I just say as a fun one? Utkarsh Narang (09:23.438) you Utkarsh Narang (09:43.212) No one. Irwin Hau (09:47.852) If you do play poker, 7 and 2 offsuit is the worst hand you can get. But I've seen some people win with the worst hand because no one's expecting it. So I think everyone has a chance no matter what cards have been dealt. yeah. Utkarsh Narang (10:00.78) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (10:04.915) Beautiful, look at that. I'm going to go back to that statement. Comparison is the biggest enemy of contentment. And I think you're absolutely right in saying that and how the generation today, they just see this highlight reel on Instagram of all the amazing things that are happening in the lives of each individual, it seems, and they don't see the sweat and the blood and the toil and the tears. And sometimes it feels, and I was in India last week, Irwin, and there are startups in India who trying to deliver anything, and I really mean anything, to your doorstep within like six minutes. And I think what that is doing is making people feel that success and happiness and contentment and fulfillment can also come to six minutes. But that's never the case. And for those who need to be educated like I do, Irwin Hau (10:52.164) world. Utkarsh Narang (10:59.203) Irwin, somewhere you used the word YOLO, which means you only live once. The first time I heard it, was like, what the hell is this? Explain it to me. But then come back, let's come back to this 90 by 52 framework that your friend was using. And as you pointed out to that box for them and said that this could be the last box, did you end up having a deep conversation or what was their reaction? And why I asked this question, Irwin, is because there would be some listeners who would be in the box at I'm going to live 90 years. Whatever happens, I know I'll live 90 years. And then there'll be some who would be like, yes, you're right. We don't know when we'll kind of go away. So what was their reaction maybe in the moment when they've been so diligently doing something and you've almost questioned it? Irwin Hau (11:39.086) Hmm. Irwin Hau (11:49.508) Yeah, I think regardless if you live 90 or if you live to half that or quarter or whatever it is or that box that I pointed to, the end is still the same. And I think for us because she had this on her her wall and here's the key word is intentionality, is being intentional with every moment. If you are intentional with every moment, I mean, let's be honest, it's almost, think of it not as time, my friend, think of it almost like a budget. And at any time, I can literally just go, I'm gonna take that budget away, right? The question is, why do you gotta spend your dollars on... And how important is it? So what really helped both of us? Because I think we're both realistic with that life isn't just, I'll get tomorrow, you I'll just wait two weeks and no, no, it's in the now. But there's a responsibility and a sensibility that we're being responsible and sensible that we have to be now. Because what if we do get to there, but I've already spent my money here. I don't want to be so yellow that... don't want to... So it's that kind of... Utkarsh Narang (12:49.794) Mm-mm. Hmm. Irwin Hau (13:07.608) balancing game of working hard, being responsible for me, being a good dad, being a good boss, being a good friend, being a good mentor, youth leader, whatever it is, right? I I still got to live, I still got to pay for food, I still have to pay for mortgage and blah, but let's not be so Scrooge McDuck and actually just enjoy, give, and just use that time to invest in things that actually matter in life. And I think COVID actually, I'm not gonna lie, as horrible as the disease is and that time and period, one of the best things was there's actually a good wake up call that life is not just about. Utkarsh Narang (13:22.37) Yeah. Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (13:36.408) Love that. Utkarsh Narang (13:39.918) Hmm. Irwin Hau (13:48.196) running on that hamster wheel of life and running the rat race. But you know what, some people are like, actually no, actually I hate doing what I'm doing. So, and this is the tricky part. Everyone has a different level of content. I actually met one friend the other day and I said to him, what do you do for fun? It's my favorite question when I meet you. What do you do for fun? I love that question because it doesn't size people up, it doesn't, what do you do? And his honest answer was, I love working. Utkarsh Narang (13:49.73) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (14:06.242) Hmm. Hmm. Right. Irwin Hau (14:18.444) I just, and it really was, I know him so well and he really loves his work. It's almost like it's not a work, it's a hobby that so happens to pay him. And for him, I applaud him. Well done. Utkarsh Narang (14:27.214) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (14:33.006) definitely. Irwin Hau (14:34.51) But we have all been given life. We can choose whatever we want to do with it. Let's make it count. Utkarsh Narang (14:43.534) Yeah, yeah. And it's a tough realization, you know, I think this is the first few episodes that we're recording. I think we're about seven now. But this idea of that it's a choice, it always comes up. But for those who have been able to almost bring awareness that it's a choice and the choice that we have, it seems a very easy transition. But I see so many coaches, Irwin, who are like, Utkarsh, I'm stuck. on the planet 44 years and this is my way of living and I don't think I can change and they're fixed in that mindset where it seems that nothing's going to influence them or allow them to to find these new ways of thinking. What do you think? I know we're going into a much deeper terrain, but I'd love to have this conversation with you and see where this goes. Yeah. So what would you what would you say to someone who's at 45 stuck in their ways have succeeded in in the means of Irwin Hau (15:34.274) Yeah, I'd take. Utkarsh Narang (15:43.49) how the outer world perceives success, but they're hollow from inside. Irwin Hau (15:45.774) Yeah. Yeah. Can I just share? There's one word that I absolutely love that my wife has shown me and that we've actually experienced together and it's changed me forever. And it's the word perspective. You see, I can only live life one way because I'm one person and this is all I know. Every person, every human being, every human being has a different perspective of the same thing and the same thing is called life. So, your brother, sister, your mum, your dad, uncle, auntie's, uncles, keep going at it, all the way out, everyone has a different perspective. No one is the same as you. So my question is, I can't get myself out of this rut. My answer is, yeah, you can't. You're right. If you could, you would have done it. Right? So the question is, get new perspective. Find new perspective. Do you know why we ask friends when we have problems? It's because we're asking for confirmation of a perspective or a different perspective. Utkarsh Narang (16:54.168) Simple as that. Irwin Hau (17:13.646) that we can then check against ours. The reason why someone sees a psychologist or psychiatrist or gets help from a mentor or a coach is because you are well gifted in that perspective of life, business, whatever it is, mental health, whatever, that I don't have. So I applaud anyone who gets a mentor, sees a doctor. Utkarsh Narang (17:33.122) Yeah. Yeah. Irwin Hau (17:42.936) has a coach and whatever, because all you're doing is you're being teachable. Like I said before, one thing, because it's very humbling to reach out that you're actually inviting perspective. Listening to Utkarsh, this podcast is a perspective change. And with perspective, it's like leading horse to water. You can only show them. I I bet you somewhere right now, Utkarsh Narang (18:01.786) percent. Utkarsh Narang (18:06.19) Hmm. Irwin Hau (18:11.662) They're listening to this podcast, watching us two But then they're sit down after they close this podcast and they might even pause right now and just go, wow, maybe there is someone I can talk to to get me out of situation. Usually the question is, who do I talk to, Irwin? Like I said, your friends, family, if it's paid or unpaid, that's why there's consultants, it is worth it because you cannot dig. Utkarsh Narang (18:37.197) Right. Irwin Hau (18:41.378) yourself out of your own hole because if you could have you've already done it. That's it. Utkarsh Narang (18:42.646) Yeah. Yeah. You would have. Absolutely. Absolutely. 100%. I love that perspective. And I sometimes also share this that the world is nothing but eight billion perceptions and they're all trying to say that my perception is better than yours. And I think if you were to bring this perspective shift that you're speaking about, new things and new ideas can can unlock for us. But I'm to take us back to that eight year old as even started to grow up, reached maybe college or school. Any experiences that you feel in a way still influence how you be in the world, anything that happened that you still very vividly remember. Irwin Hau (19:29.016) That is one of the best questions actually I've been asked. One thing when I was young, I was a very quiet, shy, introvert person. And there's actually one activity that absolutely changed me. And it was that I actually took up being an illusionist, a magician. I did magic. That's actually what changed me completely. because it taught me many different skills. And when I say magic, I'm talking about like illusion. Say for example, like right now, if I had to pull out something, I'll just be like bang and I pull out a pen or something like that, right? I'm talking that kind of illusion, like magic, right? Because what was so unique about this, just, know, there I go, drop it and stuff, but what was so important about that was it taught me communication skills. Because let's be honest, I can't do a magic trick for myself. Not fun. I want to show you. And it brings joy into other people's lives. So the mastery of communication, how to speak, storytelling, language that not only just comes from the mouth, but in terms of action through hand gestures and body language was one of the best things. And second to that was actually a experience of working for me, it was working in retail. Utkarsh Narang (20:45.806) Yeah. Irwin Hau (20:57.248) because not only is it about communication skills, but interpersonal skills. And when you work in retail, trust me, you meet some very interesting characters. And you meet from, know, I don't think I need to say anything, I think you understand what I mean, but you meet some of the nice friendliest people, but you also get some really tough cookies. then it's using the communication skills to apply and just realize everyone is different. Utkarsh Narang (21:07.874) Mmm. Utkarsh Narang (21:16.366) Yeah. Absolutely. Irwin Hau (21:26.596) Everyone is unique. Everyone has a different perspective. Not everyone's wrong. It's just that they have a different way of seeing life. And so it's just knowing how to balance that and be able to articulate and communicate. So work and magic were the two biggest things for me. Utkarsh Narang (21:45.678) Beautiful. And those who are listening to this, should go to YouTube and watch the recording because it just made a pen appear from thin air and then he did not drop it, it disappeared. So you should definitely look at that. Irwin Hau (21:56.356) Okay. Irwin Hau (22:00.098) I should just drop that. was too excited in talking. But thank you so much. Appreciate you. Utkarsh Narang (22:05.8) Absolutely. And it's powerful because you see parents who trying to push kids away from their true creative expressions sometime. But as we talk about this, this is the big thing that you remember from your childhood. How does that influence your parenting, Irwin Hau (22:28.51) wow, like I am being a parent of two, I actually think almost daily every action that I take is going to influence my child. And I know that I'm the product of my environment and those around me. There are many mistakes I make, And so I'm very careful in even undoing things. So I'll give you an example. We're in regional Australia. My wife and I, had a bit of an argument. It quite a heated one. And my oldest daughter was watching us. And I felt quite embarrassed. My wife left, walked off, and here I am with my daughter. And I actually felt quite... Utkarsh Narang (23:08.322) Mm-hmm. Utkarsh Narang (23:13.966) Hmm. Irwin Hau (23:26.98) because I felt she was undermining, my wife was undermining me. But I could see her point as well because like all things, there's always two sides of the coin. No one's ever 100 % right. Maybe what you say is right, but maybe your attitude was wrong or the way we conduct ourselves. And so I'm not saying she was right or wrong. I'm just saying like she was good or bad. This was the situation we were in. It was over something really petty as well actually. I'd like come to think about it. I look back and I go, what wasn't even worth it, you know? So we've got to learn to pick up at all. That's another thing I tell you. But I remember pulling my daughter up and rather than just brushing it off and just, my wife walked off, looked after the lawn and she wasn't like storming off in a mad way, but more like, we're just going to continue doing our stuff, you know, if we're on holidays. Utkarsh Narang (24:00.974) What were we thinking? Irwin Hau (24:26.19) But I pulled my daughter's sign and I said, did you just see that interaction? How'd that make you feel? And to be honest, here I am really embarrassed. And she kind of shared her thoughts. And I'd say, can I just share my two perspectives? This is why mom said what she said. This is why I said what I said. And the way mom said it makes me feel really embarrassed right now. And. but I want to let you know. And I just went through the whole person and I said, I'm just going to talk to mom right now. We actually got to apologize. But I'm going to tell her what, and so I showed her and so she could see later I walked into mom and so forth, right? Utkarsh Narang (25:00.494) Mm. Irwin Hau (25:10.422) It's hard to apologize, Utkarsh Kass. It's hard to say sorry, especially sometimes when you feel or even know that you're right, whatever right means, But more in particular when you have to do it in front of someone else. But in my mind, if I don't do that, you do know that my daughter will learn that when you have an argument or disagreement, just walk away, brush it aside. And one day if she ever blows up, Utkarsh Narang (25:13.517) It is. Irwin Hau (25:40.996) because she's just collected all these hurts and wonders why, that would be my fault. And so I take it that seriously. So it's apologizing to our kids when we do the wrong thing. It's standing up for our partners when it's like, we look like we disagree, but we're actually on the same path, know? Stand for each other. And just being what, I mean, I always say, because I've got two daughters, Utkarsh Narang (25:43.502) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (25:47.586) Yeah, Utkarsh Narang (26:00.674) Yeah. Irwin Hau (26:10.552) I want to be like the husband that they'll find one day, know, or the partner they'll find one day that, yeah, they can aspire to and stuff like that. Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (26:15.362) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (26:23.84) It's such a big responsibility to be a parent and especially for all of humanity, like parenting I think is the biggest and the most rewarding and the grueling role that we have. But what you're saying, even that question that you asked everyone to ask her how you're feeling, I think that's a question that at least as growing up in India and would love to know your perspective as well, no one as a child would have ever asked me how are you feeling Utkarsh Kesh because no one cared about, I would not even say no one cared, no one knew that you had to care about the feelings. And so that made them totally away from from how you're feeling. But yeah, just thoughts on that. Irwin Hau (27:08.356) Well, think of it this way firstly. We all know Maslow's hierarchy of needs. We know there's the five tiers. And at the bottom is actually that kind of survival kind of level. I just need to make sure. The truth is, why do I need to care about feelings when I'm trying to survive? And I think that's how I've been brought because again with migrant family. Utkarsh Narang (27:13.644) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Utkarsh Narang (27:19.618) Yeah. Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (27:33.42) Mm-mm. Irwin Hau (27:33.804) If come to a country, you don't know the language, you don't have the finances, you don't have the means, you don't have the education, you don't have anything. Gotta survive! So, I don't hold it against my parents or anyone who didn't ask those questions when you're in survival mode. I know if I was in survival mode, I wouldn't care about like asking how you doing, because that's not my, not to say I don't care, it's not my normal because I just want to eat and I want to provide, because we're gonna get hungry. And feelings, unfortunately, doesn't feed the family, money does. Utkarsh Narang (27:47.342) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (27:51.022) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (28:10.51) 100 Irwin Hau (28:11.522) And so that's that, okay? And they're absolutely right. We are now in a more of abundance mode, which then kind of goes up the tiers, you know? And therefore, I mean, the top is that kind of legacy and so forth. But how do I leave a legacy if I can't even survive? So that's where it's knowing where you are, understanding the past, helping the future. And there's one thing I want to talk about, parenting. It's an interesting one. Utkarsh Narang (28:18.222) Hmm. Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (28:30.85) Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Irwin Hau (28:40.932) Have you ever thought about the word parenting? It's the word renting inside the word parenting. My kids aren't with me forever and they're not gonna be with me forever. My job is I'm just renting for a short period of time the responsibility of being in charge of them. And when they hit, I know everyone has a different age, 18, 21, 25, 30, whatever, right? Utkarsh Narang (28:56.152) Hmm. Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (29:03.15) I love that. Utkarsh Narang (29:09.997) Yeah. Irwin Hau (29:12.312) I've done my thing. The lease is over. I'm not going to be around much longer. Utkarsh Narang (29:19.577) Yeah, do your thing. Irwin Hau (29:22.264) You gotta do your thing now, right? Your time's almost up with that. You gotta make your own family. You gotta do your own thing. See the world. But once you're with me, under my house, in this lease, or this rent, I want the best. I wanna give you the best. I want you to know, to help you discover what is your purpose. I want you to fail. That's one thing I've been pushing my kids so hard. Please fail. As long as you're with me. Utkarsh Narang (29:23.351) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (29:36.718) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (29:50.318) Mmm. Irwin Hau (29:51.64) fail as hard as you can, because what does fail stand for? First attempt in learning. So learn as much as you can with me, because I can pick you up. Utkarsh Narang (29:53.486) Mm. Irwin Hau (30:02.688) And I hope you keep learning because if you think you're going to be successful, if you think you're just going to live that Instagram life all the time, you're going to come some rude shocks because I hope you understand those Instagram photos that you take. It's the best out of 40. You take one. That's the one you see. That's 39 times. That's the learning. Keep practicing. Keep going. Utkarsh Narang (30:10.158) you Utkarsh Narang (30:22.38) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Beautiful. Beautiful. As we're progressing in this conversation, I know we've touched upon so many deep ideas and hopefully listeners are taking some actionable out of this, but I want to put this down into perspective because the name of your organization, Conversion Cow, that to me was what was really like, wow, how did that name come up? So just take a few minutes to just describe your... your expertise and experience and then the thought behind the name, if that makes Irwin Hau (30:53.678) Yeah. Irwin Hau (30:57.432) Yeah, no, please, thank you, thank you so much. One last one of what I'd tell my eight year old, find one thing that you believe and love and master it like there's no tomorrow. Go so hard into it and just be world class. That's what you should do. And so indirectly, that's what I've learned. So my thing is I felt when I was back in the day, I studied science, Utkarsh Narang (31:03.118) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (31:22.19) Hmm. Irwin Hau (31:26.588) I did master in advertising, I love everything to do with digital, and so I just so happened to fall into this kind of web design world. But I told you my love is for magic, communications, mastering attention I guess, with my sleight of hand sort of stuff. And then it dawned on me one thing, and it was actually one magic trick that helped me hit seven figures. Utkarsh Narang (31:35.758) Mm-hmm. Utkarsh Narang (31:44.216) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Irwin Hau (31:55.16) because I realized that if you can control someone's attention, you can do anything. So say right now I can control your attention and then bang, I pull out a pen again, right? I know if I move my pen up here, you're looking up here now. You're not looking at my face, you're not listening to me, you're not looking at your Ignite, your Spark, you're looking at this pen. But if I can master this attention, but rather than making a pen, I can make this a call to action, a phone number. Utkarsh Narang (32:04.952) Mm. Utkarsh Narang (32:08.856) Yeah. Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (32:13.142) Yeah, correct. Utkarsh Narang (32:22.254) Mmm. Irwin Hau (32:24.716) a form, an offer, we can do a lot. And so I decided to master website conversion. How to get your attention and make you take action. That is it, it's as simple as that. And so I started, my initial company was called Chromatix. We've been doing websites for 15 years, 15 plus years. And we've been playing around this whole psychology of attention and how to get someone's attention and. Utkarsh Narang (32:26.228) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (32:52.75) Mm. Irwin Hau (32:53.048) mastery of understanding user experience and so forth. Utkarsh Narang (32:56.366) Mm-hmm. Irwin Hau (32:58.436) But after analyzing 60, I think it's almost like 70,000 websites now, and I'm not talking 17, 70,000 And that's me personally. So I'm not talking about, I'm not adding up my team members plus team member. You know how people do that? They kind of add up everyone and go, we've got 4,000 years of experience. No, no, Personally, I'm that insane that I've actually analyzed that many sites. I've come to realize. Utkarsh Narang (33:07.278) Ooh, 70. I think I used the number 17 instead of. Utkarsh Narang (33:16.77) Yeah. Irwin Hau (33:28.58) that every, I'm going to call it lead generation or sales based website, answers four questions only. So imagine it, like a magic trick, like almost like a trick. Think of a business website. Could be your accountant, your lawyer, you know, I just looked at a Sparky's website, know, a Plumber, whatever. There's only four questions you ask when you go to these websites. Who are you? What do you do? Why should I choose you? And how do I get in touch with you? That's it. So who are you? What do you do? Why should I choose you? How do I get in touch with you? Utkarsh Narang (33:43.01) Hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Irwin Hau (34:10.148) Funny enough, Utkarsh, did you realize these same four questions are the same four questions I ask when I'm on a date. Or when I met my missus, I still remember, I was so nervous. My hands are sweaty, I didn't know what I was thinking. And I dressed up in a suit, maybe nice in this one, in a cafe and I'm waiting for her. I was wondering if I could get her attention, first thing. But the moment she sat down, Utkarsh Narang (34:20.824) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (34:30.072) Mm. Right. Irwin Hau (34:40.1) So she asked me these questions. Tell me about you. What do you do? Prove whatever you just said is true. Like the whys behind it. why did you do magic? Why did you study computer science? Why, like who have you performed for? Like she was really trying to find out like the truth behind what I said. And at the end she was like, you know, actually, can I have your number? Can we go on a second date? Can I book it in now? You know, like. Utkarsh Narang (34:45.102) Hmm Utkarsh Narang (35:01.422) Hmm. Hmm Irwin Hau (35:07.812) Can I fill in the form? Everything I'm saying is not rocket science. It's just human psychology at its basic. And so my question was, how do I make a website answer those four questions quickly and fast without changing the whole website? Because let's be honest, everything takes time and money. I don't have enough time and money. And so we made ConversionCow. ConversionCow is a software tool. Utkarsh Narang (35:09.506) Wow. Utkarsh Narang (35:15.624) Mm. Yeah. Yeah. Irwin Hau (35:37.764) that sits on any website built by anyone and answers these four questions. And my heart is that I improve someone's chance of getting a lead like the analogy of the soccer goals. My friend said to me, isn't conversion cow like soccer goals, but rather than goals being this big, you just made them like this big. Or like a dart board where the balls are this big, but you've just made the balls out this big. And I go absolutely right. Because can I Utkarsh Narang (35:39.81) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Utkarsh Narang (35:46.338) Hmm. Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (35:53.155) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (36:04.782) 100%. Irwin Hau (36:06.862) guarantee that you'll hit the dart board. Do play darts? Have you ever played darts before? You sound like a way better dart player than I do. So when I think, you had, actually pulling the pen again, if you had a dart and you threw it, I think you have a better chance because you're more skilled. But even if I made the balls like this big, does that mean you're guaranteed to hit it? No. But you improve your odds and I think that's... Utkarsh Narang (36:23.214) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Irwin Hau (36:36.76) what we would need to do in life. Always improve our odds in everything we do. And that's what conversion calories. So it's just a little pop out. Answers those four questions. That's it. Utkarsh Narang (36:47.758) Powerful. questions. do things in life that increase your chance of hitting the bullseye. Powerful, powerful. That's such a wonderful statement. And anyone who's looking to level up their game on the website, the link are going to be in the show notes. Find Irwin on LinkedIn and get in touch. And I think that'll be an amazing conversation. And he'll help you increase the size of the bullseye. But as we, it's been an insightful conversation, Irwin. And I can't thank you enough for all the wisdom and the experience and the the stories that you've shared and the pen. People should watch it on YouTube to witness the pen. Yeah. But if you were to now go down 30, 40, 50 years, you look young, I'm going to assume you're like 35. So 50 years from now, you're turning 85. And that 85 year old, maybe running marathons, maybe walking with a cane stick, maybe whatever stage that is. Irwin Hau (37:24.9) She's coming up. Utkarsh Narang (37:50.156) What would that 85 year old say to you? Irwin Hau (37:55.108) My 85 year old self would say to this 43 year old person, because I'm 43, so thank you for thinking I'm 35, is I would actually say well done for doing the same thing for the last 40 years because you're already living it right now. As in I don't need to wait and I don't think anyone needs to wait until they are 85 and I think that's my biggest summary. Utkarsh Narang (38:01.688) Mm-hmm. Irwin Hau (38:25.162) of the chart that my friend had. I don't know when my last day is. And I do not ever want to live with regret that I didn't make the most of each and every moment. So I'll admit to you, I don't have Netflix and I know it's strange. I don't watch as much TV or internet because to me there's other things rather than consuming things. that I just want to be able to experience, give, try, be with, be more intentional. And I don't want to wait till 85. So I would love to say, if I died today and God goes, that's your time, I'd be like, awesome. As in, let's not have to wait. Let's make the most of every, let's be. spiritually well, physically well, emotionally well, socially well, and absolutely kill it. And remember, there's a right time and the right place for everything, but no one says each, I kind of almost picture, actually, if someone had to physically, think of it as buckets or cups. I want all the water to be overflowing out of each one. And if it's not, that's okay, but at least have something in each one. Look into your purpose in life, your spiritual side. Utkarsh Narang (39:40.088) Mm-hmm. Utkarsh Narang (39:44.846) you Irwin Hau (39:52.708) Look at the social friendships and the people you have. Look at your physical health, you know. Don't just sit in your chair, go to the gym or eat well or something like that. Mentally, are you processing, talking, sharing, living life with people and looking after yourself? And if you feed all those buckets now, you'll never have to think about what the future will be because you're living it now. And I think that's my biggest joy of what I've... taken 43 years to work out. And I hope I can just do the best to inspire whoever I get to talk to or who is listening in this case, but for me in particular, my children, that they can also do the same and help others. Utkarsh Narang (40:23.054) You Utkarsh Narang (40:41.026) I'm little speechless and I'll tell you why. seemed throughout this conversation and we've only spoken for like 40 minutes here, it seemed that all my mirror neurons are getting to fire and it seems that I'm speaking to someone with whom my wavelength just matches because when you said I don't have Netflix, I have no idea what goes on Netflix. have my... my kids and wife enjoy it And then my wife would urge me to sit once in a while with her that, Utkarsh, it's the weekend. Can you come and sit and relax? And I've done that. But to me, there's less joy in that than all the things that you're speaking about, the experiences, not living with regret. And I think if a 25-year-old or a 30-year-old is listening to both of us who are in their 40s and you're listening to us and saying that you don't know, guys, what... being young in this age and era looks like. Just try it for a few weeks maybe. Just try it for a few weeks where you live with courage, where you live with no regrets, where you live with finding what you truly want from your life. it'll be, is the word that I use Irwin. Yeah. Irwin Hau (41:53.208) Yeah, and I totally agree. There's a fine line, just be sensible, be smart, but yeah, but back yourself and just do your best and that's all you can. And I think that's it. Do your absolute best and that's all we can expect of life. That's it. Utkarsh Narang (41:58.156) Yeah. Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (42:06.094) Amazing. Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (42:15.988) Love that. Thank you for all the thinking, the stories, the wisdom. I'm sure that people would have gotten a lot of value out of it. Here's what I'm recommending to those who are still with us. Go back and listen to this one more time and come up with three things. And I know we've almost, if we were to count on our fingers, I think our hands would be less to the value bombs that you've shared here, Irwin. But if you can come up with three things as a listener and take them and apply them to your life. think it'll be a job well done from both me and Irwin. And Irwin, thank you again for your time. I truly appreciate it and look forward to many conversations. I think this is not the only time that you will be here. Look forward to more. Absolutely. Take care of yourself. Talk to you soon. Irwin Hau (42:55.685) I look forward to staying in touch my friend, for sure, absolutely. Thanks lot, bye.

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