Utkarsh Narang (00:01.058) In a world that celebrates hustle, today I have the chief heart officer of Viner Media. And the first time I texted or message Claude on LinkedIn was July 6th. And it's October 10th and 11th, our time that we're recording this. And I was telling Claude that everything has a time. And today was the perfect moment for us to have this conversation. Welcome to the podcast Claude. Claude Silver (00:23.714) Thank you. Thank you so much. Beautiful to be here with you today. Utkarsh Narang (00:27.384) Looking forward to this conversation and Claude, the hypothesis is that we will today speak about what does it mean to be chief heart officer and putting humans first? What does it mean to be yourself at first? And I'm going to come in from a listener's perspective where I feel I want to be like the devil's advocate to all the ideas that you and I will speak about so that we can pressure test them and see what the user can take away today. Amazing. Amazing. Looking forward to it. The first question, Claude, that we start the conversation with is that Claude Silver (00:49.39) I'm ready. I'm ready. Utkarsh Narang (00:56.396) If that 8 year old little girl, Claude growing up wherever Claude was, if that 8 year old girl were to come and meet you right now, what kind of a conversation would emerge between the two of you? Claude Silver (01:07.704) First, I would embrace her with such a hug, so much warmth. And I would first, and my hands on my heart as I even say this, I would first put my hand on her shoulder and say, you know what, it's gonna be okay, you got this. And I got you, I'm gonna be with you, I'm not gonna leave you. And I think that 18 year old girl really could have used that. Claude Silver (01:37.046) support that unconditional support that like it's going to get bumpy here but I'm going to be with you and don't you know don't let me go don't let me go Utkarsh Narang (01:54.968) Don't let me go. I love the intensity of that embrace. This unconditional support. Why is it so hard to give this unconditional support to self and to each other in this world? Claude Silver (02:08.334) We're so judgmental. We are so judgmental about ourselves, so much bias about the world, about others, about difference. I feel like that judgment leads to such shame, such silence. You end up silencing yourself. You end up going inward and feeling as though you don't belong. You know, where should I go? What should I do? Who should I be in this world? If not that, if I'm not doing it right, who should I be? Utkarsh Narang (02:47.758) Yeah. And belongingness, think is something all of us crave, Claude Silver (02:53.554) my gosh, we're wired. We're all wired. Human beings were wired to to belong. We're wired to belong to one another in community and to to be together. I think from a very deep cellular place inside, we have that craving. And as we know, newborns and their mom, that first immediate touch is right here. which is all about belonging and bonding. And it's the oxytocin that's created with the newborn and the birth mother that creates that safety. I'm safe here. I'm bonded to you. You got me, I got you. Utkarsh Narang (03:41.102) You got me, I got you. As you said that it's so poetic, this expression of you got me and I got you. And as you're saying this, what's running in my head is, and I've read the book and whoever is listening, get the book. It's a beautiful book. Be yourself at work. Claude, you say there's some somewhere in the initial part of the book that what is the song that's playing in your head? And what's the song that's playing in Claude's head right now? Claude Silver (04:02.414) Yes. Claude Silver (04:08.449) my gosh, that's a really good question. It's funny sometimes I don't stop to listen to it. The one that is playing in my head right now is the killers, all these things I've done. And the part I was singing actually is, I've got soul, but I'm not a soldier. You he keeps on going, I've got soul, but I'm not a soldier. I'm not gonna sing it for you. Absolutely not, but all these things that I have done, really, I don't know how it popped into my head because I haven't listened to that song in probably a year, but it's there. Utkarsh Narang (04:44.013) Yeah. I think it's a very interesting question and wherever this conversation started, I don't exactly remember the reference of the book, but just to pause and ask yourself what song is playing in your head is such a powerful question because it just tells what the state of mind is, right? How do you use this in your like weekly, monthly? Is there a ritual that you go back to asking like, what's the song playing in my head right now? Claude Silver (05:09.27) Well, it's funny that you asked that. I don't, when I'm working with people and coaching them, it's not the song I'm asking for. I say, what is that negative voice saying to you? And that's when I'm working through an imposter syndrome with them. So as, as we know, I don't know how this happens, but unfortunately we usually have a negative talk track up here. Many of us do. I'm not enough. I'm not smart. I'm not tall enough. I'm not pretty enough. And it's on repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat. So when I ask someone who I can see is in somewhat of pain, struggling, what is that voice saying to you right now? Like right now, what is that voice saying? And they will tell me I'm not smart enough to be here or XXX. And that's where we can start. That's exactly where we can start the conversation. And it's the same thing as the song. I equated the song that day when I had this negative song in my head. I was in a very, very bad place emotionally, physically. I was doing something extremely challenging and I didn't want to be there. And so I had a very dark song in my head, a nine inch nail song. That song was like a mantra for me. And I think that and everything else that I was made up of was preventing me from breaking through, preventing me from letting go of this sabotaging way I had, quite frankly. And a lot of us in adolescence, we go through... Claude Silver (07:01.654) some hard times. It's a real funky time emotionally, hormonally. But that's really how it came about, which is the outward bound instructor came to me and she just looked right at me in my eyes and she said, what is going on in your head? And I responded to her very literally, which is. Well, I'm singing the song by Nine Inch Nails, you know, head like a hole, black as your soul. I'd rather die than give you control. I was crying. And that's when she said, you better get another song in your head. Utkarsh Narang (07:39.853) Such a powerful reframing, right? And how you connected that to like the negative sabotage, the distortions that the brain's presenting to us and to shift them into a positive frame. To the listeners, I think this is a great moment to just kind of pause. And I always tell Claude that if you're listening to a podcast and you really want it to do anything for you, you've got to have a notepad because by the end of the hour, you not remember anything. And so I think the invitation here is like, what's the song that's playing in your head right now? And if that needs to change, what do want to change it to? Claude Silver (08:11.436) I think that's a good, I really think it's such a good prompt for people and knowing how you just said it and how I just say it, we say it with love, not with shame, not with judgment. What is the song that you're playing in your head? Just write it down for a second. Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (08:28.206) Yeah, yeah, beautiful. And be non-judgmental to yourself as well, I think, in that moment, because that's going to be hard. Claude Silver (08:33.39) Please, yeah. Because even when you asked me what song was in my head and I have it, I thought, gosh, what does that song say about me? And then I said, forget it. It's just a song. It's just a song. Utkarsh Narang (08:45.378) Yeah. Yeah. And now with the ease with which you can change songs, like maybe 20 years ago, you had to change cassettes, change sides, find the song. Now you just need to click a button and change the song. Amazing. Claude Silver (08:53.686) my God, please, please. Yeah, you can think of any song in the world to just change to. Utkarsh Narang (09:01.304) Right there. Amazing. From there, the journey began. the next moment before we dive into what does it mean to be yourself at work is that moment when you were working with Gary and Gary Vee. Let me do a fanboy moment for a second. So there's a screen on my phone that actually shows Gary and Ankur. These are two people who I feel like they're like. Claude Silver (09:21.937) Utkarsh Narang (09:27.746) the mentors that I have who I can listen to the content anytime and gain so much for. So this is a fanboy moment to Ankruvayik and Gary Vee. But that moment you left and you came back as the chief heart officer and that title did not. It was not there. What happened there? Like if I'm a fly on the wall on that day, that week, those conversations, what was going on in your mind and in those conversations? Claude Silver (09:35.627) Love it, love it, love it. Claude Silver (09:54.723) Yeah. Well, I'll back up. So almost nine months before we had that conversation, I told him that I was no longer interested in working in advertising. So he had hired me to run a very large piece of business because that's what I had done for so long. And I realized that I wasn't getting any passion out of it anymore. It didn't matter to me if, you know, if, if, if this was blue, green, cursive, it didn't matter. Matters to a lot of people, but it didn't matter to me. But what mattered to me was the team. And so I said to him, you know, thank you so much for this opportunity. I love this place. You're the best, but I do not want to work in advertising. And Gary said, What do you want to do? And I said, I only care about the people here. I care about the heartbeat. And that's how we came to it. The heartbeat, the heartbeat. And I ended up resigning six months later. I was just there. You I was done and I found my backfill and he would tell you right now that as we I'm resigning to him, he's thinking, what am I? How am I going to bring her into this company? So three months after that, we had breakfast. And that's when he said, you're coming back as chief heart officer. And it made all the sense in the world. Heartbeat, heartbeat. To me, heartbeat. is the red thread. That is the emotional barometer that goes through every single human being that creates the culture. That's the vibe. That's the doing, the living inside of a culture. And so, and I've actually never articulated it just like that, but it is, it's living in breathing. Utkarsh Narang (11:53.561) Yeah, yeah. And what I think I love about just this idea of being the chief of officer for an organization, the people are the heart. Like what is an organization without the people? Claude Silver (12:05.432) Well, you know, thank you, yes. Remember back in the day, and I don't know if this was 30 years ago, 20 years ago, it was said that people are your greatest asset. People are not an asset though. People are the company. You have no company to your point. You have nothing without a human being. And this human being, we have a heartbeat. This is our central operating system. And we in the company, we are the central operating system. And so, you know, it makes sense to me in my little funny head, but the most important thing is to know and to see people as people, as humans, not as numbers, employees, assets, as living, breathing humans. And I don't think it should be that difficult. That's the thing. Utkarsh Narang (12:57.358) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (13:03.104) about to say that I was about to say that because in this and and I think there are a lot of people and we cannot over generalize towards any of the the insights and the the vision that we carry but there are a lot of people who feel people are hard the heartbeat and there are a lot of people who feel the right opposite where they feel like people are not important and and they don't find the sense of belonging they don't find that people need to be taken care of and all of that And I'm digressing a little bit before I come back to my path. But in this world of where there's like a stark competition happening between artificial intelligence and human intelligence, how are you as as as a coach, as the author, as the chief heart officer, as everything, how are you seeing this this play out in the real world? Claude Silver (13:43.01) Yes. Claude Silver (13:52.321) Yeah, AI is fantastic. It's the wild, wild west. It is going to take us beyond our wildest imagination, whether or not that's through efficiency, time saved, energy saved, creative, you name it. But AI will never be able to do this. I got you and you got this, ever, ever, ever. It can be your therapist. It can be your coach, can give you advice, but it will never be able to reach out and look in your eyes and say, I believe in you. I got this. You got this. And that's at least what I see for the foreseeable future. We'll see what happens in 20 years. But I hope the human touch never leaves. We need it. We just do. Utkarsh Narang (14:46.341) Yeah. What would be what would we be without it? Claude Silver (14:51.34) Robots, know, do, do, do, do, do. We'd be like R2-D2 or C-3PO in the Star Wars movies, you know. We wouldn't have a heart. We wouldn't, I don't know what we would feel. Utkarsh Narang (15:01.637) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (15:06.169) Yeah, I think the word that is being misused is that AI is going to replace human intelligence. think what we need is that it's going to augment us. It's going to make us even better. And hopefully there'll be a world that AI can help us get the work done and be more efficient and as you were saying, be more creative. But then you can go and be more human, which I think we've forgotten in so many ways. Claude Silver (15:14.264) Yes. Claude Silver (15:31.916) Yeah, so will AI allow you and me more time to be with our family? Yes. And that is a great thing. Will AI allow us to get from point A to Z much faster? Yeah, that's a great thing. But it still won't be able to touch. Utkarsh Narang (15:50.854) Yeah, yeah. This idea of being human, something about seven, eight years ago, that was the first time I was getting coached by someone. And with that senior leader, I asked him, like, I'm in this dichotomy and conflict that am I being or am I doing? So how have you seen this play out? Because I'm pretty sure in your role and the career that you've had, It's not like an easy path, right? So how do you balance this idea of doing and being? Claude Silver (16:25.966) So you just put another song in my head and it's another song by the killers and it's, we human or are we dancers? And I don't exactly know what that means necessarily other than the way I've interpreted it is are we human beings or are we marionettes? You know, are we puppets? But to answer your question, what a wonderful world it is if we can be in this world. Utkarsh Narang (16:43.685) Yeah. Claude Silver (16:56.418) be present in this world. The doing for me, that's the verb. That's the doing, making sand castles, the busy work we do, the cooking, that's the doing. I think what I would love is if we can marry the being, which I think is as presence, being present with the doing. And so much of us are doing this while we're trying to be present. I'm not present right now, I'm reading my texts. It's almost impossible for me to be present and listen to you when I'm doing this. But that's what we are doing while I'm trying to be present with my children. Utkarsh Narang (17:26.757) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (17:43.792) Yeah. And children, I think have a great sense. I have two boys who are now 14 and 11. And a few years ago, they were, when they were growing up, I would be Gmailing while I'm talking to them. And they'll be like, dad, you can do either of the two things because you're not looking at me. You're not paying attention to my expression. And so you're not talking to me. And they would walk away. And that made me realize that what am I losing through that, to that distraction, through that trying to do and be. Claude Silver (18:14.936) Good. Yeah, it's the same thing. So our kids will say when we're texting, because that's what we're doing, right? Can you put your phone down? Utkarsh Narang (18:25.316) Love it. Claude Silver (18:26.542) And you you hear it once or maybe I don't hear it because I'm busy in my phone. I hear it, you know, third time. And then I just obviously feel terrible. Of course I can put my phone down, but they're so on it. They're wise. These children, these kids, no matter how old, mine are four and seven. mean, but boy, boy, do they notice when I'm not being present. Utkarsh Narang (18:53.295) Being yourself at work, if we were to, and it's a huge idea, right? Because it is A, not easy, and B, what I'm gonna hopefully gain today is that I feel, A, it's not easy for me as a person to be myself at work, and then is it easy for the other person to receive me as who I'm wanting to be? Claude Silver (19:14.03) Bingo. So that's, that's such a wonderful paradox because here, especially in the first part of the book, the being yourself at work is getting comfortable with yourself. The self awareness part, understanding that when you do not show up as yourself, you carry a very heavy weight. You carry a lot of armor on your back. However, to be yourself at work and what I'm asking for is not only the self-awareness, but the idea of being able to regulate myself, the emotional regulation, because then to your point, can another person receive me? Well, probably if I'm just like this, but if I'm freaking out and spazzing or crying and I have a lot of drama going on in my life, no thanks, that's hard. That's hard to ask another person. So then the book goes into the team and how do we work together as a team, knowing that we want to regulate ourselves, but we also want to embrace the magic of who we are. That's the part that I feel like I want to put the puzzle pieces together, you know, the jigsaw puzzle because... It'll never be a, I don't think it'll ever be a perfect world because people hold back for a variety of reasons and you and I don't have their lived experience. We don't know why. And it took me a very long time to feel comfortable with my own self-awareness and my own ability to not spill. Right? So it's a journey. The whole thing is a journey. However, I feel like the more we can do this together on teams and be okay with one another. acknowledge each other for the brilliance you bring, the creativity, the humor, and also the seriousness you bring. Maybe a family member's in the hospital, your dog is sick, whatever, right? I feel like if we can be accepting of that, we can become much more efficient. And through that efficiency, which I talk about, there's also the bravery of being able to say, Claude Silver (21:35.885) I really disagree with that point of view. Can you explain that a little bit more to me? Or I'm going to share with you my subjective feedback, which is, I don't think you're ready for a promotion because da, da, da, da, da. But if it comes from that place, my heart, if it comes from that place that you know me already, we've connected. You trust me. We have built resilience together on this team. My hope is that that is what is the loudest, our connection. Not that I'm trying to critique you or correct you. I just want you to be the best you and you want me to be the best me. And we need each other for that. Utkarsh Narang (22:24.741) So beautiful. Let's start with the self because I want this to really go deep for the listener because I think I think somewhere you say that your worth is inherent and not earned. That to me was like really hard hitting because I've seen so many people where their worth depends on someone else or what they do or what the outcome is. Just dissect this for me that your worth is inherent. Claude Silver (22:53.774) And I will say, it's very different per culture. know, the American world, the world that I live in, you know, we are, we're large, we're loud, we're entrepreneurial. That's generalization, of course. Your world might be more demanding. Your parents may have been more demanding of you, especially first gen, right? You must go to college. You must get a PhD. You must be a doctor. And that's understandable too. In that context, you have to prove yourself. And again, that's a cultural thing, and I'm not a cultural anthropologist, but what I mean in the workplace. We've spent months and months looking for you, trying to recruit you. We've looked at all these other people, we found you. Now for the last two months, we've interviewed you, you've come in, you've met five people. We know you, we think we know you, you know us. Why in the world would you have to come into the workplace and gain our trust? We've already spent months with you. Why would you have to do that? Why can't we just trust that we hired the best person for this role who is going to come in and bring us all kinds of creativity and curiosity and innovation and wonder? Why do you have to prove yourself day one or day 30? That's what I mean. Who you are needs to be enough. And notice I didn't say who you are should be enough. Utkarsh Narang (24:43.461) you Claude Silver (24:43.724) I said, who you are needs to be enough. We've already gone there with you. There is nothing you need to prove other than you are a good hearted person and you come in peace. Utkarsh Narang (24:59.077) That's such a powerful perspective, you know, and what you said, think reframes this for me that anyone who's hiring has spent effort, time, made you meet like five people in the company, the CEO, and they've hired you because they trust that you're the right candidate. But does the relationship change as soon as the person becomes part of the company? And I'm, yeah, I'm just skeptical. Claude Silver (25:25.93) Okay, so, and I like that you're skeptical. In most places, probably. But how about if you had a culture that was trusting first? And by the way, that came in from the top and everyone knew that is the water we drink. We trust first. Now, we're human beings, so we're going to be skeptical, right? Not everyone is going to trust as I trust for a variety of reasons. My own path, I have no reason to not trust you. Someone else might be like, you're here to take my job. You know, that's a whole nother thing. But if it's in the culture and we know we are coming from a place of emotional intelligence, wanting the best for all of us because we all want to be successful here, trust is foundational. Having that trust is foundational. You will not have psychological safety or connection. or belonging without being able to at least trust, even on a micro level. I'm not saying trust, come over to my house and play with my children. I'm saying, I trust that you are the right hire and I trust that you know how to do this job. And now, because I am here with you, I'm taking you around on day one and I'm gonna introduce you to five people. You should go get coffee with them in the next week. And they will trust you too. They will be inquisitive about you. But that's in our water. It's not in everyone's water, especially, I think, places that are extremely data driven and obviously scientific and all of those things. That's different. But I'm talking about the common job. talking about, I'm not talking about being at NASA and having to go up in a spaceship. I don't have jurisdiction there. Utkarsh Narang (27:15.717) Hmm. Claude Silver (27:21.302) Just in the normal day to day connection, not transaction, connection. There's no reason for me to need you to prove your worth to me. You made it. Congratulations. Welcome. That's what I say. Welcome to Vayner. Welcome. Welcome to my house. The same thing I would say here. Utkarsh Narang (27:45.73) I love this idea. there's so many mirror neurons that are getting fired right now. So at the company, when we invite someone, like when someone joins, the email, even if it's an intern, the email we send is, welcome to Ignited Neurons. And I think that just, yeah, just special for them. Yeah. Claude Silver (27:58.233) Beautiful. Yeah, well it is because then they feel like they are a part of and they are. They are, you hired them. They are now a part of. What I say to our people on day one, when I meet everyone every other week, are just, congratulations, you are just as responsible for this culture as I am now. Congratulations, you get to put. Utkarsh Narang (28:06.437) Absolutely. Yeah. 100%. Claude Silver (28:26.931) your heart print, your thumb print on this culture. How cool is that? Utkarsh Narang (28:31.247) Yeah, it is, it is. For someone who's listening and they don't have, they've not found the organization that trusts them the way we've spoken in the last few minutes. What can they do, Claude, to be themselves at work? What's the work that they need to do on their own self or their environment so that they can feel like they've got something that they can practice Monday morning? Claude Silver (28:57.804) Yeah. So if they are going to stay at that place, this is what I, this, yeah. Well, I've been at those companies. I've been at those companies that didn't have Gary Vaynerchuk as the CEO. And it's hard. However, I never changed who I was. I was always that unofficial mentor, that person that still loved being with people, that still loved learning and jamming with people. Utkarsh Narang (29:02.979) I love the context, if they're going to scare. Mmm. Claude Silver (29:27.756) So what I say to that person who is not going to leave that job on Monday, don't change your stripes. If you are a zebra, stay a zebra. Even though the rest of the culture is filled with alligators, do not change because you are needed there. And we know when we're needed, when we make friends, when we bring people into our area and they, hey, can I sit down with you? Can you explain this to me? So that is what I say, do not change. Find your people. They will find you. And that's what you're gonna do until you're ready to do something different. Because not everyone can leave their job on Monday. Utkarsh Narang (30:14.051) the context that you set here, think that if you want to not leave that job, just don't change your stripes, just be who you are. I think it's powerful. And in the book, you speak about these three ideas, right? The, the optimism, the emotional optimism, the efficiency and bravery. How does that, how does one practice that? like, yeah, just if someone's listening, they've not heard these terms. What does it mean to have emotional bravery, optimism and efficiency? And how do you practice that? Claude Silver (30:41.826) Yep. So emotional optimism to me is belief, possibility. You know that the sun is going to shine tomorrow. It might not be shining today. You might have gotten a terrible review. You're emotional about it. You have emotions. That person cut you off and they interrupted you in the meeting for the third time. You have emotions about it. That is great. But you are not your emotions. I have emotions that that person gave me a terrible review and guess what? They've only worked with me for two months. That's not fair. I'm emotional about that. But I do know that A, I can get help, I can talk to someone about that, whomever that is, my mentor, my manager, HR or whatever. But I have agency to change that thought and look at that person and say, you know what, that's really... That's really too bad that that person felt like they needed to jump in on what I said three times. Like I feel for them. And hopefully, I don't pity them, I hope that they work through that. But I'm not them. And their intent wasn't to slash me. Their intent was, I got to get my idea out. I got to get my idea out. Not realizing that we're in a community, we're in a room together. Emotional optimism is feeling it. knowing that I am not an angry person, but that hurt my feelings, that frustrated me. And then knowing that I can change that. Tomorrow's going to be a different day. I'm not going to walk in feeling as down as I am today. I can change that. The bravery is then doing something about that. So in this case, doing something about that situation where the person interrupts three times, here's a very brave thing to do. You go to that person and say, hey, Yesterday, that was hard for me in the meeting when you interrupted me. my God, I didn't even realize I interrupted you. Okay, well that's good to know. You did interrupt me and I was left feeling that I wasn't smart enough or I was left feeling that no one cared about my feelings. my God, I'm so sorry I did that. Most of the time, that's what you're gonna get, right? People are not out to get us in the workplace. Contrary to popular belief. Utkarsh Narang (32:59.587) you Claude Silver (33:03.564) So the emotional bravery is sharing and taking action. Then the efficiency is the more I do that for myself and the more I do that with others, the faster we go. It becomes shorthand because now this person, it's Bob. Bob interrupted me three times. I now have been a little bit vulnerable with Bob. Utkarsh Narang (33:17.061) you Utkarsh Narang (33:28.293) Hmm. Claude Silver (33:28.502) and told him that, and I guarantee you that Bob will probably never do that again to me. And maybe in the next meeting, Bob will say, hey, Claude, why don't you share your idea? Something like that, but it gets faster. We can do, I call it shorthand, we can get through things quicker. And that's what this world is looking for right now, is speed, isn't it? Speed of not hanging onto the drama, it's not so heavy. Utkarsh Narang (33:40.709) Hmm. Claude Silver (33:56.067) was heavy when he first interrupted me, but it's not heavy today. And also like in a team, we've built resilience muscles. I know what bothers you. You know what bothers me. I know your family is in the hospital. I know you live miles and miles and miles away from your family and you miss them. We know that already. We don't have to hash it out all the time. I want to be very empathetic when I come to you and I say, I'm going home for the holidays. And you say to me, I live a million miles away, I cannot get on a plane. I should know that. I should spend enough time with you to know that. Utkarsh Narang (34:30.607) Yeah. It keeps coming back to the connection that we build, right? Because you said the trust is the foundation. And a question that was popping up in my head, which I've answered for myself in my head, but I'm still going to ask you because maybe there are listeners who have not. Just this idea of going and talking to that person, you interjected me in the meeting. This is how I felt. It is so hard. It is so heavy to take that step. Claude Silver (34:55.17) Yes, but I have a question for you. I just interrupted you. If you don't do that, these are the things that may happen. One, gossip. You know, Bob just interrupted me three times. he interrupted me the other day too. I hate it here. Cynicism. This place sucks. No one else called him out on that. I bet you he gets away with everything. Utkarsh Narang (34:57.605) Go ahead. Claude Silver (35:20.354) How heavy and gross is that? Then all of a sudden I become a wounded bird, I start gossiping, and now really I'm gonna leave this place because this place stinks, right? Bob has no idea that he interrupted me, most likely, right? The room, maybe some people in the room did, maybe they talked to him, maybe not. It is very difficult to be vulnerable, but what is the alternative? That's the thing. that is, by the way, that's in life. That's not at work. That's in life. What is the alternative? The alternative is we take baby steps and try to share our voice, share our feelings and move on. Bob did not mean to hurt me. It just happened. But the alternative is I then sour the grapes. and tell everyone I can that Bob stinks. Now what did I do? Now I really messed up. All because my feelings got hurt and I didn't go to Bob or I didn't go to Bob's manager or I didn't go to my manager and say, that hurt me. Utkarsh Narang (36:34.029) It's the assumptions that start to percolate then, and then that starts to speak out loud of what the culture is, whereas all of that is in your head. And so all you need to do is to change the Claude Silver (36:45.62) Exactly. I changed the song. And so it's so hard as a human being. But if we can remember, Bob and I are on the same team. I'm in a team meeting. What do we want to do? We want to get through this brief. We want to do great work. We want to succeed and grow. And then I want to go home. Thank you. You know, don't, I mean, we're... Utkarsh Narang (37:04.513) Mm. Mm. Claude Silver (37:11.48) We're here because we want to be at this organization. We want to grow and we believe in it and we believe we'll all be very successful and ambitious and whatnot. It takes an enormous leap of faith, which is called optimism as well, possibility to think maybe Bob had a bad morning. Maybe Bob's partner yelled at him. And so he felt that he just needed to get his words out there today. Eight million things could be true. But we don't think about that. And instead, we share the toxicity that we feel and cynicism. And then we've just added a layer of yuck. And we don't have to do that. We just don't have to do that. It's done. It's cooked. We've done it already. Utkarsh Narang (38:09.017) you're making it so visual and I'm like, I'm just putting myself in the middle to make it really real for the listeners because what I feel is like, and I remember, I think what we do is that we start to assume things on other people's behalf. And as you were saying, and as the brain is primitive, we think of all the negative things that might have happened. That, Bob hates me. Bob does not like me. Bob wants to demean me, to belittle me and do all of that. And we never think, maybe Bob and his spouse had a conversation or a heated argument this morning, or Bob received some bad news that's then reflecting. What's, and I know the brain is primitive and that stops us from shifting into a more positive perspective. But if we were to give one piece of advice, which coaches don't like to do, but if we were to give one piece of advice, how does one shift the thinking from negative to positive? Claude Silver (38:52.674) Yes. Claude Silver (39:06.35) Stop. Stop for a second. Just stop. Take a deep breath. Walk around the hall. Go take a walk with your friend. Whatever it is, just stop. Stop. And try to say to yourself, listen, I'm not wrong. He had, you know, I don't think he's a mean guy. I know in my heart of hearts that I'm smart, I have good ideas, whatever you need to then change your song. And the only thing I really couldn't say is you have to stop. You have to take a second. Now one day, you and I are gonna have microchips of AI in our head and we'll ask AI and then it will tell us what to do. But for now, we have to figure out conflict resolution as humans. And it's risky. It's risky, but I will go back to what is the alternative? What is the alternative? Utkarsh Narang (40:10.085) That's a great question to ask, right? What is the alternative? And then maybe you go ahead and choose that. Claude Silver (40:16.194) You go ahead and choose that or you go ahead and do nothing. And that's fine too. But that nothing doesn't mean gossip. Nothing means go home, take a shower, make a nice dinner, just chill and remember that it will be better tomorrow. You are not gonna feel the same way, most likely. Utkarsh Narang (40:23.971) Yeah. Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (40:39.245) Our authentic selves are sometimes very, very messy. And I know, like, if someone needs to balance being true to themselves and also conform to the need to perform, to please, to project confidence, how does one figure that balance out? Claude Silver (41:01.42) Well, we got to go back to self-awareness, right? And I think a lot of that, the answer to that question is going to be very specific based on that person's lived experience. Because the way you grew up and the way I grew up was very different. We heard different messages. Now, I am going to act, I'm either going to act out based on those messages that I heard. or I'm going to take some time in my 20s, 30s, 40s, whenever, and try to figure myself out, try to become self-aware of, when I was told, as I say in the book, by my parents who I love so much and who love me, what they said to me when I was 13, 14, 15, you think too much with your heart, Claude. When are you gonna learn how to think with your head? Now, they said that out of love and protection. And how I translated that was not out of love and protection. And it took me quite a while to understand the song I put in my head the minute they said that. And that song said, I don't belong. There's something wrong with me. I'm missing the microchip that everyone else seems to have. And I carried that for a very long time. I did. I carried that into my 30s. Way too long. And in carrying that into my 30s, I did not say yes to opportunities because I thought I was broken. And that's why in a roundabout way answering the questions, you might not have had that same messaging. You're gonna act very differently in the workplace potentially. For me, I now know that emotional intelligence is a superpower of mine, but I can tell you right now, data analysis is not. It's just not, mathematics is not. And I'm okay with that. Claude Silver (43:10.252) I'm really okay with that today. Utkarsh Narang (43:10.277) Hmm. Hmm. And it takes a lot of work on self to get to that stage, to get to that. Claude Silver (43:17.312) Yes. Yes. Unless you are lucky enough to grow up in a beautiful spiritual home where the principles of acceptance Utkarsh Narang (43:31.621) Hmm. Claude Silver (43:33.651) are loud and clear and I think that's a that's very special people that and very special spiritualities that probably profess that at a young age. You know that's a conversation for another day but but you know the idea of acceptance of self that we started this conversation with with self judgment. Utkarsh Narang (43:49.475) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (44:00.014) Yeah. Yeah. Claude Silver (44:00.995) but coming back to this idea of acceptance of self, yeah, of course I would wish to be taller. It's not gonna happen, right? I wish I didn't have to wear reading glasses. I do. Okay, so let's move on. And what are the great things I wanna do with this five foot two person here, you know? Utkarsh Narang (44:06.307) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, correct. Utkarsh Narang (44:21.957) There's this quote that I used to use a lot which said, we suffer more in imagination than in reality. And I was at an offsite a few weeks ago and as you were reflecting and introspecting and meditating and doing all of that, what came to me is that we suffer more in imagination than in reality, but we can also make the choice of finding more joy in imagination than in reality. Claude Silver (44:50.158) That's nice. Utkarsh Narang (44:51.129) And it's such a good switch. such a... I think it's in our neurons that they keep taking us to that negative side of things. And who are we to call it like negative or positive to whatever that baseline is. And I think if we keep working and reworking our own thoughts, then we can be more of ourselves at work is what I'm hoping and praying for. Claude Silver (45:13.006) I hope and pray too because I have to believe that the way we were imagined and the way we came to be human beings was not to be full of self-hatred, was not to be full of self-doubt. I have to believe that. I do believe that. So we have work to do, but there are many of us on this path. Utkarsh Narang (45:26.117) Hmm. Claude Silver (45:43.278) that no, the workplace can be different. We can show up differently. We deserve to be happy in the workplace. Utkarsh Narang (45:54.566) Yeah, we deserve it. It's the most amount of hours that we'll spend doing anything in our lifetime and to not be able to be happy at work is not fair. It's not fair. Claude Silver (46:08.32) is not fair to yourself. And then all of the angst, the Sunday scaries, that's not fair either to yourself, right? So we have work to do, both from the leadership, both from the individuals, both from the culture. What is that culture that's holding you? What is that culture made of? Is it made of fear and scarcity? Utkarsh Narang (46:14.565) Hmm. Yes. Claude Silver (46:34.262) Okay, well, that's not going to work for me. I don't work well there. Is it made up of friendship and camaraderie and collaboration? I can do that. Utkarsh Narang (46:44.793) Yeah. I'm imagining, again, this is an assumption, but I'm imagining that when you build this culture, when you do this work of heart at Winer Media, which is a massive organization, which will have its own chaos. And on the outside, it looks like everything's happening seamlessly, but at the back end, it can never be so. How are you creating that camaraderie, that heart-based culture? at such a massive organization. At scale. Claude Silver (47:17.516) Yeah, at scale. Yeah, at scale. So first and foremost, I work for Gary. And he's very outspoken, whether or not it's on social or in our conversations about doing the right thing. Being the bigger person. Right? So we have that from our CEO. He has put his trust in me to be what he would say the emotional framework. of the company, I would say the emotional barometer, as I said earlier. And my job is to scale that. My job is to be with enough people so that they get the love, they get the possibility, they get the opportunity, whatever it is, they get the connection. that I can give them and connect them to all other people. I have a wonderful team, it's called People and Experience Team. I never wanted to do HR, so I changed the name and have a great team globally. I was just in, as you know, was just in Singapore and Sydney, Australia, checking out those teams for the first time and I'm so proud of them and so inspired that they also are scaling the heart. And then in all offices, I have designated culture champions. Now culture champions have a day job. They have their own jobs. But I know I can call on them. I can slack them and say, I heard Peter is having a really hard time. His dad's in the hospital in London. Can you please find him and see if he'd like to take a walk and get a coffee with you? I can do that. And I can rely on these people. Or it's your first month and I say to you, hey, have you met anyone outside of your team yet? No? Okay, good. I'm gonna introduce you to five people. Here we are. Please meet my new friend. He's in the media department. He loves surfing. Can you find 15 minutes in the next two months to have a Zoom or a real coffee with him if you're in his location? And that way you've just met five wonderful people. Claude Silver (49:33.429) and guess what they're gonna do, introduce you to five more wonderful people. And so that's how it scales. And when the people come to me after their first month, their sixth month, their year, and they say, wow, I thought this was too good to be true, but it actually, this is a great culture, which is wonderful. I want them to feel that. I don't want them to know what's going on sometimes in the back. That makes me feel really good. I'm like, yes, great, okay. Now I know they're gonna go sit down. next to Mary and Sarah and they're gonna have that good vibe. You know, I hear it in the kitchen. hear it, know, culture is built in these micro moments. It's not the big sign on the wall here. It's passing you in the bathroom and saying, saw you got engaged on Instagram, congratulations, or my God, I'm going to this concert tonight. You're going there too, cool, whatever. Utkarsh Narang (50:27.545) Yeah. Yeah. Claude Silver (50:29.9) We can do that. We know how to do that. Utkarsh Narang (50:34.745) We're human beings wired for connection. And so we can absolutely do that. And I think what you're sharing is just create this conscious system almost that makes culture or spreading culture beautifully a self-fulfilling prophecy. Claude Silver (50:51.01) Mm. Yes, I hope so. Utkarsh Narang (50:57.315) If you would do... summarize something from the book to a listener who's listening right now and wants to be more of themselves at work. What would you say Claude? Claude Silver (51:13.504) Every single person deserves to bloom and blossom. And that means you, and that means getting to know yourself. Like get to know yourself so that others can get to know the real you. That might be what I would say to them. I would also say to them, What does it cost you to not show up as yourself every day? Like really, tell me, tell me, when you walk through the doors every day, what do you put in that backpack? And you know, if you ask someone that, they can tell you. Well, I put my sense of humor. my gosh, why would you put your sense of humor in the back? Well, because people might not think I'm funny. Well, how do you know? You know, or someone said to me, I put, this was someone in a different country, I put the fact that I'm a really good mate and I'm like a guy's guy into the back and I just show up very professional and serious. Claude Silver (52:22.294) What does that cost you every day? person's probably going to leave at some point. It's not going to work. It's not sustainable. Utkarsh Narang (52:29.817) Yeah. And what would he have gained by being that mate to so many at work? Claude Silver (52:37.526) You mean, my God, he would have gained friendship. He would have been a phenomenal leader. When I said to him is your team has no idea who you are, you haven't connected with them. You keep them at a distance. Utkarsh Narang (52:50.789) Yes. Utkarsh Narang (52:54.085) I think this idea like through the industrial revolution and all of that, like the last hundred years of work, this idea that you have to shed yourself to show up fully at work. I think the book changes that. And I think it's really important that this idea shifts because we're human beings. It's impossible for me to show up someone else to clod in this moment and then go and have an argument with my partner and then go and scold my children and then be an amazing leader. This disconnection cannot work. Claude Silver (53:22.83) It can't, it's too much up here. It's too much stress in our body. It adds to anxiety. Who should I be now? What imposter should I be? Put on this mask with you, because I'm on a podcast with you, but then I'm going to go play with Barbies over there and I'm going to be a different person. I just don't, I can't afford to do that to me anymore. And I really think... Utkarsh Narang (53:28.484) Yes. Claude Silver (53:49.209) People can't afford it. It's too much, too much, too much stress these days. We need to alleviate ourselves from all of this burden that we put on ourselves because the world is putting enough on us. Utkarsh Narang (54:07.471) Such a powerful conversation we've had. Now if we go into the future Claude, to the 80 year old Claude, the age zero, a few decades in the future. If that Claude were to come to you right now and give you one piece of advice, I see a big smile. I see the song playing. What advice would that Claude have for you? Claude Silver (54:27.566) Great question. Claude Silver (54:35.298) Continue to communicate your truth. Claude Silver (54:40.248) continue to lead with heart. Don't shy away from it. Utkarsh Narang (54:55.299) everyone who's listening. In today's episode we have given you lot of questions to reflect and deeply introspect on. What song is playing in your head? What are you... What does it cost you to not show up as yourself? Utkarsh Narang (55:16.133) It's just this idea of knowing yourself better and connecting with yourself. This innate sense of belonging. Where do you show up as where you fully belong? And so much more. Thank you, Claude, for this very beautiful conversation. I appreciate you for being here. I felt belonged to this moment. Claude Silver (55:37.582) Thank you. Me too. Utkarsh Narang (55:39.269) Amazing. Thank you. To everyone who's listening on a podcast platform, share it with others because that's how the wisdom spreads. And if you're on YouTube and you've spent 60 minutes listening to this, so that means this was worth it. So yeah, make sure you send a comment to us and look forward to seeing you in the next episode. This is Utkash Shantlaod signing off.