Utkarsh Narang (00:01.494) In a world that is driven by AI and algorithms, today's guest is going to help you stay human, stay diverse as we speak about unconscious bias and how the future will be created, co-created and not coded. Welcome Dr. Riza to the conversation. Looking forward to this. Dr. Riza Kadilar (00:18.32) think that's my situation. Me too, me too. And thanks for the opportunity. Utkarsh Narang (00:25.3) Absolutely and it's 7.30 am in Sweden, right? Where you are. The sun's just rising as the sun's setting for me in Melbourne. Dr. Riza Kadilar (00:31.642) Just a bit south of Sweden. Just a bit south of Sweden, Netherlands. And it's a beautiful morning. It's a beautiful morning, yeah. Utkarsh Narang (00:36.888) Beautiful, amazing. It's a perfect morning to have a deep conversation then. Dr. Riza Kadilar (00:44.472) Yeah, waking up. Utkarsh Narang (00:46.446) Perfect. At the podcast, Riza, the first question that we open up with is if that eight-year-old little boy, eight-year-old Riza, wherever Riza was growing up, if that eight-year-old boy were to come and meet you right now, what kind of a conversation do you think will emerge between the two of you? Dr. Riza Kadilar (01:09.936) I think I would really aim and try to benefit like me Riza now, like let me put myself here. I would definitely aim to benefit from the curiosity. What makes this eight year old Riza curious about? Because eight years means he already knows much more than I do about social media, about AI, about everything new in my life because he's born into those. So I would still ask for what he's curious about, which feelings evokes in him when it comes to facing the world. Although most probably at eight years old with ideal situations, he will be in a very protective area because what I know, every generation becomes more protective than the previous ones. It's a fact, research shows that every generation is more protective of their parents. It's weird. So most probably he will be living in a more protective area than when I was raised. But within this protected area, what makes him curious? What emotions, what feelings attached? What concerns? So I would really like to hear, not only hear, but also feel together with him. Utkarsh Narang (02:31.79) Mm. Dr. Riza Kadilar (02:32.802) about the world is waiting for him. Because, you know, I'm prejudiced, I'm biased, I'm kind of confused because I tried to read the world from all my 50 plus years or 58 years of past experience. And my past experience today doesn't help me to understand the future, unfortunately, or I stay limited. So an eight year old will definitely be my companion. Utkarsh Narang (02:57.582) That's fascinating. So you said my 50 years past experience does not allow me to decipher what the future would look like. And I'll come back to that statement. I'm making a note of that. But here's the challenge then. You said you're 58. Thank you for sharing your age. If we go back 50 years when you were eight years old, Was that a more connected world than what we have today or was that a more divided world? Dr. Riza Kadilar (03:28.464) here, I'm here, I'm here. I just lost the connection for a sec. Could you repeat the question? Sorry for that. It doesn't happen again. So I corrected, yeah. Utkarsh Narang (03:33.934) Yes, that's okay. That's okay. We'll edit it out. So what I'm saying is if we go back 50 years, when you were eight years old, that will be, I think, what, 1975? And so that world, was it more connected or is today's world more connected? Dr. Riza Kadilar (03:57.136) Definitely today's world is much more connected in a virtual way. By the way, I'm 57. So we're talking about 76. And 76 was, 76 was, I don't remember of course 76. It's so, so long time. It's, you know, I always say our generation is lucky because we have also seen the term BC in our life. Not before Christ, but before COVID. So forget about 50 years. Think about 10 years is already gone. Kind of, know. Utkarsh Narang (04:05.038) 76. Utkarsh Narang (04:19.502) Mmm. Dr. Riza Kadilar (04:26.904) anything before COVID, it's kind of a fuzzy, foggy, whatever. But anything before COVID, I would say, or before the millennium and everything, we used to live our lives similar ways, like maybe the old Romans or Mesopotamians or whatever used to live, because with all the data sensory that we collect from our environment. And for thousands of years, we just lived in a way that all these five senses were useful as long as there is an impetus that touch them around us. For the last, I don't know, 20 years, 10 years, depends on your appetite, interest to technology and everything. 99%, I don't have an evidence number, but a vast majority of our emotional triggers are triggered by virtual realities. So in the middle of the night, when you see a picture of something in another part of the world all your emotions got triggered but it's not your reality actually but it is so compared to this 50 years ago just watch the famous movie Zorba on a Greek island we're all our own Zorba in our own Greek islands now that's a big challenge how can I how can I how can I create my island is almost impossible and so much all my emotional triggers are so much affected and connected with others in a virtual way, in a not real way, but my brain is not wired to distinguish what is real, what is not real. Everything's real for me. From 20 centimeters from my eye, data comes and then creates all these things that's absolute. So that's why I think it's a very different world we live in compared to my childhood. Utkarsh Narang (06:23.224) Yeah, that's very interesting. And you said just a few minutes ago that your past experiences do not allow you to decipher the future. And that's historians used to say, right? That you should learn from the past to make... so like just dissect that statement for me. Dr. Riza Kadilar (06:40.528) A couple of things, on maybe community level, on cultural level, countries or tribes or whatever you name it, okay? Maybe things will repeat itself. So there's so much we can learn from the past because at the end of the day, whatever technology change, humanity is the same humanity. We have same drivers psychologically. But on the other hand, as an individual who is kind of trying to find my way around. with my own utility function, psychological utility function. I don't know which factor will be a threat, which one will be an opportunity. I tend to kind of dilute down and like, know, take things calmly and easily. When the financial crisis came, I, before I lived so many, I used to be a banker, okay? So I went through different crisis all through my... And I would say, okay, we were lucky as a generation in the part of the world where I lived, we didn't see huge destructions and everything. But in terms of financial destruction, I think we went through major, major issues. But in all of them, I was kind of reading the past with the hope to be able to read the future. But today, maybe I'm exaggerating, but a couple of things with the concept of diversity. in our daily life and also the promise of the LLMs, the Generative AI, whatever the AI, you name it, okay, it's evolving itself. I'm really kind of questioning whether all my past experience, how relevant they will be to help me in my near future. Utkarsh Narang (08:30.658) And is this because the future is changing too rapidly? Dr. Riza Kadilar (08:35.472) Yeah, again, when you look to the main big trends, maybe the same things happening. So for example, there is less feminine in the world. So many of the humanity problems we sort it out. Despite our kind of negative feelings around it, the reality of the humanity is much better than compared to 50 years ago. And we doubled our size and number of population and everything. In that respect, who am I to kind of criticize everything? But on the other hand, for example, there are a couple of things. example, knowing, having enough information or possessing things was very important in my youth. If you want to listen to music, you have to have the album. Or maybe if you want to be kind of ahead of the competition, you're going to be expert of something. So I think today the most threatened ones are the ones who have the most possessions because we can share. everything almost. And then the ones who know the most because you know, I have my digital companion, whatever the you name it, the Chechipites of this world, all magnificent, whatever you name them, they know it more. They hallucinate. But sometimes my, my, most knowledgeable friends, they were also hallucinating. But you know, coming from an era where reading astropedias, learning about things in the world, trying to understand the world, having more knowledge and then accumulating more things, cars, houses, whatever you name it, books, then we live in a world where I have access to information any second I have. Possession doesn't really mean much because I have enough. Most of the people around me have enough. And the concept of enough physically is very, but psychologically, I live in amazing unsatisfied appetite. because of this imminent instant gratification need I developed. So that's why instant gratification need, changing the concept of position and knowledge, the expertise losing its, and then I was raised in an area where if I am with my community who looks like me, I would prosper more because within the community, if I get them organized, my leadership style, Dr. Riza Kadilar (10:59.864) find people alike, get them organized, motivate them, here we go, we win. I need to learn how to co-create with people who are not like me, totally unlike me, age, race, belief systems, all mixed up. I was sitting next to, I was at a dinner function two days ago and sitting next to a lovely lady, she is heading the... woman network of one of the top Ivy League universities and everything. She said among their members, there are 50,000 members all over the world, five generations, five generations sitting together, working together, co-creating together. That's a challenge. That's something new. That's why my past experience, I need to rewire, revisit, relearn. Utkarsh Narang (11:36.738) Wow. Utkarsh Narang (11:51.118) Hmm. This insatiable appetite, I like the sound of that phrase because you're so right that psychologically we are in a space where nothing's ever going to be enough it seems like. No amount of, we need more technology, we need more content, we need more money, we need more power. But where does this end? Or maybe not even right now. How is it impacting this human race, this insatiable appetite that we have developed? Dr. Riza Kadilar (12:22.424) I don't know, on one hand, it has a lot because growth is filled with it. The whole economical activity really filled. I just read, you know, I love London. I was in London last two days. I love the tube. I hate it. It's awful place. Okay, you don't want to be in tube in London. You know, the worst place to be. But then this vibrant community is packed. Many different people and people are reading. So that's how love the paper, paper, the real paper, you know, paper. Utkarsh Narang (12:28.429) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (12:48.526) Yeah, the real paper. Dr. Riza Kadilar (12:52.248) And I've saw one big, big picture. It says, lazy, whatever, whatever people are not good for economy. So like the message going there. So you can't be lazy. You have to be fit. You have to consume. You have to ask for more. So this is the kind that it's good. But on personal level, I think despite all the equipment, the technology and the Western world or whatever you name it, the current civilization that we live in, really kind of equipped us with lots of things, but it kind of emptied us inside. So I don't feel myself any happier than my 2000 years predecessors. Maybe middle age was not nice. Life was difficult there. I don't know. In Europe, there are some moments in history where I don't want to be. But in general, with all the change, Utkarsh Narang (13:24.078) Hmm. Dr. Riza Kadilar (13:47.288) insatiable appetite, instant gratification, everything. On one hand, it really helps us to kind of, I don't know, check the Olympic records and everything. So we have a progress there. But on the other hand, we don't really measure how satisfied I am, how happy, how fulfilled, you know, how many emotions I can really let go in a day. There is no such metrics, okay? So in that respect, we see in many parts of the world, for example, I live in the Netherlands, there's a huge rise in burnouts in the corporate world. People are burned out. You see in many parts of the world, there's a kind of reaction among the voters towards extreme ideas. Populism is not only to please people, but also to tell them that they can really vote for extreme things. So we are kind of on one hand questioning because deep inside all those feelings are not helping us. But on the other hand, yeah, we also enjoy all the material world. So that's why not easy, not easy to answer this question. Utkarsh Narang (14:57.016) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (15:01.102) We're painting an almost sorry picture for the world because what we're saying is that we've built this insatiable appetite for more that's not taking us anywhere. You spoke about us not being happier on the inside than our predecessors from 2000 years ago. This never ending need of the world. And yes, we're wanting to enjoy the material pleasure, but at what cost is what I'm asking. And I was reading somewhere that I think the current generation, the Gen Zs, they're finding it painful to be in jobs than to be unemployed because the pressures of the corporate world are real. So how do we help someone who's listening to us right now and feeling like, damn, this is a tough world to live in? Dr. Riza Kadilar (15:51.28) It's not tough. They haven't seen tough. Okay, so let me start there because you know, I do sympathize and I do respect because everyone has a certain level, normal level, okay? So whenever you lose this normal level, anything sub level is awful. So the Gen Z, I'm talking about maybe any part in the world, okay? They came up with certain entitlements and losing them is awful. So that's why I do agree with their... negative feelings around this or how they feel bad about it and everything. But on the other hand, I also agree with them. Think about, for example, I visit from time to time the middle age, the museums in small European towns about their history. And the section about the middle ages are awful. Think about the medicine in middle age or think about work in middle age. Okay, from 500 years later, we go back and we see, awful, know, how is this, way they did operations or the treatments, you know, even 100 years ago, awful, you don't want to kind of hear about it, I feel bad. Maybe in 200 years time from today, maybe 100 years, maybe 500, I don't know, they will feel the same for us. they were supposed to go to work. What, nine to five? Utkarsh Narang (17:14.574) Mmm. Dr. Riza Kadilar (17:20.88) They hit to really physically go to a place to work. Oh, you know, you can, can exaggerate, but many things we do is normal today. Maybe we'll be seen inhumanistic, awful, like, you know, wild, unacceptable in years to come. Maybe Gen Z is the early sensors in our community that tells us there is something structurally wrong in the way we design work. It helps. with industrial revolution. It had increased the manufacturing and everything. But today, what happened in agriculture in the 19th, 18th century is happening exactly the same in the manufacturing. We don't need people in manufacturing. The manufacturing jobs will disappear, whether we like it or not, but they will. Even in service industry, we realize that we don't need people. So, now we'll just do so. We move on the ladder, but then... The whole concept of motivation change, the structures change. I hate to see companies still showing me their organizational chart. So why do you really force the people to get into a box? That's why we should listen more, Gen Z, to learn from them, to let them design the work, because at the end of the day, the work will continue. Humanities manufacturing capacity will increase. Utkarsh Narang (18:29.645) Mm. Utkarsh Narang (18:37.091) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (18:44.194) Yeah. Hmm. Dr. Riza Kadilar (18:47.068) RGDPs will flourish. You all those things will increase. Market capitalization, five trillion dollar company, just one company. Just think, go back 10 years ago, when we've seen the first one trillion company, we said unacceptable, unimaginable. Now three, four, five. So that's why I'm very positive, optimistic about the future, but the design of work should change. Who's gonna do it? Not me, not the experts. Utkarsh Narang (18:56.27) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (19:03.107) Okay. Utkarsh Narang (19:13.708) Hmm. Dr. Riza Kadilar (19:14.626) not the professors of Ivy League schools or whatever, but maybe we should really listen to the Gen Z to let them design the work in the most efficient and also enjoyable way, fulfilling way, meaningful way. Utkarsh Narang (19:30.36) That's really cool because what you're saying is A, we should listen to them because they might have new ways of thinking about work, what we have not thought about yet. And I love this idea that maybe 100, 200, 300 years later, people are going to look back and say, those people in the 80s and the 90s, what was wrong with them? What were they doing? And how you define it to be like a before COVID world and after COVID world. That's also fascinating. In your work, you talk a lot about co-creation. and you speak about we don't look at our differences but we co-create through them. Can you speak a little more to that idea? Dr. Riza Kadilar (20:09.68) You know, I was raised with the concept that, you know, the differences were always there. Despite Dr. Harari says, homo sapiens, the only reason why they conquered the world because they were not strong or fast or whatever, but they knew how to get organized, collaborate, and this embeddedly building us. So humanity, among all the other living things in the world, we can really get organized. We can really kind of find around. And that was the case all through history. Those communities who can better organize, collaborate, flourished. And quick fix is to create people, similar people look alike, know, belief systems, educations, the army, formations, everything, you know, that was creating similar patterns or like formatted people so that they wake up at the same time in the morning, they pray to the same God, whatever, so that they kind of... And it worked. But what has changed maybe, BC or AC, you after COVID, it could be the technology. As I said, all the emotional triggers are coming from the virtual world, but also the most of the real value creation comes from the new ways of doing business, our technology co-creation. For example, the vaccine, the COVID vaccine. how more than 500 research labs all over the world work together to create a vaccine such as this. Amazing. So when we are really under pressure, we tend to put aside our differences. So I was raised with the saying that, yes, we can work together despite our differences. Now I change one word. Yes, we do work together with our differences, not despite, with. It's easy to say, very difficult to do because my brain is wired. It's my animal brain. Okay. The pre context, whatever you call it. It's always the same. Whenever the impetus comes, say threat, enemy or friend or opportunity or a threat or whatever. I categorize things and depending on the categorization, either I fight or I flight or I freeze. Most of time I freeze. Okay. And it doesn't help because today Dr. Riza Kadilar (22:34.948) with the demographic movement, in Europe there are countries where 15 % of the population are not born in this country. There are cities which much more part of their population who people who are not born in the city. So being born somewhere doesn't mean that you're different or similar, but most likely you have a different perspective in the world. Your understanding of geography is different, your understanding of the... the nature is different, understanding of the human context is different, and we all live together. And then technology, demographics, and plus the race of the culture in the Asian cultures impacting the Western world. I think we really have to embed, and I think we're slowly going back to our topic with all our... prejudices, biases, conscious, unconscious. It really helped us to prosper with people like us. Now to first be aware and then to decide whether we wanna change them or not. Because we live in an era where we do and behave to and with better to co-create with people who are different. Communicate with our differences, co-create with our differences. Utkarsh Narang (23:38.22) Hmm. Dr. Riza Kadilar (24:00.782) And that's My brain is not wired to deal with it. So that's why it requires an explicit effort, a kind of dedicated effort to be aware of this change. So that's actually the main point of my book. Utkarsh Narang (24:14.435) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (24:19.822) Hmm. That's, so you spoke about, and these biases come very naturally to us, right? Because that's how the reptilian brain is programmed. And so you're saying, instead of saying that we work despite our differences, we are going to work through our differences. And the idea is that we need to co-create with our differences. But what I see in the world is whether there's a large population of a city that's immigrant or different. Right now the world seems in a divisive place where it feels like every government, every, whether it's the US or Australia or India or London, there are rallies happening around the world where people are trying to create these almost these metaphorical walls and sometimes even physical walls. Some presidents want to build that. But what's your thought about that? Dr. Riza Kadilar (25:11.088) It's the good old concept of yin yang. Everything comes with its opposite. On one hand, while writing and while talking about all these topics, I don't wanna be seen like I'm preaching to the already, know, the converted, whatever. But at the end of day, on one hand, we know, we really know the research shows, our anecdotal data shows the way we live in, especially in big cities in the world, really proves that... We are in an era to co-create, to live together with our differences. But at same time, for our reptilian brain, and also for all the fears that we are kind of developing within us, it doesn't help. Any kind of difference is a threat. It's very rare to see a difference as an opportunity. So you gotta really feel so comfortable with your own skin to see differences as an opportunity. So the very first reaction is threat. Utkarsh Narang (25:51.982) Hmm. Dr. Riza Kadilar (26:05.37) Because everyone has something to lose. Don't forget, I started, I said that in my childhood, one of the things that really kind of helped is to collect possessions. You have more books, toys, whatever you were better off. Your friends were looking up to you like you have more toys than I do, whatever. So which means those who are born just a decade or two decades, whatever, ago, we're all born to... Utkarsh Narang (26:05.582) Yeah. Dr. Riza Kadilar (26:35.024) collect things and things could be knowledge as well, okay? And we see everything can be lost, can be taken away with digital, with demographics, with the change of the population, economic functions, jobs, definition of jobs. We are all living under a big threat. you know, my past performance is definitely not a guarantee for my, not only performance, but also my status. but also my emotions, my appetite, how it will be fulfilled and everything. So that's why I think we are all kinda afraid in our own way with all these changes and how to react at the end of the day. Yeah, social media, whatever you call them or any kind of platform. The problem with them, there are many problems, but one of the problems with them is Utkarsh Narang (27:17.987) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (27:27.406) Mm. Dr. Riza Kadilar (27:32.846) We all create our echo chambers and we only talk to the people who are like us. Despite that you believe that we talk to the crowd, billions of people know the algorithm only show it to the people that who are like us. So at the end of this echo chamber and then other than that, what else do I have? And somebody asked, how do you feel? The elections are not about how do you think, it's all about how do you feel? And my feelings are not good, okay? Utkarsh Narang (27:35.246) Correct. Utkarsh Narang (27:56.653) Hmm. Dr. Riza Kadilar (28:00.45) I'm filled with so much concern, fear, anger, whatever you name it. And then it comes with those who really play the violin of my emotional, I'm the instrument, my emotional instruments, whatever. Those politicians who play the best, they win. But it's not the same in the corporate world. In corporate world, check all the best performing companies. They know how to deal with different, very diverse. Utkarsh Narang (28:00.493) Mm. Utkarsh Narang (28:19.822) Mm-hmm. Dr. Riza Kadilar (28:30.556) workforce, very diverse geographies, very diverse schooling. In business world, it's very different than the political world. But I think we have to go through the time where they will coexist. Utkarsh Narang (28:37.432) Mm. Utkarsh Narang (28:49.016) Hmm. Hmm. That's, that's a, that's that's a beautiful hope. And I'd love for us to, to go there. So, so you spoke about this yin and yang, which I love and how the brain perceives any kind of difference as a threat. And you know, what I've also perceived is, is that we feel that all of us are really fair-minded and very balanced, but we all have these invisible biases that we carry. How do, how do we help someone? How do we? How do we support all of us right now through this podcast to make these unconscious biases visible and not to guilt someone but to help them grow? Dr. Riza Kadilar (29:29.1) At the end of the unconscious biases are not bad. That makes us live most efficiently. Our brain receives, I don't know, there are studies about it, billions of impetus with all these five senses, all in any moment in time. So we cannot really process them all. We don't have to process them all. So we kind of tend them to categorize them like a pathway on a field. So first time you go very slow, then you go... Utkarsh Narang (29:38.552) Mm. Dr. Riza Kadilar (29:58.072) on the same path again and again it becomes a highway. Life is much easier that way. The problem with this when the geography change, when the environment change, when everything's changed our pathways becomes our own barriers because we don't see the opportunities and threats around us. So that's very simple thing. So that's our unconscious bias or conscious or unconscious biases, they are good for us. There's nothing wrong with them. The problem, what brings us here will not bring us there. which means with all the changing world, we gotta be aware of our highways, our walls, our generalizations, talk patterns, emotional triggers. As long as we are aware, we have the freedom to make a decision about keeping them or not. And there are tools. For example, one of them is the open source. It's a project that's been around for quite some time. I also mentioned it in my book. It's called Project Implicit. Utkarsh Narang (30:26.446) Hmm. Dr. Riza Kadilar (30:56.528) And the website is very easy. It's harvard.implicit.edu, whatever, something like this. They can search and do it. There are many tests and it basically goes very simple way of like, you can test your bias towards gender, physical appearance, race, whatever you name it. Okay. And then you answer certain questions and it's not about right or wrong, but the connections between you create certain, you know, between different patterns and alternatives and everything. And then it gives you a kind of graph. It tells you this is where you sit compared to the population who have already done this. Of course it's biased. it's, most of the people are from the Western world and everything, but it gives you an idea whether you have a bias, unconscious bias on there are 20, there are a dozen, more than a dozen different tests that you can take there. And it gives you a kind of picture. And then, then the real work starts. Utkarsh Narang (31:55.788) Hmm. Hmm. Dr. Riza Kadilar (31:56.88) How it serves you? How much help you are with this bias? Is there a reason why you gotta change this bias? Of course it's helping you for many ways, but maybe it's also preventing you to reach your best. I can give you many examples and I think it's easy for our audience to also kind of think about it. We are... Utkarsh Narang (32:02.808) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (32:08.856) Hmm. Dr. Riza Kadilar (32:24.238) build with all these biases, maybe from our family, our childhood, our work environment. And if we continue to build more biases, conscious, unconscious, and then we believe they serve us, but sometimes they don't. So my takeaway would be check it out, be aware, and then decide. You don't have to include everything. You don't have to change who you are, but you gotta sometimes make... Utkarsh Narang (32:27.406) you Utkarsh Narang (32:46.072) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (32:50.391) Hmm. Dr. Riza Kadilar (32:53.826) informed decisions rather than go with the flow. Utkarsh Narang (32:55.566) I love that. Take informed decisions because what you spoke a little while earlier, which was that we create these, these eco chambers around us where we're looking and talking to the same kind of people on social media. So we feel that all the world needs is A, whereas we've never seen someone who is talking about an F or an or an N. And I absolutely love that. This idea of co-creation, if someone's listening to us 35 minutes into the conversation and they feel They want to work through these differences. What does co-creation look like Riza? Dr. Riza Kadilar (33:31.034) Hmm. Very good question. I don't think about it. Thanks. I like receiving questions. Exactly. Maybe that's what we do. That's what we do. Because create in itself is a very ambitious word, isn't it? Who am I to create something? It's a big word. On the other hand, I know my body creates literally billions of new cells every day. Utkarsh Narang (33:34.786) Hmm. Let's, let's go create something. Let's go create something right now. Utkarsh Narang (33:40.995) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (33:49.249) Oof Dr. Riza Kadilar (33:59.438) It's a regeneration going on every part of my body. So on one hand, I'm the source of creation and on the other hand, who am I to claim that I'm creating something? But I think when we look back to our lives, we do create great moments, bad moments, good souvenirs, sometimes a piece of work. Sometimes our work defines of what we create. Sometimes our families, sometimes our neighborhood. You know, that's why I need to think more about the word of creation. What do we create? How do we define what you create? But my emphasis is on the call. Because when I was raised, I was raised with the concept of Superman, know, the Hercules. You gotta carry the word on your shoulder, the Atlas shredded, whatever. So, know, the individualism, whatever. This may not, no longer really, really the absolute truth. Check all the superheroes. There are no longer just one superhero. There is a band of superheroes together, working together, a gang, whatever you know them, good friends, reliable parties coming together and solving the biggest problems and everything. So that's it more looks like whatever you create, okay, it's up to you to define the word create. Utkarsh Narang (35:02.03) Hmm. Dr. Riza Kadilar (35:27.546) Who am I to say how to define? But put the focus on the core. From being this individual hero of my life, how can we collectively become the heroes of our lives? And I think this is where the mystery lies. And this may be where we should learn more from Gen Z's or maybe my eight-year-old version. because I don't play enough computer games. But most probably if I did play enough computer games, they already co-create together in a virtual way maybe. So that's why again, why am I to tell? But at the end of the day, we gotta be all aware. Utkarsh Narang (36:15.104) It's it. I love the streaming. So what we're talking about is I had a question which then you've flipped it beautifully to say it's a it's a yin and yang situation, right? Who am I to create versus my body creates billions of cells every week. so who am I to create? But I'm also the creator. And I love what you spoke about individual hero versus collective hero's journey is what I'm hearing you say. I think how I see and I love your view. So I'm come from India and so there's a deep spiritual connection to my life that I feel really proud of and it kind of is like the guiding force. And so I feel like the creator, whoever that higher force is, has already put these seeds out there that will flourish and that'll grow into whatever we are seeing right now and we'll see over the next few centuries and millennia and whatever. And so... If I were to consider myself just as like a vehicle to that creation without getting attached to what I'm creating, would that make my creation a more beautiful thing for the world? Where it does not serve me, but serves the world. For instance, creating this podcast. Are we like the biggest podcast in the world? No, but we find joy in having these conversations when we have Riza from Netherlands joining 8am in the 7.30am in the morning. Dr. Riza Kadilar (37:16.944) Good. Utkarsh Narang (37:45.422) And so we create this with the sense of non-attachment, but also seeking how we can create something bigger. I don't know if I'm making sense, but yeah, just what is that igniting in you? Dr. Riza Kadilar (37:55.088) You do. You do, my friend. This is the best way to put it. is goosebumps on my, you know, when you define it that way, you know, what I really, and I also put it in my book. There are some cultures, there are some ways of thinking, old and current, that we should all learn in the Western world. We are kind of stuck. And I think I have a chapter dedicated to Japan. Utkarsh Narang (38:12.846) Mm. Mm. Utkarsh Narang (38:21.55) Hmm. Dr. Riza Kadilar (38:22.16) But if I write the book again, I will dedicate, I also dedicate some idea to Africa. But I think the culture, the country where we should learn the most equally with the other two is India. Because when we, you know, I can tell you a story. I don't think I put it in the book, but maybe it is there, sometimes I forget. I was visiting Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia, and I... Utkarsh Narang (38:35.79) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (38:43.192) Hmm. Hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Dr. Riza Kadilar (38:49.68) I'm very sensitive to the odor, My smell. My family, are so kind. They even don't use any perfume or whatever. So any kind of good or bad, any kind of smell, is really bad for me. So I feel really bad around there, okay? So that's, I don't know what. So I visited an Indian temple. It was a beautiful, amazing temple in Kuala Lumpur. It was early in the morning, like this morning, before sunrise and everything. But... All the smell, know, the good, bad, everything together, I got really, really hard time in just because. And I explained it to an Indian friend the other day. And she told me, your capacity for inclusion for smell is so limited. Why do you exclude? Why do you exclude some smell? So what's wrong with smells? What's wrong with them? What bad they kind of get you? I never looked into that, OK? So it's a very simple. Utkarsh Narang (39:40.035) Yeah. Dr. Riza Kadilar (39:48.28) anecdote that I kind of, that changed my perspective about India. So we always talk about tolerance. Tolerance is not a good word. Tolerance is bad. Tolerance means you don't accept, but you tolerate. It's awful. It's so centric. It was centric. But when you accept things as it is, and I like the concept, it's all Asian concept. It's in Turkey. I'm also original from Turkey. The same old wisdom from the Asia living in harmony. Utkarsh Narang (39:54.146) Yeah, love it. Utkarsh Narang (40:02.99) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (40:12.974) Hmm. Hmm. Yeah. Dr. Riza Kadilar (40:17.154) When people are talking about sustainability, I always turn the conversation back to how can you create a harmony within yourself with people around you and with the universe. If you live in harmony, you don't have to be the best big whatever, you know, broadcast in the world. As long as you do it in harmony with your, okay, best in the world, stakeholders, whatever the stakeholders, whoever you touch, physical, but that's why the way you put it is so nice. So I totally agree with it. Utkarsh Narang (40:47.042) Thank you. I love it. And the point is what you are creating or what I'm creating or what everyone else, the 8.8 odd billion people in the world are creating. A few hundred years from now, as you and I were speaking earlier, no one's going to remember that. And people were like, what was wrong with them? Why were they doing podcasts, sitting in a studio or talking to each other on a mic? Like that was not even needed because we have telepathy now. I can just think and have a conversation with Riza and that's it. Fascinating. Such a fascinating world we live in. Dr. Riza Kadilar (41:20.484) Yeah, that's true, but at same time it really makes sense because we are a human being too. Not money making, but meaning making. We aim, we struggle to make sense making and that was the case. You there are some discoveries, 10,000 before Christ, real before Christ, okay, 10,000 before. And you see temples or whatever from that era, people were looking, answer for some questions and that will continue. We find answers to some questions. Utkarsh Narang (41:23.648) It does. It does. Utkarsh Narang (41:29.197) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (41:37.986) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (41:43.054) Yeah. Dr. Riza Kadilar (41:49.762) and we are so great as humanity, we create new questions. We sort out things, we build stuff, then we destroy them and we create again even better world. So there's a continuous destruction and creation going on and I love it. So that's why whatever we do, it's very meaningful because I wake up, you know, let me tell you, your podcast, this podcast is so meaningful. I wouldn't really wake up with full energy this morning. So I would be still in bed. Utkarsh Narang (41:53.486) Alright. Utkarsh Narang (42:06.636) Yeah. Dr. Riza Kadilar (42:18.576) complaining about how tired I am, whatever, the late night and then the football match. We had a football match, important football match last night, Champions League and everything. But here I am, it's meaningful. And at the end of the day, think about one perspective. I think you are maybe the same. None of us, we read about the Spanish flu in our schooling. Did you? Utkarsh Narang (42:18.86) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (42:42.51) Correct. No, not at all. Nobody told me. Dr. Riza Kadilar (42:44.472) Nobody told me. We talked, we learned so much about world war, the destructions, blah, blah. And then they told us that more people were killed because of a flu than the biggest war in history, whatever. Humanity tend to erase things, you know. That's why I don't really believe that they will remember anything about the era where I lived. And I'm happy. Even COVID will not be remembered at all. So that's perfectly fine. Utkarsh Narang (42:56.856) Yeah. Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (43:05.515) I agree. I love it. Dr. Riza Kadilar (43:11.61) So I don't want to be living in an era where people don't forget. These are the worst times. It's good to live in ordinary times. Utkarsh Narang (43:15.48) Yeah. Yeah. Love it. So cool. I love everything that we're talking about. then the final thought before I move to my final question. In Hindu spirituality, there are these three gods who we classify as like the top three. And I'm not trying to butcher this, but I'm trying to share it in the most precise manner that I understand it. And the three gods, one of them is known as the destroyer. The other one is the creator. And then the third one is the preserver. And they say it's the... the three part framework of these three that sustains the galaxies and the universe and whatever there is. But yeah, I loved this conversation early morning. I think it's a perfect conversation to have at this time. And as we now get into the final question, Resam, we spoke about that eight-year-old, the eight-year-old you. Now I want you to go a few decades, 23 years in the future, because now I know you're 57. So 23 years into the future, your 80-year-old self. 80. That 80 year old self comes to you right now and brings an advice to you from the future. What would be the advice that he'll give you? Dr. Riza Kadilar (44:36.654) I think I'd like him to tell me, it doesn't matter. I still take lots of things in my life. For example, financial freedom. I'm very much kind of concerned about the future. I have my fears, I have my kind of limitations and everything. Maybe I'd like him to tell me that it doesn't matter. I think that that will be the biggest advice. I need to hear from someone reliable, okay? So I know I can't say it to myself, but it's not convincing enough. Who am I to tell me, you know, it doesn't matter. But if someone like this, in the 23, whatever 27 years in the future to go back to tell me, you know, enjoy, do whatever you do, do more, but don't, don't, don't really. Yeah, it doesn't matter. So just do as you like to do. Utkarsh Narang (45:17.986) Yeah. Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (45:23.362) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (45:39.842) Now that's recorded. That's part of the podcast. So every time you want to hear this again, Riza, you can come back to the podcast and listen to your 80 year old self telling you it doesn't matter. doesn't matter. Thank you for that wonderful conversation to everyone who's listening to us 50 minutes into the conversation. We'll put all the links to where you can find Riza's book in the show notes. Go find him on LinkedIn wherever you can and connect with him because I think we've had a beautiful conversation today. And Dr. Riza Kadilar (45:49.722) Thank you. Thank you. Dr. Riza Kadilar (46:06.064) you Utkarsh Narang (46:08.61) We listen to 80 year old Riza's advice and recommendation to us. Live the way you want to live right now because this is the only moment you have. You never know when the destroyer might want to destroy what you are building right now, including your life. So it doesn't matter. Think of your creations. Who are you to create versus you're creating yourself and everything that you're doing right now so beautifully. Accept your biases and embrace them fully. Dr. Riza Kadilar (46:28.1) Thank you. Utkarsh Narang (46:38.734) but take informed decisions. think that's what's important. We're all in a yin and yang situation. It continues and these biases have helped us prosper. So we don't have to ignore them, but we have to co-create with our differences. It is a dedicated effort and I hope all of us do that. To all the Gen Zs who listening, and I truly believe that you're gonna redefine, redesign work for us and we will be proud of what you do. And 300 years later, when you will be reflecting back to this moment, you will be like, what the? Sorry, what the F was wrong with this generation. And finally... Utkarsh Narang (47:15.554) The algorithms are trying to train you and trying to make you do certain things. Ignore them for a moment. Maybe what I tell Riza to my kids is go to your YouTube, go to your Instagrams and search something that is completely contradictory to what you've been looking at over the last one week. And that will trigger the algorithm to show you something that maybe will be useful for you. Any final thoughts before we close the conversation? Dr. Riza Kadilar (47:42.618) I totally enjoyed it and thank you for summarizing in such a nice way. I will listen to it again because I think I learned a lot. I went through different things and and everything. So thank you very much for this opportunity. Utkarsh Narang (47:57.976) Thank you for being here and igniting these neurons to everyone who is on a podcast platform, shared with others, we need it. And if you're on YouTube still listening, that means it was worth your while. So why don't you leave a comment because we want to see that you're here. This is Rizan Utkarsh signing off.