Utkarsh Narang (00:01.356) If there's one thing common with all 8 billion human beings on this planet, that is that we all have an inner voice that's more challenging to us than rewarding. We have this inner voice that's giving us shame all the time. And our guest today helps women, but this will be valuable for men as well, break up with the voice of shame and achieve freedom in its true sense. Welcome to The Conversation, Emma. Looking forward to this podcast. Emma Lyons | Trauma Matrix (00:28.227) Thank you so much for having me. Utkarsh Narang (00:31.372) The first question Emma that we ask our listeners and we want to be in the deep end as soon as we hit the record button is that if that eight year old Emma, the eight year old little girl growing up wherever she was, if that Emma were to come and meet you right now, what kind of a conversation do you think will emerge? Emma Lyons | Trauma Matrix (00:39.223) Yeah. Emma Lyons | Trauma Matrix (00:52.041) Well, I think I would, would, you know, mentor her because my, my eight year old self like did not believe in herself and how it carried a lot of shame and. didn't really know what it felt like to have confidence in herself. this is what I would really focus on. And she carried a crazy amount of shame. I thought it was normal growing up that people would be feeling suicidal. That was normal to me. thought everyone had that. But it turns out I was just carrying a lot of shame. Utkarsh Narang (01:27.918) Is an 8 year old where did that shame come from Emma? Emma Lyons | Trauma Matrix (01:31.309) Well. It all became clear when I started to recognize because I thought my family was normal and loving and I was doing the 12 steps and everyone had these horror stories and I was like, I must be the problem. You know, I thought I was the problem. But really, what I what I recognized is that my mom much later later in life is that my mom shows pretty much all the traits of a covert narcissist. And my family is very dysfunctional, but it's very violently dysfunctional and within dysfunctional and narcissistic systems, the children get roles. So you don't really get to be yourself. You have the narcissist, the head of the household. Then you might have an enabler. This is the person who kind of lets the abuse happen. You have the scapegoat, which is the child, usually the most sensitive child gets selected and they basically get to be the landfill for the family system. of all the unprocessed trauma, drama, shame. Really, it's a lot of shame. Let's be honest, without the shame, the trauma doesn't really go down generations like we see in humans. So you become the depository for all that. And this explains so much about my experience as a child, because I from a very young age, I was like, I'm ugly, I'm stupid, I'm a failure. know, those things, those thoughts don't just come out of outer space. They come from the system, from dysfunctional. And this is a family system theory. And then you also have the golden child as well, which is the favorite child. And all these roles are shame based roles. So even the golden child, which is the good role and the good role position in the family, they these people never get to be themselves because they have to act. They have to play a role for the family to keep the family afloat. But the scapegoat is the one who Emma Lyons | Trauma Matrix (03:31.717) comes off hardest because they carry all that shame. And they can end up having deepened addiction, on aliving themselves, a multitude of problems coming from all that shame that they're carrying from childhood. Utkarsh Narang (03:51.686) It's, it's, fascinating because you know, this, uh, when you said these three phrases, I'm ugly, I'm stupid, and I'm a failure. I coach people who are in their thirties and forties. And, and I see this still happen where they're in a meeting and these words are. Repetitively going on in their head. And, as you're saying, it could be natural, right? Where you feel like this is, this is, this is how just the human brain works. So let's, let's try and yeah, let's try and make it out. Emma Lyons | Trauma Matrix (04:16.351) No, it's not natural. I will talk about that. Well, yeah, mean, shame is normalized in our society, but that doesn't mean that it's normal. Shame is always a weapon, is weapon of control and manipulation. If there's someone here who's bothering me, child who's speaking and I want to shut him up, I can shame him and he'll be quiet very quickly. And I might tell myself I'm doing that for his benefit. But it's the definition of manipulation. Manipulation is basically gaslighting someone and trying to get them to do something and telling them it's for them rather Utkarsh Narang (04:21.761) Yeah, yeah. Emma Lyons | Trauma Matrix (04:51.181) than for you. And that's what shame is. Shame is always about the comforter of the person doing the shaming. And the person being shamed says, it's for your own good, you know. And this is the this is the number one tool of the narcissist. And it's a tool that we all have been habituated to use because it's normalized in our society as a mechanism to get people to behave. It's it's it's put out there as some kind of compass of morality. even though in truth shame fails to help people to behave better. It works in the moment, but in the medium to long term it's an absolute failure. But regardless of that, our society is constantly gaslighting us to believe that shame is good for you. Even within the psychological world, they talk about something called toxic shame and something called healthy shame. know, so therefore there's this idea that even very smart people like Brene Brown have that if you don't have shame that you're some kind of psychopath and that I really disagree with and I can talk about that if you if you're interested. Utkarsh Narang (06:05.185) I'm listening to you like I'm putting myself in the shoes of the listener right and you use this word inner narcissist what does it really mean because maybe some of us don't even understand that fully so what does it mean and how does it show up it like how do we recognize one Emma Lyons | Trauma Matrix (06:12.066) Yes. Emma Lyons | Trauma Matrix (06:17.741) So. Well, everyone, particularly if you've been affected by Western culture, you have this we've internalized because the whole system, the whole empire is built on narcissism. So you see these fracties, family patterns of scapegoat, golden child, enabler. You see that everywhere. You see it in corporations. You see it in countries and governments. You see it in international systems. So this is fractal. And we also internalize that narcissism. So even if you're not brought up in a narcissistic family, narcissism that is really built on shame and shame is the driver of narcissism as maybe some of the listeners know because narcissists, their whole identity is built on shame, repressed shame. So this is why someone like Donald Trump gets angry when people make jokes about him because if he was really confident, if I'm really confident and someone makes a joke about me, I'm just going to be like, whatever, you know, and keep doing what I'm doing. But people who have a lot of shame, even if that's repressed shame, and that's what narcissists are, they have all this repressed shame that they're putting down. And when their shame gets triggered, they go on the attack. Like this is how this is how narcissists are. And we internalize that voice. And this is what's commonly called in, know, pop psychology and the psychological world, the inner critic. But what I've noticed is that it ticks absolutely every single box of the narcissist. It's not a critic. It's not a benign thing. as we're again told and gaslit constantly from every angle that this thing is some kind of protector that it's trying to keep you safe that it cares about you that's absolute BS you know the narcissist a narcissistic mother will tell you you can never do that podcast who are you to be a dancer you'll never make it and then they'll tell you I'm doing that for your own good I'm doing it to keep you safe but again it's not about it's not about you they don't care about you they care about their own comfort Emma Lyons | Trauma Matrix (08:20.933) And this this internal inner voice, it does exactly the same thing. It's not a guardian. It's not a protector. It's a narcissist. And let me talk about why that is. It's grandiose. It's self-important. It has all these fantasies on a limited success and power. feels like it's special. You keep having to kind of worship it and do what it says. You you keep performing for and arguing with it. You're giving it narcissistic supply. Right. It's entitled. There's no doubt about that. It lacks empathy. It's envious of others and envious of you. The only thing that it doesn't have is it does not exploit people outside. But what it does exploit is exploit. It exploits you. It tells you don't get up on that stage. Who are you to be successful? You'll never. It shames constantly, just like the narcissist. And then the whole world is telling you to take this thing to therapy, to try to send it love. When really it's just a parasite, just like the narcissist on the outside. Imagine if you have a parasite in your digestive tract. options. You could send it love, could or you could take the medicine to get the thing out, which is what you need to do with this narcissist. But the fact is that shame has been so normalized, we're taught that it's necessary that you need shame, that it's good for you. Even people like I don't know if you're familiar with John Bradshaw, what a great book called The Shame That Binds You. He talks about a thing he talks about how terrible shame is and how it's the root of addictions and all kinds of things. And I was even on a Believe Me, a podcast, shame is drug. of so many mental illnesses and it's kind of you could shows up in everything up to genocide you know shame is a essential part of the substrate there but shame is always toxic and that's not what we're told we're told even through the English language it's especially enforced you have no shame you need you need to have shame in order to be a good person you have no you have no shame you're shameless you're shameful the whole language is set up to enforce this shame concept Utkarsh Narang (10:11.597) Hmm. Emma Lyons | Trauma Matrix (10:20.633) something that you need, something that's good for you, and it's complete BS, it's complete lying, it's keeping everyone stuck in this shame cycle. And the other thing about shame is that without shame, trauma doesn't get passed on. Shame, again, is that substrate for trauma to get passed on. Like if I experience a trauma and I'm still thinking about it 20 years later, that's because I'm carrying the shame. So the shame is kind of the glue that keeps the trauma going and passing down from generation to generation. So without the shame we break free of trauma and this is why it's absolutely useless. It plays no positive function. If you think about other so-called negative emotions, know, even guilt, you've done something bad. Shame says you are bad, you are defective. Anger, it's like somebody's crossed my boundaries. I need to tell them to stop, you know, that's sport and you know, I get scared. Maybe there's a car coming. I need to get out of the way. Shame has no positive function whatsoever. shame is self-attack and self-annihilation and we're taught by society that it's good for you and this is what I have such a problem with. Utkarsh Narang (11:30.744) Hmm. I'm thinking through like what you're sharing. So this whole idea of that you're shameless, this being shameful and this idea of that you need shame, the shame cycle. I love what you said about trauma needs the same cycle to be passed from generation to generation. What I'm thinking is that many a times this shame is, is almost like involuntary or is, is, is so deeply woven in the society. Emma Lyons | Trauma Matrix (11:42.883) Mm-hmm. Emma Lyons | Trauma Matrix (11:48.001) Yes. Emma Lyons | Trauma Matrix (11:58.465) Yeah. Yes. Utkarsh Narang (11:59.106) that we say something to the other person, not even intending to shame them, but we end up doing that. So what are some examples? And you're giving a lot of them in your sharing, but what are some examples that we need to be really careful of when we're saying those things to people? Emma Lyons | Trauma Matrix (12:05.473) Yeah. Emma Lyons | Trauma Matrix (12:14.839) No, well, you can't experience shame if you don't have an inner narcissist. Like if somebody comes up to you and says you have a big nose, you won't experience shame unless you have the voice inside your head that agrees. So you need to the hook. So the way to be to be freed of shame is to release you to is to exercise this inner narcissist. Like I was talking to someone on a podcast a few weeks ago and they were talking about their aunt when they were younger, they were out eating ice cream and they were kind of plump girls. And some grown adult comes up to them. Utkarsh Narang (12:31.053) Hmm. Emma Lyons | Trauma Matrix (12:44.833) and says you shouldn't be eating ice cream it'll make you fat. Now imagine how shaming that could have been. These girls they didn't experience shame they didn't throw away their ice cream they laughed in his face. So this the thing we are we are 100 % responsible for the shame that we experience because we only experience shame if this voice inside resonates otherwise we're just going to keep walking and recognize that it's a projection and shame always is a projection we're going to recognize that and we're not going to let it affect us. Utkarsh Narang (13:21.581) that's really deep. And if someone's just starting to recognize this shame voice within, what do you think is one small step that they can start to take to avoid it or to overcome it? Emma Lyons | Trauma Matrix (13:37.251) Well, the first thing is to start recognizing and this is what I do. What I was what I hope to get through on this on this on your show is for people to recognize that shame is useless, that shame is good for nothing, that shame is not does not help people change their behavior. It's actually counterproductive in changing behavior. Again, it looks impressive in the moment because if I shame someone and teachers do it, parents do it, we all do it. Like you said, it's automatic because it's absolutely everywhere. Utkarsh Narang (13:48.855) Hmm. Emma Lyons | Trauma Matrix (14:07.205) And women are collectively shamed. then certain brown and black people are shamed collectively as well. shame is a tool of empire. the one thing that you can do to start recognizing that is start just going around and look how often you see shame out there. Even in India, like the caste system, the whole thing is built on shame. But We have systems like that in the West. It's everywhere. It's just like different shades of shame. So the first thing you've got to recognize is that shame is absolutely good for nothing and that it's a weapon. It's a weapon of society. It's always a manipulation. And once you really clock that, you can start to retrain your nervous system. And I can talk about that to stop taking it in and to reject those projections of shame when they happen. Utkarsh Narang (14:40.909) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (15:07.063) So step one is shame is useless, that understanding. And that I think that understanding comes from listening to this kind of a conversation. This can come from reading. How does one differentiate? Because it's a big leap we're asking them to take, Emma, that we've grown up with this idea that shame is going to support us in some way. So how do you move them to shame is useless? Emma Lyons | Trauma Matrix (15:15.042) Yeah. Emma Lyons | Trauma Matrix (15:32.759) Well, you have to you can look at it. mean, people most people have been shaming themselves since they were very young and see how far it's got you. know, also, if you look at our prison system, it's built on shame. People go out and commit the same crimes again. There have been many studies done to show that shaming people and telling them the bad doesn't telling them that they're bad does not work to change their behavior. On the contrary, brain that when when we feel shame, we are a part the part of our brain that's connected to empathy shuts down. this is why we're having psychopaths, the problem is they don't have shame. Their problem is that they have no empathy. And guess what? When you experience shame, actually shuts down those parts of the brain that are connected to empathy. So this whole idea that shame is good for you is totally illogical. We need more empathy. We need more compassion. And when we experience shame, we shut down, we make a shell of ourselves, we avoid contact with others. we take things personal and you know you see people in cults and things you know when you criticize them or have any you know constructive criticism they take it personally because they experience shame they experience that as a personal attack and if you look at kind of cults and things or many kind of isms and groups you know people again if you criticize anything about them they actually feel offended they feel shame they feel shamed so they try to attack you and this is what we do with shame because shame is not a digestible emotion. It's not an emotion that you can process in the same way that you can process anger and get to grief. Shame isn't like that. Shame is you feel shame and then you keep feeling it. There's another layer of shame. It's the bottomless pit of shame. And then eventually you get to rock bottom and you don't want to be here, which is where shame tells you. Shame is self-eraser. Shame tells you you're useless. You'd be better off if you weren't here. And that's the reason why people end up on-living themselves. themselves, shame is essential to that process. No matter how terrible things get in your life, shame must be there for you to actually feel so hopeless. And shame isn't even that belief that I'm bad. It's so much deeper than that. Shame is... Emma Lyons | Trauma Matrix (17:48.309) It's a whole cocktail of a bunch of different emotions, hopelessness, helplessness, anger turned inwards, know, self-attack, depression. It's like a bunch of self-revulsion of the self, disgust of the self. You know, it's all of those emotional things. And then the belief that I'm bad or faulty or that I'm stupid or ugly or whatever it is, that comes downstream from the feeling. So shame is better described as that feeling, that sensation. And it's something that hijacks your body. like no other emotion. The only thing that you could possibly compare it to is fear. yeah, but mean, shame is much more visceral and deeper. really hijacks your body. takes you over. It makes you feel go red. You your body actually contracts. You physically look different. You want to like hide yourself because what it does, puts you into survival mode. So explain to me again how being in survival mode is helpful. It's not. It puts you on the attack. puts you you go into your little shell. Utkarsh Narang (18:29.677) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (18:46.317) you Emma Lyons | Trauma Matrix (18:48.313) You do not change because you feel attacked and you feel like I'm just going to hide in my little shell or attack that person. no shame is not something that you can process. Shame. either you either you either internalize it and attack yourself and, you know, commit suicide, self destruct or, you know, drink yourself to death or you find another victim, which is what lots of collectives do. Do you see that with individuals who are the golden child, for example? Utkarsh Narang (19:12.941) you Emma Lyons | Trauma Matrix (19:18.063) go on are scapegoats. The scapegoats go on to find another scapegoat to project all their shame on. And then what they do unconsciously a lot of the time is they try to kill that person or hurt that person as a way to offset the shame that they're feeling. And you can see that play out in bigger settings. You know, if you look at certain countries now that used to be scapegoats, certain collectives now, now, you know, committing genocide and things like that, they have a new group of people because they were carrying all this shame and it would happened with the Germans as well. The Germans were shamed at the end of World War Two, they were carrying all this shame. So we need to find another recipient for the shame so that we don't feel like it's our fault and we don't have to carry it. we projected on someone else and that happens in an individual level and on a collective level exactly the same. That's why shame is so fractal and insidious and shame is never guilt. That's useful. Guilt says I've done something wrong. But shame says, am bad. That's self annihilation. How can that ever be good? And yet this is what we're told that shame is good for you. And it's a complete and this is telling you that that that hurting yourself and beating up on yourself is somehow good for you. And I mean, a lot of this comes from the Catholic Church, particularly, which has this really deep and I mean, other parts of the world pre Christian, they didn't have this individualized I called type of type of shame. Utkarsh Narang (20:23.82) Mm. Utkarsh Narang (20:36.557) Hmm. Emma Lyons | Trauma Matrix (20:47.813) Can you hear me? Yeah, it's just you just froze for a second. So this in the West, we have this individualized kind of shame, this shame that's kind of unique. was kind of spread through Christianity. And that's the belief that there's something wrong with me as an individual comes from the is really spread through Christianity. This idea that you're a sinner and you have to forgive. mean, just imagine that that's a huge double bind that you can never, ever get get out of. But if we we look at pre-Christian societies, it was a different type of shame and also in the East, in the Far East and probably in India as well, although you have some level of identity shame as well. It's kind of more collectivist type of shame. It's more like the group kind of shame. If you do something that's considered, brings shame on the rest of the tribe, then you're shamed for that. that was the one that was prevalent really in places like Ireland. in places like Japan and China still primarily that kind of collective type of shame. But when the Christian Christianity kind of spread this idea, which in my opinion is even more insidious because it's not something that you do. It's something that you are. You are a sinner. So this this idea of attacking the self for no reason or for the reason that you're just born a sinner, you know, it's it's been popular popularized and it's the it's the substrate. of many, many cultures, particularly in the West. And any culture that's kind of been affected by Christianity will have that. And by the way, this isn't what Jesus taught. Jesus did not shame people. This came later. Why? Because shame is very useful when you want to keep people in line, keep people small, keep them in their little box, and keep them from getting too big or asking for too much. And that's what shame is good for. That's the only thing shame is good for. Utkarsh Narang (22:45.655) Hmm. Emma Lyons | Trauma Matrix (22:47.493) keeping people small, keeping people down. And it's good for the people doing the manipulation, not the people being manipulated. So I hope that clarifies shame is toxic 100 % of the time. Utkarsh Narang (23:02.775) Hmm. So I'm with you now. I'm with you. I've been listening to you and I understand that shame is toxic. I want to let go of shame. Here, here's where I am. I'm someone who's 34 years old, a woman who's in a marriage for the last few years, but not respected, not, not feeling that I'm fully there with my partner. I'm doing some work where I feel challenged every day with my managers. And you've identified, you've worked with me and you've found that shame is what's stopping me. Shame is what's making me play small. Where do I begin? Emma Lyons | Trauma Matrix (23:39.245) Yeah. Yep. It's always shame, imposter syndrome, self-sabotage, procrastination. All these things are just especially imposter syndrome. People much prefer to say imposter syndrome than to say they're carrying shame. But that's what imposter syndrome is. Shame is the root. And so many people, they're trying to deal with symptoms without dealing with the root of the problem. And the other thing that I want to say here is that most people who talk about shame and helping people with shame, they teach them. And this includes people like Brene Brown. they teach them how to cope with their shame rather than to kick it out. don't get out of the everyone is talking from inside the shame cage. That where shame is normal, where shame is natural, shame is part of what it is to be human rather than recognizing shame for what it is. It's a construct. It's a construct of control. And that's all it is. So first, you've got to recognize that I do have an acronym. It's called break. And the first one is be break the trance. This is really recognized that when shame comes it's not your voice it's like a spell it's a trance that we're collectively under so when you catch it you interrupt it just name it recognize that it's a trance and that automatically disrupts the loop so whatever that thing says you're stupid or you're ugly or whatever BS it comes up with then you got to go R and this is contrary to what many therapists tell you or what you're taught to do this is refuse to engage right so you do not engage with the narcissist If there's a narcissist out there, you have someone that you've met who's a narcissist, the wrong thing to do is to try to fight with them. You don't defend. You don't engage. You don't explain. You don't personalize. Just drop the rope and say, not today. You don't owe this any per not today, bitch. Not today, Satan. You don't owe this thing any courtesy. And this is my other problem with like the therapy world that has taken this thing and this voice in your head and said that it's part of you, you know, you have to be polite to it. It's a wounded child. Emma Lyons | Trauma Matrix (25:42.073) So is the narcissist. The narcissist has been wounded as well. You could send all the love you want to that. That narcissist is not changing. You just need to get it out of your life. And it's the same with the narcissist that we internalize as a so-called inner critic. Stop being polite to it. Stop trying to take it to therapy. It does not work. Dr. Ramani talks about deep. that works for the narcissist that you've internalized as well. And like I say, when you exercise this shame voice from yourself, the more you do that, the more you exercise this thing, the more unshameable you become, the more on nobody can manipulate you. People need you to be shameable in order to manipulate you. Right. That's it. Otherwise they can't. You're going to see their game. You're going to be able to thank you very much like the Buddha did. Thank you. But no, thank you. Take it back. You have to take it. You have to have the agreement in order to get it. So don't drop the rope and just not today. Then you go on E, which is exposed the lie. Really call out the shame based programming. Utkarsh Narang (26:32.173) Hmm. Emma Lyons | Trauma Matrix (26:41.973) recognize that it's control, that it's not your story. So whatever it's saying, you've got like, we've got fat thighs or whatever, compared to what you know, this is this is all relative. It's a lie. It's controlling you. That voice is trying to control you. You so just expose that it's always a lie. And then you've got to anchor your truth in your body. That's a come back to your body, because like I said, shame takes you out of your body like nothing else. Nothing compares, not even fear. And so Utkarsh Narang (26:58.956) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (27:06.285) Hmm. Emma Lyons | Trauma Matrix (27:11.823) come back to your body, feel your breath, plant your feet, say your name and the year and really start to remind your nervous system that you're safe, that you're sovereign and that you are here right now. And then K is kick it out. And that means physically, just like animals, know, this is the animals don't have shame. They they have a they have a fight with something or nearly die or whatever. And they come and have a good shake. So you physically shake off that shame, stomp it off, you know, do whatever you can to Utkarsh Narang (27:23.915) and then. Emma Lyons | Trauma Matrix (27:41.763) move it out of your body and say it out loud this is not mine and then you do not take the shame in it's that simple it's not simple but people have been practicing shame for 40 50 60 years and their ancestors have been practicing shame for thousands of years so this is really it's it's really people have people have taken it in in a very very deep way and you know it's simple but it's not always easy because shame is our favorite drug we Utkarsh Narang (27:56.034) Mm. Emma Lyons | Trauma Matrix (28:11.833) are shooting up on shame as a society everywhere. Everywhere. We're addicted to shame and that's all we've got to control people in order to feel safe. We shame people. And that's always a projecting of the shame that I feel. Like if I see a lot of women shame other women, you know, because when we we shame someone, we got feel, oh, I'm so I'm so powerful. You know, it's it's a narcissistic tool. When you shame someone, you're like, oh, my God, I'm so powerful. Look at me. So it gives you some relief from your shame. But it's a it's a power trip. And it's it's really sick and twisted. Utkarsh Narang (28:36.46) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (28:46.56) Yeah. Emma Lyons | Trauma Matrix (28:47.653) We're all doing it because we've been told that it's good for you that you have to shame yourself in order to get better. You have to shame others to keep them in line. I was talking to someone with somebody messaged me on sub stack and they were they were quite angry about what I'm saying about shame because they were like, we need to we need to shame pedophiles. And I was like, well, you know, I don't think Epstein got the memo there. They've been shaming pedophiles for generations and hasn't stopped them as far as I know. So shame does not work. In fact, there's a lot of evidence. to show that in a lot of cases, people who sexually abuse children were also victims. They're carrying a lot of that shame and, again, looking for something to project it on, to reenact it, to feel a little bit better. That's not to justify it or make it OK, but this is what's happening. This is how it gets passed down. So shame is the toxin that we need to remove. We have got to stop shooting up on shame. Utkarsh Narang (29:37.469) Mm. Utkarsh Narang (29:43.734) Yeah. Yeah. So, so it's two ways, right? I'll come back to the addiction around shame because I've made a note of that. Let's, let's just review the framework once, because I think it's powerful because it starts with breaking the trance. That's B. It is a trap. Call it out. That's how you start. Then refuse to engage with it, which is counter to what, what psychotherapy tells, right? They say that engage with the voice or try to talk to the voice, but you're saying refuse to engage with that voice. Emma Lyons | Trauma Matrix (29:58.657) Yeah. Yep. Emma Lyons | Trauma Matrix (30:12.428) No. Utkarsh Narang (30:12.705) You just let it go. You don't, you don't have to engage with it. Then expose the lie, call it out. It's a lie because I think what you said was it was really powerful. What you said, because compared to what, like I am white compared to what I'm brown compared to what I'm fat compared to what I'm thin compared to what there, there's no comparison here. I am enough. And that's what we're talking about. A is to anchor yourself, come back to your body, take a deep breath. K is to kick it out. Emma Lyons | Trauma Matrix (30:16.095) Yeah, because just like, yeah. Utkarsh Narang (30:42.465) And I love that whole framework. But here's the challenge. So you spoke about that the society is addicted with shame. But that's about giving shame, right? For the one who's receiving the shame, what makes them so incapable of moving out and moving away from this shame? Emma Lyons | Trauma Matrix (30:50.658) Yeah. Emma Lyons | Trauma Matrix (31:03.585) It's the same. You will only shame people as much as you shame yourself. For most people. Not psychopaths or narcissists, you know. But for most of us, you will only shame people when you... You won't speak more harshly to others than you do that voice to yourself in your head. So you won't call someone stupid or ugly, you know. But you'll say it to yourself, probably. So you've got to stop that inner narcissist from shaming you. And the way to do that is to stop giving it narcissistic supplies. Stop performing it. Stop trying to heal it. It's not a wounded child. You cannot heal a narcissist. You need to walk away. Utkarsh Narang (31:51.223) you stop that inner narcissist and that's where this cycle breaks, this cycle of shame breaks. Emma Lyons | Trauma Matrix (31:56.993) Yes, you don't need to change what anyone else is saying. They can say whatever they want. But like those girls with the ice cream, you'll be like, somebody says you're ugly. OK, that's the you know, if I come up to you and say you have disgusting pink hair, you're going to just think I'm crazy woman because you don't have pink hair. know, so somebody says you're stupid or you're ugly. OK, that's clearly their projection because my hair is not pink. You know, so the sky. Utkarsh Narang (32:24.843) Yeah. Emma Lyons | Trauma Matrix (32:26.977) is not blue, this guy is not red, you know. This is people trying to feel a little bit better by projecting their horrible shame at you. And this is what we're all doing collectively. People do it with their kids, teachers do it with their students, everyone. Look at social media. It's shaming. Shaming is proper mainstream in social media. Utkarsh Narang (32:33.058) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (32:50.753) Yeah. What does one gain? And I'm calling it from the perspective of say someone's gone through these five steps, they've been able to kick out shame. What does that freedom look like? Emma Lyons | Trauma Matrix (33:04.15) Well, When you when you have shame in your system, you cannot be authentic. So shame is the opposite of authenticity. So you cannot be authentic if you're carrying shame because shame says you're not good enough. this like nobody wants to use the word like shame is a dirty word. Nobody wants to talk about. They'll talk about worthiness. They'll talk about guilt. They'll talk about anger. But shame is like a four letter word. People are ashamed. There's so much shame around shame and talking about shame. And of course, shame thrives in the dark. Utkarsh Narang (33:34.733) Hmm. Emma Lyons | Trauma Matrix (33:34.853) So nobody, nobody wants to talk about shame and it thrives, it expands, it grows and it's pushed from every single angle. So yeah, you've got to, you've got to recognize it for what it is. It's always a tool of domination. You've got to stop doing it to yourself, kick out that inner narcissist and you become unshamable. And that's the only way to freedom. It's like you were living inside this shame cage and everyone is telling us, including, you know, people who teach you how to be more comfortable with shame. and how to accept your shame. that's pretty much all nearly all the most therapists. I mean, I spoke to someone and his therapist said, it's good that you experience shame because you've done so many bad things to yourself and other people in your life. So this is mainstream. Shame is good for you. is what people are saying. Shame is good for you. Shame is a moral compass. Shame makes you be a good boy. Shame makes if and then, you know, people think if I've done bad things and I feel shame, that means that I'm still a good person. Utkarsh Narang (34:20.365) Wow. Utkarsh Narang (34:26.317) Mm. Emma Lyons | Trauma Matrix (34:34.693) I mean, it's just it's so twisted. So shame is kind of like you get out of free get it get out of jail free card. I kill this guy, but I feel shame about it there. Therefore, I'm still a good person. You know, hello. No, you need to change your behavior and shame does not help change behavior. It's counter. It works in the opposite direction. It gives people stuck where they are. We need humility. We need self-awareness and shame shuts down all those things. So shame is just Utkarsh Narang (34:39.117) Mm. Utkarsh Narang (34:43.116) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (34:59.041) Hmm. Emma Lyons | Trauma Matrix (35:04.613) bad all around. It's the poison. It's the one poison of all of all our societies. Without shame, we would all be so much better off and we wouldn't have things like genocide because I believe shame is an essential substrate for genocide. You need to have like all of this shame and people looking for someone else to project it on. And, you know, it's just it's just playing out everywhere. You can even look at the story of the Garden of Eden as the allegory of shame. You know, it's very it's very straight. Utkarsh Narang (35:11.554) Mm-mm. Utkarsh Narang (35:29.292) Yeah. Emma Lyons | Trauma Matrix (35:34.563) forward, know, shame is the fall. And if I spoke to someone who said like, shame is like Satan, yes, shame is Satan, shame is separation. So if we want to be if we want to be free, if we want to find out who you are, you need to release that shame, you need to let go of that shame. And that takes that's a conscious choice. Because it doesn't happen unless you make that conscious choice. Utkarsh Narang (35:42.157) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (35:58.018) Yeah. Yeah. It's, uh, it's, it's so, it sounds, I don't know, like, you know, part of me feels like it sounds really simple that shame is toxic. And so you've got to let it go. And then part of me also is saying that, but shame is so complex and so interwoven in how we are in our DNA. That's going to be really hard for people to go through that. But I can, I can promise that I think what you and I have just spoken about Emma. If people are able to shift this, think they will see changes in their whole existence. And I was reading some of your work and I read somewhere that you said, visibility isn't a mindset issue. It's a trauma response. Can you unpack that for us? Emma Lyons | Trauma Matrix (36:34.295) Yeah. Emma Lyons | Trauma Matrix (36:43.947) Yeah, so when people are afraid of being visible and being seen, that's shame again. know, so visibility blocks its shame because shame says you need to hide. You can't be seen for who you are. So so many things, you know, depression, suicidal ideation. Shame is the main driver. Imposter syndrome. These are just examples, but they're all driven by shame. If shame wasn't there, you would be no imposter syndrome. You would not because shame says you're not good enough. You'll never be good enough. You're not worthy. You're stupid. You're ugly. Blah, blah, blah, blah. Utkarsh Narang (36:49.837) you Emma Lyons | Trauma Matrix (37:13.861) You know, and it's that feeling that takes over your nervous system. And you're right, it is is it is almost interwoven in our DNA. It's not in our DNA, but it's been with us for generations and eons. And we're we continue to be gaslit with this idea that you need shame in order to be good boy or a good girl or a good human. You know, when even people like Brene Brown are saying that if you don't experience shame, that makes you a psychopath. Of course, this tells you how deep the matrix goes. Utkarsh Narang (37:18.829) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (37:25.581) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (37:33.677) Yeah. Emma Lyons | Trauma Matrix (37:43.791) We're told everywhere that shame is good for you. People are fighting to keep shame. Like that woman who thought that shame was good for paedophiles. mean, people will fight you for that. People will fight you to say that shame is good. And it's like just like fighting for your limitations. People will fight to keep their shame. But I work with people who are ready to let shame go. And that's not everyone. That's not everyone. Some people are they're so habituated with it. They're not ready to open the door and get out of the cage. Utkarsh Narang (37:57.986) Yeah. Yeah. Emma Lyons | Trauma Matrix (38:13.701) they'd prefer to keep you know decorating it and making the cage look a bit nicer and that's okay but that's very very limited when you look at the big picture Utkarsh Narang (38:19.789) Yeah. And what I would recommend, yeah. Correct. Yeah. And I think for everyone who's right now in that skeptical seat, they got to shift this for like maybe a week of their life and see the actual impact that can have that can have for them. And this break model, I think it's a really simple and effective way to put shame out of one's life and put it out forever. You know, as we're speaking about this idea and thank you for all the sharing. I really appreciate it, Emma. The final question that I want to kind of close with and ask you is that if we now go into the future, a few decades from now, to you being 80 years old, 80, and if that 80 year old Emma were to come to you right now and give you one piece of advice, what would that Emma say to you? Emma Lyons | Trauma Matrix (39:16.771) I mean, it's your time. know, there's nothing to be ashamed of. There's absolutely nothing to be ashamed of. you know, reclaim your shameless. That's the name of my program. You know, now is the time to do that. It's the only time you have and you're the only one who can make that decision. So it's a journey. But this is how you find out who you really are. When you're carrying shame, you don't know who you are. And that most that's why most people don't have a clue who they are, shame has been been so fused with their identity. keep going, the world really needs to hear this message and nobody else is saying it apart from me that I know of. Utkarsh Narang (39:57.634) Yeah. Yeah. How it started with the eight year old self who said, did not believe in herself, who was almost suicidal, who carried this amazing amount of shame to how the trajectory goes to the eight year old Emma who says, this is your time. You got this. Have no shame. And what I'm going to kind of reiterate to, to the listeners is that shame is just toxic. Shame has been normalized enough and forever in our society. but it's time to let it go. It's the inner narcissist that we keep feeding when the cycle of shame and narcissism continues within us. And what I loved what you said about was that the shame cycle is what transfers the trauma from one generation to the other. And it's it's a bottomless pit of shame that we go through. So we got to let it go and break is such a good model, such an easy model to put into practice and let go of the shame. Emma Lyons | Trauma Matrix (40:29.143) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (40:54.943) In a society that's addicted with shame in a society that's, that's feeling that shame is a form of motivation. The change needs to start and the change starts with all of us to whoever who's been listening to us for the last 44 odd minutes and has. Yeah. Has, has contributed to this conversation. I think what's important is for you to go back and talk to your partners, talk to your friends, talk to your children, talk to your manager and put a stop to shame right now. Emma Lyons | Trauma Matrix (41:02.753) Yeah. Emma Lyons | Trauma Matrix (41:06.934) Exactly. Emma Lyons | Trauma Matrix (41:27.767) And the way to do that is to stop shaming yourself first, because you can't lecture anyone about stopping shame if the voice inside your head. So don't lecture other people. Become unshamable yourself and model that for other people. The people don't have models for that. So don't bother with the lessons. Just free yourself of shame and be that light for other people. That's all you have to do. Utkarsh Narang (41:32.439) I love that. Utkarsh Narang (41:53.995) Yeah, become unshamable, become unshamable. That's so beautiful. To everyone who's invested their time in this conversation. Emma Lyons | Trauma Matrix (41:57.217) Yeah, reclaim your shameless, you know, because. Emma Lyons | Trauma Matrix (42:08.547) Oh, I lost you there for a second. What were you saying? Utkarsh Narang (42:08.673) Yeah, so to everyone who's invested their time in this podcast, that's okay. Share it with someone who you think might value this conversation and who might be ready to let go of this shame. And if you're on YouTube, subscribe, put a comment in the comment box so that we can know that you're here. We'd love to hear from you. Emma, thank you for your time today. I truly appreciate the conversation. And this is Emma Utkarsh signing off. Emma Lyons | Trauma Matrix (42:35.053) Can I say, if people are interested in getting in touch with me, I have a free gift for people. So I have a free guide that's called Five Signs. OK. Utkarsh Narang (42:42.303) So we'll put all the. Utkarsh Narang (42:47.447) Sorry, the internet today is not serving as well. If anyone wants to get in touch with Emma, we have put all the show, if anyone wants to get in touch with Emma, we have put all the links that you can reach out to her in the show notes below. Feel free to reach out to her and connect with her and you would love the conversation that'll emerge.