Utkarsh Narang (00:00.9) Welcome to another episode of the IgnitedNeurons Podcast. We have had about 22 episodes till now, and we have spoken about things that are very close to my heart and to the heart of the guests. Today, my hypothesis is that Ella and I are going to speak about the inner edge. We're going to speak about learning because she's invested her life in learning and development. And we're also going to hopefully speak about spirituality. And I don't know what will emerge because The IgnitedNeurons podcast is a completely unscripted conversation. Welcome, Ella. Looking forward to this conversation with you today. Ella (00:34.542) Lovely, thank you for having me. I really appreciate how you frame this conversation because even as a guest on one hand, I feel so damn excited to have this conversation with you because in the business world, it feels like we don't talk, we don't spend lots of time talking about spirituality and how that relates to the individual leadership development. But we are going to spend some to talk about even though I don't know what are we going to talk about. I'm so looking forward to that. Thank you for having me. Utkarsh Narang (01:04.644) Absolutely. And absolutely it's a pleasure. And you know what I say, Ella is that through this conversation, we'll spend say between 30 to 60 minutes and our listeners who decide to hang on with us through the whole conversation, the people who enter the conversation, that is you and me and the listeners, we will not be the same people who exit the conversation because things would have evolved by then. Ella (01:26.304) I love that. I really love that because I'm a firm believer, individual human being, we are shaped by each other. Every single encounter, every single interaction, every single conversation that we have, we plan a little bit sits here and there and we shape because of the interaction that we have. Utkarsh Narang (01:49.254) So powerful. Love it. Love it. There's resonance already. But you know, the first question that we used to deep dive into the guest and their life, because I don't do like the formal introductions, because to me, the formal introductions are only what we see on the surface. So that question for you, is if you go back to that eight-year-old self, that eight-year-old young girl growing up wherever she was, and you'll tell us more about that, if that girl were to come and meet you right now, Ella (02:18.83) Mmm. Utkarsh Narang (02:19.3) What kind of a conversation do you think will emerge between you and her? Ella (02:23.758) Oh my god, this is a very good question. Every single time, I know you're going to ask me this, but every single time when I hear this question, I feel my heart speed up. Okay, there are a few things I would love to have the opportunity to share with my eight years old self. First of all, stay curious. So stay curious, ask questions, even no one around you understands you sometimes, that's okay. But continue to explore and stay curious, being curious. And the second, I would say, be playful. because you don't have to be so serious to resolve all the problems you have in your mind. So treat the process of resolving those problems as a playground. So you have some fun when you're doing that and you enjoy the process of doing that. So be curious, be playful. And the last thing I would say, be brave because the journey ahead of you is not going to be a straight line. it's going to be an adventure and you're probably going to move ahead, move backwards, move left side, right side, no matter what, it's an adventure. you're going to learn so much on this journey. So don't need to set a specific goals on every single term, but trust your heart. and have more trust in your heart and particularly when you feel frightened and scary, trust your heart because your heart can lead you to the places and the people that you're to meet and meant to encounter and meant to experience. Utkarsh Narang (04:16.956) Wow, five minutes into the conversation and you've given us such a lot of wisdom because what you're saying are some of the truths, right? That one needs to stay curious, one needs to stay playful and stay brave and trust your heart. What happens along the journey? And maybe you could share some of your experiences as well because my assumption is if I talk to my eight-year-old self, I will say all of these things, but somewhere at 18 or 24 or 27 and now I'm 40. We stop being playful. We stop being curious. We start to mold ourselves according to what sometimes the society expects us to do. What changes through this journey, according to you? Ella (04:51.127) Yeah. Ella (04:57.441) Mm. Okay, I would say these days when I look back, I would say I'm very blessed and a lucky person. did everything my heart desire to do. But back then, doing everything your heart desire to do is not such a pleasant process. For example, I was very deep thinker. I was told by my mom when I was a little, I was very reserved and quiet. And I keep asking the question like, why I was born? What's the purpose. Why I was born? Because I guess I was born as a very sensitive kid. So every day for me, it's just like an emotional roller coaster. It's exhausting. So when I was very young, I was questioning, am I born by accident? If I was born by accident, then I have to experience such emotional high and low on daily basis. What's the point? So I keep asking that question. And the second thing is in my younger days, I think I also inherited some qualities from my parents. For example, my father has a very strong sense of justice. So in school time, I always dreamed of my future vocation Utkarsh Narang (06:02.972) Hmm. Ella (06:20.046) is law. want to practice law, bring the justice. I remember in high school when my classmates and I were talking about what are we going to do in the future, I always have two things out of blue come to me. I said this is my goal. I need to go to university and I study law. And after that, I need to have a legal firm with all the female lawyers and speak up for the women who cannot speak up for them. This is the first dream and the second dream. I need to have a school. Utkarsh Narang (06:42.459) Wow. Ella (06:50.01) to build up a school we don't just teaching usual academic stuff but we teaching virtues so I still remember that conversation because it happens in my when I was a 17 or 16 years old and it's stay with me forever Utkarsh Narang (07:02.748) Hmm. Ella (07:05.582) But I did went to university study law. I did a passed the by examination. I did the land a job in the legal industry. Then I suddenly experience within six months, I experienced the collapse of my believing system. So that time is my darkest time. I'm this day. So when I look back, I said, I'm very blessed and very lucky because my darkest moment came when I was 22, 23 years old. So because you're so young and you can still starting from scratch. Utkarsh Narang (07:35.356) Hmm. Ella (07:42.516) I also told people my midlife crisis comes when I was 22 because that's the moment you start questioning and wondering what could be my next goal, next vocation that I can choose, that I can throw myself into it wholeheartedly. So I guess this is a part of my nature. I can never do things half-heartedly. I have to do things wholeheartedly. Like my mind and body and soul, they need to be aligned, then I can really see myself aligned. Utkarsh Narang (08:00.988) you you Utkarsh Narang (08:10.225) Hmm. Ella (08:12.4) in the process of doing the work I'm doing. So I can never separate my daytime, nighttime, free time, personal time in my younger days. This is all mixed together. So I guess during that process, there's many times when you, for example, when I chose to leave the legal industry, resign from my legal job, of course no one around me say yes to it. They feel like you're crazy. Such a wonderful job. Everyone fight to get that job. Utkarsh Narang (08:18.972) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (08:23.366) Hmm. Ella (08:42.39) don't really appreciate that. So you're naive and you have no idea what the choice you made for yourself. So those are the moments I keep telling myself even there's no clear path that you can see in front of you. Have the courage to continue to follow your heart to work. Go with your feelings. Work, work. Utkarsh Narang (08:44.252) Hmm. Hmm. Ella (09:07.032) forward, then sometimes paths will unfold in front of you. And only in the last few years, I got interested in hiking and this validates my thinking back then because when you go hiking in a bushland, when you look from the distance, Utkarsh Narang (09:12.06) you Utkarsh Narang (09:20.23) Mm. Mm-hmm. Utkarsh Narang (09:25.404) Hmm. Ella (09:25.954) Sometimes you won't be able to see the path because there's a lot of brushes, lots of trees, very high grasses over there. You won't be able to see it. The only moment you can see it is when you're getting closer enough, then you will say, there's a path underneath. So there's always a path. So now when I look back to my eight years old, very reserved, very... Utkarsh Narang (09:38.715) Yeah. Yeah. Ella (09:50.286) easily sense lots of emotions in my environment and tend to keep every big questions to myself because when you ask no one get you, when no one get you, it sounds like a rejection to you. So now I'm just saying, don't worry. No one understand you now. There's one person, two people in the future going to understand you. Don't worry. But never stop searching this long thing. Be curious, be playful, but never stop searching. Utkarsh Narang (09:54.928) Mm-hmm. Utkarsh Narang (10:12.528) Yeah. Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (10:20.464) Let's break this down because what you spoke about is again, you spoke about this 22, 23 year old girl who's going through the darkest moment you're calling it, your midlife crisis. And then what you spoke about is that there's this moment in your life through your experiences, through your adventures, through your search, through your efforts, and then how the environment supported you, I'm pretty sure, that you're able to reach a place where the mind, the body, and the soul is aligned. Ella (10:21.358) Thank Utkarsh Narang (10:49.284) and you're feeling the sense of being alive. Love how you compare this to hiking because when you go hiking, then you from a distance, yes, don't see the path. You don't know if there's a next step. You don't know where you're headed. But when when you reach there, the path appears and it's right there. But here's here's let's let's break it down slowly because maybe maybe some of our listeners are right now. And this could happen at any age, right? And we don't have to say that it has to happen at the 22 or 23. I've experienced it at a later stage in life and I've experienced this twice over the last 15 years, I would say. And it continues, right? So if we go back to those darkest moments and if you feel, if you try and help our listeners understand how do they identify? Because in retrospect, you know, you can connect the dots backwards and we can say that, that time was a really dark time. But if someone's going through it right now, what might they be feeling, sensing, doing that'll make them feel like Ella (11:22.19) Yes. Utkarsh Narang (11:46.886) This is my darkest moment. Ella (11:48.854) Okay, first of all for me, it's a frustration. Frustration in certain ways. For example, aimless. This is my biggest frustration back then. It feels like I'm afraid that I can achieve a goal. So back then during those two or three years, I set up lots of goals, like tangible goals for myself. pass examination, get a new job. Utkarsh Narang (11:58.652) Mmm. Ella (12:17.93) get a title, make how much money, I chose those goals. But when I achieved a goal, at the same time, when I achieved a goal, rather than feel proud of myself and happy about it, I also have this very strong feeling, damn, I need to choose another goal. Because without a goal, I feel like my energy, my time, my resources are all scattered. Utkarsh Narang (12:44.284) Hmm. Ella (12:44.334) I cannot handle being idle. So I can be idle for two days. After that, I start to feel what the purpose, what's the aim of here. So I need something to help me to center my energy, my attention so I can make effort. This is a very Asian kind of education in my system, in my blood. So frustration comes from aimless because I don't know which next goal will make me feel Utkarsh Narang (12:47.356) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (12:54.012) Hmm. Ella (13:14.404) I want to give myself 100 % to achieve that. So during those few years, the second of all is searching is so hard. Search, share, you find. I heard this a lot from all kinds of spiritual scripts. But a search, share you find doesn't mean you're going to find it immediately. Sometimes take a long time. So these days when I look back, I said, be prepared for 10 years to find it because you can never, it's not an easy process. That's why so many people give up. But I think the best thing happened to me is I get into Because I was need to search, I need to search things to make myself happy, make myself feel I would love to invest. So I also search all kinds of religions, spiritual educations. And there's one line I remember, I heard from somebody or read from somewhere. I don't even remember. Utkarsh Narang (14:12.624) Mm. Ella (14:20.16) I think this is a book written by a person who did hypnosis. He's from Harvard. He's a psychiatrist. He did hypnosis on his patients and talking about past life. That's when I was 23. In China, we don't publish this kind of a book. This book is from Taiwan from one of my colleagues back then. It's all written in traditional Chinese. I only remember one thing in this book. since then, since I read that, is it's come from one of the stories with his patients. And this pretty much goes as every soul come to this planet because the, they chose to meet with a certain person and will have a different kind of experiences. It's because there's a lesson for this soul sign up to learn and to pass. Utkarsh Narang (14:57.276) Hmm. Ella (15:15.406) So you can imagine as a student, I'm a good student in school. I don't want to fail my class. I just don't want to pass my class. So at that time I made two decisions. One, every challenge, difficulty, frustration, despair, disappointment, whatever kind of negative emotional experience I will have in the future. I will treat that as my learning class. I will figure out. If this situation happens again next time, I won't be bothered. So I need to figure out how to get out of it. Either I can prevent or if I cannot prevent, if it does happen, I already learned how to deal with that. So even if happens again, it won't bother me. So this is my first lesson from that book. And the second lesson from that book, because he's talking about all this soul's journey in the whole life, so somehow I get this conclusion. Only the best thing will happen on you. Only. And sometimes, if the situation in our eyes, we feel damn it's bad. And purely because we're not wise enough to see the good side of that. I literally remember back then, I put the things that bothers me in my mind. I imagine there's a table. So I put that thing on the table. Utkarsh Narang (16:33.244) you Ella (16:45.158) I tried literally try to look at it from the different angles on that table, trying to figure out what the hell is the good side of this thing happening to me. So I learned sometime it took me two weeks to figure out. So I will have lots of aha moments during that time. And there's one thing when I reflect, I thought it took me Utkarsh Narang (16:50.096) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Utkarsh Narang (17:01.308) Mmm. Ella (17:12.766) seven years to see why it is a good thing for me. For example, resigning from the legal job and literally my parents, my family, my parents stopped talking to me for two years because it's a huge stretch for them. And because of that, I lost my legal license, lawyer license. Utkarsh Narang (17:27.856) Wow. Utkarsh Narang (17:37.329) Right. Ella (17:37.9) So I have to come to overseas to study trying to figure out what is my future because in my parents eyes, I threw away my future. So it's until after seven years, after seven years when I was facilitated a workshop at work talking about intrinsic motivation. Only in that moment, I suddenly realized, damn, this is probably those two years worth of time make me feel so despair that I have to change my career and it drives me to do so much study about myself, about why I do things the way I do things, why organizations do things the thing they do. So all this leading up to today that I can be a consultant, organizational development, learning development, no longer fighting for black and white Utkarsh Narang (18:23.708) Mm. Ella (18:29.04) but fighting for what could be the best condition an organization can create to allow individuals to tap into their highest potential. So that's the moment I realized, damn, that's a really good thing. But back then, Utkarsh Narang (18:38.46) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (18:42.364) Hmm. Ella (18:44.244) I remember the days when I came overseas and all the international students we sit down together socializing and the people talking about their past and the future. I was the quiet one because I was healing. I don't want to talk about it. I just used to be a lawyer. That's it. Utkarsh Narang (18:54.906) Yeah. Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (19:00.656) Yeah, Beautiful. So let me, I try and paraphrase everything for the listeners so that they can synthesize what we're getting because what you're sharing is enriching. The first thing you shared about was that it's the frustration. It's that sense of feeling aimless. Where the hell is my life going? And that question puts you then on a trajectory of searching. And through that searching, through trial and error, through going through multiple resources, talking to different people, Ella (19:05.742) Thanks Utkarsh Narang (19:30.382) Someone appeared in your life that tried you to that book that allowed you to figure out that everything that's coming your way can be looked at two ways. One is that it could be a learning class for you. So how do you get better? And then the second, which was so powerful, is that if you're a soul that's been on this planet, then only the best thing will happen to you. it, it, what you're sharing takes me back to my childhood. And I remember my grandma back growing home, growing, growing up back home in India. Ella (19:42.754) Yes. Utkarsh Narang (19:58.564) She used to share this story where she would say that there was this small little kingdom where there was a king who was atrocious and doing all the wrong things to the people. And what happened once was that in that village, a person's child, who was about 15, 16 years old, got his hand bitten by something, I think maybe an alligator or something like that. And a couple of fingers were chopped off. And the whole village came to that person saying, you're so unlucky. Your your son got bit by an alligator and now he's lost his fingers. He cannot move his hand properly and this and that. And the person said there is something that's right for him that has happened through this experience. So I'm not worried. And they're like, how can you say that your your son is in pain? He's lost fingers and he again says there's something right there. And I don't want to share about that. A few days later, a war gets declared and the king invites everyone in the in the village. who's above 14 years age to come and join the army. And they know that they were going to lose that battle and everyone was going to die. And that 14 year old kid, 15 year old kid was not picked up because he lost his fingers. And so the old man had his son there because his fingers were bit by an alligator. And it tells us that we were put on this planet right now. Again, coming back to that point that Ella you were making that right now we cannot see the path. But the path shall emerge. Path shall emerge. Ella (21:25.464) Yes. Exactly. And your story also remind me, regardless which part of the world that we were born and grew up and settled, culture, story are the same because we have exactly the same story as you just shared. This is all the culture. We use a different language, but we're trying to get the same wisdom pass. Utkarsh Narang (21:46.844) Beautiful. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I 100 % agree with that. And that's the beauty, right? I recently did a podcast with a dear friend who's a storyteller and the link will be somewhere on the screen. People who want to go and watch that. And what he and I were speaking about, know, ultimately stories connect us deeply and stories stir the spirit. We might change the language, but the story, the essence of the story remains the same. But here's a thought Ella, someone who's going through their darkest moments, it's not easy for them to recognize that there is a path forward. How do we get them there? Ella (22:19.374) because I could. Yeah. Ella (22:28.93) Yes. Okay. The only thing I can share is when we feel pain, the only tips I have for people who are currently in the darkness feel pain is stay there. Utkarsh Narang (22:47.472) Hmm. That's... Ella (22:48.546) Don't try to run away. Don't try to stop it. Because this is my observation of myself and also lots of many other people that I coach in my circle. The longer we stay in the pain, there's a possibility for us to see the vertical growth. Because a human, our brain are wired not to like the pain. So there's a lot of evasion. Whenever there's something unpleasant happened, something unhappy happened, something less blessed happened in our, based on our criteria, we run away. We run away. We run away. But the only thing we can go through the pain and make the pain no longer bother us is to sit in the pain long enough. Give you the example. I'm not quite sure whether you practice Vipassana. I practice Vipassana. I started to practice in 2017, 2016. And when I first started my very first 10 days, this crossing leg sitting there for 45 minutes, then 11 hours a day is a hell, it's a torture. I can never sit 45 minutes. No matter what kind of a posture I started, I just couldn't. And the teacher keeps saying, oh, this is the mental habits and the physical habits. This is how we run our life. So until the third year. The third year, I still feel the pain, but probably less painful than my previous year, because in the first couple of years, the pain can be so excruciating. I feel like I'm going to broken my spinal cord if I don't change a little bit. But the third year, I thought I need to give it a go. So there's one session probably approaching the end of the 10 days. The teacher said, let's make a commitment. Don't move. Utkarsh Narang (24:43.173) Yeah. Ella (24:57.888) If you feel the pain, don't move. So I made decision that day, said, don't move. Don't even change the rhythm of your breathing. Just as teacher said, look into the pain. So in my legs, I do start to feel the pain like 30 minutes into it. So rather than think, what could be the exit for this pain? I decided to pay my attention to because it's so painful, my mind cannot focus in other area of my body. That's the only place my intention goes. So looking at that, just purely looking at that, in my mind I was thinking, okay, can you find a word to describe this pain? Can you describe the intensity, the location, whatever it is? And it's magically, when I start to pay attention to that, I didn't move, but the pain was not there anymore. And when I look back in life, I do see people who persistent enough in their troubles, in their difficulties, persistent, persistent belief on the other end of the pain. There's a faith, there's a hope. and the pain is also temporary. And the reason we feel that, we need to identify what is more important for us so that we have such experience. And what kind of lesson I meant to learn from this experience. And how can I shift my mind, the pattern of thinking, the pattern of experiencing, the pattern of reacting through this experience. Utkarsh Narang (26:27.91) Hmm. Ella (26:43.17) So I often get asked, I still have a residue of the pain. Can I get rid of that? And I said, when you think about get rid of that, it sounds to me, it's more like a, how can I process that? If the pain, if the situation, if there's a person, if there's experience when we think about it, it is still painful for us. Utkarsh Narang (26:56.54) Mmm. Ella (27:07.384) That only means one thing. There's something inside of us and not 100 % ready to move away yet. So we need to process, continue to process that until that kind of painful feeling gone, until we 100 % think, I'm glad I had this experience. Utkarsh Narang (27:19.356) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (27:27.622) Hmm. Interesting, interesting. So, so, so don't try and resist the pain. Just sit with the pain, stay there. Don't run away from the pain is what you're saying. And then the longer you stay with the pain, the deeper will be the vertical growth is what you're saying. It's, it's a, it's a, it's again, a fascinating shift that you're making. And then also you're alluding to this fact that trying in that pain, reframe the relationship that you have with the pain. And I think that's what's going to Ella (27:33.984) No? Yeah. Ella (27:55.374) Exactly. Because the more we run away, I'm a firm believer. If I'm meant to learn something from this painful experience, if I run away, I only invite another event. Similar events make me feel even more painful to come to my way. I'm afraid of pain. I don't want that to happen again. So I will make sure it only happens to me for once. Utkarsh Narang (27:56.998) gonna help you move forward. Ella (28:25.92) I need to pass it. So when I say stay there long enough means stay there long enough to process, process this pain, not judging it, not avoid it, not to suppress it, but processing it. So I always feel human, we have this natural ability to live through whatever kind of experience we need to live through. Utkarsh Narang (28:40.134) Yeah. Yeah. Ella (28:55.278) Because this is the other thing I shared in my book, we will never be tested beyond our capacity. So whatever happened to us, we're capable enough to handle it. It might be very big at the very beginning only because we never experienced that before. even when I talking about this with my family, like with my mom, when they have issues or problems, they worried about that. So I always ask. Are we the first person on this planet experience it? We're not. Are we the only human being on this planet experiences this? We're not. So which means there are plenty of people had this experience in the past. Some of them will have a successful experience. Some probably not very successful. So let's find those people who successfully Utkarsh Narang (29:34.332) Good night. Utkarsh Narang (29:40.582) Yeah. Ella (29:50.078) had this painful experience and process to go past it outperform themselves in that experience let's learn from them so it's not like never ending and it's always temporary and there's a temporary some time for different situation different people it might last awake a year or 10 year but it's always temporary not forever Utkarsh Narang (29:58.108) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (30:14.202) Yeah, yeah. Brings up this powerful principle of Buddhism, right? Impermanence. That everything that you experience is impermanent, whether that's your joy, whether that's your sorrow, whether that's the pain, whether that's elation, whether that's love, whether that's just life itself. It's all impermanent. It's all impermanent. Ella (30:18.997) Thank Yes. Ella (30:33.792) Exactly. Yeah, because it's impermanent. So what I practiced in the past is I will go with it to no matter how far it takes me. So if I feel pain, because I used to be this kind of emotional person, I Utkarsh Narang (30:50.406) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (30:55.654) Yeah. Ella (30:56.3) very sensitive with many things. So I would decided back then, I said, if I feel bad, I will go as low as I can. And I have a good habits back then. I journal a lot. I write a lot. Since very young, I love writing. So I journal a lot. So I have lots of dialogue with myself when I journal. So Utkarsh Narang (31:09.692) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (31:21.67) Time and again, time and again, I see that, this idea, and you've so beautifully just like thrown it out there for the world. But I want to kind of nudge our listeners to think about this idea. This dialogue with self is a powerful tool that each one of us has been given. And I think it is also the quality of this dialogue, Ella, that will help us process the pain, sit with it, and at the right time move. Ella (31:38.808) Exactly. Utkarsh Narang (31:52.473) at the right and I want to use the very very thoughtfully use the words very thoughtfully and at the right time grow through that pain because yeah that that dialogue is super important. Ella (32:00.076) Yes, lips rule that pain. Yeah. Yes. So. Back then, because I'm a deep thinker these days, I think a lot. Whatever small things happened, I can think a lot and the people around me cannot get it. So the only way I can find a channel is either writing or reading. So these are very too important channel for me. So these days I still have my journals in my studies and I sometimes open it. thought, oh my gosh, when you were in primary school, grade one, you wrote so much about negative things because negative thoughts. you feel bad like every day is a bad day. Then you start to see this girl in her probably grade six, start to questioning, why it is a bad day? What makes me feel bad? So this is a really the, think a writing, I'm a big fan to encourage everyone when you feel frustrated, when you feel low, when you despair in any kind of struggle feelings. Writing actually is the best way for us to... vent in my view because when we write and questioning our feeling and sometimes when we put down put things down we already have a clarity right so so that's a very good thing to get a clarity about our thoughts rather than allow ourselves the space to ruminate never-ending rumination that's horrible yeah Utkarsh Narang (33:14.438) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (33:26.192) Yeah. And in writing also is like, it's almost like it is the slowest form of expression. So it allows you to, as you were saying, process your thoughts, process that pain. And that's where, this is beautiful. What else do you think if someone, I know you spoke about Vipassana and maybe at the end of this conversation, I'll invite you to lead us through like a five minute meditation. Would that be okay? Let's do that. Let's do that today. But you know, if... Ella (33:31.65) Yeah. Ella (33:35.168) Yes. Yes. Ella (33:49.516) Yeah, sure. Utkarsh Narang (33:54.0) And this also comes from very personal experiences where you can ask a person who is going through pain to look at modalities like meditation or Vipassana or writing or journaling. But in that moment, they're not yet ready to take that leap. So what in your experience helps someone process the pain? Ella (34:16.506) There is one shift I experienced back then. The story is, after two years request to resign from the legal job, I probably finally get the decision made by the bureau. They let me go, but in a way as a dismissed go, but because I have the lawyer license. So that means I cannot really present case in the court, but I can be the in-house counsel for business. But that is a huge setback for me. So I remember that day when we received this notification from the bureau. My mom was crying in the other room. I was sitting on the couch in this room and I can feel very pain because I can only feel my heart was beating but I couldn't sense the existence of the rest of my body like a so damn cold they don't exist I can only feel my heart beat in a slow pace so at that time the one thing I noticed changed in me Because I start to realize there's no one outside of me now. If I complain, if I pointing out that they did wrong, will change this experience for me. So all for survival purpose, I think all the senses now centered in looking inwardly. However, you can put all the pieces of yourself together. Then you can Utkarsh Narang (35:46.844) Hmm. Ella (35:53.71) craft another future for yourself. I think starting from that moment, I was crystal clear for one thing. I take responsibility of my experience. If I decide to feel pain, I let myself sit in the pain. But I no longer, I reflect, every day when I reflect my experience, I no longer use the expression, why they don't, they should, how come they don't. Those kind of expressions no longer exist in my dictionary. The only expression I allow myself to use is, well, this is situation, what I'm going to do now. So I think that shift my mind. Get out, get unstuck of the rumination on the people and the under things that I have no control. So years later when I was in Australia working as a learning development, you know learning development people, we have this problem. I call that problem. It can be very ideal because when we identify the gaps, Utkarsh Narang (37:06.576) Hmm. Hmm. Ella (37:13.228) We're forming up the solutions and the strategies. And it's very natural for us standing at the destination waving hands, say, come here, this is right way to do it. Right? I also noticed myself in that moment. What is my responsibility? Utkarsh Narang (37:15.868) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (37:24.668) Hmm. Ella (37:33.844) I have clear lines about what is my responsibility, what kind of things I pay attention to it can have materialized impact on that situation. And what other things, even I spend lots of my time and energy and resource on it. actually I have no influence. So I draw a very clear line between these two. And there are days that I mentor to myself on daily basis. See the line Ella, see the line. So I think it's the same applied to the pain and the struggle and the difficulties. So being in that situation, asking yourself, what is in my control? Utkarsh Narang (37:56.06) Hmm. Ella (38:20.142) I identified things that 100 % in our control, that our effort can make a difference. And the latter goal of the rest. Utkarsh Narang (38:27.644) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (38:33.192) You know, brings me, I was having this conversation with a friend over coffee last week. We were talking about this idea that, and I love to come to the ideal version that you're saying about L and D also, but we were talking about this idea that how is that person thinking about me? How is that person feeling? How is that person judging me? How is that person perceiving me? We ask so many questions about what others are doing because of me or to me. but we never ask what we are doing to ourselves. And in so many ways, and I'm sure you and all our listeners will agree, we really don't control the thoughts that we have in our mind, right? And it's the simplest thing that we have technically in our skull, so we should be able to control it, but we don't. And here we are trying to predict what others will think about us. So I think this idea that you're giving our listeners, sit with that pain. Ella (39:08.878) Yes. Ella (39:21.858) Yes. Utkarsh Narang (39:26.918) have a dialogue with yourself and try to identify what is it that's in your control. And when you have identified that, then the next step, the most difficult step is to take action. Ella (39:38.158) Take totally, even just stay with your first point, stay in the pain. Because staying in the pain to process, what do we really process about? Honestly, when we're sitting there writing the journals and venting our journals and the pool of feelings in the journals, eventually you will notice we pretty much process two things. The way of thinking, what kind of thoughts I have. Damn, make me feel this way. Utkarsh Narang (39:45.68) Yeah. Yeah. Ella (40:07.894) So we have clarity about the thoughts and emotions. The longer we stay in the pain, the more we spend or invest time and energy on processing these two things. The more clarity we have, we start to see the connections between the thoughts and the emotions and other reactions, right? So the more clarity we see this, the more we know what is the right way to think. What is the thought that is actually actual objective thoughts? Or what could be the thoughts? They're just a bias and a prejudice and other assumptions. And we just invest so much emotions for no reason, no any apparent benefits. Right? So I guess that is the way for processing. When we process that clearly enough, Utkarsh Narang (40:42.812) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (40:54.32) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (40:57.658) Yeah. Ella (41:05.354) I think I move to the next stage, I get very stingy about my emotions. So there are stages probably in 2006 or 2007, those years I always said to people, every day I only have a hundred units of my energy. I'm going to be very calculated. What are the things I'm going to give my units of energy? Utkarsh Narang (41:10.652) Mm-hmm. Utkarsh Narang (41:21.69) Hmm. Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (41:29.616) Yeah. Ella (41:31.067) So I'm not going to waste my energy on the things that have no apparent benefit. Utkarsh Narang (41:37.722) Yeah, yeah. And that's such a such an important and I know I think we need we might need like a part two here, but this this calculation between energy and time, I think it's a it's a fascination conversation that we can have because they seem equal, but they're not. And how you put your energy into the things that that almost like replenish your energy is what's going to help you keep going. But I want to before we kind of get to any Ella (41:45.39) you Utkarsh Narang (42:07.078) closure here, right? I really want to hear like this, word that you used in our offline conversations, even today, what does this inner edge, inner edge mean? Ella (42:16.942) In my view, every human being, equally, we simultaneously operate on four inner operating systems all the time, all day long. And these four inner operating systems are mental operating systems, how we choose, how we process information and make decisions. emotional operating system, which means how we perceive and how we sense stuff and how we conduct ourselves or react to whatever the emotional experience. And the third is the spiritual. Spiritual operating system in my view is about your virtues, your values, your principles and your believing systems. And the third, fourth, I learned in a hard way is the physical operating systems. Because for most of the people I work with, including myself, of when we are young that we believe as long as I don't see the doctor, I'm okay. But no, actually our smart brain is the part of the body. So even we have, we can have a huge intention to conquer the world, but if our physical body cannot handle that, we cannot do anything. Right. So there's a fall in the operating system at the foundation of inner age. When I say inner edge is we do need to understand for this fall systems to operate. We have the by default patterns all influenced by how we grow up or the education we get. When I say by default, by default, it's unnecessary to be the most useful and effective when we grow up. So we need to understand by default, what is my patterns on these four things? And based on whatever we decide to do or whatever the situation we have, we may need to constantly tweak. Utkarsh Narang (43:40.988) you Ella (44:10.486) and shift. And these days, I do believe all the challenges and the difficulties come to our way. For us to experience that is because something inside need to change. Maybe change is a big word, need to shift a little bit. Because yeah, because because the only time and this is a human, I guess, only tiny, small amount of people Utkarsh Narang (44:23.612) you I love that. Ella (44:38.048) we would love to take the steps to change before the change is needed. Majority of us, we take the steps to change because we have to. Why we have to? Because it's so damn painful. If we don't do that, we cannot go ahead. Right? That's the reason. So inner edge is like we build, I build this capability framework for caudron. Utkarsh Narang (44:55.002) Yeah. Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (45:04.998) Mm-hmm. Ella (45:05.17) domains, each of them have four levels of competencies, and each level build up on each other. And they all have a different kind of skills and knowledge and habits. I call this is more like a habit building, because foundational level if we don't have enough habits, we cannot support the advanced level of the competency to show up. Yeah. So that's the image. Thank you. Utkarsh Narang (45:07.761) Mm-hmm. Utkarsh Narang (45:14.906) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (45:26.822) Yeah. Yeah. So powerful. You and you've spoken about the four operating systems. And I think an addition that I always kind of speak about in my conversations with people and workshops is that you have to keep working on upgrading your OS. Your operating system needs to keep upgrading. Absolutely. It's like, it's like your MacBook Pro, right? The MacBook keeps upgrading the iPhone. They keep releasing a new update every few weeks and months because Ella (45:44.834) This is the list. Eat the faculty. Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (45:54.704) to kill those bugs, to fix those edges, to fix those challenges that are happening within you, you have got to upgrade your OS. And I think you've shared beautiful lessons on that, because to fix or to not use the word fix, to upgrade your operating system, you need to be aware of those darkest moments. You need to look at it like you're hiking and the path is going to appear. I love what you've spoken about. I know there's so much, right? But I want to be also very thoughtful and mindful of the time that we you and I are investing and also our listeners are getting to invest and my craving for knowledge and wisdom never ends. So I can do like five hour episodes and feel great about it too. But if now we go into that state and ask you Ella that in a few decades from now, there'll be that 80 year old, eight zero year old Ella that'll be standing in front of the mirror in your house. If that Ella were to come to you right now and give you one piece of advice, what do think she'll say to you? Ella (46:32.238) you Ella (46:54.87) Okay, I will say don't play small. Don't hide. Just stand out. It's okay to stand out. And even sometimes you feel unsure, but it doesn't matter. But don't hide and don't play small. And we all have a mission to accomplish. So don't give yourself excuses not to accomplish that. So don't hide. Utkarsh Narang (47:30.79) powerful to all our listeners who are still with us right now at the 47th minute. Don't play small. And I actually have this written on my table here. A question that I always ask myself Ella, and I think you'll resonate with this is that how is your playing small serving the world? I think it's a great question to ask yourself every time and again. this wise 80 year old Ella has just spoken the truth to us. So let's not play small. Let's make the most of our time here on this planet. At this moment, Ella, we'll wrap up the conversation. But once we do, I'll ask you to lead us through a five minute meditation, if that's okay. And it's up to the listeners if they want to stay for that meditation and then close their browsers and close their apps. That's absolutely perfect. Ella (48:01.207) Yes. Ella (48:15.543) Lift! Utkarsh Narang (48:23.45) But such a joy and pleasure it was Ella to have this conversation with you. Thank you for your time. I truly, truly appreciate that. Ella (48:30.178) No, I love to do that. So rather than do five minutes, let's do three breaths. This is my favorite one. Utkarsh Narang (48:34.584) Let's do three breaths. Beautiful. We will do three breaths. But before we do that to everyone who's listening on a podcast platform, do not forget to share this with someone who you think might love this conversation. And if you're on YouTube, we must appease to the algorithm gods because they help us grow. So like, share and subscribe. Leave a comment. You will find all details to connect with Ella in the show notes. So enjoy reaching out to her on LinkedIn or wherever you want to. And that's Utkash and Ella signing off. We'll now get into the three breaths. and then we close the episode. Over to you, Ella. Ella (49:07.04) Okay, good. So find a comfortable position for yourself. We can sit or stand. Keep your eyes open or close doesn't matter. And now I'd like you to take one deep breath. Ella (49:25.9) And when you're breathing in, pay attention which part of your body. feel most vividly about the process of breathing. Ella (49:42.22) and give it a little bit attention to those parts of your body. Ella (49:51.362) And when you're ready, we can do the second deep breath. And this time, I'd like you to ask yourself... What is most important now? Ella (50:14.06) and for the third breath Ella (50:19.446) Shift your mind to the question. Ella (50:26.232) What is important for me to do? Ella (50:39.874) whenever you're ready. Ella (50:44.066) You can wake yourself up back to the words. That's the straight breath I use quite regularly in my daytime. Utkarsh Narang (50:54.78) Thank you for that. Ella (50:56.066) Thank you.