Utkarsh Narang (00:01.57) I think we've done about 14 episodes and this is the first time I actually have someone in the room who has a PhD. So this will be a intellectually stimulating in a different way episode because all the other guests have been super amazing and we have enjoyed those conversations. But today we'll go a little bit more deeper into the neuroscience, into the science of what it takes to change, to be the best selves that we want to be and see what emerges from the story for our guest today. Welcome Josh, how are you? Josh Davis (00:30.717) Hi, thank you. I'm doing very well. Great to see you. Great to be here. Utkarsh Narang (00:34.698) Absolutely. I'm looking forward to this conversation. And we've had many conversations in the past because you and I used to work together. But this is different setting. Josh Davis (00:43.111) I was just gonna ask, should we tell everybody that we know each other? Right, okay. Utkarsh Narang (00:46.506) Absolutely. Absolutely. It's all out there in the world. So Josh and I worked together at Mentora for a few years. think it was three or four years, Josh, till I left. like that. Awesome. Looking forward to this hour that we have together. Josh, the first question we kind of start this podcast to, to run the guests through the memory lanes of, of wherever you have been. If that eight year old Josh, that little boy growing up, if that Josh were to come to you right now. Josh Davis (00:55.251) like that, Utkarsh Narang (01:14.306) then you and he kind of face each other. What kind of a conversation do you think will emerge? Josh Davis (01:19.773) Well, I would be so curious to really try to understand how he's thinking and what the world is like for him right now. And I think I would be much less likely than ever before in my life to try to change him. I think it would just be about Utkarsh Narang (01:45.454) Mm. Josh Davis (01:48.149) you know, this amazing opportunity for me to, I guess I'd be approaching it as though I'm, you know, I'm in my own 50 year old consciousness, you know, but yeah, cause I, so many memories, you know, I want to know like, what was it that motivated me? Why did I do that? Why did I then leave and feel embarrassed afterwards? Why did I not do this? Why did I restrict myself from certain friendships? You know, why did I avoid developing in certain ways and, then spend a lot of time on other things, you know. So yeah, trying to unpack what's that, what is that collection of feelings and beliefs and mindset and all that, that was his. Utkarsh Narang (02:29.388) Yeah, that's interesting. So you use these words, curious and then mindset. I'm curious. What do you think is the, and maybe you can relate it to your story and your growing up and what was it about your growing up that made you choose the career, the path, the life that you've chosen for yourself. But what is it about those early years, maybe the first say 10 years of our life and how does that start to impact the long-term game? Josh Davis (02:57.865) Hmm, yeah, mean, there's, one thing that's challenging is that nobody will ever know for certain. And I really, I say that because I think it's actually unknowable, because there are too many variables. That said, there are certain things that seem to be the case across development, like for all kids, at least within a certain culture, maybe at age nine, you start to see some early signs of hormonal shifts, puberty's not happening, but you can expect there to be these sudden bouts of irritability, so there's certain things that are developmentally happening, on average, that most people are experiencing. We know that people are capable of much greater self-control as they get older, right? And that continues on into our, well, throughout life, actually. And some people have speculated that that's because the prefrontal cortex is continuing to change in quite meaningful ways well into the 20s, right? Although the behavior continues to change until throughout life. you know, the ability to control yourself. So there's gotta be a lot more to it than just the brain changing. But yeah, those early years. What I think it boils down to is we come to form certain fundamental beliefs about who we are, about how the world works, about what's expected of us, what are appropriate ways to motivate ourselves, what our responsibilities are. Like these are the things where I believe parents can really make a big difference, right? And whether we feel that the burden is on us versus the responsibility is on us or that we're protected, there's nuance to it, right? I think those are those things in those early years that are happening. And it's amazing, like we can really get to a point where people can think, for example, that they don't like learning. Utkarsh Narang (04:52.398) Hmm. Josh Davis (05:09.117) which is for most people, it's this delightful thing that they'll discover later in life, but they can get to that point because they've had so many associations with, you know, stop bothering me, you know, get that message at home, we're at school, right? Or saying, I'm really enjoying this, and other kids might tease them for it. There could be plenty of pressures there, and people can really come to honestly believe. Utkarsh Narang (05:22.894) you Josh Davis (05:40.169) that they have certain values and certain beliefs, even though all of that can change. So anyway, I don't know if that's where you were going with it, but that's to my mind, I think some of the useful things to think about. Utkarsh Narang (05:42.84) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (05:46.926) Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, the, the, the, the joy of this podcast is that we're not trying to go anywhere. we're just trying to have an open conversation, which I'll always try and assimilate and summarize and try and bring it to, our listeners, advantage, right? Because, and I always say this, Josh, that people should actually, they can listen to certain podcasts on, the go while they're in the gym, but this is not one of those, if they won't really Josh Davis (06:01.307) haha Great, I'm on board. Utkarsh Narang (06:22.028) get something out of this, they'll have to sit down with a diary because I have it in front of me. And that's the only way we'll, we'll, we'll get through this and get something out. So what you're saying is, and you know, I see this a lot, Josh, that these early mindsets that get formed in children. And I come from a culture India where when I was growing up, the only few professions you could have was being a doctor, being an engineer, being maybe a lawyer if your parents a little bit more advanced, but that's about it. And so I've seen. coaches who've done really well in life, who are now say at companies like Salesforce or Dropbox or the biggest tech companies of the world. And they still can't go and have a conversation with the manager because their parents said, do not raise your voice, do not conflict. If I'm saying something, that's it, you don't change. So how do you see that play out? How do you see that play out? Because There's no manual to parenting, right? There's no manual to leadership. So how does one grapple with these when their mindsets have been formed during that early age and now they're adults, 25, 30, 35, unable to change things. Josh Davis (07:28.277) Mm-hmm. Well, I mean, first of all, one thing that I like to do is I don't presume that they want to change or that it's best for them to change, right? So if it's somebody who is saying congruently that, this is something I really wanna change, it's getting in my way, I at a minimum wanna experiment with changing this, there's always some cost to a change, right? And so they've created this Utkarsh Narang (07:39.341) Hmm. Josh Davis (08:00.871) this ecosystem they live in where it's adaptive in certain ways. It maintains the balance and allows them to get a lot of what they want if they continue to act in this deferential way towards people who are higher up in whatever hierarchy that they've subscribed to. So first of all, there's that. I would want to explore that. But that's just one of many pieces. There's, this kind of comes back to the central thesis of my book, which I, will also, so, hi everyone, there's a book we're gonna chat about too. But, that, so change can happen to a much greater degree than I think most people realize. Even if it's something you've been wanting to change forever and you didn't change or that you thought you couldn't change or that you have been making progress on. No matter what it is, whatever that relationship, it can happen to a much greater degree than most people, I think, are aware of. And what's key is that it's different for each person, which does make it complex, and it doesn't mean that there's a one size fits all, but it does mean that there is a solution. It's different for each person, and so if you're the person guiding the change, either for yourself or someone else, then the most important thing you can do is to be searching for the difference that makes the difference for them. Utkarsh Narang (09:12.386) Hmm. Josh Davis (09:28.687) Is it that they have some way in which it's really serving them to behave in the old way? Well, maybe that works for them, but maybe there's a different way for them to get that need met that also allows them to change. If you don't address that, you're not gonna get the change. Maybe there's a belief in the way, some limiting belief that this isn't possible for me, or then I'd be a person I don't wanna be, or. I could never do that or I don't know how to do that or it would be risky or you know, it could be that maybe that it brings up certain feelings. there's just, there's so many different pieces that it could be. And so then kind of the, and of course in the book then it's, well how do you very quickly try to figure that out? How do you try to understand what is going on in that person's mind? How are they approaching the situation? Utkarsh Narang (10:16.728) Hmm. Josh Davis (10:23.093) And then what are some of the things that might actually be the difference that makes the difference for them? And you can get there, and you can get there quickly, often. And you never know, you can't ever promise it's going to be quick. But it tends to be a lot quicker than... Utkarsh Narang (10:28.525) Mm. Josh Davis (10:43.88) other approaches. Utkarsh Narang (10:45.134) Got it. Got it. Yeah. So many questions arise. And by the way, to the listeners, Josh has very subtly named his book twice in the last few minutes. So the name of the book that's coming out soon is The Difference That Makes the Difference. And I've had the privilege of reading that book, Josh. So I'm going to, yeah, ponder upon those questions. Let's do this. Maybe we are eight minutes into the conversation and we have started to speak about change and mindset. And I think At some level, there's a deep desire in a high percentage. was about to say all human beings, but a high percentage of human beings wanting to change something about their life. But change also brings up fears. Change also brings up resistance. So let's do this, Josh. Let's make a promise to our listeners today that by the end of this conversation, if they continue to listen, we will help build a framework with them today, which you have not discussed. It's completely unscripted where Josh Davis (11:28.469) . Utkarsh Narang (11:44.812) By the end of the conversation, they'll have some framework that they'll be able to put into practice if they want to change something about their life. Is that a promise too big? Josh Davis (11:55.136) Some framework, right? is probably something that we can arrive at. Yeah, like a few key steps to help them at least start to explore what those, I mean, I've used the title of the book a few times because that's how I talk about it, but help identify what the difference is that could make the difference. Utkarsh Narang (11:56.686) It's not my book. Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (12:08.45) Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. So, so change Josh. That's, that's the big theme, right? Someone wants to go from A to B or maybe not even someone wants to someone is at A. Josh Davis (12:17.877) Mm-hmm. Utkarsh Narang (12:23.458) and they don't know yet if they want to change themselves, if they want to change certain parts of themselves. How does one get to that state where they build the awareness that A or being like A is not serving me? What's the first step there, Josh? Josh Davis (12:40.733) Okay, so first step, and so if you're looking for a framework, right, I think first step is you identify three things. You identify, or we can make these three steps. I don't know if that's better, but these are the three things, right? You identify your desired outcome, and you don't have to know exactly what it would be, but it's something which is not your present state. Utkarsh Narang (13:01.102) you Josh Davis (13:06.965) You describe your present state, some people like to call that the problem, and then you start to explore what's stopping you from moving from your present state to your desired outcome. So far, you know, nothing like crazy to be said. However, in my experience, those three things are not clearly delineated. Most people haven't actually sat down and really articulated the, what's my desired outcome here and what. Utkarsh Narang (13:11.342) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (13:20.046) Hmm. Josh Davis (13:35.893) how would I describe my present state, and the things that are working for me and that aren't working for me and so forth, and certainly, much less often, even if they've got those, have they then really explored the question, all right, what's stopping me? So that would be the starting point for me, yeah. Utkarsh Narang (13:50.542) So step one is to identify three parts. What's your desired outcome, your present state, and what are the obstacles that are stopping you right now? Let's make it even simpler for our listeners. Imagine that the end goal, Josh, is I'm... Josh Davis (14:00.519) Yeah. Josh Davis (14:07.957) And I'd love also for us to offer an example. Maybe this is where you're going right now. Yeah. Cause it's already abstract. Right. yeah. Utkarsh Narang (14:11.694) Absolutely. 100%. So, so exactly. I'm, I'm, I'm 200 pounds and my, that's my present state. I'm 200 pounds. I can lift some weight. do some exercise, but there's resistance. My desired outcome is to be by the end of 2025, be at say 160 pounds. I don't know if that's possible, but let's, that's the desire can be anything. Right? So the desired outcome is 160 pounds. But what comes in the way, and that's the obstacles, Josh and you correct me if I'm not thinking in the right way about the obstacles. The first obstacle is that I love food. And I have this association with food that food is what brings you joy. So that's the first. Second is I don't want to wake up every morning to exercise. Maybe some days, yes, but not regularly. That's number two. Josh Davis (14:50.805) Mm-hmm. Utkarsh Narang (15:08.662) And my life is so busy. I have two kids. I have a full-time job. I have a podcast to record, and conditions apply. This is not me, please. I'm just role playing, role playing this, this, so three obstacles. love food. Completely made up. I am not able to exercise regularly and life is too busy. So now we have done this first introspection and it'll be a little deeper. What's next Josh. Josh Davis (15:17.919) Alright. completely made up. Josh Davis (15:27.146) Mm-hmm. Josh Davis (15:34.323) Okay, and so in this case, you were able to have a very concrete definition of your desired outcome. Sometimes people are just thinking, I wanna make more money, or I want more freedom, or I can't stand having things be the same, right? And in which case, then there's a lot more to get to a desired outcome that can actually serve you, what we would call a well-formed outcome in NLP. And... which stands for neuro-linguistic programming. If anybody just heard me quickly say NLP, we'll get more into that, or we can, or I can point you towards resource. you've got a desired outcome, that sounds like you at least have a pretty clear sense of what it is. You know where you're going to, not just what you're running away from, so that's gonna make it easier. I don't know if that's something that you feel like is within your control. but that'd be something important to explore when we have a goal that's not within our control, like I wanna get this sale. Well, that depends on the other person that's not in your control. There are things that are within your control that will move you there, but that's not, right? So we'd wanna explore those criteria. Is it every context where you wanna be doing this? When it's something about your weight, well, you're probably showing up with that weight in every context, but maybe not. Maybe it's... Utkarsh Narang (16:40.142) Hmm. Josh Davis (16:54.537) You know, on vacations I don't wanna care, or maybe this is just for a time and I wanna make wait for my wedding for photos and then I actually, it's right. So the context does make a big difference in people's willingness or their, you know, so. And then is it ecological? So meaning, if you think of like an ecosystem, what are the other things that'll push back? Utkarsh Narang (16:57.07) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (17:18.862) Hmm. Josh Davis (17:24.565) From what you've said, my guess is in this case, you've got other things that would be unacceptable to you somehow, that push back. Given the ways that you currently have thought of for how to get from 200 to 160, again, a hypothetical situation, right? Then there are three things that you identified that you would expect would really just not be okay with you, right? It wouldn't be okay to lose this Utkarsh Narang (17:49.902) you Josh Davis (17:54.761) this relationship with food, this joy of eating, right? It wouldn't be okay to spend the time that you think it would take to get all the way to 160. And then there was a third thing you said, and I'm forgetting what it was. Life is busy, right, okay. So the sacrifice in terms of other things, the work or the kids or the travel, I don't know, whatever it is, is not acceptable to you, right? So those. Utkarsh Narang (18:06.988) that life is busy. Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (18:20.152) Hmm. Josh Davis (18:20.871) So it's possible that there's this internal resistance, this internal conflict as a result. So these would be where the next step is, let's identify what are those pieces that might be getting in the way. And there's a lot here. And I will admit that what I'm sharing, there's a lot of complexity to this. I've been doing this stuff for 25 years. That's one of the main reasons we wrote this book is to make it simple so that people who haven't been doing it for 25 years can just follow a few prompts, right? And like, and get there. So, you know, so there's a chapter that takes you through those five criteria of making sure that your desired outcome is a well-formed outcome. That's gonna remove or reduce a lot of resistance. In this case, Utkarsh Narang (18:54.008) Hmm. Josh Davis (19:10.855) Since it seemed like you were really nodding when I was saying there's some internal conflict, it wouldn't be okay with you. Let's just take one of them to change your relationship with food, right? To give up that love of that food, right? And right now you don't see an alternative to that, to get there. So, here's the second piece. If you encounter resistance, so let's assume that people are doing this first step. Utkarsh Narang (19:26.774) Right. Right. Josh Davis (19:37.587) Maybe they're also able then to look at, so they've got the desired outcome, the present state, and the what's stopping me from moving from one to the other. And some of the listeners might say, I like this well-formed outcome idea. I'm gonna check those five criteria too. But even if you haven't done that, if you're getting a sense there's some resistance, some kind of internal resistance, then the next step, I would say, is Utkarsh Narang (19:44.568) Hmm. Josh Davis (20:07.635) Let's explore. And you'll hear me use language like explore and get curious and so forth because with the complexity of a human mind, it's never always the same way. You can't read somebody else's mind. You can't guess, but you can have some good ideas and you can get curious. And as long as you stay open, as long as you have this attitude that I'm exploring and I'm getting curious about it, you're more likely to make sure that you don't get too attached to any one idea. Utkarsh Narang (20:34.926) Hmm. Josh Davis (20:35.411) Because what you're finding is the truth for that person. I want to find your truth. Knowing my truth is practically irrelevant here. What's true for you? Because my reality and your reality are not the same. And people don't respond to reality. We can't even know reality. It's too complex. But we respond to our versions of reality, our set of beliefs and understanding of what the world is and how it works and so forth. So what's your reality? So that's what I want to stay open to. Utkarsh Narang (20:38.734) Yeah. Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (20:56.11) Hmm. Josh Davis (21:04.967) So within that then, if there's resistance, then I can explore what is that. And part of it is just kind of asking this question, what's stopping you? We got somewhere. And then I wanna kind of explore, I'll give the question to ask first and then we can get more into why. How is that serving you? And you can just pause and reflect on that right now, because it sounded like whether or not this is a real example for you, I think. Utkarsh Narang (21:27.81) Hmm. Josh Davis (21:34.037) you're saying there is a real love of food and it's, you know, gets in the, so how is that serving you to have this love of food, you know? Utkarsh Narang (21:43.532) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think, yeah. So, so I'll make it into two parts. First, I'll respond to the question as we're role playing this, because that's going to help me and also listeners understand. this love for food, as I'm reflecting upon it, and I'm reflecting on my week for this week, maybe four days, I was able to control what I wanted to eat. And by Friday, when maybe my willpower has reduced because I've had a busy week. by Friday, I'm like, what the hell? I'm not going to eat clean. I've had enough salads. It's not giving me joy because joy comes from love for food, which comes from a butter chicken masala, which comes from something like a pizza maybe. And that's what I want. And that's what happens where to feed my emotional need, I incline upon food. So that's what's coming up for me, Josh. And I'll pause it before you respond to it. Because for the listeners, think Josh, what Josh has point, first of all, this is like a thousand dollar coaching session. So make, make, make good use of it. that's what we do for a living. so the first step was identify what is it that you want to change? The present state, the desired outcome and what's stopping you. we did that. Then we moved to this idea that when you move from A to B, or when you have the desire of moving from A to B, the obstacles are stopping you. Josh Davis (22:46.131) Right. Utkarsh Narang (23:09.794) but you have to understand where is that resistance coming from. And a good way Josh, what you were saying was there were two questions you spoke about. A, what is getting in the way, which helps any individual explore the resistance. And this is very well applicable to changing a job. This is applicable to asking for a raise. This is applicable to if you're a business owner and you want to go for that first sale, you want to go for that. It applies to everywhere. so what is getting in the way? Josh Davis (23:36.405) How does it serve you to not ask for the job? How does it serve you to be afraid of picking up the phone? That's the question to honestly ask. And presume that there is an answer, that it is actually serving you in some way. Not just to try to shut it up and say, it's a terrible thing, I just have to kill that part of myself. Well, that part of yourself is there. And it's a part of you. And it's there for a reason. And so let's find out. Utkarsh Narang (23:46.242) Yeah, so. Utkarsh Narang (23:50.978) Hmm Utkarsh Narang (23:59.49) Correct. Yeah. Yeah. So how is that serving you? And that reflection will allow you to understand, do you want to stay in that current state or is there a deeper desire to change? Is where we are at Josh. Does that summarize well of what we spoke? Josh Davis (24:19.125) It could have that effect that you're already at a point where you're saying, you know what? Yeah, there's some, there's a cost to doing this, but I have an even deeper desire to change. And maybe that's enough. Maybe it's just a cost benefit of the internal struggle. And that could be the outcome, but that's not necessarily the outcome at this point. At this point, I would say we're discovering what we would call the positive intention behind the resistance. Utkarsh Narang (24:34.124) Hmm Josh Davis (24:49.473) And this is sometimes a tough pill for people to swallow, that every behavior has a positive intention. And you might think, yeah, what about the bully at my kid's school, right? How is that positively intended? Well, a bully is often bullying someone because they wanna feel powerful, or they want acceptance from other bullies, or they want to prove to themselves that they can't be pushed around. wanting to feel powerful, wanting acceptance, wanting to prove to yourself that you can't be pushed around, those are positive intentions. It's a bad way to go about it and it often leads to the exact opposite outcome of what they desire, but it's a positive intention. So we're finding the positive intention and you may end up saying, okay, now that I know the positive intention, I really think that is the best way for me to serve that positive intention and it's a very important one to me. Or you might say, you know what? it's possible there are other ways to serve that positive intention that would also allow me to change. And so as you're getting in touch with this positive intention, when you've asked this question, which comes up when you say, is that serving you? So when you're getting in touch with this positive intention, Utkarsh from in the role play here, where you're saying, well, that's where joy comes from in life, right? And I'm not willing, I don't wanna live life without joy. And that's a huge part of where joy comes from. So. Utkarsh Narang (26:06.357) Mm. Mm. Josh Davis (26:14.119) You have this, it's serving you because it's helping to make sure you have joy in your life, right? And so you're not going to make this big change, this drastic change you're talking about. And by the way, you're always free to change the desired outcome. You could say 180, right? I mean, whatever. Maybe there is a different desired outcome that actually serves everything. I don't know. But you are not going to, in my opinion, you are not going to make this change until you find Utkarsh Narang (26:31.342) Hmm. Josh Davis (26:44.081) at least one way where making the change will enable you to have joy in your life, at least as much joy. And maybe there's a particular quality of joy you're looking for. Maybe it's not just any joy. And so a question you can ask, here's another one, how will... Utkarsh Narang (26:50.862) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (26:57.09) Yeah. Yeah. Josh Davis (27:07.411) Reducing your weight. and maybe it's 160, maybe you're already shifting the goal a little bit, I don't know, but how will reducing your weight? enable you to have more of the kind of joy you're looking for in your life. Josh Davis (27:24.693) So the abstract version of that is how will working towards the goal actually help you achieve more of the positive intention. Utkarsh Narang (27:33.39) Yeah. Yeah. I'm reflecting upon this. Fascinating because what you're doing here is helping me replace this joy that I was getting with food to now with the desired outcome that I have, how will that give me that joy is what we're And why this is very relatable, Josh, because Josh Davis (27:54.399) That is the question, yeah. Utkarsh Narang (27:59.99) I've gone through this journey over the last 12 months. So in 2024 early, I was actually whatever the weight that we were speaking about, not the numbers. And what I think I realized through that journey, and that's why this becomes a very powerful approach to make this help listeners also shift things about themselves is because I started to think that if I'm able to be at a certain weight, I'll be able to run faster. I'll be able to play better. I'll be able to engage better with my children who are now growing up, who want to play basketball. but I don't have the energy to do that. Now, is the joy of the food bigger than joy that I get to play with them? The answer was that it was the latter. And so for me to get that joy of playing with them, it is important for me to shift this relationship with food and thus, in a way, overcome the obstacles. Josh Davis (28:49.991) Mm-hmm. And that might be the difference that makes the difference for you. Serving that joy in a different way, maybe even getting to greater joy. Somebody else might have had a different reaction. They might have taken the question and attached different things to it in their mind. They might have said, no, that particular joy is important. They may have come up with some creative solution where they thought, well, actually, if I've lost the weight, I can actually. then really enjoy it without any internal struggle, but just less frequently. There's just so many ways that the question can be answered. And notice that I didn't offer anything about the specifics. I just gave you the form of the question and you filled it all in. Utkarsh Narang (29:29.304) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (29:33.058) Yeah. Yeah. Powerful, powerful. And once we have reached this space where maybe I've discovered that my joy could be now shifted and be more in line with my desired outcome, what's the next step to getting to that change, Josh? Josh Davis (29:52.191) Well, here we're going down kind of a speculative road of like, well, what would it be for you? Right? And so it may be that at that point, that's everything you're done. Right. And it may be that you find there's other points of resistance. Okay. But what about this? The time that takes, or it could be that we're, you know, there's, now you need to kind of learn how to really do it. How would I be that person? Right. And, Utkarsh Narang (29:56.846) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (30:06.979) Hmm. Josh Davis (30:22.195) And so here we have to kind of like, it really does depend on the individual's path, what they need to change. And because we spoke about resistance, I would say if there's another form of resistance or there's another element of resistance within this food piece, just repeat the process, right? So let's say that we get to a point where it's like, okay, Utkarsh Narang (30:29.262) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (30:43.95) you Josh Davis (30:49.477) I don't, a third option is I don't believe. I can see that, but I don't really believe I can do that. That's not me. Other people maybe have done it, but not me, right? And so are we gonna wanna then work on a belief change? Or you might be saying, I don't know how to do this. So are we gonna wanna work on some kind of capability or skill change, right? Utkarsh Narang (30:55.31) Right. Utkarsh Narang (30:59.342) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (31:05.23) Hmm. Josh Davis (31:14.485) And for you, know, or others too, but just if we start with those two options, either of those kind of ring true for you in this case. that maybe it's about, I don't really believe that that's the case or I don't believe I could do that or is it more like, I don't know how this actually happens or. Utkarsh Narang (31:33.73) Yeah. Yeah. I think where I'm getting with this at is, and as I'm thinking about my situation plus, plus beyond, think when that, when that shift happens, where you can find joy in something else that is in line with your desired outcome, it's almost like finding that why, right? The, the, the pop psychology kind of a term, right? Find your why and then the rest follows. So it's almost that we're trying to get the, get the coach or the user or me in this case. Josh Davis (31:52.031) Bye. Utkarsh Narang (32:02.424) to that state where I understand what my why is behind that weight loss. And if that why becomes really clear, then the capability problem or the time problem, I'll be able to solve those problems if that desire is really strong. Does that make sense, Josh? Josh Davis (32:17.809) Yes, yes, that you probably will be able to solve those problems. It's often a really important piece of the puzzle. Sometimes it's not. Sometimes people are perfectly in tune with their why and there's something else in the way. But it's often an important piece of the puzzle and it's certainly worth exploring. And I think it very much is analogous to that why that you're talking about. And another way of getting there instead of how is that serving you is to say why is that important to you? Utkarsh Narang (32:26.99) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (32:47.086) you Josh Davis (32:48.167) And then, yeah, and so, you know, why is that important to you? And then you can, once you get an answer, you can even take it another step and say, why is that important to you, that answer, you know, and why is it, know, and so you can really get to, you know, somebody's motivating values or even identity, which is, you know, will influence everything about what they're doing. Utkarsh Narang (32:56.312) Hmm. Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (33:08.216) Yeah, yeah, beautiful. I love this. So the framework that we have given, and it's a rough framework. They'll have to go through a book and maybe reach out to either one of us to do this in a better and deeper way. But what it is is... Josh Davis (33:21.791) But at the same time, hopefully it's something where they can listen on just the podcast and say, okay, I'm gonna ask myself these questions in this series, right, in this steps and see what happens. And my guess is that for a lot of people, it will help advance them towards the change they want. Utkarsh Narang (33:39.63) 100%. I 100 % agree with that. So to summarize, and then we'll shift our attention to something else, is that A, identify and define the present state and the desired outcome. Explore your obstacles. Once you have the obstacles listed, then look at where is that resistance coming from? And you also spoke about Josh having a well-formed outcome. I think that's going to be important. Once that is all present, then you create that, the ecosystem is what you start to speak about, the context. and what your personal perception is to that situation. Once you've started to define that, then the question that Josh you gave us was, what is getting in the way and how is that serving you? And once that gives you clarity about the intention that you have, then you move into asking, how will doing this bring more joy in your life or whatever that relationship is where you're going? And then it's forms the action and the accountability and that stuff. Josh Davis (34:37.639) Yes, yes. if we also just for the listener's sake, if we strip it down to just the actions for them to take, and I think what you gave is the actions plus the explanations, then it would be what's my desired outcome? What's my present state? And by the way, present state can include those things external to you, but also internal, your thoughts, your feelings, your capabilities. And then what's stopping me? Utkarsh Narang (34:37.74) Samurai. Utkarsh Narang (34:49.358) Hmm. Josh Davis (35:06.613) from moving from the present state to the desired outcome. Then we take something from that what's stopping you and explore how is that serving you right now, that presuming it is serving you in some way. Or we can say why is that important to you to do that? Once we've got that, then we've identified that important thing or that positive intention, that value, your why, whoever you wanna frame it. And we can say, can you get more of that by making this change you're trying to make? So if we just strip it down to the steps without the theory behind it, and without the explanations, those would be, I think, the steps we've gone through. Utkarsh Narang (35:49.646) Perfect. Perfect. Now through all of this, Josh, here's me playing the devil's advocate. We can give everyone the framework. We can try and support. We can try and support ourselves, others through this change game that we are trying to play here. Right. Then there's this section of your book, which I really love where you share these eight principles of being limitless. If I remember the word correctly, I want to go through them one by one and take maybe a couple of minutes on each one of them because Josh Davis (36:13.749) Mm-hmm. Utkarsh Narang (36:21.036) And maybe even before that, as I'm thinking through this. Change is still hard. You can have all the frameworks. You can have everything that you need, but being consistent, trying to change things about yourself, trying to feel that I'm limitless does not come naturally to everyone. What's your understanding of this? Because I contemplate a lot on this and I'm unable to yet figure out why can't all of us be high performers? Josh Davis (36:50.613) Well, we all can't be relatively high performers because if everybody's I've you know, you all can't have everyone above average So if we're compared to each other, but that's just a technical definition. but yes, why can't we all be high performers? I I think we all can be higher performers than we are And I think we in general that's actually the trajectory that people take in life You know, there's some things where we might get sort of calcified in some maladaptive way of doing things, but there's other areas of our lives. You know, I've yet to meet a person who is not, who hasn't grown in some useful way in some area of their life, you know, as life has gone on. I know maybe for somebody it's becoming more compassionate, maybe for somebody else it's learning to stand up for themselves, but you know, you see, you'll see changes. So it's inevitable that we do change. So yes, change is hard and yes, it's inevitable that we change. And in fact, you couldn't stay the same if you wanted to. So. You know, so there's this paradox here, right? That both of those things are happening. Maybe it has to do with this. I'm pretty sure there's research on this, I have to, I would have to kind of dig into it to see what there really is. But I'm pretty sure I've come across this kind of thing where that people have this relatively stable image of themselves from the past. But in fact, they have changed on any objective measure quite a bit in many ways, personality, capabilities, so forth. But that aside. You're really more core to the message here though. So the point is it's hard even if you know this stuff. And I would agree that, also can we all be, you know, that person who's always feeling limitless. I'll address those separately. So it is hard often. And at the same time you've had experiences in your life, correct me if I'm wrong, where all of a sudden one day it could have been something you've wanted to change forever. all of a sudden one day you were like, yeah, I'm gonna behave differently with my kids that way, or I'm gonna actually move to Australia, or I'm gonna do this project that I haven't done. Why haven't I done it? I don't know. Or I'm gonna actually reach out and start calling people who, from my past, right? All of a sudden one day that kind of thing does happen and will make a change and maybe it's because of talking to a friend and the way they frame something or maybe it's seeing some example or maybe, you know, Utkarsh Narang (39:08.398) Hmm. Josh Davis (39:16.841) But it does happen where we will suddenly make a change and it will be forever. And you know, changing a way of eating or changing an exercise routine. I've done that instantly and forever a couple of times. And it's like, you know, but there's other things I haven't changed after years of wanting to. So we all, I think, have that experience where some changes are very hard and stubborn and some are instant and lasting and some are instant and not lasting, right? Utkarsh Narang (39:29.496) Hmm. Hmm. Josh Davis (39:46.163) And sometimes the ones that are instant were stubborn for a long time and then suddenly changed. I know that I used to hate writing. I did not like it. It was a struggle. I did not enjoy writing. this is, mean, into my thirties. And then I changed my approach to writing and I really enjoy writing now. And I've written two books and they're doing well. mean, the one we're talking about, it hasn't even come out yet. And we've already got a couple of translation deals and an audio deal and... Utkarsh Narang (40:00.878) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (40:07.042) Hmm. Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (40:12.014) Hmm. Josh Davis (40:15.141) and like we're, you know, got good pre-sales and like, you know, that's great. And my last book was translated into 10, it's in 10 languages. It's like, it's sold, it was an international best seller. It still sells. Like I've written a bunch of articles and I enjoy it. And it's not a drain for me either. I don't, it's not a difficult process. I don't have any kind of nice discipline about it. You know, I do flip open the laptop and write for 10 minutes here and there. Like that's my relationship with it. Utkarsh Narang (40:29.634) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (40:37.347) Yeah. Josh Davis (40:44.913) And it's because of some changes I made literally one day. So it can happen. And so really, if it can happen and if I'm right, that we all have some experiences in our life where this kind of thing has happened, then it must be possible. And so it's like, well, what is that? What's that difference? Utkarsh Narang (40:49.995) Maybe. Josh Davis (41:06.121) And we're talking health changes or work changes or personal changes or relationship changes, like any kinds of changes except for stuff that just like there's physical limitations to. But apart from that, there's quite a lot. Now I'm also, now to answer the second question. I'm someone who regularly does not wake up just feeling limitless and feeling joy the instant I wake up. I have to work at it. And I'll sometimes forget to. And then I'll take some pieces of advice, things I've learned from others, or a person thinking about a person like you. You seem to be actually one of those people who from the outside appears like you do just wake up more positive than most people. But I know I can get there. Utkarsh Narang (41:34.414) Mmm. Utkarsh Narang (41:55.811) Yeah. Hmm. Josh Davis (41:59.177) when I remind myself of certain things, or change my focus, just quickly, lately for me, there's been with the new book and then with the business expanding, I've got like a feeling like there's just so much, it's hard to track, right? And I'm just confused and there's all these little pieces and it's all stuff where I have to do a lot of things, but there's no immediate way for me to know, did that work? Did that not work? I'm writing things and putting pieces out and marketing. Utkarsh Narang (42:24.706) Right. Right. Josh Davis (42:28.949) And so I'll often wake up in recent months with these kinds of feelings. But I have some tools that I know to do and then I'll get to it sometime within a few minutes to five hours from when I wake up where I reset. And I'm able, and a lot of times I simply remind myself of some of these beliefs that you talked about in the first part of the book. Other times, you know, I'll... Utkarsh Narang (42:45.827) Yeah. Josh Davis (42:54.707) you know, look at a quote from somebody who has influenced me before, like Albert Ellis, or actually Tony Robbins had something just yesterday that was really useful for me. but, you know, just something that's gonna help me often, right now the thing for me is to focus on the present. to think about what I want to create in this world. That for me is hugely important, because I've done the big picture thinking. Utkarsh Narang (43:16.526) Mm. Josh Davis (43:21.983) There's no way to know which one small thing is actually gonna make the difference today. There's other times when that is the key thing I need to do is to figure out what's the most important and focus on it. Right now, that's not. And so focusing on the present and what I really want to create in this world, what kinds of messages do I wanna get out of there? That's the thing for me right now. But this, six months from now, it'll be a different issue that I wake up with, a different form of indigestion. Utkarsh Narang (43:33.784) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (43:38.978) Mm. Josh Davis (43:49.341) Right? then, and then, so I'm not one of those people that just naturally wakes up feeling unlimited, but I frequently get there. Most days, I will have some time when I do get myself there. And it makes a big difference. Utkarsh Narang (43:55.214) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (44:02.882) Yeah. Yeah. Love that. Yes. I'll respond to everything and then assimilate everything. So one thing. Yeah. Sometimes I feel like there's something wrong with my wiring, but I think I've just programmed myself to be this way, Josh, that I actually wake up thinking limitless. mean, you're right. And I didn't find that. But I, on the other hand, would also share that it has come from a level of awareness because there are days when I pro procrastinate like anything on starting something. And then I pause and reflect like, what the hell is happening with Utkarsh? And I realized that there's some anxiety associated with that thing or some other thing that pushes me. Like for example, starting this podcast, Josh, I knew that I want to have these conversations, deeper conversations, thoughtful conversations, wherever they lead to, And there's no, there's no immediate outcome. Like I'm not getting like a thousand dollars out of a podcast or I'm getting like a million views every podcast. But someday I might. I procrastinated and my conscious procrastinating Josh, how it happened was I selected Marshall Goldsmith that he will be the first episode as I'll not start a podcast. And then I gave myself a second option as well that there's a coach called Alisa Cohn. She's a coach in the US and someone I admire and loved her books. So she'll be the second person. I started emailing Marshall in 2024 January. And every month I'll send an email. He connected me to the PR team. He connected me to the podcast team. But never did they agree to a date. And which I understand he's a busy man. He's 75 years old doing beautiful work in the world still. And so for me, was like, he'll never say yes. I'll never have to start a podcast. And then I started to look at Alisa and then started to reach out to her and she said yes. And I'm like, part of me was like, damn, there's going to be a lot of work now because I to start a podcast. Josh Davis (45:56.84) Uh-huh. Utkarsh Narang (45:57.634) But then that's, that's, that's the emotional roller coaster that I go through every day. But what you're saying, Josh, ultimately to summarize is that we all naturally go through change. And I think what is really important, Josh, what he said is, which people should identify and look at is that change will happen around different aspects of you. It's not necessary that all of them will change in one go, but some of them are changing. And if you are able to identify that, then change becomes natural. Change becomes normal in a way. Josh Davis (46:20.34) Mm-hmm. Utkarsh Narang (46:26.54) And this whole idea of, again, coming from social media, to make this bill look hard to swallow, change is hard, change is unnatural, change is leading to conflict, I think that is also playing in our minds, Josh, because that's associated the word change with kind of a negative connotation. What are your thoughts on that? Josh Davis (46:49.669) Hmm. Yeah. Well, it's also such, yes. So negative connotation. And it's also what we would call in NLP, a nominalization, meaning a verb that's been turned into a noun. And so we act as though it's this thing, right? And you can't do anything, but it's not a real thing. And you can't really picture what's changed. And so it just sits there and it just... Utkarsh Narang (47:01.934) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (47:05.559) you Josh Davis (47:16.379) It has a sense associated with it. Like it's hard, which we hear frequently largely because writers, I think, want to try to meet their audience where they are. And so they say like, we feel you, we feel your pain. Change is hard, right? I mean, someone who's feeling like it's easy at the moment is not reading the article. Right? So, so you want to, you know, meet them where they are. So yes, that is kind of a meme. Change is hard. And I think it gets out there. It's also this abstract concept. One thing that Utkarsh Narang (47:35.596) I it. Josh Davis (47:45.169) NLP encourages people to do is to take nominalizations, verbs that have been turned into nouns and turn them back into verbs. It makes them easier to deal with because it's an act changing. What are you changing? How are you? How specifically are you changing or how specifically are you not changing? Right. And it's never a static thing. It's a process. It's not an all or nothing thing. And I think that helps you kind of see that, that, you know, and there and also implies there are things we're doing to not change. Utkarsh Narang (48:06.096) Mmm. Beautiful. Josh Davis (48:13.929) Right? You can't just not change. You can't just have it happen to you. Like there are things you're doing to not change. So, so that's another piece I think is useful, but you know, for both of those reasons, it just being this abstract thing, it's like, what are you talking about? Change, right? You're selling change. What? It's like when people say they're selling solutions, it's just like, you know, like, did you really just waste my time with that sentence? Right? And, but, you know, and then of course here I am someone who does that also, but Utkarsh Narang (48:13.934) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (48:17.74) Yeah, yeah, yeah, fascinating. Utkarsh Narang (48:31.662) Yeah. Josh Davis (48:44.041) But I get it, I have the same reaction. So it's abstract and it has, I think there often is this negativity to it, but then other times it's excitement. People just have different relationships with change and it will depend on which change. It's like somebody can be super excited about career change and absolutely not want any changes in their own life. Utkarsh Narang (49:06.082) Yeah, yeah. So many, so many variables there are to, to, to any journey that we'll ever take as human beings. And I think one thing that you said, I just want to kind of build upon that is that we don't even know if all of this is real. It's all our perception of the reality that we call the reality. So, sometimes I feel like the world is nothing but 8 billion perceptions, each one trying that my perception is better or stronger than yours. it's a fascinating word. don't want to have this podcast and without mentioning the eight principles, Josh, and maybe we'll speak about one or two of them. So I'm going kind of quickly go through them. Josh Davis (49:40.885) I thought it was ambitious to go through each one. Utkarsh Narang (49:44.844) Yeah, yeah, I agree with that. I agree with that. Maybe, maybe I'll pick up one so that the listeners can pick up the book to read all eight. But with the one that I deeply resonate with is the second one where you the title is Why Not Me? And then I think something that we spoke about already is assuming good intentions that even something like bullying can have a good intention behind it because they're trying that. I understanding it correctly, Josh? That's one. But yeah. Josh Davis (50:00.341) Mm-hmm. Josh Davis (50:13.077) Mm-hmm. Utkarsh Narang (50:14.255) What does it mean by saying why not me? Can you explain that in a little bit of detail? Josh Davis (50:18.293) Yeah, so I think most people will have had that experience. I wish I could do this thing. Other people can do it. Someone else can do it, but I can't. I could never be that person on stage with 10,000 people showing up and paying whatever to show up. I could never be the one who actually gets promoted to Chief Financial Officer. Or at least not at a big company. We all have these ideas or beliefs, conscious or unconscious, about that, like, well, I could never do that. And plenty of people have talked about the imposter syndrome, that we don't really believe that, even when we're getting there, that we really belong. And so we're inviting people to go ahead and really explore this question, why not me? And the reason is... that this kind of underlying belief behind it is that if someone else in the world can do something, then I can too. Now, there's a way of hearing that where before you've read the book, we might just say like, okay, let's try to pump ourselves up. It's like, it's all like, why not? Why not me? There's a more specific reason that this belief exists and why we're. know, encouraging people to take it on as one of their foundational presuppositions in anything they do. Which by the way, you often need to remind yourself of, like I need to remind myself of it, you know, when I'm stuck, I'm like, yeah, let me think about that one for a little bit. All right. So the reason why anyone can, can, can do something if someone else has is because we can learn from their mental model, from the way that they think about reality. And there's things that we can borrow from that. Now, of course there are some specific limitations of like, you know, if I, like I am not a citizen of certain countries there and then if there's a law saying that a non-citizen can't be president, I can't be president of that country, right? So yes, of course there are some. But for when we're talking about most of the changes people wanna make that have to do with, you know, relationships, work, know, health and so forth, which are generally the categories that capture everything. Josh Davis (52:44.193) whether it's for yourself or in an interpersonal thing, people are operating according to their version of reality, what we would call their mental model. And it's like a model train set, it's a model of it, it's not the actual territory, it's not the real train, it's not like a map that you might use when you visit a city. It doesn't have... Utkarsh Narang (52:54.222) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (52:58.542) Mm-mm. Josh Davis (53:06.183) everything on the map, doesn't have the culture, it doesn't have the flavors of the foods, it doesn't have even every street, right, or every store. But it generally shows you where to go and how to find things. It's got a lot of information. We never have a complete map or a complete model of the world, but we have a model of the world. And so that's why early, right in the beginning when I was saying, well, what's true for you versus what's true for me. you know, let's all try to take on this attitude that let's presume that something is true for someone else that may not be true for me. And it is actually their truth. And so what are the components then of a mental model? So there's a lot that we can learn. And in the book, there's, you know, there's, you know, after these eight beliefs, there's all these specific tools, like another 20 chapters of like specific tools for how do you unpack what somebody's mental model is and then how do you help to shift that. Utkarsh Narang (53:59.566) Right. Yeah. Josh Davis (54:01.493) or to take it on for yourself. But some quick things that you can start to look for are how do they think about themselves as a person in this particular context? So if we go back to the example of shifting your eating, if you know somebody else who has dropped from that percentage, what, 20 % of their weight, in a healthy way, then... Utkarsh Narang (54:08.162) Mm-hmm. Utkarsh Narang (54:23.054) Right. Josh Davis (54:29.609) You how do they think of themselves, right? What is important to them? You talked about this joy of being with the family. Are there other things that are important to them? Like what is meaningful to them about making that shift? What are they capable of? You what are their skills as pertains to doing this? You know, does it have to do with just willpower or is it something else? Like they know how to have a good time with salad, right? Or they know how to choose restaurants or they... know how to throw dinner parties in a way that's, you know, it's like, I don't know what their skills are, but what are they, right? You know, and so identity and values and skills and there may be certain beliefs they have, you know, about the way things work and what will happen or what will people think or they may have certain skills pertaining to what they do if it goes wrong, you know, or behaviors like, well, what do you do if you've just been like three weeks and you have just been failing for the last three weeks and Utkarsh Narang (55:01.262) Mm. Yeah. Josh Davis (55:26.717) It starts to feel hopeless. Well, maybe they have a strategy for that. You know, maybe they've been there. And, and so it's like, and how do they even engage when they sit down with the food? Like what is the pace at which they eat? How do they prepare the table? Like all these things, these are all things you can unpack, right? And there's much more, but that's just like starting with what we call the logical levels, the identity, values, beliefs, capabilities, behaviors, environment. So. Utkarsh Narang (55:28.312) Yeah, correct. Utkarsh Narang (55:36.268) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (55:39.784) I oof. Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (55:49.89) Yeah. Josh Davis (55:56.861) There's lots of ways to explore that stuff in the ways people talk. As you get into it, you can learn to spot certain things and ask questions. But even if you're just going in and you're thinking about those things and you're just getting curious about it, you'll discover something, something of value. And even if you're just imagining the other person's logical levels, it's still useful even if you're wrong. Utkarsh Narang (56:08.632) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (56:12.098) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (56:25.474) Hmm. Josh Davis (56:25.621) because you will expand your mental model. You will discover options, usually. If you can check in with them, you'll discover different options, right? Maybe they'll be more useful. Maybe not, right? And you don't have to take it on wholesale, but it's about discovering something that's different that makes a difference for you, right? And that's really the key. Utkarsh Narang (56:28.078) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (56:31.8) today. Yeah, yeah, yeah Utkarsh Narang (56:44.3) Yeah. Love that. Love that. The difference that makes the difference for you. As we go through this change journey, Josh, over our lifetimes, we started with that 80 year old little boy, Josh, who was building these curious models and mindsets and what led to what. If we now go into the future, Josh, and you're 80 years old, if that 80 year old Josh were to now appear in front of you and give you one advice. for how to lead the rest of your life. What would that advice be? Josh Davis (57:17.091) my God, you know what, now I have this great idea that I wanna do. I'll just take the perspective of my 80-year-old self and try to really understand my 50-year-old mental model of a number of different things. It'd be a fun exercise and interesting. Now, in terms of advice, I mean, there's one piece of advice that I currently like to give, so I assume that in the future I will also, but. In the future, I'll probably have some different advice that I want to give. But it's, this is one of the chapters actually that you were referring to in those eight beliefs, but if I knew them what I knew then, right? Which is essentially about the idea that, you know, we talked about, if I knew them what I know now, right? I do it all differently? Well, no, actually one of these NLP beliefs is that everybody behaves in the best way they know how given their current mental model of the situation, right? Utkarsh Narang (57:57.272) Hmm. Josh Davis (58:13.063) If you knew then what you knew then, you would do it all the same. So cut yourself some slack. know, like just have a little more self-compassion. You are evolving, you have reasons for why you're doing things. You actually are making good choices given your mental model. And yeah, you can change your mental model. Keep growing, keep exploring. And you're more likely to keep growing and exploring if you stop beating yourself up about how you used to be. Like if I get punished for changing, because I'm gonna beat myself up every time I learn something new and I'm now embarrassed, am I more likely to change? I think I'm more likely to run away from it. I don't wanna deal with that guy, that jerk who's gonna keep on punishing me, my future self. Yeah, so that's a shift I wanna make and I'm still working on it, but I'm much better at it than I used to be. Utkarsh Narang (58:47.884) Right. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Powerful. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We're all work in progress. And I love this. It's such a simple yet provocative advice. Cut yourself some slack. It's okay for what you're doing right now. You're doing well. Whatever you're doing is based on the mental model that you have right now. And what I also love and I think is, that Josh Davis (59:17.602) And whether you're doing well or not, cut yourself some slack. Utkarsh Narang (59:20.558) Absolutely. Absolutely. Whatever you're doing for that cut yourself some slack. But what I really loved also, Josh, and I think this is a fitting end to our conversation is that it's like when you have a desired state and a current state. I'm where I'm right now. If I have to go to my kids basketball game at 11 AM, I will put that in my GPS. So I need to know the location of where I need to be to be able to chart the path through Google maps. But as I do that, if I take a wrong turn, Josh Davis (59:47.902) Mm-hmm. Utkarsh Narang (59:50.626) The GPS does not get angry at me, which is what you've said in the book. The GPS changes the route and tells me another route to get to that position. So whatever you're going through your life, enjoy that moment. Josh told us to be present. I think that's really important. And that eight-year-old will very soon turn to that eight-year-old. They'll both meet each other through the 50-year-old Josh. And I think it's a journey worth taking. Josh Davis (01:00:18.238) I love it. Utkarsh Narang (01:00:19.362) Beautiful. Thank you for being here. Loved this one hour and the conversation we had and looking forward to many more. We'll put all the links to the book, to Josh's website, to everything in the show notes. So go ahead and click on them and catch. The first book was two awesome hours. Josh, did I do it? Josh Davis (01:00:34.633) The first book was Two Awesome Hours, and I've said my book a number of times, but I have a co-author also who is absolutely critical to making it what it is. so, Greg Prosmushkin, so it's Josh and Greg's book. The first book was just me, Two Awesome Hours. Utkarsh Narang (01:00:44.774) Could I do him? Could I do him? Utkarsh Narang (01:00:50.892) Perfect, perfect. So we'll put all the links here and thank you, Josh. Have a beautiful weekend. And those who are watching this on YouTube, do not forget to like, share and subscribe because that's how we beat the algorithm to get this to more and more people. And if you were listening to this on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, leave a review to the episode and share with someone who might enjoy this episode. Josh Davis (01:01:11.253) It was really nice to spend this time with you. Great to see you again. Thanks. Utkarsh Narang (01:01:13.88) Thank you, John. Take care of yourself. Utkarsh Narang (01:01:18.946) We'll wait, we'll Alright, so this is the episode. Beautiful, loved it. How was the experience for you? Josh Davis (01:01:27.541) was nice. I I did one other podcast just earlier in the week, and that was the first one. coming in, was just like, don't know. For the first book, was like, there's a point and there's five strategies, right? it's like, and every podcast was really similar, right? And we kind of get to it one way or another, and I would still present it as though it was new and fresh. like, you know, was just it kept it was the same thing. This book. could go anywhere. And I was just like, I don't know, what's gonna come? And I guess one thing that occurs to me is that probably most authors, or most podcast interviewers won't get to the whole book because it's a book, right? So they'll start with it. So there probably will be more about the, but the first one, what I was discovering was the need to really. Utkarsh Narang (01:01:57.699) Yeah. Josh Davis (01:02:21.385) kind of help focus on a single message and which was that change, you know, we can change a lot more than we think. that, you know, that there's, that kind of, it is complex stuff that I'm talking about. And so kind of to acknowledge that and find a way not to like help people feel like they can actually use it. So those are two things that I came in wanting to do and I, and I felt like I really did. But with you, I also felt like I, I felt like I was in safe hand. I know you already, which is nice, and I knew that it was gonna be an interesting, conversation, you'll be fine. So I didn't really have to worry about that, but I had no idea we'd be going in this direction, or even that it'd be this kind of a conversation. But it was really cool. Essentially, you ended up highlighting a number of points, but also... Utkarsh Narang (01:03:03.66) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Josh Davis (01:03:18.939) making it a coaching session. And so like they get to actually observe the use of it. Right. Which is cool. And it's just like, I mean, it, so I have, I suspect yours will be one of the more creative alternatives. Like the other ones, the interviews will be more like the last one, but still the topic subject matter will go in every direction. But like this was a surprise even in terms of the format. Utkarsh Narang (01:03:20.856) Correct. Utkarsh Narang (01:03:24.782) of what's going to Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (01:03:38.008) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (01:03:41.486) Correct. Utkarsh Narang (01:03:48.769) Awesome. Josh Davis (01:03:48.773) of what we're trying to accomplish, which was great. And I definitely enjoyed the conversation. hope it'll be clear enough and useful enough for everyone. Utkarsh Narang (01:03:58.222) Thanks. It will depend on them where their mental models are. And I'll let them take care of that. Why do we worry about it? I think that's the whole purpose of the podcast. I didn't want this to become like a, marketing vehicle for the world, but I want this to have deeper conversations right now. So I started with like a 30, 35 minute conversation. Now I feel 35 minutes is too less. So I've gone to one hour. I want this to be like Joe Rogan. I want this to be like a student that we sit down for like two, three hours. We speak about. Josh Davis (01:04:03.956) Yeah. Josh Davis (01:04:12.009) Right. Josh Davis (01:04:26.249) Yeah, it's like it's a real conversation. It was not just a marketing thing. And so it's like, okay. Utkarsh Narang (01:04:28.174) It's a real conversation. No, not at all, because I don't know what questions I'll ask. My question, it's like a coaching session done with the purpose of helping the listener move forward. So, so let's see. but before we. Josh Davis (01:04:37.033) Yeah. Josh Davis (01:04:40.415) That's cool. that's good. It does make it more interesting. Utkarsh Narang (01:04:44.598) Yeah, amazing. I'm still here. I'm still here, but I've switched off my video for a purpose. So what I want now, Josh, is for you to share three answers. The first question is like, I want to do like one line. Who is Josh? So, hi, I'm Josh. And how are you going to introduce yourself in one line? So that's the first question. You can take a minute to think about it. I'll go on mute. You can just look at the camera and respond to this question. Josh Davis (01:04:46.824) Okay. Josh Davis (01:04:52.98) Nah. Josh Davis (01:05:02.16) okay. In one line. Josh Davis (01:05:13.705) Hi, I'm Josh. I'm a teacher and a father and an author. And I love finding ways to help people think differently about whatever situation they're in. Utkarsh Narang (01:05:28.686) Perfect. The next question would be, why should someone watch this episode? It's one hour of their time and time is precious. So what would you want to say to them in one line, which will be used in the start of the podcast, that if you are blah, blah, you should watch this podcast because this will give you blah, blah, something like that. Does that make sense? Okay. Take a second to think about it. I'll mute myself. You can record it. Josh Davis (01:05:51.966) Okay. Utkarsh Narang (01:05:57.304) then when you pause, I'll ask the final question. Josh Davis (01:06:01.809) If you've been struggling to make a change in your life, this podcast is gonna have something for you that I really don't think you'll find other places. Partly because change is possible to a greater degree than many people realize, and we'll talk about why and how based on NLP, neuro-linguistic programming, and partly because of the way that Utkarsh has done the conversation so that we're really having a rich, deep conversation about all the pieces of it, and it's not just kind of. rehashing a series of talking points. Utkarsh Narang (01:06:36.238) Perfect, thank you. And then the final question is, it's almost like a testimonial to the experience you had during the podcast. So that if we send that to a future guest or if we put that on a place where people can enroll to be guests on our podcast, why should they be here? So it's like a testimonial that this conversation helped you think that it was a great cause, anything around that. Does that make sense? Awesome. Going on mute right now. Josh Davis (01:07:07.155) I highly recommend coming on this podcast. I was surprised when I got here to realize that we were going into a much richer, deeper, real conversation about giving something to the audience that they can actually use, wanting to have some real structured outcome, but also wanting to get deep into, well, you just said this, what does that really mean for me? And so Ukarsh took it into a real conversation that I was not expecting and I loved having. And I would happily come back, but it's gonna be different. It is not just gonna be going through your talking points. It's really gonna be different. Utkarsh Narang (01:07:54.2) Perfect. Awesome. Yeah, that's the purpose. It's a heartfelt, authentic conversation, honest conversation that we have because I love talking to people who I bring on the podcast. Josh Davis (01:08:05.321) Yeah, that's cool. It's cool. I doubt I will ever get around to doing a podcast, but if so, like that definitely inspires me to like, yeah, like have that in mind. Utkarsh Narang (01:08:07.608) Cool. Utkarsh Narang (01:08:22.638) Yeah, awesome. You have a good rest of your Friday evening and then plans for the weekend. Josh Davis (01:08:28.469) Yeah, various kid things and hopefully resting. How about you? It's Thursday for you though, right? It's Saturday. how did that, because like on your, I thought it was Saturday. I thought you were ahead, but then when the, like your automated invite thing, it said Thursday at 9 a.m. Utkarsh Narang (01:08:33.236) I have a basketball match. Yeah, I have a basketball match to get to in two hours. It's Saturday. Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (01:08:47.864) Mm-hmm. Utkarsh Narang (01:08:53.453) Mm-hmm. Josh Davis (01:08:58.517) like the Calendly thing or whatever it is. Utkarsh Narang (01:09:03.5) Did we change the time? Josh Davis (01:09:05.717) I mean, no, it's like, it's Friday at two my time, which should be 9 a.m. Saturday for you. so, if for some reason it said 9 a.m. Thursday, but I figured it doesn't matter, it's on my calendar, so it's whenever it is for him. That's why I was asking. Okay, so it is, so you are ahead, that's why, okay. And it is 9 a.m., yeah, or it was. Utkarsh Narang (01:09:09.538) Yeah. Correct. It was 8 minutes. Utkarsh Narang (01:09:18.366) Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Yes, by it is now it is 9 13. No, it was 8 AM when we started. Yes. We're not, it is still in two weeks, three weeks. Yeah. Josh Davis (01:09:29.877) Oh, was 8 a.m. when we started. Oh, because you haven't done daylight savings yet. Josh Davis (01:09:36.273) Okay. and then when you do, it's actually two out additional hours. So then it'll be 2 PM and 7 AM, right? Right. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. But somehow. Utkarsh Narang (01:09:40.45) Alright. Correct. Yeah. Fascinating word, right? I always start my coaching conversation saying I'm in the future and the future looks good because there a lot of coaches that from the US so it works really well. Josh Davis (01:09:52.445) Right, yeah. Right. So, know, yeah, you always can tell them what's Okay. Utkarsh Narang (01:09:59.774) Awesome, Josh. Totally enjoyed this. This will come out in about, I think, three weeks or maybe four. We'll be in touch. We'll send you all the shots for you to use on your social media, wherever you want to put it. It'll go on YouTube. We'll put it on LinkedIn. We'll tag you to every post that we put. You can come and engage and repost and whatever you want to do with it. Are you on Instagram? Josh Davis (01:10:20.047) I, yeah, well, have, Greg and I together have an Instagram account that's like NLP guys. So yeah, can put it on there. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I mean, I technically have one, but I haven't used it. Utkarsh Narang (01:10:24.544) Okay. We'll find you. We'll find you then. Awesome. my team, okay. Anisha will be in touch if there's anything that she would need from you. She would need a bio and a high resolution picture. So she'll be in touch on Monday. Awesome. Cool. Have a good weekend. Talk to you soon, Bye. And just wait for the recordings to, so you can leave the meeting. Bye. Josh Davis (01:10:38.353) Okay. Okay, great. Okay. You too. Talk to you later. Bye. Josh Davis (01:10:50.901) Okay.