Utkarsh Narang (00:01.102) Ladies and gentlemen, we are in the presence of greatness today because I have someone who I have huge respect for and love for. He started as being my speaker coach when I went through the TEDx journey, but is now a dear friend, a mentor, a guide, someone who I love to have lunches in the city and someone who sparkles and sprinkles gold dust on Ignite Your Spark. Please welcome David. David, how are you today? David (00:26.91) I'm very well Utkarsh and delighted and humbled that you would invite me here to be on your podcast. That's amazing. Thank you very much. Utkarsh Narang (00:35.056) I'm looking forward to this conversation, David, and to all the strawberries that you and I will get to eat on camera today. David (00:41.838) Strawberries are very important. They're the most useful for life. Utkarsh Narang (00:43.76) They are, they are. Yeah, but our listeners, David, they don't know the context of the strawberries yet. So why don't you enlighten all of us with strawberries? David (00:54.43) I certainly will. Do you know what a samurai is? Utkarsh Narang (00:58.714) absolutely, they're those Japanese warriors, right? Who have that shiny glistening swords with them. David (01:05.39) That's right, and they the big sword that people know as the samurai sword. Well, a samurai is a bit more than that. A samurai is a protector of the Japanese emperor. And he's a noble person. You know, that a samurai perfumes his hair. So as if he goes out to battle and loses his head, it will smell nice, whoever chops his head off. The guy that told me this was a consultant. He worked for a company called Campbell & Sons. They were connected with McKinsey's when they were changing a big organisation in Australia. He me two stories over time. First one was about... Well, was Australia 3, the yacht. 1983. One of our consultants was the chief grinder on the yacht. He was good at storytelling. Another one was an actor, TV actor. and he told me a couple of stories, but he told me the story of the samurai. I'd read something similar when I was studying neuro-linguistic program way back in the 70s when it started with Bandler and Grimber, but this story was really interesting which I've always remembered over 40 years now. So the samurai went out one day, had the call, had to go and sort out an enemy of the emperor. went to the site where he was going to meet the person he had to deal with. So he took his sword, which he always sharpened, out of the scabbard, did the deed, was happy with what he'd done. He'd practiced and practiced this kind of work for a long time. And he was walking back to his house, happy, noble, knew what he wanted. And as he was walking, Thinking about life generally, he heard a rustling behind him and he looked round and he saw this dog, wild dog. Nostrils were flared, eyes wide open and he thought that looks a bit odd. So he quickened his pace. The dog started to lope behind him. He ran a bit faster. The dog was running. He was running flat out as fast as he could go. David (03:25.708) And then he had this thought. had two small children at home. He was running towards his home. If he gets there and the dog beats him, the dog might damage his children. So he turns and he goes in a direction he's never gone before. Running as fast as he can, the wild dog behind him. He comes to a precipice. Looks down, he sees a of wild dogs. He jumps. And as he's falling, He sees a branch sticking out of this rock side. He grabs hold of it and he's swinging in the wind. The wild dog's behind trying to get to him. The pack of dogs below him are pulling apart a carcass of a poor animal. And as he's swinging in the fresh air, thinking what he's going to do, he spies a wild strawberry. growing out to the side of the rock face. And he starts to swing towards it. And he's swinging, almost pendulum-like. And he swings and he swings and then he stretches. And whenever he's seen you in his body, he's as taut as a violin string. He manages to grasp the strawberry between two fingers. Plucks it, pops it in his mouth. It tastes... Delightful. It's huge and the flavour's in there. And that's the end of that story. And that's how the guy told me about it. Then he said, what do you think that story's about David? And I wasn't sure at the time, but I could picture this samurai swinging in the wind. I could picture the animals, I could picture everything. And I could picture the fear I would have had. looking down. And then I remembered the strawberry, how he described the strawberry. It tasted delicious. It was volume. It was the only thing he had on his mind at the time. And then he explained the story. The wild dog behind him is his past. He's remembering it. He's seeing it. The pack of dogs below him is the future and he can't predict that because he might fall on the dogs. Utkarsh Narang (05:43.014) Hmm. David (05:51.052) He couldn't predict that. But what he could do was be in the moment while he enjoyed the strawberry. And if you're in the moment, your life's wonderful. Always be in the moment. Be in the strawberry moment. That's what the strawberry story's about. Utkarsh Narang (06:07.253) Beautiful. I've, uh, that's, that's, every time I hear it, when, you, when you talk about that strawberry, when you talk about those animals devouring through the carcass, I can just feel it, feel it, David. And, and, and the first time I heard the story was, I think about, it's been what about a year or so when you first shared the story with me. And I beautifully and clearly remember that after that, every time you and I have met, we've had those strawberries. And we've had the joy and the privilege of having those strawberries. And I think the question that comes up to me then David is, and maybe our listeners are thinking through this as well. How do you really teach yourself? You recently turned 80. I had the pleasure of being at the birthday party. How do you teach yourself to be in the moment? Because we're always worried about the pack of wolves and the dogs and whatever's chasing us. David (07:00.714) I think that's the wisdom of age really. I've been young obviously and I've been impressionable and I wanted everything out of life in the past. again through this learning from my organisation, life was changing. We knew what personnel was, we knew what industrial relations was, we knew all of those things and I worked in the training department and so on. But things were changing, the world was changing, technology was moving and so on. And so we had to learn and upskill. So I learned many things and I've always liked reading and writing and I've always liked poetry and I've always liked all sorts of things and diversity and different communities and so on. I think that I've learned from other people. No one does it on their own. mean, you know, I don't believe in this notion of a self-made man, you know. I was reckless when I was young in a lot of ways. Utkarsh Narang (07:52.806) Hmm. David (08:02.222) And then one day I just realised I was married, I had responsibilities, I had to work, I had a son and I had to display who I was to them in order to lift myself as well as them at the time and they lifted me. So really I'm a constant and never-ending learner. I never... have a day where I don't read something or I don't write something and I'm interested. I have a curious mind. So I may be 80 in this body, this vessel that holds everything inside, but up here I'm 15. I'm always curious and I learned from reading and from speaking to you even, I shouldn't say you even, I mean you're a very intelligent guy and the people I meet when I travel the world and so on. I listen very carefully and if I hear something I like I'll jot that down and then I'll build it into my own training. So really it's really about constant and evident learning, understanding that no one does it alone. And I've never met anyone in my life who knew everything. But I do know that every person knows one thing that they can do well. And if I need something and that one thing is it, I will contact them and say, look, I don't know about that. want you to teach me if you wouldn't mind. And they'll say, what's the benefits or what's your budget? And I do that too. there's always a benefit to everything. Every cloud has a silver lining. And even when things looked hopeless, I broke my leg and my back and everything. As you know, I was out of it. Utkarsh Narang (09:23.718) Hmm. David (09:46.406) for three years just trying to get my back better. But I met lots of people. And if I may just tell you this story about what I learned. was in Alaska one time on a cruise. There were 300 people who were people like me, distinguished toast masters, toast masters and so on. And we got off the boat cruising in Juneau, one of the cities, and they all went off to look at all the... things that you go to these places to see. I didn't do that. I sort of went to this place that made crepes like thin pancakes, French pancakes. It was a rainy day. They'd all gone off. And there was a group of people in the shelter where I'd gone, I smoked at the time, to light a cigarette. And I lit a cigarette and all of a sudden I'm surrounded by... four or five, what I would call local people, who were probably, had had it lot tougher than we had. You we were travellers and tourists on a cruise. They looked like they needed a meal or something, know, shower or whatever. And I lit a cigarette. They surrounded me and they asked that question. And it happens every time you try and light a cigarette in public. I can you spare a cigarette? said, in their accent. And I said, I can give you a cigarette, I can give you all a cigarette. But what I'd in return is for you to teach me how you say hello, goodbye, and how are you in your language, the Inuit language. You speak in English to me, but I'd like to know. And they did. I recorded it for about, I don't know, 20 minutes. And so I learned to say some of the things they said. And then I could speak with them, which was good for me. Well, I back on the cruise. A couple of my contemporaries said to me, David, why did you waste time with that group of people? Why didn't you come with us? And I said, well, you know, I know you people. I can see you anytime. I'm in same club as you. I can go to conferences. Utkarsh Narang (11:40.464) Hmm. David (12:01.006) That was the only opportunity I might have to speak to Inuits, local indigenous Alaskans. So I seized the opportunity. And I'm a better person because of it. They'll remember me, I'll remember them. And they'll be waiting for me to go there again and give them a cigarette. But I've stopped smoking now. I just like to send them. And it just struck me as odd, you know, that... Utkarsh Narang (12:07.75) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (12:13.606) Beautiful. Yeah. Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (12:20.41) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (12:27.526) Hmm. David (12:28.224) my own friends would question why I would do that. They didn't know me at all. They knew me as well I was in the clubs I go to, but they didn't know me here, inside me, which was important. And they still don't. It's a bit mysterious, and I keep it that way. Utkarsh Narang (12:31.076) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (12:42.118) Correct. Utkarsh Narang (12:46.598) Yeah, you're a man of many faces, David. And I love that story because it shares how when you're traveling, there's more to that place that you travel to than just the touristy spots that there are and how, I think maybe your friends use this word or maybe in sharing this, you're using this, how someone might perceive that this is time being wasted, but it's creating a memory, which then you on a podcast, how many decades later, you're sharing it with the audience. Well, let me, let me take you back to 1953 David. 53. And if my math serves me right, you're about eight years old. If that, if that eight year old David were to come to you right now and he were to have a conversation that David, where did you end up, man? What, what kind of conversation do you think will, will emerge out of that, that dialogue? David (13:20.718) 53. David (13:26.688) I was, David (13:43.456) It's interesting looking back. You know, can't, as you know, you can't join the dots looking forward. You've got to look back, you know. My father was a planning engineer, which I always was very proud of my father for that, because I always thought he built airplanes. Actually what he was was a time and motion manager. Planning engineers looked after time and motion, which is clocks watching the work as making sure they get things done. But it was never spoken about like that. So I learned then that, excuse me, there were euphemisms for words. We say one thing, but what we actually mean is something else. Planning engineer sounds great, know, but he was a clever man. Don't be wrong, he was very good at maths and English and he had lovely speaking voice and he loved poetry and things. But I was interested more in the planning engineer side because he was an engineer. that was a bit like getting yourself and people from your neck of the woods, you know. If you're from India or Sri Lanka or whatever, there's only three jobs you can have according to your parents. You've to be a doctor, an engineer, a lawyer, okay? And so you live in somebody else's life in a lot of ways when that happens, you know, they mean the best. But so my dad kept saying to me, when you grow up, David, you have to have a job, a trade. You've got to be a tradesman. You've got to be a professional in trades. You have to have something to fall back on if things go bad. So I remember he said that. Utkarsh Narang (14:54.011) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (15:12.795) Hmm. David (15:16.574) He was a great sportsman and I remember one day running after him because he was going to play cricket and they were going on a bus to go and play cricket and I was crying because he wouldn't take me with him and there was all these sort of things were going on and I had four other siblings so but he was his own man and he did what he did and he'd say to me you just stay home with mum you stay home with Utkarsh Narang (15:38.787) Mm-hmm. David (15:44.566) I must have heard it but I didn't take it in if you like. But later in life I started thinking about that. He was his own man, he was a family man, he was an educated man, was intelligent man, played a lot of sport. Utkarsh Narang (15:47.481) Hmm. David (15:58.88) As I got older I thought, I wouldn't mind being like that. But he also did things that were interesting, which won't go down there, you know, I don't think he crossed lines, but I think he got close to lines, you know, and I was like that. I was a lot like that growing up. But one of the things I had, which I'd never taken the opportunity of, because he worked for de Havilland, which is now British Aerospace. Utkarsh Narang (16:05.584) Mm. Utkarsh Narang (16:13.894) Hmm. David (16:23.118) He used to bring home these new materials, know, like parts of hoses or plastics. And he worked on the Comet, which was the first jet airline in 1949. So he worked on those things. I was five when he worked on that. He brought home some of this stuff, which was metal, but it would bend. And it was made of lighter materials, but it was stronger. Never thought anything of it, you know. And yet, I think it must have just been absorbed. So if I could speak to my eight-year-old again, I'd say, watch everything. Don't worry about hearing it, or hear it, but don't worry about, you know, intentionally listening. Because through time, it's like your body absorbs it. So hearing and listening are two different things, you know, we can hear all sorts of things. But listening is an attention thing. Utkarsh Narang (17:07.206) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (17:13.979) Wow. Utkarsh Narang (17:18.021) Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. David (17:21.642) I can hear you. But if I listen, I will remember what you're saying. If I just hear what you're saying, there's all the other sounds around that. So I've learned those sorts of things. I know the difference between hearing and listening. And I think part of it I developed because of my training and all the people I've known in life. And part of it was my dad. Because he was Welsh, he was a proud man, he loved the Welsh language. Utkarsh Narang (17:36.944) Hmm. David (17:51.07) I learned a bit of Welsh because he used to watch the news on television in Welsh. I didn't have a clue what they were talking about. Oddly enough, I watch the news in India now, in Hindi, on the TV. I have no idea what they're talking about. However, I watch their body language and I get a gist of what they're saying. Then I ask people, I watched this, did you see this? Yes. What were they talking about? So it's like a... Utkarsh Narang (17:56.816) Mm-hmm. Utkarsh Narang (18:02.043) Mm-hmm. Utkarsh Narang (18:07.344) Mm-hmm. Utkarsh Narang (18:11.418) Wow. Wow. David (18:18.506) It's a way of... A friend of mine wrote a book once called The Platypus Way. Have you seen a platypus in Australia, one you've been to Australia? The platypus is an interesting animal. It's a mammal. And yet it has a beak and it claws and has all sorts of things. It lays eggs and it has live... It's a strange, strange animal. Utkarsh Narang (18:24.326) Mm-hmm. Utkarsh Narang (18:27.916) Not, not yet, not yet. Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (18:36.742) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (18:44.102) Hmm. David (18:45.44) And most people thought it was made up when they first saw one. They thought it was a fake. They thought someone had put it together. And I think that that's what I'm a bit like. Not like the Platypus, but I follow the Platypus way. There's a lot of things going on. It's like, as you know, I was in Bahrain recently with an accredited speaker. He was launching his book. And the book's called You Are the One and Only. And he speaks about it. Utkarsh Narang (18:51.28) Mm-hmm. Utkarsh Narang (18:55.908) Hmm. Tell me more. Utkarsh Narang (19:05.338) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (19:15.046) Hmm. David (19:15.586) People tell you to take your super power and go and follow this lead and that lead. But no matter where you go... The whole of you goes with you. So you are a composite. So the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. And you've got to use them all. And I think that's what I do. I don't just say, right, I don't see myself as a networker or a coacher. I see myself as something I changed my profile the other day where I said a passionate educator. So that's not about personnel or HR or whatever. It's about if you want to learn something, I can teach you. Utkarsh Narang (19:30.02) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (19:46.308) Mmm. David (19:53.414) for me and if I've got the answer I'll give it to you. Won't cost you anything unless I know you're making money then that's what your budget, that sort of thing. But that's what it's about for me. Utkarsh Narang (20:01.222) Got it. Got it. Let me break it down. This is so powerful. So a lot of things you said there and one thing that I want to kind of deep dive with you. I love the idea of being a passionate educator. I think it connects very beautifully to what you said in the earlier part of being curious and how you're 15 up here and in your heart, I think you were even younger. 80 is still far away and love the idea of taking your whole and I'm taking notes while I'm speaking with you because I don't want to let go of anything for our listeners and for myself. The whole of you goes with you wherever you go. And so be that whole self because there's no other way to be. mean, I cannot be anyone else than a better Utkarsh and you cannot be anyone else than a better David. And I think I beautifully love that idea. But here's here's the thought you said somewhere that you watch that Hindi news. You don't understand the language, but you're understanding and absorbing their body language. And just before that, it said that the body absorbs everything. What does that mean, David? Can you unpack that for me? What does what does it mean for the body to absorb the communication? David (21:13.718) Well, for me, this is for me, scientists, biologists, other people, they say the brain works this way, the body works this way and what have you. And that may be true. Utkarsh Narang (21:24.474) Mm-hmm. David (21:29.814) No one's ever cut a brain while we've been alive to decide that, but you know, we know the brain's got all different parts of it. And I've learned those sort of things in the past and I've studied psychology and I did a course on business administration, two years of psychology and science. So there's lots of things I learn and there's lots of things I believe and lots of things I know and there's some things I'm still unsure about, you know. But it seems to me that whatever we do, it's almost like muscle memory. So whether you're listening to something, somebody's saying, something if all you're doing is trying to listen to what they're saying and you're not watching them. Something else my father taught me actually. Never trust a man whose belly isn't rolling when he's laughing. Utkarsh Narang (22:03.59) Hmm. David (22:14.862) So it's that thing about you can hear anything, but you've got to watch the person as well. You know, and you can read books that will tell you, you know, if someone's telling you a lie, they're not looking at you, they're looking sort of sideways. And the eyes do that. Eye movement can tell you a lot of things, you know. So it's about watching how a person moves and different things and... Utkarsh Narang (22:29.446) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (22:35.238) Hmm. David (22:40.232) And when you do that, when I do that, when I watch different programs, and I talk to people all over the world, I've been to India and different Sri Lanka and different places and I like to watch people. So I'm an observer of behavior, if you like. And so I can guess what they're saying. And then when I ask people and they tell me, yeah, they were talking about that sort of thing. Utkarsh Narang (22:56.954) Hmm. David (23:01.582) I think, yeah, see, so up here and bodily I'm learning things. So a lot of people are talking to you, but how could you possibly understand what they're saying? no matter how different we are ethnically or gender or whatever, we do a lot of things similarly, you know, and if we can observe that, then we can observe that. So observe to absorb, I guess that's what I'm saying. And the brain is, you know, it's that thing, just to finish that off. Utkarsh Narang (23:06.982) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (23:26.073) Love that. David (23:30.59) Our body is just an empty vessel, but it holds all the organs that we operate under. But we can't move those things unless our brain comes into action. So we have a thought, the brain comes into action, I've got to walk over there, it tells me move your left leg, move your right leg. It's not shouting it to me, but it's the way that it works. And I can do all that. Utkarsh Narang (23:51.204) Hmm. Hmm. David (23:53.644) But there's another part that's in that space in the middle and Victor Frankl talked about it, know, the man's search for meaning. Somebody says something and you don't like it. You'll either respond or react. And if you only had your body and your brain, that's when you get into trouble, that's where conflict happens. But there's something governing that, that's called the intellect, so that's in the middle. And that's that kind of time you've got to decide. Utkarsh Narang (24:00.72) love that. Utkarsh Narang (24:05.071) Hmm. David (24:21.666) what's happening here, what's happening there. It's the same thing. So whilst we understand the brain and the body, the intellect is a kind of concept in a lot of ways, but we know it's there, we believe it's there. And it governs. And many of the Hindu and Sufis around the world talk about that, especially in things like Vuddhansara and other things. The intellect is the governor. The body moves according to the brain's demands, in a sense, but the intellect decides. Utkarsh Narang (24:24.518) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (24:43.674) Hmm. Yeah. David (24:51.6) what's good, what's bad, that's also. So that's what I meant by that. Does that make sense to you? Utkarsh Narang (24:53.37) Yeah. Beautiful. Absolutely. So observe to observe, to absorb. That's what I'm, that's the big takeaway. And I, and I understand how watching someone move and talk and, have eye contact versus not good, good tell a lot of things. But as you're speaking about this, you know, there's these two parts that are emerging for me and I'm always in the audience of the podcast is, is in that way, but I'm also selfish to learn for myself. David (25:01.377) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (25:21.286) The one thing that's coming to mind, David, is this curiosity that you spoke about. I have an hypothesis where I feel like in the way that content is being thrown at us and consumed, it's not letting us have the space of being curious. And what I feel is challenged as a parent as to how do you really ignite that curiosity, ignite that spark in a teenage boy, I have a 14 year old and 11 year old. How do you ignite that curiosity within them when they're so absorbed by the highly addictive and stimulating content that's around them? So what's your thought on helping others develop curiosity? David (26:07.982) Well, it's interesting because through our talks in the past, you when you come to a party and all these things, coaching sessions for TEDx and stuff. My wife and I looked after children, full-time, what my wife did. I worked for an organization, but we lived with the children. We did that for 20 years, six children. Well, it weren't our children. They were out-of-home care children. Not foster, but what they call family group homes that are off-the-profit. And children are... 300 years ago, by the way, there was no concept of children. You know that? Utkarsh Narang (26:50.02) Hmm. No, I did not. David (26:53.6) They were little people. And that's what children are. They're individuals but they're smaller than us. They haven't got the benefit of learning the languages and all the other things we've got. But they're little people. Utkarsh Narang (27:10.694) Hmm. David (27:13.486) Children came into being in a lot of ways because of work. 300 years ago, 350 years ago, there was no concept of work. People didn't go out to work. People worked around where they lived. So they grew vegetables and they cut grass and they milk cows and things like that. And that's when children and other things started to creep in with the rules around things. In the West, Utkarsh Narang (27:17.19) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (27:38.95) Hmm. David (27:43.948) We've got rules against the exploitation of children. We have big services and not-for-profits and so on looking after that. But they didn't exist three or four hundred years ago. They were little people then. So if you listen to Jonathan Swift, know, Gulliver's Travels and all that sort of stuff where the little people tied him down, it's a metaphorical story as well as a story, you know. So what I'm getting at is to understand children you have to be where they're at. You can't be where you're at to start with. It's the same with anything. I was a youth worker for a while, I did different things. You cannot teach anybody anything unless at first you're where they're at. So your children are smaller than you. I know you've got children. Utkarsh Narang (28:29.99) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (28:33.926) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (28:39.782) Mm. David (28:40.174) I'm not sure I've met them, I don't think I have, but I've met some of the children. So first of all you have to be where the children are at. And children are smaller than you. So if you want to engage them, you have to be the same size as them. There was a movie on the TV last night, I'd never seen it before, it was just grazing. And was Matt Damon was in it. It was called Downsizing. Utkarsh Narang (28:43.366) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Utkarsh Narang (28:49.254) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (28:57.35) Got it. David (29:08.086) And little people in, I'd never seen it but I was watching for a few minutes but that's the thing. So first of all you have to be where they're at. It's the same in work as well. Before you can engage a team member, because we're all biased people in a lot of ways, you if you're married or you're single, if you play sports or you don't, all these people are in teams around the world. Before you can start teaching them as a manager or as a leader, you've got to know who they are. Utkarsh Narang (29:11.397) Right. Utkarsh Narang (29:16.294) Mmm. Utkarsh Narang (29:25.542) Mm. Utkarsh Narang (29:35.792) Hmm. Hmm. David (29:37.612) So you always, when you want to speak to children, always sit on the floor. That's what I learned working with children. You've got to be down with them on the floor. Children, when they're very young, they don't play with toys. You give them a toy, they play with the box. Have you noticed that? Well, they look at the toy, which is all flashy and all, you know, polished gold and stuff, but they play with the box. You have to do that. Utkarsh Narang (29:41.648) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (29:45.797) No. Utkarsh Narang (29:55.024) Hmm. Yep. Utkarsh Narang (30:01.838) Yeah. Yep. Hmm. David (30:05.71) So I say to the child, I'll put you this because this will be good for you, this calculator will get you to be a scientist and you can have a good job in IT. They're not interested in that. Why would a boxer came in? What is the backside of the pack? So be where they're at. It's not like you've got to be where they're at forever. But to engage them you need to be where they're at. Same with people. That's why I, to go back a little bit, that's why I, when I'm in other countries, Utkarsh Narang (30:15.408) They don't Utkarsh Narang (30:23.44) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (30:27.525) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (30:33.84) Mm-hmm. David (30:34.19) I want to go to all the places that's advertised, you all the attractions. I can see them on the television. I can see them in the brochures. I want to be with the people. Utkarsh Narang (30:44.304) Hmm. Hmm. David (30:46.286) because that's where you see the real place, you know. And I go off the beaten track and so on. So it's a bit like that really, you know. So I've got, when I've got one son, as you know, he was admitted the other night. And he comes from a different place in Australia. As I do, I come from Britain, you know my wife does as well. He was, four years old, was different to the children we looked after. But he was bright in his own way. Utkarsh Narang (30:50.662) got it. Utkarsh Narang (30:57.925) Yeah. David (31:16.27) except he spoke Spanish. So you could see when you watched him, same with some people I know in India and other places, when they're trying to be fluent in English. But they don't need to be, you know. A person's accent is their mother tongue, you know. They almost accept that because that's what makes them. The dialects and other things are different. But you could see when he was speaking or you were listening, you could almost see the clock, the... gullas going round, where he's listening to it Spanish and changing it to English and that sort of stuff. And I watched him carefully. And now I watch him, he's 38 now, and I watch him and his own son. And he's doing similar things to what did, and he's always hugging him and holding him. That's what children want, the most precious gift. Utkarsh Narang (32:09.989) Yeah. David (32:12.994) you can give to children. It's similar to what you can give to other people. And that's time. You know, they're not interested so much in gifts. Well, they are. know, they want what their friends want or what they've seen in shop windows. But give them time. Best gift you'll ever give anyone. Utkarsh Narang (32:30.054) Ageless, ageless wisdom, David. I love what you said. Children are like little people. And if you were to just kind of zoom it out, I know we spoke about this. I started speaking about parenting, but this could be for everyone, right? You step into their shoes or be where they are at before you disagree or before you have that conflict. Because if you were to all start to look at the world from each other's perspectives. David (32:45.58) That's right. Utkarsh Narang (32:58.298) conflict in the world will hopefully disappear. And then time, time is such a, give them more strawberries because that's what life is all about. The strawberries, the moments, the celebrations that we can get with each other. Absolutely. David (33:13.134) Can I just say that conflict itself is neutral. We're human. We each have our uniqueness. know, we're 98 % similar in our makeup in sense of organs and shell and everything you know. Same with female, male, whatever gender, know, non-biased. So we have a lot of similarities and we all inherit the one planet. But we don't all see things the same way. Because we're We have biases. And it surprises me that leaders of teams don't realise that straight away. It's conflict. Conflict is a neutral thing. It's what people are reacting or responding to and what their own biases are that's creating it when it gets a bit out of hand. If only... Utkarsh Narang (33:45.19) Hmm Utkarsh Narang (34:08.283) Yeah. David (34:09.974) and we could look at world wars but they're horrible and they're drastic and everything else. The people leading that are basically, in my view, narcissists and so on. But if people could understand that we all come to a situation, most things are situational anyway, if we come to a situation with our own thoughts and our own views and our own opinions, And if something goes wrong in a team or anyone else, it's not about... We call it conflict. Or we say, you made me angry and you did this and you did None of that's real. If people start to argue, it's because of what they're going through themselves in the moment. So they're feeling angry, so you're not going to get the better of me. So I think the conflict, people need to be able to deal with it in a way that says, Utkarsh Narang (34:50.086) Hmm. David (35:07.092) I don't want argue with you here. I'm trying to understand what it is you're saying. And I just want you to know that, well, I don't know if you saw my post the other night where I said an acquaintance was telling me about some gossip that's going around about me. And he took a bit of a delight in telling me. I didn't write that anything, but, and I said, Utkarsh Narang (35:26.662) Hmm. Hmm. David (35:37.164) the person that's doing the gossip is going to be furious when he receives my lawyer's left it at that. Because I need to stop that because it destroys people's reputations. It takes years to build one, takes minutes to get rid of it. And the reason that's happening is because the other person who's creating this has got some issue. But I'll back it in, the issue is not with me, the issue is with himself. He's done something in a moment but he wasn't feeling it. There's only four states we ever get in. Utkarsh Narang (36:09.2) Hmm. Hmm. David (36:17.23) And to boil it all down, you can take all the tunnels and all the books and everything. But we end up in, at any one time, we're in one of four states, you know, thinking, you We're either bad, we're sad, we're mad, or we're glad Any one of them. And if you can remember them, and you can just check yourself whenever you're speaking to anyone, even if somebody has said something that triggers something in you that you want to fight them. Utkarsh Narang (36:50.64) Hmm. David (36:52.706) Go to the space between, as Victor Frankl says. Just think about it. What temperaments are you in? If you're feeling angry, don't say anything. Just wait. In fact, silence is more powerful than retorting in a lot of ways, you know. And when you're asking people, it's just be truthful, like I said. So if I have a problem with you, I could say, look, who cares? Something you said the other day, I'm not sure... Utkarsh Narang (36:55.355) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (36:59.749) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (37:04.614) I Utkarsh Narang (37:08.294) Absolutely. David (37:21.612) what it actually meant, but what it triggered in me was this, that if it were true that you were saying about me, I would feel disrespected and I don't want to feel that. So, can you explain to me what was happening for you at the time? Now that would get a conversation started. That would deflect conflict, as we know conflict. But, if I said to you, what you said to me other night, Utkarsh Narang (37:26.662) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (37:35.109) Yeah. David (37:46.304) If you say it again, I'm gonna smash you. You know, that's where it comes in. Yeah. Does that make sense? Utkarsh Narang (37:49.466) Hmm. Yeah. It absolutely does. So it's a lot of, a lot of things to, unpack again on the four states. I love that. So bad, sad, mad, or glad. And I think as I was listening to these four states and noting them down, for me, the question also comes up David is that in which state do I want to be most of the times? And that's again, a choice because what David would say to me. David (38:03.671) moment. Utkarsh Narang (38:19.246) Ultimately, the choice is mine to be glad, mad, sad or bad. And if I were to choose to be bad, then I'm going to retort against it and have a conversation and have a conflict and have an argument. But if I choose to be glad, then I'm going to say that's up to David. It's up to him. He's 18 years old. Let him think what he wants to think. That's one thing. David (38:34.284) Yeah. But it's a gift to you though, it's not, I mean I'm saying it, if you accept it, you accept it like a gift. Do with it what you will. Utkarsh Narang (38:40.41) Correct. Correct. Correct. The other thing that comes up is what you're saying on conflict being neutral and how if you were to, I think it's the wisdom of the other person that will also matter, David, because I've seen this time and again that people when in a state of conflict, they get too attached to their egos and emotions because they, at some point in that conversation or conflict, end up not even being about that conflict. And it just ends up being about my ego or my emotions and how am I at a higher level? I think that's another thing that I want us as society to challenge that can we all be at the same place? Because when I talk to you, I feel it's, it's, it's a conversation amongst equals. It's a conversation where both of us are growing, both of us are learning, both of us are enjoying strawberries. And that's all that matters. Yeah. Yeah. But it's, David (39:38.478) But there's no threat though. A lot of it's through with threat as well. Remember enjoying the strawberries, we're enjoying life, you know, so, and there's no threat. know, when they're gone, we'll get some more, that sort of stuff. But if you look at it on a bigger scale, generally the person that fights back the hardest, Utkarsh Narang (39:42.918) It's hot. David (40:03.406) may have had some trauma as a child, may have been conditioned, know, so many hours ago you got to fight back, got to fight, grown men don't cry. We're conditioned to believe all sorts of what it can only be said, a lot of it is probably best not to teach your children, you know, that a child is an individual as we are. But we're conditioned from the minute we're born, you know, by our parents and by our teachers and by our work colleagues and our bosses and so on. Utkarsh Narang (40:22.244) Yeah. Yeah. David (40:32.686) that life has to be a certain way, you know. But there's no one best way to do anything. It's a bit like AI, artificial intelligence. People are scrambling. We've had COVID, that was bad enough. Never got AI and people are really scared of it. But it didn't just start yesterday. It started in 1962. It's been around for 62 years and people are fearful of it now. Utkarsh Narang (40:54.982) 60 years. Yeah. David (41:00.108) But then you've got to look at why and part of it is Australia was the lucky country. had, you know, this was the best country in the world. We had all the resources, we were doing all the trade with other countries. The people were tall, bronzed, Anzac and it was brilliant. But a lot of that was kind of based on a legend, you know. The Anzacs, know, the diggers, all this, that's history. However... Utkarsh Narang (41:10.374) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (41:18.757) Hmm. David (41:29.644) It's not like that now. Australia is no better a country than Britain or America or... They've all got their problems. What we haven't got that we used to have, you know, the shield be right attitude, fix things in the past. It's like I say to some people I speak to groups, any leader can lead an organisation when nothing's happening. It's like I say that leadership's like seamanship. Utkarsh Narang (41:43.942) Mm. Utkarsh Narang (41:51.27) Yeah. David (41:58.734) It's about skills, it's not about titles and you said the same thing yourself. It doesn't give you power. But when the sea is calm, anyone can sail a boat. When the storms are erupting and the clouds and the lightning and the weather's bad, you need top people for that, the best leaders. So leaders are a bit like, leadership's like seamanship. Today, however, we've got a different mindset, you know. Utkarsh Narang (42:09.894) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (42:19.91) Thank Utkarsh Narang (42:27.888) Hmm. David (42:28.844) The end of the, you know, what I'm saying is the industrial age is over. We're now in the information technology age, even past that. We've got a new group of people who are blaming people like me. You know, it was all right for you. You had cheap houses, you had this, you had that. What if I get it? Utkarsh Narang (42:34.373) Hmm. David (42:51.582) Our wages were way more lower than yours are today. can't say for you, because you're like me, you earn your own money in a sense. No other company pays you, do they? We pay ourselves in all the ways, with what we do. So they're taking one part of things and laying the blame on this group of people, but they're not looking at the other side. For example, when I was eight, there were five children. My mother had three part-time jobs. My father worked away. Utkarsh Narang (42:54.982) Right. Utkarsh Narang (42:59.814) Absolutely. Utkarsh Narang (43:12.55) Yeah. David (43:21.482) She looked after us. We grew up okay. But our community looked after all the children when the parents went away. That isn't around in our country today, in some of the cities. In the countryside it was. But people moved out of the countryside for the factories in the cities. China is a good example of that. you know, India, when I was in India, I surprised. was watching some ladies with their saris. Utkarsh Narang (43:25.21) Mmm. Utkarsh Narang (43:33.604) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (43:40.826) Yeah. Correct. David (43:51.534) picking weeds in grass while people mowed. I watched ladies in Chennai carrying baskets of mortar on their heads walking across building sites because it was a community thing. We don't have that here because we've got rules here that say you can't have a dirt. You've got, you know, what about occupation, health and safety and stuff? It's almost like that's in the, the countryside. Farmers were the same. My uncle had a farm. Utkarsh Narang (43:59.078) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (44:05.712) Correct. Yeah. Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (44:16.399) Absolutely. David (44:20.302) It wasn't as safe there. It wasn't as safe outside the city, but the city is over regular. So all I'm saying is, if you're going to have a look at me and say, okay, it's all right for you, you bought a house for $25,000. I did, you're quite right. And it built, and that's what it was. And you sold one for 550. I did too, and things had moved. But when I bought the house for $25,000, I was on $80 a week. Utkarsh Narang (44:21.958) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (44:40.196) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (44:44.848) Correct. Correct. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. And I think the larger challenge also David is that I think we've shifted a lot in what we need and what we want. The wants of the society because of all the advertisement, the products that are available, the technology, the social media are extreme. And I have this conversation with my little one when we go to Coles multiple times. David (44:46.038) I wasn't on what my son's on, but being a tram driver, he's on a lot more than that. You know what mean? So it's all relative. Utkarsh Narang (45:13.048) In the first few weeks when we were here in Australia, and it's been only what, 22 months of being in Australia, just a good reminder, he would ask for this candy and that candy and that pack of chips and this coke. And I kept telling him, do you want it or do you need it? If you need it, you get it. But if you want it, then think twice. And I think that's all we all, we all, they're little people, but we are big people. We need to also go through this. Do we really need the next big Tesla? Do we need the next? And I'm not against Elon Musk in any way, but do we need those things? If you do, and if you can own it, go buy it. And then you don't have to complain because if you're buying a Tesla, you can buy a million dollar house. But if not, then you need to ask yourself. Fascinating. What a, conversation. I think we've covered a lot of ground, David, but I end the conversation with, asking the guest this question. David (46:02.766) All Utkarsh Narang (46:07.558) And this question is a little fuzzy here, so you'll have to help me answer this. That if the 80 year old David, which is sitting right in front of me right now, if the David from future were to come to you right now, say when you turn 100, because as we record this, folks, today is January 7th. Yesterday, January 6th, if my grandfather would have been alive, David, he would have been 100 years old. He passed away at 95, if I remember correctly, 95 or 96. but he would have been 100. And I was thinking of him yesterday and I was thinking how what he did in his lifetime still impacts me and my family while we are here in this very distant land where he could not have imagined that his grandson would ever be in the soil. And he had a deep attachment. He was one of those people back home in India, David, who always wanted, when will I get my David (46:38.84) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (47:06.254) heir to my throne kind of a grandfather. And when I was born, remember he was elated that heir to his throne has been born. So as we look at this question and modify it a little bit, what would David from 100 years old 2045 or 2044 look back to you and advise you how to live about the next two decades? David (47:14.39) ahem David (47:31.276) I think I started on that journey probably 20 years ago thinking about those things maybe a bit further back. My son is 38 now, or he will be next month. My father died, he asked me about it. My father actually passed away on the 8th of January, which is tomorrow, in 1999. And my son, because I'd written a bit of a memorial thing, my son Oscar said to me, he had a hell of a weekday, that week. I said, how? He said, well, was New Year's Eve, And he did his Churchill impression. That's what my dad used to do. He used have a cigar and used to take Churchill off. It was really good what he did. He said, had New Year's Eve with the family, Dad. He was home for the, I said, yeah. He said it was his birthday on the 4th, so like four days later, three days later. And he would have had a good time. And I know he liked whiskey and dry and stuff. And he did, you know. And then four days later, he died, Dad. Utkarsh Narang (48:30.214) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (48:34.16) Mm. Mm. David (48:38.318) So it's a hell of a week. It's eight days really, Daddy said, but eight days, stick with me. But what my son does do, he tells people, my dad's going to live to be 100 because he's got this young mind and he keeps himself fit. And he hasn't always done that. You know he used to smoke and he used to drink to excess and womanize and all that sort of thing. Never, ever done drugs. Never, except cigarettes, of course, but I've never, ever been anywhere near a list of drugs. Utkarsh Narang (49:07.387) Peace. David (49:08.142) But I live well, I eat well and I have this curious mind and my son is, you know, tells people, my dad will live to be 100 My dad, yeah, he's fit, he's this, he's that, the other thing. But his dad was also grumpy. I used to get really agitated by what was going on. I was married, as you know, for 40 odd years. And the last 10 years have been a kind of scattering of many feelings for me. and it's taken me a long time to come to terms with it. I was married for 40 odd years to the loveliest, gorgeous wife and she was a very strong person, my rock if you like, and his mum of course. And when she died, I didn't know what my life was going to, I couldn't handle it for a while and I screamed on the nights in the hospital. and I went outside screaming. I blamed the doctors and I blamed life and I blamed... I was so angry and God and you know... and I was like that... but I never cried. It's weird, on the night I never cried. I was angry, you know. And a couple of days later my wife's best friend came to our house with a letter that my wife had written to me. Not to Oscar but to me. She wrote a special one to me. and started to read it to me and then I boiled my eyes out, you know. However, in the last 10 years I've become a different person in a sense, a different temperament person. Had you known me 10 years ago, you wouldn't have known me like this, but I was more ambitious and all that. I'm still ambitious for myself and my family. So steadily over 10 years I've changed. I've changed my impression of life, I've changed my impression of people. You know, I have the circle now. I have a wide circle, but I also have an inner circle. You're one of the people in it, as you know. And I've learned that if the circle that you're in is not inspiring you, you're not in a circle, you're in a cage. And you need to get out of that. And I've gradually got out of these circles where I was, you know. David (51:24.44) But by being someone who travels, by being able to connect with other people, I've got this kind of group of people around me. And I'm just one of them who do for me what hopefully I do for them. And that is that we all lift up and inspire each other. That wasn't happening for a long time. But then I was married, I had a wife and a child at home with all these sorts of things. focus is on that at the time. I've got more time now to focus on me. I've got more time to travel. I've got more time to do all sorts of things and be a Ted X coach and all these things which came to me from blue. I mean, I don't advertise what I do. I didn't even know how to charge for what I did for a long time. When people ask me now, can you do this? I say, what's your budget for that? If they tell me they've got no money, I'll say, we'll do it for free. And I will. But if they've got trillions, I'll say, well, let's do it for this much. So I'm not worried about money in that sense. I'd like a bit more, we all would. I've got enough to be comfortable. But that's what I'm saying. So it's really, it's a progressive thing. I'm a constant never-ending learner. I'm 15 or 15, so I've plenty of time to learn what I need to do. I wanted to be a carpenter or a mathematician when I was young. My father had other ideas. He said, you start work on Monday, son, you're going to be an apprentice printer. I didn't want to be a printer, but his mate who we played snooker with owned a printing company and needed an apprentice. My dad gave me to him. That's what parents do, they condition you. I didn't like, you know, I was an apprentice, but I went to college. I didn't like the work very much. I did it well, but I didn't like it very much. But I went to Liverpool School of Art. Utkarsh Narang (53:08.4) Hmm. David (53:21.89) for five years. Guess who was there when I was there? John Lennon from the Beatles. I got to meet him. I got to meet a lot of the Liverpool bands. So you see, you may not like something, but it becomes good things if you're observant. I used to have a drink with John Lennon and his first wife Cynthia at the Grape's Hotel in Liverpool. How many people get that opportunity? Utkarsh Narang (53:27.524) Fuck. Utkarsh Narang (53:39.283) Mmm. Utkarsh Narang (53:49.755) Benny. David (53:50.414) because of something that I didn't want. I didn't want to be a printer. I wanted to be carpenter. I wanted to be on a building site where I could whistle at the girls going past. But I was locked inside this Dickensian type factory, you know, with paraffin and printer's ink and dirty hands and all that sort of stuff. But I learned a lot from it. All the typefaces that we use today, I learned all about them. I know all the type sizes and fonts and all that. I knew all that when I was 15, because I learned it all. Utkarsh Narang (54:01.968) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (54:11.878) Hmm. David (54:19.414) typographical design. So never look at something like it's the end. Every ending is a new beginning as you know. So just stay open and stay, you know, be open to everything. sorry. Accept everything. Be open to everything. There's a saying, be open to everything and close to nothing and accept what happens. And if you don't win, you'll learn. You you hear that talked about. So I never used to think like that, but I do think like that now and I've thought like that for a long time. But last 20 years, since my wife died especially, because there's a need there. So it's not a want, it's a need to... Utkarsh Narang (54:48.261) Absolutely. Utkarsh Narang (54:52.739) Mm. David (55:00.75) express myself a different way because there is a bias. So you're married with children. Nancy's best friend, Nancy Marr's best friend, her best friend who you met the night we were at the party, Marl, she told me just after my wife died, she said, David, things will change for you now. I said, what do mean? She said, well, David, you're a smart guy, you know, you're not a bad looking bloke and you know, you've got a few bob and you're intelligent, but you're single. Utkarsh Narang (55:12.612) Right. Yeah. David (55:30.358) So all the invites you used to get to go and see people with Nancy, you won't get them anymore. Because married people don't want you at their house single. Especially the guys, because if they're lazy and you're not, the wife might be... And she said it like that, and I'm saying, don't be silly. But it's true. I've never had any image from the married couples I knew when Nancy was alive. Isn't that weird? But I've been out with them... Utkarsh Narang (55:50.448) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (55:54.929) the end. David (55:58.434) whether they've been a group or a pub or something for an anniversary of somebodies or a funeral or whatever but I've never had the same invitations as a single person. So it's that sort of thing as well. So you have to move. You progress upwards, you don't progress downwards, you know. And I want to leave you with this last bit of advice. Okay, well not advice, but this last thing that's really, I'm thinking more and more about these days. Utkarsh Narang (56:06.278) Hmm. Hmm. It changes. Utkarsh Narang (56:19.974) Mm-hmm. Utkarsh Narang (56:24.256) Cool. David (56:27.17) People don't want you to succeed in life, you know, don't you? Your parents do and your friends and I do and so on. But the people who are in competition, particularly, you know, on LinkedIn, they might want to lift you up because, you know, never talk down the industry, for example. You've all got to talk about the same thing. But they don't want you to get in front of them. And the crazy part is, it's not that they want what you've got. They just don't want you to have it. That's what competition's about a lot of ways. So really, we can all have everything we want and all the money that was ever in the world is still there. It's just in different places and Elon Musk owns most of it. He's bought governments, he's bought, you know... Utkarsh Narang (57:01.734) f- David (57:19.286) Things change, but there's always been the richest man in the world and the poorest. But the thing, the truth of it all is, is you've just got to be wise enough and watch well enough and be a bit innovative and so on. And say, yeah, I can do this. And you go on and listen to all these different people who do podcasts and other things. And they've all got ideas. Utkarsh Narang (57:22.534) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (57:36.102) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (57:44.922) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. David (57:48.91) And if you had a dollar for everyone that's offered you a book and all this, you'd be a very rich man. And you can't do it alone. You've got to have a group around you. But remember that. The circle you build around you, you know, you can say, you you are the same as the five people. That's a great cliche and all that, it's part of it too. But the circle that you mix with is only a circle while you're inspired. You're not inspired. It's a cage. You'd be there forever. Utkarsh Narang (57:53.487) Absolutely. Utkarsh Narang (58:05.722) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (58:10.534) Hmm. Yeah. with the gauge. I love. David (58:19.48) But I don't believe that's true of you. I think you've seen what you needed with your wife and your children and you came here. You still go back to do some work and you're still connected there as I am to Britain because I was over there recently while they're alive. But yeah, that's what it's all about for me. So I've really enjoyed this conversation. Utkarsh Narang (58:42.234) Same here, I've loved it. And so many pearls of wisdom. You've sprinkled your gold dust on the podcast. I really appreciate it, David. To all the listeners, if you've listened to this conversation once, I think go back, get your notepad because I had mine and I was taking notes. And this final thought from David, I think if your circle is not inspiring, it becomes a cage. We'll leave you with that. If you're watching this on YouTube, do like, share, and subscribe. And if you're on any other podcast, then... David (58:48.942) That's what I do. Utkarsh Narang (59:11.743) podcast platforms and do leave a comment. We would love to have this wisdom from David go viral. Thanks so much David for your time today. David (59:19.566) Thank you very much. Thank you.