Utkarsh Narang (00:05.771) We're taught to fear anger, hide anger, suppress it. But my guest today, Dr. Mitch Abrams, is that the right way to pronounce your last name? Abrams, so I'll start again. Dr. Mitch Abrams (00:14.688) In groups. Yes, that's okay. Utkarsh Narang (00:19.391) We are taught to fear anger, hide anger, suppress it, don't release it to the world, keep it inside. But my guest today, Dr. Mitch, is a psychologist who helps athletes, leaders and everyday human beings understand how to use this force, this brutal force of anger, and don't look at it as an enemy, but look at it as a flame that can fuel greatness. Today we'll explore the fire of anger without letting it burn you. Welcome to the IgnitedNeurons podcast, Dr. Mitch, looking forward to this conversation. Dr. Mitch Abrams (00:49.656) Thank you so much for having me. I think a lot of people are going to relate to what we're talking Utkarsh Narang (00:55.919) I think so because it's such a universal emotion anger, right? Like everyone has it, but sometimes we know, sometimes we don't how to express it. But, and we'll come to the anger, but the norm at the IgnitedNeurons podcast is that we start deep within who Dr. Mitch is. And so the first question that I begin with is that if that eight year old Mitch, wherever that eight year old little kid, little boy, wherever that kid was growing up, if that kid comes and meets you right now, What kind of a conversation would emerge between the two of you? Dr. Mitch Abrams (01:30.572) Well, I think I would say, kid, it's gonna turn out all right. I was a pretty angry kid. Poor kid in a poor neighborhood. But I was lucky in that my parents were wonderful. They were very loving, very doting. They absolutely fueled me with confidence so I would go out and take on the world. Utkarsh Narang (01:34.251) Hmm. Dr. Mitch Abrams (01:59.842) And when I fell flat on my face, they brushed me off and send me back out. So this actually was great, but horrible at the same time because I was angry about being poor, but I couldn't be angry at the people that were responsible for me being poor because they made me rich in so many emotional ways. And so the eight-year-old kid was focused on trying to get good grades, do well with sports. and figure out how the hell to get out of the hood. And where I'm sitting right now, I'm very happy to say I'm doing all right. And that's a result of a lot of learning the hard way, making a lot of mistakes, some lucky meeting of people along the way. But I would not have imagined when I was eight years old that I'd wind up where I am right now. But it's also very hard. a great question that you're asking because I'm talking to an eight-year-old ignoring how an eight-year-old sees the world. Like, I knew I was an angry kid, but I wasn't thinking about what my life was gonna be like when I was 50 either. So it's an interesting perspective question. Utkarsh Narang (03:14.763) you Utkarsh Narang (03:19.563) And it's such a paradox because the first thing that you said, hey kid, it'll turn out all right. I just like feel like, and this is like such a strong nudge that I cannot repress this nudge, but I feel like shouting out to all the parents right now and letting them know and including myself, I have two boys, Mitch who are 15 and 11. Some days I feel like my 11 year old, if he's going through something, my 15 year old, how would that impact his upbringing, his life, his whatever. bloody works out. Parents all across the world chill out. You're doing a good job. Just keep growing, keep learning. And I think that's important. Dr. Mitch Abrams (03:55.192) Yes. Dr. Mitch Abrams (03:58.914) Well, look, the people that are worried that they're not doing a good job are the ones that are doing a good job. The ones that are not doing a good job are not worried about. Utkarsh Narang (04:07.13) Ooh, I love that. I love that. That's such a good thought. What do you spoke about? Dr. Mitch Abrams (04:12.46) Of course, you have to be careful because then you can spiral into anxious parents. So if I'm, you know, it's like I'll have a mom come with their son that's struggling with something and she'll just say, I just worry so much. And I'm like, you're a mom. I'm not going to ask you not to worry. That's like asking you not to breathe. Right? So, you know, so it's a matter of having a balance of appropriate concern, but also realize the fact that you're concerned already means you're on top of issues and things are going to be all right. Utkarsh Narang (04:31.21) you Utkarsh Narang (04:41.796) Love that. You're a mom. How can you not be anxious? Love that. boy. boy. But anger. mean, you're saying that as a an eight year old, you were you were angry. But what kind of what is that? What is that moment? Because I think everyone has like a tipping point in their life where they find what their life's calling is or we can like what made you delve so deep into anger as an emotion? Dr. Mitch Abrams (04:45.294) Right, everything else! Dr. Mitch Abrams (05:11.362) It was a series of events actually, because I was not aware that my parents were aware of how angry I was because I was achieving pretty well. was getting good grades. was identified as, you know, potentially a talented intellectual kid. I was doing well in sports and I was about I tell the story over and over again. I had to be about 14 years old at the time. And I was raging in my apartment, in my room about something. What could a 14 year old boy be raging at? Probably about a girl that wasn't interested in me or something. Anyway, you can't really rage without music, right? So the music is blaring and the bass is heavy and I'm just kind of looking out my window and I have one of these. metal chairs in front of me like now you only see in professional wrestling but I have one of these metal chairs in front of me and I didn't realize my mom opened the door and she called my name and completely startled me and I ripped the chair in half and it was the first and only time I ever saw my mom scared. My mom died a long time ago now and even as she was fighting cancer she was she never To me, she never looked afraid. In that moment, she was terrified. It was the only time I ever saw her scared. And she said to me, she said, Mitch, you better get that shit under control or it's gonna ruin your life. That was the first time someone out loud said, you have some anger issues and it can ruin your life. Okay. Interesting. 14 years old. Then I start to realize that I grew up in a neighborhood where there's a lot of angry kids, a lot of violent kids. and we played sports and we put it into sports and it did great for us. Then I started to wonder why so many kids in the neighborhood wound up dead or in jail instead of in college playing sports. And a lot of that was because they couldn't control their emotions real well. No one really talked about it. There was also the attraction of quick money by joining gangs and all the rest of that. But there was just this sense of tragic underachievement. Then I'm going to Brooklyn College at the time. Dr. Mitch Abrams (07:32.43) and I'm working at a health and fitness club, a gym. And the staff starts competing with one another in weightlifting competitions. And I'm lifting more than anyone else. Like a 17 year old kid, this is the era of when steroids are starting to really hit. And I'm throwing up some pretty serious iron and they're like, how are you doing that? And I'm like, I don't know, I'm just getting pissed. Then my sister died. If I wasn't angry before, then I got really angry at the world. And I could summon images of my sister dead after she passed away. And I would convince myself that if somehow I lifted this, she would come back to life. Magical thinking. Man, when I had that adrenaline going through my body, I was able to do shit that I couldn't do otherwise. Similar to the stories of A mom when a kid is stuck underneath a car just picks it up like no big deal. This was the first time I realized very consciously how powerful anger could be if we harness it. But there's this tipping point because everyone's had, I mean, when people get angry and they're in a rage, it feels good. It feels really good to feel that powerful. But we also realize it's dangerous. You know, there's a reason why there's only one letter difference between anger and danger. That D stands for discipline, right? And so if we cannot prevent ourselves from going over that red line, our brain processes turn off. cognitive processing speed, decision-making, problem-solving, our ability to synthesize the arena and make decisions. All of that goes into crapper at very high levels of anger. So I started to realize even before I got to graduate school that anger, if you could befriend it and harness it, you could get shit done that you could never get done otherwise. But if you don't, as my mother warned me, Dr. Mitch Abrams (09:45.206) You will ruin your life. So it wasn't and I and I've come to over the years come to appreciate that anger is like a weapon. It's like a knife. It's like a gun. You could be trained to become proficient with it. Yes, you could do damage with it, but you could also use it for good reasonable safe things. And so it's not an emotion to get rid of. It's an emotion to befriend. I mean, look, it's going to be there anyway, so you might as well get good at it. And then you could use it for great things. And then when I went to graduate school, it was about figuring out how to apply what I'm talking about to a formal intervention practice. Dr. Mitch Abrams (10:29.87) Then the rest is history. mean, there was so many different times in my career that there were forks in the road. Similar to the same way as there were forks in the road, I easily could have wound up in prison instead of in graduate school. But I found good mentors who supported me and encouraged me. I was working at Coney Island Hospital and they said, I understand you know something about anger. I was presenting at a national conference. I said, yeah. And they said, well, would you want to come work in prison? I said, absolutely not. I said, I'll try it for six months. If I don't like it, I'll leave. I've been there for 26 years. And that's existing while I also have a private practice and I'm working with high power executives and pro athletes and surgeons. And I've been very fortunate to be around people that are way smarter than me. And I'm talking about inmates right now usually. Utkarsh Narang (11:16.778) Mm. Utkarsh Narang (11:27.69) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (11:32.734) Yeah. Dr. Mitch Abrams (11:33.378) But basically just so many people that gave me these stories and perspectives that flew in the face of what everyone talks about all the time when they're talking about anger. Utkarsh Narang (11:48.843) I love this sharing, right? And that the word that you frame like anger and danger, oh, it landed so beautifully. But here's the challenge, right? And I want to start with this concept because anyone who's listening to us right now in our age groups, like 25 to maybe 45, 50, society has looked at anger as a dangerous thing, as something that is not constructive at all. It treats us as something that you need to eliminate. anger instead of understand it. Why is that? Dr. Mitch Abrams (12:23.982) Because most psychologists are not as smart as they think they are. I mean, look, the positive psychology movement, which started in the 70s into the 80s, was very well intended. And there were certain things that the positive psychology movement did that were brilliant. The first premises of the positive psychology movement was that everybody, no matter who they are, has strengths. And if we can... Utkarsh Narang (12:29.68) I that answer. Dr. Mitch Abrams (12:54.264) fan the flames of them and build them up. Even those that feel like they have nothing can become powerful. Absolutely true. I embrace it all the time. But they also started talking about trying to increase the frequency of positive emotions and decrease the experience of negative emotions. Newsflash. There ain't no damn thing as a bad emotion. It's not good or bad. They're all part of the human experience. The question is how much for the job at hand. And so that led to this belief that we should be getting rid of anger. Now, the irony of that is that when you say, all right, you need to get rid of anger, what does that lead people to do? All of a sudden the world is easy and nothing pisses you off? No, you start learning, you're not supposed to be angry. So you suppress it and you compress the spring. more and more and more and now you're walking around with a lot of stress. You think that's good for your health? It's not. We know internalized anger causes irritable bowel syndrome, coronary problems, high blood pressure. It causes every problem under the sun. So, okay, we don't want people to be acting out in an angry, violent way. No problem. That's not the same thing as don't be angry. And that's what it turned into. And I think that the greatest shame of all of this is shame. There's no emotion that people are more ashamed of than anger, except maybe shame itself. And this is a major societal failing. And if there's one thing that we walk away from this conversation is do not be ashamed to be angry. Utkarsh Narang (14:21.322) you Dr. Mitch Abrams (14:45.332) Assess your anger and determine whether or not there's a good reason to be angry which there almost always is and How much anger is gonna help me do what I want to do versus sabotage it and I don't think there's anything that's been more consistently motivating to people in life Than their anger. I mean think about your life think about how many times someone said You can't do that, man. You you're just stupid. You're not talented enough. Whatever and what's the response? You get insulted and the response is, yeah, fuck you, watch me. That's gotten a lot of shit done over the course of history. We use that anger for motivation and it's a very healthy thing to do. So we have this dichotomy that everyone's using anger and no one's allowed to talk about it. So they have to lie and say, they're not angry. That's why the title of my book is, I'm not fucking angry. How many times people come in here and say, hey, what's the matter? Why are you so angry? I'm not effing angry. Utkarsh Narang (15:24.069) I agree. Utkarsh Narang (15:40.138) Hmm. Dr. Mitch Abrams (15:44.994) Well, you're yelling at me. It sounds like you're a little bit. And then they say, well, it's because of this, it's because of this, it's because of this. And some of my sponsors, so you are angry. Good for you. And it sounds reasonable that you're angry. Now that we can own it, what are we going to do about Utkarsh Narang (16:04.562) It's such a cycle of unlearning and relearning and then kind of just changing this relationship. And I love how you spoke about it. It's almost like, and I talk about this thing sometimes where there's this over toxicity of positivity also, right? Where you can only have a limit to that. You cannot be like, you're fucking dying and you say, everything's okay. It's not, I'm dying. I'm on a ventilator. And I think that's what... Dr. Mitch Abrams (16:27.704) Yes. Utkarsh Narang (16:32.638) this movement and the world has been telling us think positive, think positive. What the hell does think positive mean? I'm not in a positive frame of mind right now. And then what that means. Dr. Mitch Abrams (16:40.824) And you're allowed to not be in a positive state of mind. I mean, it is so prolific and ubiquitous that we've decided you cannot have sugar anymore. We're going to give you artificial sweeteners and ignore the fact that the artificial sweeteners will kill you. That's what it's like. Utkarsh Narang (16:44.35) Absolutely. Utkarsh Narang (17:01.232) It's fascinating. It's fascinating. And then what he spoke about, I think the impact that anger can have on the body, like physiologically, it's studied, research proven. So there's no question about that. But what you're saying is that See anger can be used in the right frame, right? But it does not come naturally to the human mind. The human mind naturally feels like that anger is not constructive. Dr. Mitch Abrams (17:30.094) No, I think I disagree. I think it does come naturally to the human mind, but society, especially Western society, tells you not to. And so it becomes a socio-cultural pressure to stop you from using it. You see, people for a long time were so uncomfortable with owning anger that they started saying, anger is a secondary emotion. Utkarsh Narang (17:34.09) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (17:44.329) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (17:55.274) Hmm. Dr. Mitch Abrams (17:56.438) And it can be. There are times that we're angry about stuff and it's really the externalization of sadness or that. So yes, it's certainly the case. It can be. But of our emotions, fear and anger are absolutely hardwired into our sympathetic nervous system. In fact, they're physiologically identical. The only thing that's different is your thoughts and behavior. So for fear, you're running away. For anger, you're attacking. But your body works exactly the same way. So So I think that a lot of this is kind of like a parlor game. It's smoke and mirrors. It's not that our body doesn't know how to do it. We do know how to do it. We stopped allowing ourselves to. There's a difference. Utkarsh Narang (18:38.57) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (18:42.142) Yeah, it's the wiring that's happened over years that makes us call anger bad. Dr. Mitch Abrams (18:48.514) Yes, because we think civilized people should not be angry. We tend to think about, if you think about people that have anger problems, very often we describe them as primitive, which is the opposite of civilized. We're civilized people, we don't get angry. No, that's not true. Civilized people are able to recognize their emotions and are very strategic about how they use their emotions. Look. There are times that I will simulate angry behavior when I'm not angry in order to achieve a certain end. Utkarsh Narang (19:21.182) Yeah, and a couple of other thoughts that are coming is like anger makes you dangerous. makes you, no one will like you. You will not achieve what you... So all these negative connotations are telling us that anger is bad. Dr. Mitch Abrams (19:34.388) Or maybe if you act angry, you don't have to be violent. People become scared of you and there's some value to that sometimes too. The toughest guy in prison doesn't have to fight. Real power is when people are afraid of you without you lifting a finger. Real influence is when you're able to get people to do things without threatening them. The most successful people in life are able to wield their power and authority without explosion. People want to do things for you, not because they're afraid of you. So the best leaders are the ones that are not popping off. Utkarsh Narang (19:48.148) Tell me more. Dr. Mitch Abrams (20:13.911) all the time. Utkarsh Narang (20:18.516) So where do we go from here? Because this relationship has made people say, I'm not fucking angry. And that's what we think is the right thing to do. And that's what society has taught us. And that's where we are. So where do we go from here? Dr. Mitch Abrams (20:32.91) It starts with normalization and validation and say, listen, you know something? There are a lot of times that we've got, there's a lot of times that we have received well-intended information that turned out to be wrong. I don't think that the people that were talking about positive psychology were trying to turn us emotionally upside down, but I think that we are at an all time low. when it comes to emotional intelligence and strength. We are incredibly fragile now. And if you think about it, the positive psychology movement, one of the things that they hoped for was a less violent society with people with higher self-esteem. Of course, is that what you see? Do you see a peaceful society? Do you see a lot of people with high self-esteem or do you see people... with their insecurities dripping off of them all of the time, very, very fragile, because they sold a product that was not true. It wasn't true. Anger is not bad. In fact, I think that the first way you help people build self-esteem is you normalize low self-esteem. Of course you have insecurities. We all do. I only have one of them. Sorry, guys, I'm not gonna tell you what it is. But my wife would know. that that one insecurity has 15 chapters and each chapter has 100 pages in it. So insecurities are an accepted part of life. It's not a good survival strategy to advertise them. So the most secure people are the ones that know their insecurities and keep them well-hidden. But because we're not allowed to be honest about that, we puff out our chests. And by the way, that I think is the biggest reason why we see this toxic masculinity in boys. They're insecure and they're not allowed to own it. So they pose and they puff up their chests and everyone's like, you have a joke. What are you talking about? I'm just acting like dad because dad is not honest about how he feels. So why are women more socially intelligent than men? My argument is that society expects them to have low self-esteem. They give Dr. Mitch Abrams (22:50.484) Images of what they're supposed to look like and you're supposed to accept the fact that you're not good at science and math and every guy knows women that are better at science and math than them, right? You're supposed to be satisfied with 70 cents on the dollar So girls have all of this bombarding them with these expectations And then when it comes to playtime you give them dolls and what do they do? They immediately go into role-playing mode. This is the mommy. This is the daddy. This is the doctor. This is the patient girls start studying social interactions from the time they're toddlers. That helps them become much more socially facile, much more intelligent about how they feel, how they detect how other people feel and how they navigate things. You give boys dolls, which we call action figures, and they throw them against the wall. So I think that the secret sauce is one of the ways that girls respond to these expectations of low self-esteem is they become more socially competent. The way boys struggle with low self-esteem, and by the way I think why boys struggle with self-esteem issues more than girls is because they have them not because society expects them but because everybody has them but they're not allowed to have them. So they hide them and they never deal with them. It's the same thing with your anger. You have low self-esteem, big surprise, we all have weaknesses. You have difficulty controlling your emotions, including your anger. Big surprise. A lot of people aren't good at this. So the answer is we normalize the emotions, we give people a break, we tell them to start being kind to themselves, they're doing the best they can and learn how to own their humanness, develop an honest relationship with their emotions and become better at being able to modulate their emotions, especially their anger, to the amount that will help them. That's why I talk about adjusting the flame. It's not on or off, it's how much is gonna help you. So we want them to learn how to adjust that dial. Utkarsh Narang (24:52.383) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (25:00.714) I want to come to this dial and speak more about this, but just this, this idea when you said own your humaneness, how would you define that? Because you work with, with such a wide array of people, right? From athletes to people who are in prison to, yeah. So how do you define owning your, your humaneness? Dr. Mitch Abrams (25:20.898) The answer might not satisfy you because it's going to be anti-climactic, but it is probably the most common question that people ask me is, I don't understand. You work with inmates and you work with professional athletes. What could they possibly have in common? They're human. People forget that. Now, athletes have to perform at a very high level and if they can't modulate their emotions, they're probably not gonna succeed very well. So they have to be really, really good at it. And a lot of people in prison have had times that their poor emotion regulation skills has contributed them to being there. But the point is, that, and we see this in parenting as well, it's not a good parenting practice to say to a kid, you're a bad kid. That's a character assassination. It's much more effective to say, listen, I love you, but that's not acceptable. You cannot do that. And if you do that, I will punish you. That's completely different. The truth is, is that most of the people in prison are not bad people. Most of them will get out. Most of them, decent people who have done some horribly stupid things. Are there some psychopaths in there? Absolutely. Are there people that have done really bad things? Sometimes it's not even their own fault. They grew up in an environment that that's the way to do things. But I think that while everybody gets so preachy and ultra liberal with I love you, you love me, but in reality people are continuing to polarize all the time. Let's get back down to basic. Look here, if you and I are standing next to each other, I might say, well, you're wearing glasses and I'm not. Well, I actually had LASIK, I used to wear glasses too. Or your skin's a little darker than mine and therefore you're this and I'm that. The truth is, genetically, we are almost identical, yet we wanna focus on the differences. So I think that the way we own our humanity is first we have to get better at being aware of ourselves, increasing our self-awareness. Dr. Mitch Abrams (27:32.992) accepting ourselves for who we are with our strengths and weaknesses and then trying to be the better version of ourselves, right? Real competition is being better than you were yesterday. But when you do that, then you can also start to appreciate, can value the humanness of others. It's not a competition all the time. I can, and this is one of the things, I caught a fair amount of slack. after Charlie Kirk was murdered, and I was saying how, I saw it as a tragedy that a man was murdered in front of his kids. And, people then accused me of being a white supremacist or a racist because I thought it was bad that a man was killed in front of his kids. And I appreciated his attempts to engage people in dialogue about controversial things. Now, I can tell you, I did not agree with a lot of the things that Charlie Kirk said. Very Christian ideology, I'm Jewish, there was fundamental things I didn't agree with. But people then went to, I must be a racist because I thought dialogue was useful. Imagine this concept that I can disagree with you and not want you dead. What? Or I can love you and respect you and vehemently disagree with you on very basic issues. If you have someone in your life that's important to you, whether it's your spouse, or your mom or your dad or your kid, and you don't have, and you see everything exactly the same, you are unaware of what they really think, right? Utkarsh Narang (29:29.034) 100 % or lying. Dr. Mitch Abrams (29:32.46) And that's fine. Dr. Mitch Abrams (29:36.534) us disagreeing and having different views of things. We don't tolerate it very well. It becomes like an assault on the integrity of our being instead of saying, you know what? Hey, I don't see it the same way as you. That's fine. And I think, you know, of course I see things, a lot of things through an anger lens, but I think at the core of it, it has to do with our inability and unwillingness to own our anger. And so it winds up coming out disproportionately and often in the wrong way, at the wrong person, at the wrong time. And if we can become more honest with our emotions and manage them better, we're going to find that we can use it very effectively. and have left less times that we regret how we act out. Utkarsh Narang (30:34.314) This idea be honest with your emotions, which I'm skeptical because the more people I talk to I'm sensing and I think, yeah, I think I need your opinion. Like how do you be honest with your emotions because people are not ready for it yet is what my understanding currently is. Dr. Mitch Abrams (30:52.874) Dr. Mitch Abrams (30:56.812) Yes, you're right. Dr. Mitch Abrams (31:02.304) I think that's why I felt compelled to write this book. I think that people are largely not ready, but they're not gonna get ready by no one saying it. And I think that there's too many people out there squawking nonsense and continuing to throw cement. The body's buried, there's dirt on top of the body in the casket, but we need to cement over it and put a building on top of it. It's all bullshit. It's all bullshit. look, I know, look, I very much appreciate this opportunity to have this conversation with you because my style. of talking is not for everyone. But I think everybody needs to hear what I have to say, even if I'm not the person saying it. That people who have told you that feeling this way is wrong are just full of shit. They're trying to control you and they're trying to suppress you. And it's not good. And there's going to be some natural hesitance to start to be honest with the way you feel. Because when you're suppressed so much, there's this fear. that if I let it go, I'm going to murder someone. Not likely, not likely. It sounds like such an anticlimactic therapeutic exercise, but you see this with people with anxiety disorders, right? It's like, I have to go to the doctor. Why? You went to the doctor last week and your checkup was fine. No, no, no, this time I'm having a heart attack. Okay, you've gone to the emergency room 10 times. EKGA is normal. Dr. Mitch Abrams (32:47.692) I guess theoretically it's possible you could drop dead tomorrow. But the logical answer is you're going to be okay. You can be anxious and still functional. You can feel the feeling and not be completely consumed by it. And I think it's this prohibition on feelings that stop people from mastering it. So yes, it will be uncomfortable and unnatural for people at first. Utkarsh Narang (33:09.214) Yeah. Dr. Mitch Abrams (33:14.222) And yes, there will be some people that go to hell in the hand basket because they've been waiting for Abrams to say it's okay for them to, to shot, you know, shot, you know, say whatever they want to say. And discretion is important, but this over controlled suppression is far more dangerous. Utkarsh Narang (33:28.522) you Utkarsh Narang (33:32.744) Yeah. What's the difference? And I'm still thinking about emotional modulation because I want to speak about that at some point. But what's the difference between someone who's able to use anger to rise and someone who just collapses under the pressure? Dr. Mitch Abrams (33:49.986) belief. Belief, people think that they can't be successful when they're embracing their emotions. So they make it so. It's very empowering when you say to people, yes, too much emotion can interfere with performance. That's true. No emotion is also going to interfere with performance. In fact, we know there's a curvilinear relationship, right? Look, this is the reason why Starbucks, hey guys, wait to make a billion dollars. The reason why Starbucks is a multi-billion dollar industry, caffeine, is because everyone knows they don't do their best work when they're asleep. Right? So emotions, as you become more aroused, your performance goes up. And there's a place that it starts to go down. But because too much emotion can lead to poor performance doesn't mean no emotion is better. It's illogical. So, you know, I have colleagues that are working in the field and they don't talk about anger. They tend to talk about fear and anxiety much more. But the truth is, is that you have to become better at owning the emotions and harnessing it. mean, look, if you don't know how to harness your emotions, you are leaving money on the table. You got like, you want to talk about sustainable energy? Utkarsh Narang (34:51.1) It is. Utkarsh Narang (35:04.906) you Dr. Mitch Abrams (35:17.902) You have a nuclear reactor in your belly that can continue to get you going. mean, look, we know moderate levels of anger make you stronger, faster, give you more stamina. How many times have you had a project that you were working on and you were like, man, I just want to go to sleep. And by the way, sleep probably would be a good idea. Not enough people do it. But you in the back of your head hear someone in in upper leadership doubting your ability to deliver. And you're like, screw that. I'm going to keep going. I'm going to get this done. and we plow through and we do amazing things. Why can't we just be honest about it? Utkarsh Narang (35:52.17) Love that. And I think that curve is called Yerkes-Dodson curve, if I remember correctly. Dr. Mitch Abrams (35:57.902) Yerkes, very good. So this is, I'm going to take a shot at my gang now, right? Yerkes-Dodd said law, right? Been around for decades. Sports psychology gets a hold of it and calls it the inverted U hypothesis. Now, let me tell you, anybody who understands scientific method, a hypothesis is a step down from a law. It was already a law and they turned it into a hypothesis. Not our best work. But, but. Utkarsh Narang (36:02.377) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (36:11.85) Mm. Dr. Mitch Abrams (36:25.762) There's more to it though, because the Yerkesdads and Laun... So inside this area, right, we know that it's low, very low arousal, poor performance, very high arousal, poor performance. So in the middle, there's this zone of optimal functioning. But that zone of optimal functioning is not perfect, meaning that it's different depending on the task and it's different depending on the person. So as an example, let's say you're a golfer. Utkarsh Narang (36:41.706) you Dr. Mitch Abrams (36:56.376) Higher levels of anger or arousal are not going to help you when you're putting. But might put a couple of more yards on your drive when you're driving. So the task at hand, a task that requires less thinking and more power, you can do more anger. The more cognitive processes that are involved, the more you're not going to want to be too close to that right side. But we also know that different people experience anger differently. That's one of the things that I found out later into my career. I realized that one of the good and the bad of being angry as a kid is that I have a strange relationship with anger. It's a buddy of mine now. You know, it's like, an old friend, you know, welcome to dinner, right? Hopefully don't break the dishes. But because of that, it's not that I don't have a point that I go over the cliff. My kids know that. But the issue is that I can go longer. I can function at higher levels of anger than most people. But I still have that cliff and once I go over the cliff, I struggle. And the other thing that we need to appreciate is that not everybody approaches the cliff at the same rate. Some people are kind of like a slow boil and other people are like, man, you push that button, there goes the explosion threshold. And so the theory behind the Erke's Dotson law is to me absolute, but. Utkarsh Narang (38:27.498) you Dr. Mitch Abrams (38:28.29) the devil's in the details. Utkarsh Narang (38:30.506) Yeah, yeah, I love that. And how you put it in a way where every emotion has a role in place, in the place that you're in, and also it's very contextualized based on the human being you are. And so all those nuances are super important. Dr. Mitch Abrams (38:45.196) And so context driven as well. mean, if you're in the boardroom and you're trying to sell a product, right? You're going to, this is what our next thing out and you're about to pee your pants. That nervousness is not going to help yourself. Right? Similarly, if you're looking to go in a different direction and you're not sure that the board is on board, you need to be able to communicate confidence. Utkarsh Narang (38:51.752) Yeah. Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (38:58.996) Correct. Correct. Utkarsh Narang (39:10.634) Hmm. Dr. Mitch Abrams (39:15.52) and certainty, not ignoring doubt, but that does not get communicated when you're emotionally unstable. But let me just say one thing about this because I think that it might, some people in the audience might have conversations and questions about whether or not males and females experience anger differently. Two things, one, increasingly I've come to the conclusion that there is no difference. Men and women experience anger nearly identically. And the evidence for that is the androgenization of male-type behaviors. You see it in sports. Sports was probably the first place that when women started acting like men, people were like, all right, fine. I mean, I would argue that when women start acting like men, that's not an upgrade, but... There's also something to be said that when men are playing sports, they're really, it's the only arena that you're allowed to emote primitively and be encouraged for it, not be punished until you go over the line and get a penalty. And so I think that there's a lot of sociocultural press that's led to women acting on their anger differently than men. Women used to be more socialized to internalize. Men were socialized to externalize. but we know that gang recruitment on the female side is spiking. In the old days, if there was a woman there when things were out of control, that would simmer things down. Now they might be jumping it off. So I'm not so clear on this gender differentiation, but there is something I do want to say about men with anger, which is... Utkarsh Narang (40:54.922) Yeah. Dr. Mitch Abrams (41:02.402) We've been so concerned about the stoic man being this misogynistic perpetrator of domestic violence that we've tried to create this new masculinity of the ultimate sensitive man. If you ask women, they will tell you that they don't want the sensitive man all the time. They'd like a man that has the capacity to be sensitive. And that's an important lesson to take home. That yes, it is true that as men start to become more appreciative of social intelligence, then that means that you have to have a higher EQ, have to be more aware of how you feel, how people go. But let's not forget, If you're storming the beaches of Normandy, you don't want a sensitive man. You want someone who's going to go handle business. And I think that when we understand anger and masculinity, healthy masculinity is not, stoic man is bad, so get rid of that, become the emotionally sensitive man. No. I think healthy masculinity is recognizing that there's a time and a place for everything along that continuum. And healthy men are able to adjust their emotional sensitivity to what the situation calls for. You're dealing with your children, your wife is struggling with something, it's a time for nurturance, not cold disdain. I just want to watch TV and have a beer. But by the same token, if we're sending men out to battle, and by the way, women, same thing, you want stoic women the same way. There's a time and a place to be able to say, I need to keep my emotions in check, put them over here, because I got shit to do. And when we have the honesty about emotions existing on a continuum and that's okay, then we can then also allow people, especially men, to be more sensitive, but also realize there's a time and a way, time and a place for stoicism. Utkarsh Narang (43:09.078) I think thank you for bringing that up because and it's such a such an important point, right? That we have to learn to live on the spectrum. We cannot be like that. This is who I am. This is what I'm going to do. I'm not going to change because that's going to break your back is what I understand. And what you said, I think it's still it's the relationship with the emotion that you need to like all the time work on, strengthen, refine and then pick your pick your battles, pick your pick where you want to be on that that spectrum. But that flame that you spoke about and modulating that flame, someone listening to us, they're thinking, I can either mute it or I can get it to like blast those bass speakers and create a chaos. So how do you modulate that emotion? Dr. Mitch Abrams (43:51.33) Well, first off, you have to have a toolbox. And the truth is everybody has a toolbox. They just don't realize it. And in my book, I also offer more tools for the toolbox. So you know these things right here, right? These phones that everyone thinks is the bane of everyone's existence, right? And one of the reasons why we have such Utkarsh Narang (44:13.276) Ugh. Dr. Mitch Abrams (44:19.234) disdain for them is because people lose track of time and they don't care about relationships. Well, I would much rather somebody, a mom or a dad that's about to smack their kid because the kid is being mischievous to say, you know what? A lot of parents know about timeouts. They need to know about reverse timeouts. I need to step away right now because I'm too angry. Make sure the kids are taken care of. They go in the other room. They set. a timer on their phone for 10 minutes and they scroll nonsense. You know, the type of things that you chuckle to yourself. Dogs barking in a way that makes it sound like they're talking or mischievous cats that are knocking your wallets into the garbage can or the toilet. That's a distraction technique that people use. Music. Music soothes the savage beast, right? You put on a little smooth jazz. How don't you? I mean, you got to pick your battle. Going for a walk, exercising, journaling. Look, I teach diaphragmatic breathing. I teach imagery and visualization. Progressive muscle relaxation. These are all tools that could be added to the things that you already do to take your edge off. You just want to be First, you have to improve your early detection system, because most people don't realize they're over the line until they've already passed it. So you've got to learn how your body responds when you get angry early, and you need to be able to identify your triggers early. Because the earlier you can identify it, the quicker you can pull out your toolbox. And everybody already has those tools, they just don't use them. And by the way, Of course, I'm not, it's like the example I often give is I was working with a basketball player who was getting pissed off all the time and I said, listen, I'm not asking you to do yoga poses at the free throw line, right? I'm not asking you to take a nap. You're in the middle of competition. But I want you to have your skills so practiced that you can just turn it down a little bit. Like progressive muscle relaxation, which is a system where Dr. Mitch Abrams (46:36.386) You tighten muscles for a period of time intensely and afterwards the relaxation is proportionally great. And as you go through this body part by body part, you will learn as you become more proficient that people have different places that your stress sits. For me, it's my traps, the muscles that connect my, and I can be sitting here like this because I'm, I can roll my traps and relax them and I'll feel, a chogo down my body, and I will be on a scale of one to 100, if I was at a 90, I'm down to an 80. That's all you need. We don't need perfect relaxation. We just need to be able to adjust down a little bit to reengage our brain. Utkarsh Narang (47:12.778) You love that. Utkarsh Narang (47:21.458) is so simple. I love this. love, I love when there is something that's simple. Dr. Mitch Abrams (47:25.74) And you go, holy crap, this guy's brilliant. I mean, but if he's so brilliant, he's saying something so simple. It's right in front. Look, what I'm saying is not rocket science. In fact, what I'm doing is I'm getting into where your instincts and where your personal experience and knowledge is. You know what I'm saying is true, but people have told you you're not allowed to feel that way. Don't be angry. But I like being angry. I'd rather be angry than sad. Well. Be angry. But how angry do want to be and for how long? Because we got shit to do, you know? Utkarsh Narang (48:01.695) Yeah, exactly. And you know, it's the more you practice this skill, the better you get. It's like going to the gym. It's that easy. It's that easy. Love that. Dr. Mitch Abrams (48:10.69) Yes, and then people are surprised they haven't practiced their skills and then they need them and they don't work. And it must be because the skills are useless. No, it's because you haven't practiced them. Utkarsh Narang (48:20.052) Correct. Love that. This is so beautiful. And we've gone through such a journey on this conversation and I'm going to share that back with our listeners. But as we move forward, and thank you for all the insights, Dr. I love what we have spoken about. If we now go to that 80-year-old Mitch, the one in the future, and that Mitch comes back to you right now and has one piece of advice for you, what would that Mitch say? Dr. Mitch Abrams (48:51.694) should have spent more time with your kids. You know, the reason why now is called the present is because it's a gift. It is the only thing that we have any influence over. We can't change the past. I'm good at what I do, but I don't have a time machine. We can influence the future. Unfortunately, youth is often wasted on the young. I've done all right making money and I plan to continue to do so. But energy and time are the most valuable currencies that we have. I adore my kids and I try to spend as much time with them as I can and I'm very lucky that I have a wife who's a professional and also is the glue that makes sure that things don't drop. But as my kids are getting older, I'm also realizing there's never enough time. There's never enough time. And I think, I've had that conversation with the 80 year old guy and I've been trying to fix it over the last. five or ten years, because I realized, you know, while you're working, yes, you're supporting the family, you're doing good things, but you're not going to get another opportunity to see your kids' first football game. And so I think there's something grounding and humbling about the amount of time that we waste. Dr. Mitch Abrams (50:40.248) being pissed off. If you're angry and you're utilizing it to do good things, God bless you. But like, for example, my daughter has an unbelievable ability to let things roll off her back. I mean, don't get me wrong, she's an adolescent, so she gets pissy about things for reasons that I'll never understand. But she doesn't stay upset long. And I don't know where she got it from, because I'm definitely not that way, my wife's not that way. But it's such an amazing gift that she has. And when I asked her once why or how she does that, it was just so forward thinking. She said, I got places to go. I got things to do. I can't change what already happened. And I'm like, yeah, but what you did was wrong. You gotta be punished. And she goes, I can't change it. What do want me to do now? But she was so, so wise, always looking forward to where she wants to go. And I think that she somehow, either through the things that my wife and I taught her or just because of her own brilliance, has recognized the value of time. And how we manage our emotions also affects how we experience time. And so I see it as all together. Utkarsh Narang (52:00.073) What's her name? Would it be okay for you to Aviva! Dr. Mitch Abrams (52:02.93) Aviva? Aviva is 17 years old, going to be 25 in her own mind. One of the beauties of adolescence though is that she could be 27 one minute and seven the next. I mean, I'm very lucky. I have amazing kids. I could go on forever. In fact, I talk about my boys in the book as well. But it was just apropos that when you think about the 80 year old, Utkarsh Narang (52:20.522) Utkarsh Narang (52:25.992) Yeah. Yeah. Dr. Mitch Abrams (52:29.868) because she's approaching getting ready to go away to college is really profound. And the truth is, is that I've, I've missed almost nothing of my boys games and such. And I think it's because I learned, I learned the value of time. Utkarsh Narang (52:54.538) To everyone, I'm slightly emotional because I have two boys who are 15 and 11 and I love spending time with them. To everyone who's listening to us, about 55 minutes into the conversation. Before we go to the 80-year-old Dr. Mitch, let's hear Aviva's wisdom. You got places to go, keep looking forward. And then the 80-year-old Mitch tells us, spend more time with your kids and you can expand that to your loved ones. And I think that'll be beautiful. Dr. Mitch Abrams (53:22.189) much. Utkarsh Narang (53:24.264) Make sure that you remember that it takes only a small pause of identifying what's triggering you, how you're feeling about it, to then just breaking that cycle. Listen to some music, go for a walk, breathe, visualize, do whatever you have to, to bring down that energy and modulate the flame that's burning within you. Use it for the wise reasons. Remember that emotions are interesting and each one has their own place and you have your own relationship with them. And what you need is a belief. That belief that you can succeed by embracing these emotions. Remember, don't take disagreement as an assault on your being. It's not. It's just disagreement. Own your fucking humaneness. That's the best thing you can do. Whatever you do, just own it. And the starting point of talking about anger, anxiety, or whatever emotion you want to talk about is to normalize and rationalize them. It's okay. It's absolutely okay. It's important. It's necessary to be fucking angry because that's how things are. And the difference between anger and danger is D and D stands for discipline. And remember, as Dr. Mitch told his eight year old self, hey kid, it'll turn all right. You don't have to worry about it. Thank you, Dr. Mitch for this conversation. Truly appreciate your presence here today. Dr. Mitch Abrams (54:50.958) My pleasure. was a fun ride. Utkarsh Narang (54:52.362) It was, it was. To everyone who's listening on podcast platform or on YouTube, if you think this made sense, keep it to yourself until unless you know someone who will value this. Because this is not for everyone. This is for those who are ready to have these conversations. And if you have someone like that in your network, just send it to them. WhatsApp, email, whatever works for you. Just do it. And if you're on YouTube, put your name in the comments, put something in the comments because we want to listen to and see. what you're up to and what resonated with you the most. This is Utkarsh and Dr. Mitch signing off.