Utkarsh Narang (00:01.57) There are people who you silently admire for how they show up on LinkedIn. You don't know much about them, but you are always intrigued and curious to learn more. And that's what our guest today will share with me. Welcome to another episode of the Ignite Neurons podcast. It's a podcast where we have honest and scary conversations because they're unscripted. So Firoza, welcome to this conversation. How are you feeling? Feroza Engineer (00:07.753) you Feroza Engineer (00:25.387) I'm feeling ruddy and red. That is what your lovely video Ignited Neurons Podcast Studio is making me look lovely red. I love it! Utkarsh Narang (00:35.394) The colors, the colors are reflecting on you. Utkarsh Narang (00:41.134) You're red. You're painting the town red. Feroza Engineer (00:46.975) And a good to be. Utkarsh Narang (00:48.218) Amazing, We throw ourselves, both of us together, in the deep end of the pool with the very beginning of the podcast. And so the first question I have for you, Firoza, remember that eight-year-old Firoza growing up wherever you were, however you were growing in that stage, it's an interesting phase of life, that eight-year-old self. So if that eight-year-old self were to come and meet you right now and have a conversation with you, what might emerge? Feroza Engineer (01:10.825) Yeah. Feroza Engineer (01:21.877) You know when I was in my early thirties I had a really serious conversation with my parents and I remember asking them what did you love about me as a child? Like I think this was the first time I had a sit down conversation with my parents over a lunch table. They had come to see me in Bangalore. I was in Bangalore then. And my dad very cutely said Bindas. My daughter was Bindas. And I think that was the first time I heard this from him. Somebody whom I look up to, somebody whose validation was really important to me. So when I really look back by the 6, 7, 8, I think I am going to have lot of conversations with that 8 year old telling her that... Continue like in fact get a little bit more bold like don't worry like you might lose friends You might lose people but there are going to be wonderful people later who are going to come in your life So I think I'm going to encourage and dismantle that fear that eight-year-old Firoza had stuttering, stammering, high levels of social anxiety. I'm going to tell her that it's okay just continue. Continue sometimes places where purposefully you are excluded. Still build belonging. So I think building belonging just through courage. Open your mouth. Okay, here don't open your mouth. It's okay. I think I'm just going to encourage more be courageous, be bold. Utkarsh Narang (03:11.542) Wow. For our audience who don't fully maybe understand Hindi, Bindas is a word that we often use in India to... the word that's coming to me for all then correct me, carefree. Feroza Engineer (03:25.833) Yeah, yeah and I think the way my mom immediately translated it was or said was that bold like and maybe that is what kind of stayed with me like dad said Bindas and immediately mom was like yeah you were bold you were bold you will just Utkarsh Narang (03:38.67) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (03:45.87) Hmm. Feroza Engineer (03:46.789) And I didn't know that they felt like that. You know? That was my breakthrough or that was my... I didn't know they felt like this so strongly. So... And I always thought I'm saying the wrong thing at the wrong time. But that little reinforcement really makes me want to talk to my 8-year-old, 9-year-old self and go like, there's nothing wrong in what's going on. Just... Continue building inclusion, continue building belonging even in places where you may not feel yourself. Utkarsh Narang (04:25.289) Yeah, so powerful. I often ask my listeners, Feroza, to have like a notepad with them because you know, some things just strike you at the right time. And if you're not ready to receive it, then you'll forget about it by the end of this podcast. Yeah, you have a notepad as well. So first of all, this question, prompted you to ask your parent and sit down and have like a proper conversation because in Indian parents, for those who are outside India, Feroza Engineer (04:40.171) you Utkarsh Narang (04:51.214) for Indian parents to have a sit down conversation is a big deal. So to ask your parents at 30 years old, what did you do? 31, exactly 31. So what did you love about me as a child? Where did that come from? Feroza Engineer (04:59.083) 31 exactly. Feroza Engineer (05:05.931) Maybe here is where my parents are a slight outlier from the Indian parents. I come from a very progressive Zorastrian household. If one thing my grandmother drilled into all our heads was we are going to sit down and have a conversation. So I came from an upbringing where confrontation wasn't option. Like confrontation was, yeah, you sit down, you talk about it. And that usually would either happened on a weekend lunch table or like in evening, early dinner, early supper when it would be my grandmom, my parents, grandfather. So it was like a done deal or you know like sometimes as a child I would go like okay today what are we going to talk about or who's going to bring something up. So Utkarsh for somebody like me and from my family it was common practice. If it would be something dad would be reading in the newspaper he would talk about really openly or some Utkarsh Narang (05:54.893) Hmm. Feroza Engineer (06:05.741) that someone heard. Hence, think the timestamp of why this was important for me is because I think I'm 31 is when I came out to my parents and after I built that trust, that alignment that you know this is who I am. You accept me, you don't accept me but for the first time in my life I have accepted myself. Utkarsh Narang (06:26.829) Hmm. Feroza Engineer (06:35.025) So whether you do or don't, I would love for you to and imagine that conversation has happened like a month ago. And things got a little weird and once they kind of settle down, I just like wanted to find that moment and it wasn't planned with Kash. Like really in between passing the rice and passing the curry, I was like dad. I just want to know. Utkarsh Narang (06:52.942) Hmm. Feroza Engineer (07:03.256) was like again a very fluid conversation. So yeah that's that's really how it happened. Utkarsh Narang (07:06.926) Hmm. Beautiful. Beautiful. I'll come back to that conversation when to share and come out to your parents is also something that I imagined to be a massive conversation. I'll tell you why. had someone who 25 years, let me get the math right. Yeah. About 25 years ago confided in me and family friend or whatever. Don't want to reveal too much. They confided in me that they were gay and I was in grade 12 at that time. And I looked up to them as a, as a figure who you look up to, right? And it was so simple that conversation that I never thought. And I always think that that conversation should be really simple, but this hype Feroza that media has created where it seems like this conversation will be like earth shattering. There'll be tectonic shifts. There'll be a tsunami and there'll be something. Like it seems that the conversation should be like that. So I'll come back to that and I don't want to go to there yet. But that Bindas Firoza at eight years old. Let's go back to her. What were you doing at that time? Like how did this word bold and bindas came up? Feroza Engineer (08:19.325) Again see that's what I'm saying I heard this word in my thirties but I didn't know I would usually would usually think that why is it so tough for me to fit in or why am I weird? Because there isn't anybody like me which literally means either I would be bracketed as a tomboy or I would be bracketed as a jeeb. A jeeb is this Indian word which is weird like loosely translated to that or sometimes that sense of mystery of wanting to know this person more. Tall, lanky, tomboyish, is it called? Parsi? So if you were not in Bombay, erstwhile Bombay, Parsis were not that known. Like people wouldn't know, okay, who a Parsi is. So that itself would be mystery checkpoint number one. Utkarsh Narang (09:02.862) Mmm. Utkarsh Narang (09:22.094) That's cheating. Feroza Engineer (09:22.281) Then if I would open my mouth, okay, then came mystery checkpoint number two. Okay, what is this? So I think I just again right now maybe I'm extrapolating or I'm really trying to connect the dots. But as a child, it was just all about this is me, take time to know me. So I would show up with wanting to talk about myself or really ask people. Like I'm very curious about people in general. So I would assume people would bestow the same curiosity to me. Like literally it was like that cause and effect in my brain that if I am this, why are you not like this? Utkarsh Narang (09:52.718) Mm-hmm. Feroza Engineer (10:05.533) So I would try and fit in. would try and now I know the technical concept. The word is called building belonging. And I didn't know I was doing that. You know, by just asking questions or just going like even things, even things like, but why do you like to wear these clothes? Maybe I don't. Utkarsh Narang (10:13.134) Hmm. Yeah. Feroza Engineer (10:27.359) what are you thinking? Can we exchange clothes like you know when you're an eight year old talking to friends or... So I thought this was natural but then either when I would be met by silence or I would be met by exclusion that I am chilling with these group of friends all day long but then I'm not invited on the weekend for the birthday party. or I've had situations where I'm assuming these are my really good friends and everyone has huddled and they're like okay tomorrow we are going cycling in the morning at at 7 let's meet here and I'm like yes finally a group of friends to hang out with I take that one rupee cycle on hire one rupee an hour and I've reached that place at 7 a.m and there is no one. So they've lied to me and they are actually somewhere else just so that I don't participate in this or you know or stuff like that would really stumble me. But I would just somehow either not care or kind of not give up and very like very cutely the next day go like guys where were you all? I waited for you all. So sometimes through embarrassment and shame proofing. Some friends came around but the ones who were not meant to... You know, so I would always end up thinking I have definitely done something wrong. I should have said this. like... But now I know that wasn't needed. That wasn't. Utkarsh Narang (12:05.612) So interesting. mean, you growing up itself is so hard when you're 10 years, 11 years, 12 years old, the hormones are doing a mess in your body. Exactly. But that was my word. But I thought like, use the word but which my audience in outside of India will not but that is just a mix of a few things that tastes delicious. anyways, we'll have that conversation. So your body is a mess. Your mind is a mess. There's peer pressure. You want to build. Feroza Engineer (12:17.183) Rachel. Utkarsh Narang (12:34.726) belong is a very recent word it seems but yeah you want to belong and feel connected to the other person and here are these people who are avoiding you or or deliberately causing this harm. What was your journey through that phase to then, yeah, just explore yourself because it's a tough one for me to understand fully. Feroza Engineer (12:55.679) Yeah, again, was very tough for me to understand even as a child. I really feel I've understood this world or this, how we technically call it, this domain. I think only in the last decade when I truly accepted that. Yeah, this is who I am because you know Utkarsh, representation matters, exposure matters and sometimes it's, you know, we use all these big fancy words but can I see people like me? Growing up, am I hearing people like me? Radio, TV, friend circle, chilling on marine drive. Am I feeling people like me? Like are there conversations? So this whole cycle of... feel, see, think here like what we discuss as consultants in change management. So even for change to happen I need to the child or the human needs to have these certain like you know touch points and you kind of didn't have that growing up. You either had one nomenclature that homos. That was the nomenclature I grew up with or tomboy. Like I didn't even have the nomenclature of lesbian or you know gay came in much later. Bisexual, LGBT like much much later. So I would just be swinging between people either calling me gay, tomboy. Utkarsh Narang (14:22.243) Yeah. Feroza Engineer (14:34.939) or sometimes sadly in Bombay they would even attribute it to okay all these Parsis are crazy like well they are just see and there was again such such little representation whether in the media or in conversation you know when I was 12 there used to be a bookstore called Vijay Bookstore right opposite Grant Road West station Utkarsh Narang (14:48.098) Yeah. Feroza Engineer (15:03.383) It is still there, now it is converted into a gift store. It's no more a book store. But if you ask anybody from Grant Road, Tardeo, Slater Road area in Bombay, they will know the store. You could rent books, you could read books, you could buy all of that and all kinds of books. I was a member there, like you know take that one rupee, two rupee, one week you get the book. Utkarsh Narang (15:08.086) Hmm. Hmm. Feroza Engineer (15:32.327) I was usually on my usual haunt that okay what book should I pick up today? Should I pick up a comic? I would love that. I would love Asterix. Asterix was my favorite comic going. And suddenly I was like okay what are these magazines? And for the first time I saw magazines of Femina. And I think there some magazine called Society. And on Femina magazine... Utkarsh Narang (15:39.95) Mm. Utkarsh Narang (15:56.12) Hmm. Feroza Engineer (16:00.679) I see the front page like photo of Prince Manvinder Singh and he's dressed in his fineries but at the same time he's openly talking about that he's India's first openly gay prince and I still remember I was in between the alley of comic book and magazine is not thin and I'm like who is this person? I ended up reading the whole article I just went mental. Utkarsh Narang (16:27.246) magazine. Feroza Engineer (16:40.617) Like, and of course, like I'm getting guzzies telling you this or... Like for the first time in my life I was like, Oh my God! There are people like me or it is okay that even if I am a girl I do not like to wear the clothes of a girl and here look at a full fledged grown man he's dressed in jewelry, in makeup and he's talking Utkarsh Narang (17:02.157) Yeah. Feroza Engineer (17:11.347) I think my brain just exploded with happiness, with like abhi am... And I've actually spoken about this on LinkedIn because two years ago, one of my existing clients Schneider Electric, they invited me for a town hall during their DEI month. and they are like it's a very big deal we'll have 650 people login from the worldwide and we will also have one more guest speaker with you and we will let you know in two days time turns out they are the person in the platform with me on the stack Utkarsh Narang (17:54.442) is the prince prince Feroza Engineer (17:57.515) My team and I, we went mental. We just... my God! And I spoke about this on LinkedIn and it went kaboom. Like, Manvinder is my mentor now. I am so glad that the universe made our paths cross. And... Utkarsh Narang (18:02.732) I'm getting goosebumps just listening to this. Feroza Engineer (18:25.661) It just reinforced that whole thing of... I am going to continue doing this work keeping my head down and my spirits high. The way Manav Indar was a ray of hope for me. Maybe my work for someone somewhere is that little familiarity touch point of mere jaisa koi hai. There is somebody like me. Like, you know, and it was just... Utkarsh Narang (19:01.07) No, Imagine being an Indian and I'm using very recent example for my life, right? Imagine, and I don't know if it compares. So correct me if I'm wrong. Let's have a dialogue about this. Imagine being the only Indian in Australia, three, 30 million people, and you're the only Indian. I'm putting myself into those shoes and you cannot relate to anyone. If you try to speak your language, that does not, they don't understand it because they feel like you're in. I'm using the word alien. Feroza Engineer (19:40.139) you Utkarsh Narang (20:02.092) with no disrespect to any aliens. No aliens were harmed in the shooting of this program. But they consider you to be alien. And there are these 30 million of them who feel like, where did you come from? Why did you come here? And you're trying to understand them. They're trying to understand you, but they're not because they're judging you and there's unconscious bias, all of that happening. So I'm seeing as you're telling me the story. If, if it would not have been for that magazine. Feroza Engineer (20:29.291) you Utkarsh Narang (20:29.428) It would not have been for Prince Manvinda to show up in front of you and for the universe to plan that. Who would have been your anchor? How would you have like, like this, like visualize this with me without that magazine, with that magazine, how has life been different? Feroza Engineer (20:39.531) you Feroza Engineer (20:47.339) You know, and maybe it's such a beautiful question Utkarsh. I have really not thought about it in this direction versus like I really feel that that confirmation bias worked for me and I'll explain this to you how I saw this. I was like oh my god. I was like oh my god. My mind was just blown. Of course after that this this extremely obsessed mind of mine if there is... it's like I am also that person that if I am interested in one thing I will get obsessed with it till I figure it out to its teeth. So when I saw this I like that means I am not alone. That means there are people like me. That means there is more to this. And then it is such a beautiful thing alignment that... when you accept certain things about yourself as a... as an organic characteristic not as a strength or a weakness. Even Simon Sinek talks about this. does not believe in strengths and weaknesses. He believes that we all have characteristics and in different contexts these characteristics would amplify as strengths for you to either salvage the situation, get out of it, go deep or they would show up as an area of weakness because you could be controlled by hard emotions there, right? Feroza Engineer (22:28.583) I really felt that because once I had exposure, had that input data that there are people. Then my brain, I think, just got attuned to there are people like you. you could end up seeing more. When you see more, it's okay. So from... I don't know that sense of... I think that sense of grounding came in. That now, when I'm walking around the street and if I see a man slightly effeminate or slightly dressed the non-traditional way, I am going to look at them and smile. And maybe just while walking, go like, I see you. Utkarsh Narang (23:15.694) Yeah. Feroza Engineer (23:15.743) Like, I do that. I still do that. Whether we want to colloquially joke about it and go like, all gay people have their gay darb. they have their gay darb. Yeah, we do because we sense energy. We sense trauma. There is instant empathetic resonance of being oppressed. like instantly you can feel that vibe and maybe some of us can a little bit more than others. So I really went around with my own confirmation bias that I'm okay. I would see another girl or another woman being tomboyishly dressed, short hair, whatever. would go like... Like, oh, you know, I would have like that. And literally that is how life went ahead. that I naturally conformed the person I was. I was trying to really be okay with it. And I had a lot of love to give. I still do. I think unconditionally. I don't think sometimes in that whole give and take scenario versus if something works, it works. And... Maybe through that certain places I learned certain life lessons and in certain places it just got sharper that you know this is what I want or this is maybe something that I don't want but Utkarsh what a brilliant question like I haven't thought about it ever in the angle of Utkarsh Narang (24:42.253) Mm-hmm. Feroza Engineer (24:51.487) Yeah and I'm actually I've not spoken about this on any part like I'm actually speaking about this for the first time that it was my own confirmation bias that I'm okay, it's cool, there are gonna be people like you or different or you know and just I see you just give them a Utkarsh Narang (25:12.302) nudge a little elbow. see you, but you know, here's the challenge. And you use this word GEDAR, which I'd never heard. I am like, I feel hurt that someone says GEDAR to anyone, any human being. And you know, the first time I started to think and speak and be informed about this idea of diversity, equity and inclusion and this and that, and then LGBTQI and then men and women, and then all these imbalances that we've created in the world. breathless. I kept thinking, how can it be so hard to just look at each other as human beings? Like, why can't we? Is it okay if I swear? Why can't we fucking simplify? Yeah, sorry, I forgot. Why can't we fucking simplify it? Like, it is so simple that I see you for who you are. Feroza Engineer (25:55.433) Yeah, yeah, I mean, you're so- you Utkarsh Narang (26:08.842) and who you are is your choice. You can be and you should be and you have the power to be whoever the hell you want to be. And who the hell am I to judge though is like judges like a big word. Who am I to even question you? Whoever you like think that Utkarsh's way is the right way or Firoza's way is not the right way or Firoza's way is the right way. Feroza Engineer (26:31.915) Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (26:38.912) I see you. I see you. Feroza Engineer (26:42.101) think I'm here because of that, right, Utkash? Like, imagine the opening line of your podcast, right? We've been chatting, we've been commenting on each other's writing, we've been cheering each... Like, it's literally that, right? It's that I see you, you see me, and maybe we see value in, what can we talk about? What can we together create? I think we're creating something here, right? Utkarsh Narang (26:52.046) Yeah, yeah, it fits whatever. Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (27:04.706) Yeah. Correct. Correct. Of thin air, which we did not both imagine. That's why this is scary, right? Because sometimes you can create something that can change the trajectory of someone's life. What if there's someone listening to this and they now look at Prince Manindar Singh and they look at you and they feel, I needed this confirmation. Feroza Engineer (27:28.533) Some biases are good. Utkarsh Narang (27:30.68) They are. They are. Love it. There's an Indian ad folks for a detergent powder, says, kuch sab daag achche hote hai. Something like that. Right. Do I remember it correctly? Yeah. Yeah. Daag achche hain. Now they'll sue us. So daag achche hain, which means that if your clothes get dirty, it's a good thing because you're using them because you're playing into the mud with them or whatever that might be. And so some biases are actually helpful. Feroza Engineer (27:40.309) Yeah, a real dark journey, so fix it. Utkarsh Narang (28:00.312) I don't know where to go from here. Feroza Engineer (28:03.051) I'm feeling sad. I'm like this is excellent. Now what next? Utkarsh Narang (28:07.128) Yeah, this is therapy. This is therapy for both of us that we're not paying for. wow. But you know, this, I forgot to mention, I typically do a hypothesis at the start of the show and I have these three words on my notes that we'll talk about self discovery, authenticity, inclusivity. And I feel these are three words which have been misused, abused and overused. So I feel people listen to them and they switch it off because they feel it'll be something that's going to be useless. Does not apply to me. Feroza Engineer (28:17.77) Hmm. Feroza Engineer (28:22.451) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (28:43.416) But I still feel that if we just talk about self discovery today and we'll do podcast part two, three, four, authenticity and inclusion, just this idea of self discovery. we let's zoom out because what you are sharing at 12 years old being the Bindas girl that you were and then meeting Prince Manvinder in the alley of comics and magazines that changed the trajectory of your life. But not everyone's lucky, right? So there are people who are Feroza Engineer (28:50.707) Mm-mm. Feroza Engineer (28:55.936) Hmm. Feroza Engineer (29:08.619) Thank Utkarsh Narang (29:13.326) who are still 30 years old, 47 years old, 53 years old, still living lives that are not true to themselves. How do you feel about that? Feroza Engineer (29:36.543) doesn't have very straight-jacketed answers because we are all not the same and just you know to your earlier point also that why can't we just see each other for what we are why is it I mean that is the fundamental truth we all are trying to surface with and more than an individual's ability to showcase grit or to showcase that power to the resistance or you know more than that maybe let's say I was a little shame proof and I use this word very very intentionally not shameless I have never trampled on anybody's esteem I have never shot a bullet from somebody's shoulder or I have never stolen somebody's sunshine in the process of being shame proof versus holding my truth or going like this is who I am it's okay if you can't accept if or if maybe you can't understand however a lot of children in our country and maybe I'll speak about our country with Kush and maybe zone in on India We are culturally very strong, individualistically not so much. So our yardsticks of success are rooted in the cultural yardstick of success. So if your culture and your system validates it, supports it, then you are right. So your individual truth has no space of even for it to come out. For example, just a very baseline example and I've heard this from parents. I've heard this and I've heard these as questions teachers have asked, parents have asked during town halls or you know, I get invited to schools and colleges for just these small intimate... Feroza Engineer (31:51.487) gatherings or you know when only when you talk about talk about these things you break that bias or you break that taboo Like parents asking me things like, by what age do you think my child will know that they are from the community, like 15, 16? Maybe when they mature by that age? I'm like, they can know even by age too. It is not some switch or it is not the phase of the year. That this year I will be gay, next year I will be bi, the year after that I would like to be transgender, the year after that I'm gonna try intersex. It's not a quantum phase, it is science. Like let's pause and slightly understand that. However, that part of science is not rooted in our culture. Utkarsh Narang (32:37.985) oof Feroza Engineer (32:48.329) That part of science is not rooted in our systems of education, academia, social awareness. So there is no nomenclature, there is no emotional language. How do you describe? How do you describe body dysmorphia? Is there even body dysmorphia? If your four-year-old boy loves playing with Barbies and loves wearing scarves and not ties. It's a four-year-old. So can you for a moment pause and go like this is a four year old's instinct. This is not learnt behaviour. This is not violence. Violence is learnt behaviour and you don't seem to have an issue with that. But you have an issue with your four year old wearing a scarf or your five year old daughter playing with GI Joes. Utkarsh Narang (33:23.918) Correct. Feroza Engineer (33:39.145) Like I loved Barbies. I had a lot of... And I loved G.I. Joe's as well. My parents were always confused. Okay, what is going on? Like just she loves these ponies. She loves these little dolls. Barbies is a big G.I. Joe fan. Like go, go. I was trying to do a... So look at it like when you said zoom out, that's how we need to zoom out. That our books don't talk about it. Our culture doesn't talk about it. It doesn't support it. There is no... So where is there space for individual truth to emerge? So whenever there is a child who is emerging with their individual truth, the first place of psychological safety is parents. The first place of psychological safety is the school. So if we don't start building that, those measures there, educating parents that it is natural, it is scientific. Utkarsh Narang (34:22.062) Mmm. Feroza Engineer (34:37.215) I'll give you one example. was not okay with this example. A parent raises their hand in a town hall and... now I know was just trying to be cheeky and was trying to prove a point. Sometimes I feel you have come here to improve your points or you have come here to prove a point like I don't know. So he goes like Firoz, all this is fine. I understand. I understand what you mean. But the other day my child comes to me and tells me they identify with a table and they are a table. Utkarsh Narang (34:55.968) Yeah. Feroza Engineer (35:10.633) What do I say to that? It is not even LGBTQI +, you you are talking about all this identity and sexual... My child said I identify as a table dad. I would like to be a table. There's just stunned silence in the room, like just pin drop like really. I'm looking at everyone and as the facilitator in me I'm like I definitely have a take on this but I said parents what do you all feel about what you just heard from XYZ? One parent who's a parent of a... LGBTQ child stands up and goes like I think you have another problem then This is not an LGBTQI problem. If child feels they are a table this is another problem altogether I'm like good job Utkarsh Narang (36:05.208) Great idea. Feroza Engineer (36:06.517) Good job in identifying that have you first of all as a parent built a safe space for the child to even discuss this that dad what is this? What does this mean or why? You are not seeing this as a child's affront behavior. You are clearly not and you have not created a space for the child to be even okay in telling you because I till date, I till date who have friends in my extended social circle who are straight but who are effeminate men and that's okay or who are straight women but are slightly more tomboy I was like these two things are different like you know just try and understand this so what you don't understand you fear What you don't have exposure to, what you don't have examples or sadly you don't have that... You don't have that law of large numbers playing with you. Right? Like... Then you don't even have the guts to maybe even talk about it. And if my child comes and tells me that they identify themselves as a table, I should just shut up. And I should tell my child to shut up. Because if they open their mouth in school or... Utkarsh Narang (37:12.13) Yeah. Feroza Engineer (37:30.859) in front of family. What will people say? Or for all the audience out there, there is this one sentence which every Indian child has grown up with and it is called, say? I'm like, are these people paying your bills? Are these people putting food in your mouth or being there when you need? Then just, these are not your people. Utkarsh Narang (37:35.33) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (37:45.42) I knew it was coming. Feroza Engineer (38:00.021) Sorry. Utkarsh Narang (38:00.034) People Feroza Engineer (38:14.155) you Feroza Engineer (38:20.459) you Feroza Engineer (38:26.314) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (38:28.502) original self original selves show up when they hide it because of what will people say? How do you support them? Like, and, you're a coach, I'm a coach so we can have that area of conversation as well. But yeah, how do you support people who are not ready to show themselves as their true selves? Feroza Engineer (38:32.734) Hmm. Feroza Engineer (38:36.5) Hmm. Feroza Engineer (38:49.715) I also feel that is alright if I have to be true to diversity and if I have to be true to what internal equity means. I'm always telling people that before you start creating an allyship charter for your organization or before you come out and go like okay know Feroza I would like to be an ally what can I do you know but my friends think if I'm an ally then they will assume I'm key Utkarsh Narang (38:53.58) Love it. Love it. Feroza Engineer (39:19.629) or how can we do this? I'm like, you know, like not a lot of people understand this and maybe this is really one of my life's mission as well that the first place where where allyship originates is within. If you are not in alignment with the hard parts of you with the dark parts of you. If you are not accepting the diversity within then you are not going to be authentic in spite even of your vulnerabilities and not because of them. This is very deep. This is very where I am always urging leaders also to go like let's pause before we move ahead. Utkarsh Narang (40:16.206) Let's pause. Let's pause. I want us to pause. Let's create some space and silence. Feroza Engineer (40:21.387) you Utkarsh Narang (40:24.238) The first place where the Alloy ship starts is within. Feroza Engineer (40:33.886) totally. Utkarsh Narang (40:35.138) that hits really hard. Feroza Engineer (40:41.087) there. Utkarsh Narang (40:42.062) Hmm. Hmm. Tell me more. Tell me more. Feroza Engineer (40:51.157) You will observe it. You will observe how for so many of us, allyship doesn't start within. You will observe it how we introduce ourselves, whether straight or gay. You will observe it in corporate houses where even simple introduction activities or review meetings or calibration conversations go like, okay, tell me about the last three months. Tell me about some things you did well and some things that did not work well. Usually the things that did not work well come out first. and then and there. So you will also see lack of allyship right there or people just not just not being okay not being okay. Utkarsh Narang (41:34.254) Mmm. Mmm. Feroza Engineer (41:37.619) And now neuroscience apparently is calling it a superpower. Your ability to handle productive discomfort. Superpower. Your ability to be okay, not being okay. It's a superpower post-COVID. Hang in there. In the resistance zone. Hang in the learning zone. I'm like, I'm goddamn doing that my whole life. You speak to any oppressed person. Utkarsh Narang (41:58.766) Mmm. Feroza Engineer (42:02.921) We have been doing that our whole goddamn life. You know, and that's why when you work around degrees of oppression, when you are talking about people from different areas, when you work on the lowest bottom, you know, parameter of injustice, you do create that rebel effect. So I can't understand even when in our country when people talk about, we must focus on caste issues, we must write now what are these LGBTQI people, why are they going pah pah, we must focus on PWD, we must focus on women, women, yes I agree. We need to focus on some bottom common denominator where all of us feel included or all of us have that little aspiration that wow, if this got addressed, now we will get addressed. So what are you talking about this resistance mindset girl? Ask any oppressed person, they will tell you. There is not so much room for growth mindset. Well, whole context is different. Utkarsh Narang (43:08.974) Mmm. Utkarsh Narang (43:16.27) Mmm. Feroza Engineer (43:17.707) Right? Like why don't we have so many Indian authors talking about growth mindset, resistance, learning curve, why do we usually have the whites? Right? Again, you and I can open Pandora's box here, but I guess you understood what I meant. Utkarsh Narang (43:20.878) I have to need me. Utkarsh Narang (43:30.99) Yeah. Yeah. I do. I do. And I'm stuck like this is like when you stand in the mountain, then you shout something, right? And then it keeps echoing this word internal allyship is, is, is deeply resonating, but I have no idea. Maybe there are parallels in how I have approached and how you approach it, but I'd love to take from your understanding. How does one build this internal allyship? Feroza Engineer (44:05.707) That is the birthplace of authenticity. Feroza Engineer (44:14.133) highly misunderstood concept it is treated as some charismatic outside qualitative layer it is usually confused with okay a charismatic leader will be authentic or it is assumed with you know you can you can live your life with authenticity you have money so wealth is assumed to be the you know to be the glue or the conduit to be authentic or usually authenticity is somewhere sometimes in suppressed cultures looked at as rebellion. Utkarsh Narang (44:51.438) Hmm. Feroza Engineer (44:52.415) But again, see the common denominator here that if you do not allow me to live my individual truth, which is science, which is who I am, and sadly, the government needs to decide what I wear, what I eat, who I sleep with, who do I marry, on what side of the road should I walk, how should I ride? Like sometimes I don't even go that far. Sometimes I leave people speechless saying, forget all this. this lgbtqi for a moment forget all of that let me tell you how this world is built for right-handed people And suddenly in the room, these... Suddenly in the room, even with senior leaders, they somehow, these left-handed people go like, yeah, my whole life, door knobs, jackets, clothes, buttons, brushing cup, hospitality, everything is for right-handed people. I'm like, now, pause that. and take it slightly deeper that imagine you are born and you are told you need to and you need to get married to a man. or you need to get married to only a woman but your biology, your biochemistry, your physiology, your own psychosocial makeup has already started with a dissonance checkpoint already so this what you said internal allyship where will it come from? Utkarsh Narang (46:21.1) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (46:44.248) Hmm. Feroza Engineer (46:44.339) right and then where will authenticity come from? So authenticity is you being you in spite of your vulnerabilities not because of them. Authenticity is also you being okay not being okay. And how you said let's hold space with neutrality. Maybe let's hold space without judgment. Do I need to label everything? Feroza Engineer (47:22.633) You know, so that is where this whole call and I've spoken about this on LinkedIn. I've written about it. I do this as curriculum in my conversations that like before we go out there Tom Toming allyship for somebody else. Feroza Engineer (47:40.875) First, let's talk about the things you think you are shitty at and why. like, are you uncomfortable? Like, okay, Utkarsh, let's do this, right? Like something that I do. Like, Utkarsh, tell me on the top of your head what are like maybe the two things you feel you suck at. There you go. go. Message received. So now see when this happens right, when this exactly happens live I'll try to extrapolate it as you took time to think about Utkarsh Narang (47:59.864) To answer that question? Yeah. Feroza Engineer (48:17.727) maybe what you are not good at but you were kind of fumbling to openly talk about it in front of others. You fumbled slightly. If I would have asked you in your safe space if it was a one-on-one coaching conversation, survey related then you would have said, yeah, these are my two men. But in a social setup, in a culture motley setup, you thought twice, you looked around but... Utkarsh Narang (48:23.8) Yeah. Feroza Engineer (48:47.901) It is so easy for you to judge somebody else's inauthenticity. How does like... How is your mind pivoting so... Not me, but I can judge them. not wearing the clothes that I have seen. talking a language which I don't know. Or they eat all of this. What is this? This pure veg. I have an issue with this Brahminical hegemony still. Pure veg. What is pure veg? Utkarsh Narang (49:00.174) drastically. Yeah. Good. Feroza Engineer (49:16.747) I had to fight to ten male with people and I don't hear this nonsense around what a pure bitch. What is that? Like just and move with the times or like just is your brain not evolving? Like is it what is going on? So that is where I feel is birthplace of authenticity is messy. It is not perfect. It is not authenticity then. If it is perfect then you have not understood this. Utkarsh Narang (49:39.148) Yeah. Yeah. Feroza Engineer (49:46.335) Yep. You're breathing with cash, have some water. Utkarsh Narang (49:48.865) Oof. Yeah, at the start you were needing some water, now I need some water. Brilliant. But I love this. I love this. This is, Feroza Engineer (49:59.531) Sorry. Utkarsh Narang (50:03.522) This is from lo kya kahenge what will people say to build in internal equity to finding the birthplace of authenticity which was never introduced to me to this idea of I see you as simple as that. Let's maybe just start from there. I see you. However you show up whenever you show up whenever you show up and who am I to Yeah, to judge. then as I'm saying this, you know, the, afterthought that's coming to me is that we're so judgmental of ourselves also in so many ways. And we can't like, yeah, I see the expression. see the expression. You were, you were so honest with that expression. People, people who are listening to this on a podcast platform, switch on YouTube right now and look at Firoza's expression. The eyes rolled. Feroza Engineer (50:47.531) my god, so much brain. Feroza Engineer (50:58.581) So. Utkarsh Narang (51:01.036) from the skull to the neck to the back to the back to the eye sockets. You better stop this. This is is unhealthy. This is unhealthy stuff. Feroza Engineer (51:01.739) . Feroza Engineer (51:06.772) God I'm getting redder and redder what is going on. Yeah. Feroza Engineer (51:17.055) Yes. Utkarsh Narang (51:20.002) But yeah, how about judging ourselves? What's your thought on that? Feroza Engineer (51:25.355) everybody judges themselves. Feroza Engineer (51:31.787) Again, I really think that it is also something that is taught and it is also something that is caught. So I have always seen, you know, people who judge quickly, criticize quickly. That has been a value that has not been taught. That has been a value the child has vicariously caught in interactions. Okay, mummy judged the postman. Postman got a firing. After that look at mummy's mood. Mummy seems to be so happy. I want to be in this happy mood. What do I do? Judge somebody else. on the lunch table I saw my father judge the way his own mother made rotis and said what is this? This is not the kind of roti I am chapati. It's a food item. I'm used to. Please make a blurb. What was that? And immediately after he did that in five minutes he got fresh, fresh hot roo... Wow! This is what it... This is what it gets you. So sadly what is happening is the centers of the brain that are responsible to trigger curiosity are freaking given a sabbatical for life. Utkarsh Narang (52:44.438) I must do that. I must. Feroza Engineer (53:01.321) And if those centers of the brain are just not used, just not. Curiosity is a skill or like I say, it is the only antidote to anxiety. It is. You can read up on research, science talks about it, the medical field talks about it. That is why are we building curious children, curious cultures, curious corporate houses to ask questions, to suspend judgment, to pause before we pivot or to pause before we just evaluate, assess and close. Okay, what is the data I am missing? If you had to tell me I had to look at this differently, how would it be? somebody else says that you know I'm fasting today I don't think I will eat this can you pause and ask and go like did you know you do this fast on an everyday basis or is there something and let's say you don't believe in it maybe you are not coming from that culture that religion that caste that you do you know Utkarsh Narang (54:08.782) Yeah Feroza Engineer (54:09.289) You don't have to get bothered with their Saturday fast or their Friday fasting or whatever. Like how does it matter? Utkarsh Narang (54:12.814) Kodak. Utkarsh Narang (54:18.818) They're not taking your food. They're not putting food into your mouth. They're not eating. What's wrong with you? Feroza Engineer (54:24.447) So sometimes I feel just do people just judge also to fit in. Utkarsh Narang (54:31.63) power bombs. Do people judge to fit in? And I think it's a very cultural thing. I'm telling you because but in saying that it feels I'm judging. Feroza Engineer (54:47.691) because you might think it is the right thing to do or you might think what is allowed becomes culture. Utkarsh Narang (54:55.406) Hmm. Feroza Engineer (54:55.465) And that is the fundamental truth. That is how I would explain culture to a 5 year old or a 50 year old. Culture is what gets repeated. Because culture is what is allowed. So in my family growing up if I have seen people criticizing, dissing each other, judging, then feeling good, then the other person also feels good and there is this cycle then I am no more looking at judgment as a bad thing. For me, judgment is the top order skill set to have in school, in college and you will see Utkarsh I am not saying anything which is... So out of the box. No, but then you will see that people who really do this They do it everywhere. They are the people whom I call they have a solute. They have a problem for every solution Like really I mean, you know what I mean like whether it is you know, you're judgmental or you're critical And then you are the most critical about yourself most because inside allyship hasn't Authenticity hasn't happened. You are not okay here. So how can you see somebody else being okay in their diversity? How dare you? I wasn't okay. I wasn't given that chance. So I will ensure you also don't store the line. Get in line. Get with us or get outside. There is no other room. Utkarsh Narang (56:08.207) Yeah, love it. Love it. Good. Utkarsh Narang (56:26.381) Don't get that done. Feroza Engineer (56:33.471) Whereas literally I was that person growing up I would have my own little... You know, so it would be like a misfits together. So I would be like, okay, maybe I'll have an introvert with me. Maybe I will have somebody like some child who doesn't talk at all. And we'll be three of us and then we'll have the best time in the party. Or we'll be like... It's okay. And I'm still that person in the crowd. I'm usually not in the center. People would assume maybe because of my effervescent energy, no loud crowds. Large crowds do not excite me. Large gatherings, I'm like, my God, no. But I'm still that person where I'll be like, hey, where can I find my safe space? Let's stand, chill, make other people feel comfortable, included first. Utkarsh Narang (57:10.766) Hmm. Feroza Engineer (57:22.195) you know and are not judged and just peace Utkarsh Narang (57:28.894) beautiful. So to summarize. Allyship starts from the inside. Where is the birthplace for authenticity? It is messy. It is messy. So do that inner work because unless you do that inner work, nothing's going to change on the outside. And I love the fact the thumbnail of our podcast episode should say, I see you. think these three words can, I don't know if I love you change the world or not. I see you can definitely change the world. Feroza Engineer (57:43.176) Mm-hmm. Feroza Engineer (58:05.437) At least for me. At least for me. Utkarsh Narang (58:06.614) At least for me. Yeah. And as we reach this end, which I don't want this episode to end, but it has to someday, some, some at some point and maybe we'll do a part two. But if that future self of you, that 80 year old, those beautiful wrinkles, those beautiful, however you want your hair to look black or gray or brown or red or blue or whatever, that beautiful self of you. Feroza Engineer (58:13.364) Yeah. Feroza Engineer (58:17.983) Definitely. Utkarsh Narang (58:35.816) at 80 years old. If she were to now come back to you and tell you, Feroza, this is my advice to you. Feroza Engineer (58:52.573) I sometimes do find myself still till date. Feroza Engineer (59:06.089) I do find myself struggling. with really trying to educate people and I say this again fully accepting the allyship within that maybe now I want to slowly reach a point where your incompetence and your inability to understand a different perspective I don't want to look at that lens as the whole you. I also want to tell myself that okay if this relationship matters, if it's a work relationship, if it's a family member, a relative, maybe not a close circle but I tried. or I try to create an environment to help you to not be so judgmental and I'm here not talking about LGBTQI people I'm talking in general racism, casteism, just... Feroza Engineer (01:00:23.923) I sometimes get very literal with these people that I can't help you like now sorry thanks. and maybe my 80 year old self will go like it's okay let go you do the work don't go around trying to educate people or don't go around trying to really force people to have an open mind because that defeats the purpose of an open mind so maybe maybe that maybe my 80 year old self will tell me that Feroza Engineer (01:01:25.869) So maybe that is the deliberate pause I would want my 80 year old self to accept. That it's okay, Feroza. You don't have to go around pushing for inclusion. You build belonging or you build that environment for psych safety and allow inclusion to happen. So I am really in a place of my life now at the age of 43 where I am so deeply aligned and convinced that I don't need to talk extra. I don't need to write extra. I need to be myself around you, create that environment of psych safety for me. And if I'm able to do that for you even just in that environment, maybe your mind will open. But I don't want to sit down and go like, Utkar, you know I didn't like you said this, maybe let me educate you. You know, and I have moved past that now. Like, so that's what when you said 80 year old, I'm like I'm gonna be proud of my 80 year old self telling me you built psych safety by being yourself. Yeah, and that's it. And really, like for me, one of the biggest compliments I've ever received from people is, Piroza, I just feel safe around you. That's it. That's it. I don't want I like you, I like you or this, that. I just want that you feel safe. Like that's it. Utkarsh Narang (01:02:48.942) you Utkarsh Narang (01:02:53.773) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (01:03:33.74) worth the time that we spent. I see you. I felt safe. And I love this conversation. Thank you for showing up as you always do. Before we leave to our podcast listeners, share with someone who you think might enjoy this to our YouTube viewers who we need help from to appease the algorithm. Comment, like, share, subscribe, whatever has to be done. Feroza Engineer (01:03:41.315) Thanks. Utkarsh Narang (01:04:01.282) My team always scolds me with, Kash, why did you say this in the end? And so I have to make a point that I say these things, but thank you from the bottom of my heart. Feroz, I expected an intriguing conversation. I expected that we will shatter some, some things tectonic. And I think there's so much left, but I loved where we went and where we landed. So thank you for that. Feroza Engineer (01:04:06.115) I am so glad your questions nudged a deeper curiosity and that's why like just being curious is the most important elemental skill. I want to treat it as a skill you know. So just thank you for doing that especially for me to accept that if I did not feel aligned within and if I did not go ahead getting that confirmation bias for myself I wouldn't have built this foundation and I wouldn't be doing this body of work that I am so thank you Utkarsh Narang (01:05:07.214) Thank you. Virtual hugs. Virtual hugs. Sending virtual hugs. Till we meet again.