Utkarsh Narang (00:00.77) What you can do is try to look at the camera instead of looking at my face, which is really hard, which is, which is really hard, but we'll both try because I also lean into looking at like what, how Claudia is feeling. So, but wherever you can try to look into the camera when you're, when you're speaking. Amazing. Here we go. Welcome to another episode of the ignitedneurons podcast. I'm stoked about this conversation today because my hypothesis is that today we'll speak about. Claudia Fatone (00:05.984) Okay. Claudia Fatone (00:15.714) the camera. Alright, sounds good. Utkarsh Narang (00:30.188) women's rights, we'll broaden that into human rights. And then hopefully through this conversation, we'll all get to learn from Claudia as to how we can make this a better world for ourselves and for the future generations. Claudia, welcome to the conversation. How are you today? Claudia Fatone (00:45.486) Yeah, I'm good, thank you. Thanks for having me. Utkarsh Narang (00:48.138) Looking forward to the conversation and as I do a little bit of research on the the guess that I have, I can see that you're a distinguished leader in Australia in the space of social justice and rights. But you know, where we begin our conversation because we want to kind of go deep in as soon as we begin is that if that eight year old Claudia, the little girl growing up wherever she was, if that eight year old were to come and meet you right now, what kind of a conversation will emerge? Claudia Fatone (01:17.678) Wonderful. Well, eight-year-old Claudia grew up in Reservoir, which is in the northern suburbs of Melbourne. And I think it would absolutely have to be a conversation around sport. I had a very strong interest and still do growing up following the Carlton Football Club. So it was the AFL men's team because back then women didn't have that exposure to playing football that they do now. So very much, you know, this was the mid 80s. So Carlton were pretty competitive back then. So I think there'd be a conversation around footy and probably cricket as well, because I had then and still do have a strong interest in cricket. So, you know, the Australian men's team was who I followed when I was eight and, you know, the West Indies were pretty good team back then. I think there'd be, you know, conversation centered around sport. Utkarsh Narang (01:52.322) Mm-hmm. Utkarsh Narang (02:08.43) 100%. Utkarsh Narang (02:12.684) Yeah. And the World Cup in 83 was when India got to beat West Indies. So yeah, what a beautiful moment. But that's really fascinating. And I always play this role of the devil's advocate as someone who does not understand the world that you are in fully. my questions might seem, Utkarsh, what are you talking about? But they're coming from a vantage point that let's explore this deeper. And so my question is, in those 80s, right? And I've grown in India for about 35 years of my life and I find it fascinating that how there's this stereotype, right? That women slash girls sports do not connect really well because as soon as you think of a daughter, your mind and I'm going back minus 20 years. So not the current state. So what was it about your parents, the environment that you had that allowed you to explore these interests? And as soon as you're thinking about the eight year old self, the sports Claudia Fatone (03:01.112) Yes. Utkarsh Narang (03:11.978) in you is coming out. Claudia Fatone (03:14.562) Yeah, great question. I guess to sort of explain, I was born in Italy. So that's where myself and my three sisters were all born. But mum and dad originally met here in Australia. So dad came out from Italy in the 60s and mum met him here. she, Anglo-Australian, grew up in Reservoir and she really had the love of cricket and football, which I think was interesting because she was the youngest of five girls. and had lost her father at quite a young age. And I think from what I understand, her interest being the youngest was often down to her sister's partners, boyfriends and then husbands who had had interest in football and cricket. So really growing up in Reservoir, know, Mum was the predominant parent in our life to a certain extent because Dad worked very many hours, long hours. And so He didn't really being Italian have much of an interest at all in AFL or cricket, being more sort of Australian based sports. And so really it was through mum that our interest for myself and my younger sisters, my older sister has absolutely no interest in sports. So she avoided that plague, I guess. But yeah, so we just grew up with mum. She put the cricket on the radio, so listening to ABC radio and then she would want to go and would take us to AFL matches. Utkarsh Narang (04:15.192) Hmm. Claudia Fatone (04:40.558) That's really where that love of sport came from. Utkarsh Narang (04:46.094) How interesting is that because you spoke about your mother having five sisters, so five sisters in all, and that's one part of the family and she's the youngest. And so her influence is the boyfriend and the husbands of the elder sisters. And then she meets your dad here. And then because she's playing the cricket commentary on the radio, the environment is what in a way started to shape you. Would that be fair for me to say and assume? Claudia Fatone (04:58.702) Yeah. Claudia Fatone (05:13.504) Absolutely, know, as you just children, you spend a long time at home with your parents and your siblings. And that's my recollection of summers, you know, the ABC radio was on if mom was outside. She liked gardening, so she might have it on or we might watch it if I was on TV. And then, you know, she did take us to, as I said, both, both certainly footy, but even cricket games, you know, one day, one day matches at the MCG test matches. So I just was always around, you know, always listening or watching the sports footy and cricket, also she had an interesting tennis. So, you know, we would, I remember growing up, you know, attend the Australian Open, get ground passes and just wander around with my sisters watching the tennis. So yeah, it is your environment and what you're exposed to, I think that can influence your interests. My older sister, you know, interestingly didn't pick up that, she, you know, she had other interests. So certainly myself and I've got younger twin sisters. Utkarsh Narang (05:43.704) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (06:01.144) Hmm. Claudia Fatone (06:09.762) so technically the middle child. Yeah, we all grew up sort of enjoying sport. Utkarsh Narang (06:11.416) Mm. Utkarsh Narang (06:15.128) Amazing, amazing. And as you as you grew up, like how did that journey go on? Like how has your relationship with sports over the years reframed and reformed? Claudia Fatone (06:24.214) Yeah, look, it's been interesting. I've had a great interest and love of sport and connection to sport, both as a player and then later, so certainly as a spectator and then later as a player of cricket and a volunteer and then, you know, working in cricket and then again, as a volunteer on the Cricket Victoria board. I think I've had at times a bit of a love-hate relationship with men's sport in particular. Utkarsh Narang (06:50.03) Hmm Claudia Fatone (06:51.726) because I think as you, you know, as I got older and really began to understand that gender was going to, my gender was going to make a difference of my interest in, in sport. So to give you, you know, one of my earliest recollections when I was at primary school in grade five, we had some, think old Collingwood AFL players were to come to the school to conduct a footy clinic. And I was so excited thinking I was going to get the opportunity to, you know, participate and Our school principal determined that the grade five and six boys could go out into the playground and participate in the football clinic and the grade five and six girls were to sit inside the classroom and learn the rules of netball. And I think that was my first sort of real exposure that my gender was going to make a difference and not in a good way. And so I think, you know, that probably lighted a bit of a fire in me around gender equality and, and, and access to whatever sporting interests women and girls are interested in. Utkarsh Narang (07:39.63) Mm. Claudia Fatone (07:50.486) that equality of access and participation. So I think then as I've grown, you know, sometimes with the behaviour of some of the sort of male athletes and the lack of exposure and support for women athletes, I think, yeah, it's been a bit of a love hate relationship at times, but I've always tried to do what I can to really promote the fact that sport is a wonderful thing for people to be involved in, whether it's men, women, gender diverse people. Utkarsh Narang (08:06.723) Hmm. Claudia Fatone (08:19.79) It's great for community, it's great for mental and physical health, and there really should be no barriers to participation. We should be ensuring that the whole community, if they're interested, should be able to have access and opportunity. Utkarsh Narang (08:23.032) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (08:28.6) Yeah. Yeah. Wow. As a young child in grade five and six to be A, going through that experience and feeling almost like that my gender is going to be, is not going to allow me to have that footy clinic is fascinating and powerful. But then how you kind of thought about it as you grew up is also how you seen this evolve. Like Australia of the 80s where this was the truth and maybe also early 90s. When do you think the real shift happened for the world where it became more open to that that sports should be should be anyone's opportunity? Claudia Fatone (09:08.27) think probably, you know, probably the 2000s was really when I think I started to see that shift. had post university, I've said post high school, I did a Bachelor of Commerce but majoring in sport management. So it's really interesting. I went from a sort of coed primary school to an all girls high school and then to a a university environment where the course that I was in was more males than females because of, think, the sport management aspect. And so I think, you know, back then, you know, there wasn't a lot of exposure for women's sports. Probably netball was the big one that you saw. And outside of the Olympics, I think, you know, when the Olympics and Commonwealth Games were on, there was great exposure for women athletes. But outside of that, it really, there wasn't anything there. and I think probably, you know, the, maybe that's this sort of, achievements of Kathy Freeman and, and, the sort of, think about the Sydney Olympic games and the pro and the success of women athletes. And I think by that stage, I was sort of working in the sport of cricket and seeing a little bit of a shift that, probably initially was an economic driver that people realized that. probably the changing diversity of the Australian population meant that perhaps a lot of people newly arrived coming to Australia weren't necessarily going to have that automatic connection to cricket. think that's the sort of Southeast Asian populations I think would, but there are a lot of people coming from countries that had no interest in cricket. And so I think I could see sort of people sort of thinking about, wow, well, we've got 51 % of population that we're really not engaging with. And this is the side of cricket that had the resources, so the men's game. Women have played cricket in Australia for over 120 years, I think. The first Victorian Ladies Cricket Association was established in 1905. So there was a long history, but not very well recognised, not very well resourced, run predominantly by volunteers, lot of passionate women. And I think it was really initially an economic Utkarsh Narang (11:20.206) Hmm. Claudia Fatone (11:23.822) decision or interest that all 50 % of population, we can't grow the sport, or it's going to be very difficult to grow the sport if we're going to continue to focus on males and, and noting that the different sort of cultures that were making up the mix of the Australian population. that's really what, what, what, um, what shifted. And then you sort of saw the once men who were involved in administering cricket had daughters and then started to realize the lack of opportunities. Utkarsh Narang (11:32.919) Mm. Claudia Fatone (11:52.51) think James Sutherland, was CEO of Cricket Australia for many years, know, two boys and a daughter, and I think probably that connection to her interest in cricket and realising there wasn't the same opportunities, I think that then started to shift, certainly in the sport of cricket, what was happening and what was going to be available and the resourcing for the women's game. Utkarsh Narang (12:13.294) That's really fascinating how, again, it's the financial outcome that sometimes pushes us to change on a societal level. But I'm glad at least there was something that nudged this journey. But you know, as someone who has had slightly forward thinking in terms of how me and my wife, we've kind of grown together over the last 22 years, I find it really difficult. when I see in friends or in circles around me where I see that there's this subtle inferiority that is put to one gender. And I'm not going to say that it's always the women or where it is, but for me, like, help me understand. How have you seen, and we're moving from sports now to women's rights. How have you seen this evolve over the last, say 15 years, 20 years of your time in this arena? And where, what I'm really looking for is like, Maybe if you have some specific examples at how the world was really different 20 years ago versus now, and where does this stem from? Like what's the root? And I know it's a large question. There'll not be like a right or wrong answer here, but what's the root where men and women were, to me, I think like we were born equals, right? And we all have our beautiful, unique strengths and roles in this world. But when did this disparity happen and how are we facing it? Claudia Fatone (13:17.367) Yeah. Claudia Fatone (13:32.118) Yeah, look, that's a really complex question and probably greater minds than me could answer it. But I think, you know, I mean, it's obviously through history. I think I read recently somewhere around sort of, you know, women giving birth and then how their roles change where they were then confined to the home and therefore the men were out working. so I think it's grown out of that sort of where there were very strict sort of different expectations for men and women, both in the home and in society. And I think how I've seen that shift is, know, the sort of feminist movement who decided that, yes, you could be mothers, but you could also be humans and you could also have ambitions around career. And so there was a lot of, you know, fight for equality, particularly around workforce participation. you know, women often couldn't work if they were married and so how that shifted. And I think, you know, I came into the world at a time where, you know, the 70s and 80s, there was a bit of a, a lot of sort of advocacy around women's participation in women's rights, mainly by women. And I think the shift I've seen is that now there's a, you know, there's a lot more men who see the benefits of gender equality and actually actively supporting that. not saying that they weren't in, in, you know, previous days, but I think that's the shift that, yes, it's women's right, but actually human rights and that gender equality actually benefits everyone. And if you think about the challenges with some of the strict gendered stereotypes of what it is to be a man, they're really limiting for men, men who want to perhaps spend time as the primary caregiver of their children and have a really active role if they have children and their families. I think that's a shift and people are saying, actually, need structure. structural inequalities and barriers for men to do that, parental leave, for example. So I think, you know, when people realize that, wow, this is what women have experienced and now I've got to want to sort of be an active parent, but I've got all these structural barriers. I think then you see that that's the change I've seen that most of probably more men have realized the benefits of having a more gender equal society, but then realize that actually there are structural barriers to that. Utkarsh Narang (15:46.766) Interesting. So these structural barriers that when men wanted to come to the other side, they started to feel like this is an actual challenge that needs to be solved for. When did you move from this idea of like you were more into sports and sports management to justice and social, when did that move happen for you as individually? Claudia Fatone (16:10.638) Yeah, I think it's interesting. you know, throughout my sporting involvement, it's always there's always been that that that sort of gender advocacy lens because I was working in the sport of women's cricket and we're very much, you know, particularly when I started working with the Victorian Women's Cricket Association, once I finished university, we're always advocating for greater resources, equality of opportunity. And so there was that advocacy piece, I think, where it shifted for me was through when I started working with the Federation of Community Legal Centres. So this was probably about 15 or so years ago. At the time I was working, I stopped working in cricket. I joined a HR recruitment consultancy, which worked predominantly with sporting organisations. That was great. I could continue my sport involvement through supporting in a national and state based sporting organisations, professional sporting clubs with their recruitment and HR needs. And that was great and I did that for five years, but I really was a, you know, I was a private company and I think I felt I missed that sense of connection to community, which I had when I was working in the sport of cricket. So yeah, that was an opportunity with the Federation of Community Legal Centers. you know, I'd never, I'd always grown up with very much, mom was very much socially justice minded. So, you know, about supporting communities and thinking about people who less fortunate than yourselves. We grew up in a middle-class family. So we were quite fortunate, but really had that sort of strong values around supporting others and acknowledging that not everyone was as fortunate as we were. Very caring in that regards. And so when I joined the Federation exposed me to this whole world around sort of access to justice from the fact that I didn't even know community legal centers really existed until I saw this role advertised, even though I'd probably walked past the Derebin. Community Legal Center on High Street Preston many times and just hadn't even connected with what it was. So that really is when the shift into that sort of more access to justice and how can the legal system really enable stronger, healthier communities, but particularly when it comes to, you know, the barriers that women experience just because of their gender. And so that's sort of where that shift happened when I joined the Federation. Utkarsh Narang (18:11.266) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (18:34.904) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (18:39.79) Interesting. And for someone who's maybe listening to this episode there, and our audience is mostly between say, about in their 30s, building a life, maybe their partners, parents. What do you think? Like how should someone who's listening to this try and understand women's rights? And what can someone do to advocate for it? Because everyone might not understand it fully the way you do. So what would your guidance do to all of us? Claudia Fatone (19:06.254) Yeah, I think for me it's about really acknowledging and thinking about the whole person and ensuring that they have access to whatever it is that they're interested in and have access to means and resources to live, you know, a healthy and comfortable life. That's really what I think, you know, human rights and women's rights are about. But I also think that's acknowledging where you have privilege and the fact that the world by virtue of where you're born, which family you're born into can actually impact your life, both positively and negatively. So the world is not equal by any stretch of imagination because of poverty, because of cultural factors, because of geography. So I think when you think about it, it's really about how do you acknowledge the whole person? How do you think about what it is that stops people from... being able to live the life that they want to live and explore interests and have a healthy and sustainable life for them and their families if they have it. And so I think if you think about it from that aspect and that not everyone is born equal, then you're starting, you can sort of understand then how barriers exist and how there's both structural and cultural and economic barriers and that they do present significant issues for people. and that there are then you do need levers to try and not make things equal but make things more equitable depending on where people are starting from. Utkarsh Narang (20:41.55) Yeah, that's, it's such a beautiful shift that you've just spoken about. And the world is definitely not equal. It's it's a, it's a beautifully strange place that we live in culturally and economically and through resources and everything. Because I imagine like, so we moved to Australia only two years ago, which people on the podcast would be tired of listening to, but I come back to these stories because then that relates more personally and at home to me. And I imagine that we have two boys who are 14 and 11 now. Claudia Fatone (20:54.51) I Utkarsh Narang (21:11.476) if they would have continued growing in India, they would have such a different perspective to life compared to what we have here. And I'll give you an example. If you go to like a public park in India, you would have about 50 kids trying to get their space. And because we are a densely populated country and you come to Australia, the parks are empty. And if you see like five people, that means, there's a lot of people here. Maybe let's go to the other public park. And so all these opportunities make it a very unequal world. But what I want to have us focus on when you say looking at the whole person and creating a more equitable, what actions can someone take? Because it's a big shift, right? Equality versus being equitable. Claudia Fatone (21:58.166) Yeah, that's right. I think, I mean, look, I there's many things people can do. I think if you think about your workplaces, you know, identifying and supporting equitable workplaces. So, you know, if you're seeing bad behavior, you know, with your colleagues, whether it's racist or sexist behavior, having the confidence to and the support to be able to sort of address that and raise that in a way that creates a better environment for people that you work with. I think about it in sporting clubs particularly and thinking about who gets access to the facilities and at the what times. And I think about when I was growing up in cricket, we always had to, when I first started playing, we had to just train on nights when the men weren't training, because they got first preference. So you can sort of think about it in lots of different contexts. And I think it's just about having kindness and empathy for your fellow humans. Um, but also being aware of where there are, there is inequality and what is, what is the one small thing you can do is that someone's, know, um, you see something on public transport where someone is harassed because of something. Well, you might just go up and say to them, you okay? You know, just them having that acknowledgement that someone's seen what happened and, you know, reached out to make sure that they're okay. So it doesn't have to be big things, but I think all that builds community cohesion. I think about the diversity of our community is so rich, including our First Nations people, that being exposed to that and having an interest in that, I think helps with understanding where inequality and inequity exists. But I think it can be small things. I think it can just be kind to your fellow humans reaching out to support. I think about some of the barriers in the workforce and in Utkarsh Narang (23:42.445) Yeah. Claudia Fatone (23:52.75) particularly in sport participation, there are lots of things people can do to really think about, we actually providing a gender equitable environment? Culturally equitable environment, doesn't need to be gender, it could be around culture and race. And what can you do to make sure that, what's within your control to try and change that? Utkarsh Narang (24:01.806) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (24:14.562) Yeah, it seems such a simple solution, right? Because what you've spoken is truly being human. All we're asking is to be kind to each other, be empathetic. If you see and identify a behavior that is not pursuing these values that we're speaking about, then raise your voice or just check in with the other person and ask them, like, are you okay? And then you're speaking about this community cohesion. I think that these are all powerful ideas. And it's almost like a great segue for us to move into Claudia Fatone (24:36.558) Bye. Utkarsh Narang (24:43.71) this idea of human rights and maybe also building a better world. Even though kindness and empathy is human nature, but how is it becoming so hard for us to express that? And there are examples where it is being done, but I'm just trying to be on the devil's side to see how we can move people around. But why is it becoming a little bit of a challenge for us to be kind to strangers? Maybe let's start there. Claudia Fatone (25:07.854) Yeah, I do think whilst the world is more connected than ever, I actually think individually you're less connected than ever in a lot of ways. I think that because of, you know, technology has great things. But if you think about when you, when I travel on the train into the city for work and people are, you know, had their heads buried in their devices and not even paying attention to anything that's going around them. So I think that's limiting. the sort of human connection. And I think the income inequality is a huge one in Australia, but across the world, because I think that having a lack of income, a lack of financial resources does actually inhibit your ability to participate in society. So if you think about, you make those community connections. So if you think about going to a sporting team and playing but it's cricket or football, there's a cost associated to it and time. so often, depending on your circumstances, you can't access those things. I think that combination of of, yeah, of the sort of focus on digital and individual interests and activities, plus I think that income inequality really does mean that there's less connection. And I think that sort of goes against that community cohesion. then you don't, you know, will become smaller. you're sort of interacting only with people who are like you and not very diverse in terms of your sort of social network. Then how do you get to understand what someone's like as a newly arrived community member, as a First Nations person, as a woman, as a man, as a gender diverse person, if you're actually not exposed and don't have connections with those people. Utkarsh Narang (27:02.456) Hmm. I love, I love that. We live in times which are, which make us feel that we are really well connected to each other because of the social platforms and networks, but we are so disconnected. And I, I think what you just said about like people's people have their headphones on or are always into their phones. That does not allow us to have that human experience, right? Because we're not, we're not looking into each other's eyes. We're not looking at each other and giving a smile because we are so busy with what's happening to us. And it's a big behavior shift. It is a massive behavior shift because I think there are these smart engineers in the world who are sitting behind these powerful apps and making us more and more addicted to them. How do you practice disconnection from the devices? Claudia Fatone (27:45.133) Yeah. Claudia Fatone (27:49.666) Very hard. So I'm now making an effort to not be on my device when I'm on the train. Particularly in the morning, observing the environment around me, trying to be more present to what's going on. And I think it's that presence, that mindfulness I found really valuable. It frees your mind and you get some clarity of thought, perhaps. But that's how I'm trying to sort of, for me, focus on that mindfulness and that we're being fully present and just not having my device in my hand I think is helpful put it in the bag and ignore it for half an hour. Utkarsh Narang (28:30.7) Yeah, it's such a power move. And I think if our listeners are listening to this, they should absolutely try it a few days because I've started to do that too when I'm traveling on the train to the city. I love to just observe the sounds around me or when I'm walking in the city, there are so many beautiful sounds that you can observe when you have your headphones out and not looking at technology. This whole idea of mindfulness, think... Claudia Fatone (28:45.646) and Utkarsh Narang (28:57.898) It's a conversation we could spend like 45 minutes on to it, but I'm not going to digress towards that. But instead I'm also pushing us, like when I see the news, know, it feels that we are living in such a segmented, partitioned world almost. What's happening in the US, what's happening in the Middle East, what's happening in, for example, Asia and different parts, right? And this also is leading to in some ways human rights being violated. How do you see these larger problems impacting us on a daily basis? Claudia Fatone (29:34.062) Oh, that's a really complex question, isn't it? I mean, I think it's all about, you know, leadership and people taking their cues. So if you think about what we spoke about earlier, my environment influenced my interests, my mother influenced, you know, interest in sport and social justice and caring for community. And then if you think about where you've got individuals in power, politicians who take a real deficit lens to humanity and seeking power and thinking about not how everyone can benefit, but I can benefit, but it's going to be to your detriment. And I'm making a judgment call on who you are and what kind of person you are just by the very nature of your color of your skin or your gender. So I just think that the lack of strong leaders and positive leaders. I think is influencing how people view themselves and their fellow human beings. And it's really tricky to fight against, know, someone can potentially be in the most powerful position in the world and be so, have lack emotional empathy for their fellow humans and operate in a way that actually wants to bring everyone and make everyone, you know, give everyone participation and. Utkarsh Narang (30:33.774) Hmm. Claudia Fatone (30:56.59) and the opportunities, then people take their lead from that, unfortunately. And then it gives them, I think, almost the approval to behave in bad ways. And that's what we're seeing, I think. Utkarsh Narang (31:07.214) Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so it's a challenge with the leadership, how the leadership is acting and behaving and operating out of the right values or not. I think that's true. the world needs more, more strong leaders who are driven by empathy, who are driven by, are motivated to the outcomes because ultimately nations need to run and budgets need to be taken care of. But at least they look at the the human emotions and the whole person view as well. think that's great lesson. And I think the second thing I want to pick from what you shared just now is this deficit lens. one of these episodes, I think it was about seven or eight episodes ago, a guest and I decided, and we'll put the link here up there somewhere, decided to speak about this idea of scarcity and abundance. And what we're thinking about, and I'd love your views on it, is that the world moves through scarcity and abundance in different segments. Claudia Fatone (31:41.102) Mm-hmm. Claudia Fatone (31:54.403) Mm. Utkarsh Narang (32:02.306) For example, Australia might right now be in a state where maybe it's going towards abundance, but it's in the scarcity zone or going there or coming down. Like, and I'm not going to, I'm not an expert on like how the world is working. India might be in a different state and the U S might be in a different state and Europe might be in a completely different state. So everyone's becoming more individualistic about where they are instead of looking at the holistic picture. And I think that is also disrupting the systems. How do you feel about, about that? Claudia Fatone (32:33.395) I think that's very true. think where people, know, if you feel like you're, I've sort of observed people, if they feel like their life is not where they want it to be, you know, who's to blame? You know, who am I blaming? they're taking my job, they're taking my money, they're taking, you know, like they come into the country. And so I think if you look at it from that aspect rather than, gee, everyone's different and yes, my life is not. Utkarsh Narang (32:46.359) you Claudia Fatone (32:59.752) perhaps where it wants it to be, but I'm not going to blame someone else. I'm going to think about how the community is connected and what can I do to improve, but not necessarily blame someone else for my position, that they've taken something from me or they're to blame why I'm not where I want to be financially or whatever it might be. And I think that comes down to You know, US is an interesting, interesting country in that regards, but even here in Australia that, you know, we have this mindset around welfare and that people that need access to welfare somehow are trying to cheat a system. And we have the same mind set around people coming to this country that there's this queue that people are trying to jump, by getting in a boat and sailing to Australia, trying to flee, you know, own country of origin. Utkarsh Narang (33:50.509) Hmm. Claudia Fatone (33:57.026) And I just think it's so many misconceptions. And I think it's fed by a political narrative. And therefore, think that people think, you you then start to think, someone else is doing better than me and they're doing better than me because it's unfair and they shouldn't. And instead of thinking about and having a community and society that supports people when they need support, provides access of... Utkarsh Narang (34:13.485) Hmm. Claudia Fatone (34:23.852) you know, education and job opportunities and celebrates differences and diversity. Doesn't see it as a negative, doesn't see it as a deficit. It actually sees it as the community as a whole benefits. So it's a tricky time, I think, at the moment. But I do think there's a lot of things that contribute to that. And I think in a country like Australia and Utkarsh Narang (34:44.908) It is. It is. Claudia Fatone (34:52.942) America's a whole other world in terms of a lack of a safety net. Yeah, I think COVID was interesting, wasn't it? Because we've acknowledged that people needed a safety net, and so the government provided it. Yet when you can say, you live on whatever, I don't know what the job secret payment is, but can you actually live on $45 a day? No, no one could. Yet we're asking people to do that. So I just think, yeah, it's very complex, but I think there's certainly Utkarsh Narang (35:06.476) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (35:16.366) Correct? Yeah. Yeah. Claudia Fatone (35:22.358) structural levers, but also, you know, leadership, political narratives that really don't help when you're trying to build a cohesive community. Utkarsh Narang (35:32.376) Yeah, yeah. There's so many variables here, right? It's impossible to A, have a right or a wrong answer here. And I think what you're saying about like, instead of finding who do you blame for the current state, it's more about how do you take ownership and what can you change and what can you shift? And so moving from this victimized state of things to maybe that, I'll empower myself or my community or my organization, to say the least, to do something better. But what's your... addiction. Like where do you see like, do you see this getting better or worse in the next five to 10 years? And that's completely personal opinion. So there's no, there's no right or wrong here. Claudia Fatone (36:02.35) Cool. Claudia Fatone (36:08.838) Yeah, no. Look, I think globally, can I say it's probably helpful that in the US you can only have two terms as president. That might help to shift something globally. I think, to be honest, I really at the moment, I can't see it getting substantively better in the next five to 10 years and even in Australia because Whilst I feel like there's lot of positives in, you know, who we are as a country and the way our governments run, there really isn't, I don't believe, the political will or ambition to really address some of these key things because they're potentially, electorally not popular or seem to be not popular politically. And I just, I don't see the ambition there both, you know, from Commonwealth. government and even here in Victoria, you know, to really push against what is politically saying to be a good thing to actually make those significant changes where we need to, to build that community cohesion to address economic inequality, address gender inequality, address violence against women. That's a huge proportion, huge levels in our community. I'm erring on the side of doom for the next 5-10 years, unfortunately. Utkarsh Narang (37:38.51) Yeah, and I also don't know, like, I don't know what the right answer is, but there's this eternal optimist in me hopes that things improve. But I hear and understand what you're saying, because the world's shifting so quickly. And I know we've spoken about this for like 30 years, that the pace of the change is increasing. But it's actually right now baffling in terms of the geopolitical tensions that the world is going through, and how you wake up one morning and you see on the news that or today Israel decided to put some missiles on Iran and Iran decided to fight back. And it seems like where is that sense of control? Where is that sense of like who's going to ultimately lead this to a better world? Because it seems that the world is missing those leaders. I think that's one variable that you and I have spoken about. And then this beast of AI, right? There's no podcast these days that you can complete without you speak about that. And I see Claudia Fatone (38:16.27) Mmm. Utkarsh Narang (38:37.166) Sometimes when I was reading an article that AI is also being based on our biases somewhere. And so there's this unconscious bias in AI. What's been your, and I know it's a large question again, but what's your interaction with AI and how do you see it evolving in terms of supporting us as human beings or not? Claudia Fatone (38:44.174) Cool. Claudia Fatone (38:58.53) Yeah, mean, I think, you know, there's positives and obviously risks with AI. I think the positives that I've seen around, you know, ethical use of AI can create some efficiencies in terms of work processes, not replacing humans, but actually making my time more efficient. You see it with, you know, the way you interact with consumer platforms. Obviously, AI supports that. I think that the risk is around where all the social media content is really narrowed to reinforcing existing views and things you're already watching. And if you don't get that breadth of information, and I think for me, trying to access different sources of information so that even if I disagree, I'm understanding what people are thinking about certain issues. Because I think one of the challenges at the moment with the sort political leadership that we have, I think about particularly in the US, is that anyone that has a difference of opinion is cast as an enemy. And I think that really stops them people engaging with people about differences and about issues and trying to understand someone else's perspective, even if you vehemently disagree. I think people are afraid to engage in those conversations because of what we're seeing. that anyone, you know, in America at the moment, if you're, if you disagree with president Trump, you're a traitor you know, and, and you're, should be shut down and silenced. That's not happening so much in Australia, but I do think it does create this fear of wanting to engage in some of those difficult conversations about difficult topics. And so I think that's the, that's the real challenge with AI, particularly when comes to social media is it narrows people's information to a certain type and you don't get exposed to different views and opinions as much. Utkarsh Narang (40:57.452) Yeah, yeah, I agree. And something that I've tried to break through and I don't really invest much time on social media, but I've seen my kids do it. so, and to others around me, I recommend them like maybe once a day, just search something that's more constructive or more opposing to what you think about so that you feed the algorithm with these counter ideas. Because ultimately the algorithm is so, so smart in understanding where you spend an extra three seconds versus not that it's going to feed you if you're someone who is pro-Trump, then you're going to see all of that content versus not. So yeah, it's a fascinating world that we live in and only time will tell where we get from, from where we are right now. Yeah. Yeah. As we move towards the end of this conversation, and I know there are bigger problems that we have been unable to solve, but I hope we are given something to our listeners to ponder upon and to make some promise to themselves so that they can act upon it. But a few decades from now, Claudia, if that 80 year old Claudia. 8-0 were to come to you right now and give you like one piece of advice on how to lead the next few decades. What would that wise woman say? Claudia Fatone (42:07.854) That's a tricky question. think for me, it's about investing in the quality of your relationships because you only have one life and I think relationships can really enrich your life. And so that's what I'd say is I think in that technology enabled world we are in this sort of more isolated world, I would say focusing on the quality of your relationships and that person to person connection. would be the advice that I'd be giving myself when I'm 80. Utkarsh Narang (42:41.058) Yeah. Love that. Love that. Awesome. I loved our conversation. Thank you for your time today. And I'm just going to summarize that there are three things that we can take away. And one is, let's just be humans and act with kindness and empathy. Look at the whole person around us. And I think that's beautiful. If you cannot do much, then just go and ask the other person, are you OK? And then listen, as if your life depends on it. And then the third thing is, instead of being in the state that how the world is changing and who is to blame for it, let's start asking what can I do to improve it? And I think that'll be a, hopefully we'll leave a better world than how we found it. Thank you for your time today and to everyone who's listening, if you're listening on a podcast platform, like and comment and share this because that's how we appease to the algorithm gods. And if you're looking at this on YouTube or Instagram, then share and comment. Love to hear from you as to who can we have as our next guest. Thank you Claudia for your time today. Claudia Fatone (43:38.616) Wonderful, thanks so much, Utkarsh.