Utkarsh Narang (00:00.885) Welcome to another episode of the IgnitedNeurons podcast. And this one, when I met this person, he was in Canada. And so we were across the globe. But now I have the joy and the pleasure of welcoming Chris back to Australia. How does it feel, Chris, to be back in Australia, but also on the podcast? How does that feel? Chris March (00:20.162) Feels great, as we were talking just before we came on, this is truly one of the most beautiful places on earth. So I'm grateful to be back, I'm grateful to be re-experiencing things that I grew up with. It's beautiful. Utkarsh Narang (00:34.327) Amazing, amazing. And I always do this to our listeners, Chris, I give them like a hypothesis that based on what I know of you, and I don't know enough yet, but based on what I know of you, I'm pretty sure we'll talk about scaling businesses. We will talk about leadership. We will also maybe speak about how do you really thrive as a human being in this day and age? And I don't know where this conversation goes, but that's the hypothesis that we'll play with. Chris March (01:01.976) Sounds great to me. Utkarsh Narang (01:03.127) sounds like a plan. The first question is that we kind of kick off the conversation and it just takes us to the deep end of things. If that eight year old Chris, who I'm assuming was growing somewhere in Australia and you'll correct me if that's wrong, but if that eight year old little boy were to come to you right now and have a conversation with you, what do you think will emerge through that conversation? Chris March (01:27.182) Whew, it's a beautiful question. And I think, when I think about that age when I was eight years old, firstly I was obsessed with basketball. So the first question I probably asked myself was, did you make it into the NBA? I had incredible hooped dreams growing up when I was younger. My whole life was centered around basketball. So I think... Utkarsh Narang (01:37.761) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (01:43.101) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (01:50.721) Hmm. Chris March (01:51.639) my eight year old self would be asking those questions. Where did basketball take you? Where have you been? Because I remember vividly growing up watching basketball, being enamored with Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant, and that's really where I thought life would take me as an eight year old. So that's probably where the conversation would be centered around basketball. Utkarsh Narang (02:10.208) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (02:16.385) Got it. And what would your response be to him? Because I'm assuming that you're not a basketball player, but yeah, let's go deep on that. Chris March (02:22.881) Ha So I didn't quite make it, so this would be a different conversation. So once I got to the age around 20, 21, when I realized I wasn't going to make that, I made a pivotal decision at that point to really travel and see the world. So I would say to my eight-year-old self, no, I didn't quite make basketball, but I also found something even more that I'm closely passionate about, and that is travel. and travel has taken me to incredible places and really has helped shape me into the person that I am today. And I firmly believe that travel is the greatest teacher that there is available to us in life. Utkarsh Narang (03:08.567) Fascinating, fascinating. I'd love to know a little bit more on that because at 20, 21 years old, how did travel come into the picture and then what were those early experiences that you still kind of very passionately and vividly saw are recalling? Chris March (03:24.856) Yeah, so at that age, as you are still figuring out life... And it's a rite of passage for most Australians to live in the UK, which you're probably becoming familiar with. Our culture is very similar to the UK. And one of my good friends at that point, his older sister had lived in the UK. I think she came back and was raving about it to us. So I think we just made a decision that we've got to go and live in UK, in the UK and explore, have fun. And at that point, I hadn't really traveled too much. I think I left the country once to do an after Utkarsh Narang (03:34.155) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (03:37.697) Yeah. Chris March (04:00.081) schoolies trip as we call them here in Australia or spring break trip in North America. So I hadn't really traveled too much and then that trip to the UK changed my life. I ended up staying for two years in the UK and then came back to Sydney at that point in 2007. Stayed for just over a year and booked a one way to Vancouver and that's where I've been living for the past 16 years in Canada which has brought me back to Utkarsh Narang (04:01.131) Mm hmm. Yeah. Chris March (04:30.01) Australia today. Utkarsh Narang (04:32.259) Wow. Like help me understand. And I come from India, right? So for me as an Indian, I'm still integrating myself into the Australian culture and the understanding of my eldest son comes and tells me at 14 years old that I want to work at a Coles or at a cafe. I'm like, what the hell is wrong with you? Because that's the thing that I've kind of been raised with. So help me understand what is A, the fascination about travel? Chris March (04:39.32) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Chris March (04:50.72) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (05:01.173) that I'm seeing a lot in the Australian kind of mind space as you're referring to. That's the first question and then I'll go to the next one. Chris March (05:12.034) Well, I think as you're understanding yourself, Australia is so far away from the rest of the world, which is a good and a bad thing in a lot of different ways. We can be certainly isolated. Also from a travel perspective when we travel typically Australians take longer trips because we're so far away from the rest of the world and typically When I travel a lot of my travels through the throughout the years you always typically run into Australians Kiwis the Brits European different people as well because generally highly traveled cultures in a lot of ways. I think that's part of it. And as I mentioned earlier on, a big part of Australian's culture is from British culture. So naturally we have this gravitation to move to the UK in a lot of ways. And I think there's a statistic around... Australians in London specifically, I think it's around half a million every year on working holidays visas or even staying permanently from that point as well that that number may be a little bit outdated but I remember reading that recently so that just kind of shows you where Australians are traveling to and I think London's such a such a great city your launching pad to take you anywhere in Europe Utkarsh Narang (06:27.648) you Utkarsh Narang (06:31.703) I love how you're giving me this almost new perspective that it's also how the geography places us in Australia. And it also could be that London is A, that there's this deep connection that Australia shares with the UK and that kind of wants you to go to London. But then also how it opens the world up for a young Australian growing up and maybe 18, 20 years old. But then when you took that one way ticket to Vancouver and I... Chris March (06:57.55) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (07:01.783) took a one-way ticket to Australia very recently, two years ago. There's a lot of fear and doubt, and then there's excitement also. Just take me back. What did it feel like? Was it thought through that you're going to take this one-way ticket to Vancouver and come back in 16 years? Where are we on that? Chris March (07:09.454) Yeah. Chris March (07:20.654) So after I'd spent a glorious two years in the UK traveling, having a great time, I had different friends coming and exploring, living with me, time of my life, really was. And then I came back to Sydney, wanted to ensure that I felt that excitement, that joy of travel. So I lived in Coogee, which is a very popular transient place where overseas backpackers live. So I wanted to remain in that mindset. And then I booked that one-way to Vancouver. Vancouver as I said, my sister who's a couple of years younger than me, she followed in my footsteps or like most Australians, you can... moved to London and she was in London at that time and she wanted to keep traveling. She said, I'm going to move to Vancouver. And I said, perfect. I'll meet you there. So I ended up living with my sister and her partner for, for a year. And that just made it a bit more of a soft, soft landing, of course. But for me, it was about continuing that. Utkarsh Narang (08:16.695) Mm. Chris March (08:20.884) excitement and that joy of traveling and meeting new people. And I hadn't reached that phase where I'd settled down, have kids. I was just in exploring, figuring out myself as a person through this as well. Utkarsh Narang (08:28.311) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (08:33.152) Mmm. Wow. I love how a simple statement, right? I'll see you there. And you're going from London to Vancouver. I'm going to see you there. It's almost like you're going from one suburb in Melbourne to another. I'll see you there. I'll see you at that cafe. I'll see you soon. I'll just take a flight that will take about 20 hours, and it'll get me to where we'll meet each other. You spoke about understanding yourself and finding yourself. How does... Chris March (08:47.138) Yeah, yeah. I'll see you soon. Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (09:02.391) travel in your mind, and then travel is a big part of your journey. How does traveling really help us explore who we are? Chris March (09:06.35) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Chris March (09:12.332) I wrote a post about this. maybe a couple of years ago. I said, the best thing you can do for your growth is move to the other side of the world or move completely away from your home city. It could be from Sydney to Melbourne. It could be from New York to LA, whatever the city is, but really putting yourself in situations that make you uncomfortable. And as you said, you go over to a different country, you're learning a different culture, you're, you're learning a different way of life. It really puts you in, in those situations, which helps, you grow as a person. And that's what I think is really the beauty about travel and I've been fortunate to do that a couple of times, move countries, move cities. And I think that's the best lesson you can ever teach yourself is to put yourself in that situation and see what comes about. Utkarsh Narang (10:03.351) But that that almost sounds really brave, Chris. And so I'm going to play like the devil's advocate because, say, some of our listeners are are in the age group of, say, 25 to 40. Right. And they are at a stage when they're either getting into that space where life's going to kind of settle down or is already settled down and they are in in their jobs for 10 years, have a family. And I'm going to put myself. Not not the right kind of Chris March (10:11.502) Mm-hmm. Chris March (10:20.226) Yeah. Mm-hmm. Utkarsh Narang (10:33.149) example to look at, right? So because I also made this shift two years ago. But for someone who is not brave enough or who feels like, why do I need to push myself out of my comfort zone? What's how do you help them? Chris March (10:37.294) Mm-hmm. Chris March (10:45.848) Well I think everyone's different. I think naturally about my brother who's never really traveled or left Australia and for him that's fine. He doesn't want to do that. I think each person is different so you can't force those different type of things but if you want to really learn a lot about yourself... and pushing yourself to grow. know it's cliche, the only way you're going to grow is through those uncomfortable situations and doing things that you've never done before. And this is the beauty of it and moving to another country. such as the UK or Canada will certainly see what you're made of. And I think it certainly pushes you to grow so much as an individual. as I said, I'm a person that has really been built on travel and the experience that I've been through. My journey is different, not to say that everyone has to travel in order to get to where they need to be. But for me, it certainly helped me so much. Utkarsh Narang (11:36.225) Mm. Utkarsh Narang (11:44.535) I love that. You know what, what this is reminding me of many years ago, I did a course in photography and I used to love that. And I still love that. I don't do that often. And the first thing that the instructor on day one told us was that every single day or the next six weeks, I think six weeks was the length of the program. You have to do something that's different or that's uncomfortable. And they asked us to do something as simple as Chris March (12:09.176) Yes. Utkarsh Narang (12:12.533) Like I would brush my teeth with my right hand and they said, Utkarsh, start doing it with your left hand. In the first few days, it felt really uncomfortable. But what they were trying to do was to trigger a different part of our brain. And I think this is what you're also kind of nudging slash referring into. so, so to our listeners who cannot shift where you live or cannot change places or cannot drastically so take that one way ticket from Delhi to Melbourne or from Vancouver back to Sydney or Sydney to Chris March (12:28.686) Mm. Utkarsh Narang (12:41.143) to London, just try and push yourself from that comfort zone a little bit. Because ultimately, as you're saying, Chris, the cliches are a cliche because of reason, because they've been done and repeated a million times and they yield a slightly better result, maybe is all we're saying. Would that be fair to say? Chris March (13:00.27) That would be fair and I think hearing this, it reminds me of a quote, everything you want is on the other side of everything that you're avoiding. Utkarsh Narang (13:10.167) Everything you want is on the other side of everything you're avoiding. Give me an example. Chris March (13:19.854) So let's say you are scared of public speaking. For example, let's just say that. Or you're afraid of bungee jumping. Let's say bungee jumping. So you go out and do that because you know that it's scary. You're to be scared throughout the process, but it could be one of the greatest experiences that you ever have. I think naturally as human beings, Utkarsh Narang (13:24.791) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (13:44.503) Hmm. Chris March (13:48.045) We learn fear as we get older. I'm sure you probably have those same memories as a kid. have vivid memories of riding down bikes, down hills that were literally like this with no helmets on. And I'm not telling people to wear no helmets. It's a long time ago, but wear a helmet. But driving down these hills on my bike, my hands behind my back, just no fear, no fear at that stage. And I think we learn fear as we get older. So Utkarsh Narang (13:50.124) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (13:56.758) Yeah. Right. Chris March (14:18.52) we become more adverse to it. So think about the things that you're avoiding right now and push yourself just to do it. Could be one little thing. It doesn't have to be bungee jumping. Could be driving a certain way or doing something that you've always want to do. Learn a guitar or some different hobby, right? Utkarsh Narang (14:22.293) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (14:36.951) Yeah, changing a career, finding a new job. You're in a toxic culture, but you feel like the job market's not. And when we're recording this, is April of 2025. So, so yeah, people could, could feel that. I love what you're saying. And another thing that comes to mind as I'm thinking about that and fear is something that's very close to my heart. I gave a TEDx Chris where I spoke about fear lot. I think Chris March (14:38.732) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (15:04.65) I think it's our relationship with fear that shifts because we do have a certain level of fear when we are born, but those are basically out of the reflexes, right? And everything else to us is where we are able to be courageous. But as we grow up, as society tells us that things have to be in a certain way or you have to walk in a certain way or you have to talk in a certain way or you have to dress in a certain way, that's when we start to fear those situations. Chris March (15:07.757) Mm-hmm. Chris March (15:13.848) Mm-hmm. Chris March (15:19.928) Mm-hmm. Chris March (15:28.652) and Chris March (15:33.645) Yes, I would agree with that as well. we have today where there's so much information being thrown at us, it's hard to know what's real and what's not with the advancement of AI as well. So we're really in a complex time for human nature as well as kids. Even growing up, I'm sure you're experienced this overall. It's certainly complex to be a kid with the digital world that we live in now as well. Utkarsh Narang (16:02.039) 100%, 100%. And the world is evolving so quickly, I wonder. And my younger son, Chris, he's 11. And so by the time he has to get into uni, and I don't know if he'll get into uni or not, but in about six or eight years, the world would be a very, very different place, a very different place. Chris March (16:09.922) Mm-hmm. Chris March (16:21.612) Yeah, it's interesting to see how things quick, how quickly things are moving. It's, it's incredible. I, I follow a couple of AI creators and the, the way things are evolving, it's, it's light speed. Things are coming out, then they're up, they're overcoming those things. It's, it's hard to keep up. Utkarsh Narang (16:39.467) Yeah, it is so hard to keep up. And I want to kind of have our conversation have the human thread while we speak about AI, while we... And to me, like, the core or the denominator of this conversation is going to be travel because I want to kind of keep coming back to that. It's a fascinating topic. What do you think in your experience, maybe... maybe an experience that you remember or something that you can vividly like almost as you close your eyes, think about that travel experience that you've had that you feel is something that's worth sharing, but also is very vivid for you as a human being. Chris March (17:11.374) you Chris March (17:19.534) Hmm There's so many it's hard to Pinpoint I've been fortunate to travel a lot. I would have to go back to the first ever trip when I moved over to To the UK. I remember it vividly because it felt like such an event It was a sliding door moment. I had a girlfriend who I'd been with for a number of years She was at the airport upset My mom was there, my dad was there, whole family was there. So I think it was just such a huge momental moment for me to be taking off where I hadn't really traveled at all. And here I was at the airport about to travel 24 hours away to the other side of the world to really catapult and change my life in so many different ways. If I never left Australia, I probably would married that girl with multiple kids right now. But... my story was going to be something completely different. Utkarsh Narang (18:13.847) Very interesting. And imagine we're talking about, and which again feels like it makes me feel like we're so old, but we're not. But what I'm also thinking like this, this is a time when you did not have like you could get off and do a FaceTime call back home. Or this is not a time when you almost like had internet in the airline. Chris March (18:21.87) Maria. Chris March (18:32.75) No, this was 2005, 2007 when I lived in the UK. We had calling cards. Hopefully most people know what they are, but you'd have to pay pay as you go credit to utilize a number to call back to Australia. So it was a third party source and the minutes were really expensive. Utkarsh Narang (18:43.412) I don't think so. Utkarsh Narang (18:57.057) really expensive. Chris March (18:57.622) It's really, really expensive. So having a conversation with people on the other side of the world back 20 years ago now, it was a different time. So, and we didn't really have much social media back then as well. It was just really you and your support network that you had on the ground. Utkarsh Narang (19:07.585) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (19:15.319) Yeah, what a world. I remember even like an incoming call on the phone was paid for. So I remember back home in India, used to do like, if I've reached my friend's place and I want to kind of call them downstairs, I just give them a missed call and cut the phone so that they don't pick up. And when they pick up, like, what the hell, man? What's wrong with you? Why did you pick up my phone? Chris March (19:21.244) Yes. Chris March (19:28.888) Yeah. Chris March (19:36.366) They were simpler times, right? And I always think about how do we meet up with people who just told them you have to be there at 7pm and if they didn't turn up at 7pm, just have a good night. We'll see you later on. Utkarsh Narang (19:38.604) They were. Utkarsh Narang (19:47.959) Fascinating. How did we decide what place to eat? Because there was no rating to go to. There was no Google to search the reviews for. But absolutely simpler times, right? Simpler times. Yeah. Yeah. Chris March (19:59.437) Yeah, they were great times, but we're sounding antique in a lot of ways. Utkarsh Narang (20:04.213) Yeah. Part of me also feels like, does the generation today really get to enjoy that serendipity, Chris, because now we almost like over plan. And I'm also making that error every time. Right. We over plan our meetings. We over plan our conversations. We over plan when to meet, where to meet, what to eat. We send menus upfront that please select what you want to eat because you don't want to kind of waste your time. Chris March (20:12.462) and Chris March (20:21.41) Yes. Utkarsh Narang (20:30.665) So how have you seen that evolve in your journey as well? Chris March (20:34.784) I think it's interesting you mentioned that you mentioned AI and I think we're seeing a world dominated with AI however the superpower is going to be the human centered approach of leadership. AI is a tool in service of you in the service of humanity at the end of the day and I think it's really really great to see that human Utkarsh Narang (20:47.543) beautiful. Chris March (20:59.456) humanity is coming back to the center of everything because at the end of the day when we think about leadership coming from the leadership lens is that we're people leading people. That's what it comes down to. That's being human at the end of the day. And to your first point, I'm trying to do things that are more human. Not being addicted to my phone, just going with the flow of things, not having a plan, just enjoying life and going with the unexpected versus living through a calendar. Utkarsh Narang (21:16.983) you Utkarsh Narang (21:26.475) Yeah. Yeah. Powerful, powerful. Since you spoke about, I think this idea of human-centred leadership, think that's very close to my heart as well. And as we segue into this conversation around leadership. A, one question that's poking in my head is like, what is Chris's definition of leadership? So A would appreciate you to kind of shed light on that. But then also, again, taking it, taking us back to travel, how has traveling through these diverse cultures, meeting new people, how has that influenced your leadership muscle, Chris? Chris March (22:01.422) So I'll answer, great question, and I'll answer it in two parts. I think I've been fortunate to live and work Australia, the UK, Canada, North America, and the one thing that I see throughout it is that people need to be seen, heard, and valued. That's what it comes down to. That's what leadership is about is making sure that you understand people, you meet them where they're at. making sure that they feel value, understanding the person in front of you as well. One of the key things that I like to do anytime I step into a new role as a leader is just get to know every single person. Get to know the person. Listen. what motivates you before I start rolling out any strategic changes or my vision or my goals. I really want to understand what motivates every single person. What are they seeing on the front lines that I may not be able to see or what feedback they haven't heard. And for me, that's important when it comes to leadership. I've always come from the lens of I want to be the leader that I wish I really had. know it's cliche, but it's so, so important. You're a leader who is, who is, is there to help people get better. It is your responsibility, it's a privilege to be a leader. And I think a lot of people lose sight about that little piece is that you're not just given a role as a leader because you're a high performing individual contributor. You see it, I'm sure you've seen it in different workplaces as well, where people are put in the leadership roles where they're great. individuals but they're not great leaders or they're not great at human connection and helping people move forward and I think that's the piece when it comes to leadership that is missed in a lot of ways. Utkarsh Narang (23:52.215) But it's so simple, right? Because what you said and I totally 100 % resonate and deeply believe in what you're saying. Just three things, right? Seen, heard and valued. And that's what people need. But you don't see that, Chris. I'll let me be honest. So I've recorded about 20 plus episodes of the podcast till now. And when I just asked the guest like feedback later, one thing that says that Utkarsh, you were listening to me and I was listening to me and this this felt like a conversation. And then I feel like Chris March (24:19.704) Yes. Utkarsh Narang (24:21.663) And should not all podcasts do that? And I'm not saying podcasts don't do that, but last year I ended up getting interviewed about 40 podcasts and I saw that there were some who were just wanting to go through like a list of questions and get this shit done with. And I feel again, coming to active leadership, it is such a simple thing, seen, heard and valued. There is infinite gigabytes of content that's out there in the world that's being published every single day and you and I are not different. So we are also part of that content piece. Chris March (24:30.702) Mm. Utkarsh Narang (24:51.563) And we're doing it because we see that leadership is still not where it should be. Where is that pitfall? Where is that gap that we are unable to identify? Chris March (24:56.462) Agreed. Chris March (25:03.918) Poor leadership, has to come down to, and I think that's a big part of it. And to your content piece, I shared a piece of content last week, which is incredibly surprising to me. 85%, I'll say that again, 85 % of new managers or leaders do not receive formal training. Chris March (25:25.56) How are you setting people up for success? I just couldn't believe that when I read that a couple of weeks ago. I doing some research for content and that came up. So I think there's just such a huge leadership gap right now with all the complex things that we're dealing with, the shift of the elderly workforce coming in, then we have the Gen X people that are coming in. They have different priorities and you have such a... Different variety of people having different needs and you as a leader are being asked to do so many different things and then you have AI diversity It's never been more challenging to be a leader. But to your point, I think we overs we over complicate something which is so so simple simplicity at its finest Take care of people Utkarsh Narang (26:06.806) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (26:13.751) Yeah, yeah. And I think that's where the challenge is, right? Because we're playing this again and again in our head and trying to make it really complex, trying to take people through these hours and hours of content or take them through these leadership workshops and conferences and whatnot. And I'm not saying that they're not valuable. I that to me is like my bread and butter. That's what I really work for. So I'm not saying that that's not important, but I'm saying is that how do you really simplify the model? And so what you and I are saying, Chris, is that Chris March (26:22.914) Yes. Utkarsh Narang (26:43.049) It's as simple as just these three elements of being seen, heard and valued. And if that can be figured out, then we can help people become better leaders for and then who can help develop new leaders for the world. Chris March (26:56.61) Yeah, help people become better at work and outside of work. Understand what motivates them. Where do they want to be in four five years? You've heard the standard question. Where do you see yourself in five years? But ask that question. Where do you see yourself outside of work, here? Help people get there is such a huge thing. And I think sometimes we just don't sit down and have those conversations. And I think the biggest word that keeps coming up here is Utkarsh Narang (27:02.647) Hmm. Chris March (27:25.088) Are leaders caring enough? Or are they just ticking boxes? Utkarsh Narang (27:26.839) you Chris March (27:30.914) And I think a lot of times people are just ticking boxes or not even taking the time to sit down and listen to people and understand what their needs are. Utkarsh Narang (27:41.057) Yeah. So let's challenge ourselves, Chris. And I'm starting to throw these challenges to us because, know, if a young leader is watching this right now, or if someone who has been in leadership for five years, what they've done is they've seen maybe some form of leadership that's been kind of passed on to them as generational trauma or as whatever we might want to call it. And they feel like Chris March (27:51.117) Yes. Utkarsh Narang (28:11.049) Utkarsh, Chris, you're talking about all of this, but this kind of leadership does not work in the real workplace. In the real workplace, you have to be authoritarian sometimes. You have to get things done. There are deadlines to match. So this warm and fuzzy seen, valued heard, this kind of leadership does not work. If there's someone who's listening to this, but is also on the edge where they feel like, okay, I'm going to give it a shot what these guys are saying. Chris March (28:16.366) Mm-hmm. Chris March (28:27.918) Mm-hmm, yeah. Chris March (28:37.358) Mm-hmm. Utkarsh Narang (28:38.347) How do we build a model for them? If you were to try and give them like really practical tips on how to shift themselves from being the leaders who they are to becoming a better version of the leaders that they can be, what's been your, what's your guidance? Chris March (28:53.986) great question and I think it comes down to again really asking the questions of your people. The best feedback that you can get is the people that you work with. Utkarsh Narang (29:01.885) Mmm. Mmm. Chris March (29:08.31) with the people you direct reports. And I think a lot of times as a young leader, I know this was a challenge for me was asking for feedback, soliciting feedback for myself, but having those conversations. And if you're listening to this, are you asking for feedback? Are you having regular one-on-ones or cadence with one-on-ones and framing them around a supportive, open. conversation and ask those things. How do you think I'm doing as your leader? If I was, if you were in my shoes, where do think I should be focusing more of my time? Where do you think I can improve as a leader? Is there, is there certain things that you feel that I can continually work on? think those conversations and those feedback that you get from the people that you work with will be helpful to you. It will also require you to detach yourself. Utkarsh Narang (29:38.113) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (30:00.713) Yeah. Chris March (30:00.92) from the feedback in a lot of ways and don't personalize and hold onto it. It is constructive, it is a roadmap to help you to move from point A to point B. So firstly ask the people that you have reporting to you and then in most cases you always have someone reporting to you as well. Are you getting what you need in terms of the development from them? Ask very similar questions. What do you see I'm doing well? What am I not doing right? Utkarsh Narang (30:25.489) Yeah. Chris March (30:29.452) And then from there, really you should have a good understanding of where your opportunities lie. Utkarsh Narang (30:34.571) Yeah, that's these are some pearls of wisdom that if you're listening, note down to these questions, because I think I absolutely agree with you, Chris, that these asking these questions and we don't create enough space for such questions, but asking these questions is going to give you insight into what you can do, into how you can improve yourself. And it's a valuable piece. But I think I'm going to speak of a challenge that I've seen as a a prereq to this, Chris, because what happens is that And some of, and I am trying to play like the devil's advocate for our listeners. they'll be like, Chris, Chris, I love the questions. And yes, the questions make sense. But when you go and ask these questions to your people, sometimes all you get is crickets. Chris March (31:18.989) Yes. Utkarsh Narang (31:21.153) where, where, where, and I have my hypothesis, but where is that coming from? Chris March (31:23.522) Yeah. Well, it's, it comes from everything, your equity that you've built up to that point. So if this is your first one-on-one, you've been in that role for a year and all of a sudden you're like, Peter, it's, it's time for us to meet. And then you pull out five different questions that they never heard before. Utkarsh Narang (31:30.955) Love that. Chris March (31:46.295) Naturally, you're going to get some level of hesitation, right? I think it's it's a cadence that you need to set up and you need to start chipping away Slowly just have some very open-ended questions the first couple of times And once that the other person on the end of the conversation sees that you're creating a cadence He's met me one time this month and then the next month and the third month I guarantee you as you continually sit down in that chair and give people the space and you ask better questions Utkarsh Narang (31:49.015) Absolutely. Chris March (32:14.69) then you'll get better responses. Utkarsh Narang (32:16.459) that. Love that. So build that trust, build that equity because unless you have that, no one's going to respond to these questions. And these questions can sometimes also ask people to really deeply reflect on the relationship that you and them have. And so I think another piece that I'd recommend to our listeners, Chris, is that they could probably just send these questions upfront in an email or on the calendar invite before they kind of are setting one one and because then Peter's going to be thinking like, what the hell man, am I going to get fired today? Because my boss never asked me like, Peter, can we meet and I have a few questions to ask you. So love that. So build that equity. Do that through these consistent practices, touch points where you can have people feel seen, valued and heard. Once you build that equity, what you're saying Chris is, and some open end questions, some questions that will help you get some great feedback as to what you're doing right versus what you're not. so that you can start to build upon that. And then next I think what comes is that based on what you have received, you start to really put in the action because if you don't, then why the hell did that meeting happen? Chris March (33:28.416) Exactly, and I was going to mention the point around giving people the time to validate, go through those questions in advance through a calendar or an email invite, whatever works. You know your people and I think you'll get to understand everyone as you go through that process. And you mentioned a really good point, I think. where the opportunity lies and where you'll get even more credibility, equity is in the action that you do afterwards. If they're giving you actionable feedback around certain tasks, you then take that away. And then when you have the next conversation, you either update them at the time of the meeting or in between to let them know. Then that shows you can follow through with what you're being asked as a leader, which is huge. Utkarsh Narang (34:11.415) Yeah, yeah, super powerful. And it also helps you build trust, right? Because, and I have these conversations in the workshops that people would say that they'll get something done, but then they don't. And they say that they'll get this done only for the sake of the conversation that they're having with the other person. And I think that's the biggest way you can, you know, trust with your people. So that's something you should never be doing as a leader. Chris March (34:23.597) Yes. Chris March (34:30.702) Mm-hmm. Chris March (34:37.486) 100 % it takes weeks, months, years to build trust and you can lose trust just like that. always be careful of the words that you're using and the actions that follow through with it as well. Utkarsh Narang (34:49.441) Yeah, yeah. What are some do not do kind of behaviors, Chris? And I don't know this question came from from from just this conversation you and I are having. What are some behaviors that you would say if they're like top three behaviors a leader should never be doing? What would those three be according to you? Chris March (35:07.192) Do as I say, not as I do is a huge, huge one. You as a leader have the ability to model the behavior of your team. So making sure that you're very similar to what we're just talking about, making sure that your actions align with your words. Don't go against your words. If you say, I'm going to do X, or this is the expectations of us as a team, let's say coming into the office three days a week. It's a hybrid situation. And then you don't come in, you come in one day a week. That's going to erode trust pretty quickly there. Other things that I would say is making sure that you Utkarsh Narang (35:37.451) Yeah. Chris March (35:46.411) consistent with your words as well. Nothing worse than not being consistent in your words and people not being able to understand exactly what you're telling them. Communication is one skill that is the most critical. I would put it in the top three. I'm sure you would agree as well, is making sure your communication skills are aligned with the message you're trying to convey as a leader. Utkarsh Narang (35:57.695) Mm. Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (36:09.921) Yeah, yeah, love that. think we are very aligned with what you and I are speaking. If you were to now look at just this, the impact that AI is having on leadership, Chris, and both of us have our views. And I know it's a very fascinating time because all of us have AI to our disposal and it's become a mass product so quickly. mean, two years ago, if you were to ask someone that, is there something called... Chris March (36:21.144) Mm-hmm. Utkarsh Narang (36:38.123) chat GPT, I mean, at least as a mass product, no one would have known. But now it seems like from my 10 year old to an 80 year old is trying to see like, can I talk to chat GPT and figure a recipe out, figure something out or figure life out in some cases. How are you seeing AI influence the path that leadership is starting for itself? Chris March (36:51.406) Thank you. Yeah. Chris March (37:01.814) It's a tool. It's a collaboration tool and I think it helps leaders become even more excellent than they already are. It's a thinking partner in a lot of different ways. I use it sometimes when I'm thinking of a certain situation. I do not use that as a clarification tool, but I certainly, if I want to bounce around ideas and someone is not available, it's certainly there to help you as a partner. It can also coach you in a lot of different ways. you're thinking about certain things or if you're working on a project, it can certainly help you with that as well. I think it's a tool to help extend your excellence and I think the education and awareness is the most important part for you as a leader or someone who's just really starting to understand the basics, making sure that you understand what are the principles of what AI can and can't do to help amplify your leadership effectiveness. Utkarsh Narang (37:57.687) Absolutely. And so well said, Chris, I think, I think it's a, it's a, it's a train that everyone should experience and there should be no one who does not get on this train just because they feel that they feel a sense of fear against this technology because it's not going to, it's not going to take over the world, but it's going to make our lives better. I love this idea. And I love these brainstorming conversations that I have with chat GPT, because that's my go-to tool. I just love it because it asks me questions. Chris March (38:03.821) Yes. Chris March (38:21.922) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (38:26.675) that I would not have thought about for myself even while thinking for the business. So absolutely agree with that. And I think then the whole kind of the meat lies in putting things into practice because chat GPT can give you a hundred thousand ideas to execute, but it's the human who's going to kind of make shit happen, make things happen. Chris March (38:28.942) Thanks. Chris March (38:46.117) Exactly, you're still the driver when it comes to the conversation. So you need to ensure you're clarifying the output and also you're being crystal clear in terms of the prompting that you're doing as well. You just can't put in a simple prompt saying, give me a presentation for tomorrow's meeting. You have to be crystal clear around what you do it. So education around making sure you're making use of the tool is really, really in your advantage as a leader. Utkarsh Narang (39:10.827) Yeah, yeah, 100%. As I'm having this conversation with you, Chris, I'm thinking, and I know how much you've traveled over the last few weeks, I'm thinking like, we are having this conversation, has Chris's jet lag over or is it not? But I'd love to know like what's in store because it's a big shift to travel back to almost your home country from a country that's been home for 20 years. So what's been emerging for you as an individual? Chris March (39:24.316) Hahaha! Chris March (39:40.471) It's been, it's been great for me. I finished up my COO role at the end of January and then had to pack up life. We left at the end of February, spent some time in Vancouver. was living in Toronto. Previous to that, I lived in Vancouver for eight years and then Toronto for eight years. I was repositioned out there with work. So I've lived on both sides of the country as well, which was fantastic. And then I was fortunate as you and I were communicating before we recorded this, was traveling through Southeast Asia. for five weeks, which was incredible. I hit 80 countries now that I've been fortunate enough to visit. And for me, I'm just enjoying the time off, figuring things out as I enter this new phase in Australia, coming back and re-educating myself on a completely different market. I'm still coaching people. I'm still creating content. I've been reading a lot. I've just been really slowing down and appreciating things really more. as I come back to Australia, just wanted to really feel gratitude and spend as much time with family and really embrace being on this side of the world as we reset and start again when it comes to living in Australia. It's exciting. Utkarsh Narang (40:55.563) Beautiful. 18, you said eight zero. Chris March (40:58.926) Yes, 8-0, 8-0. Utkarsh Narang (41:00.833) Wow! Which is the continent that is still left untouched? Except I'm assuming Antarctica. Chris March (41:08.982) Antarctica is the one continent I haven't been to yet. South America is high on my list. I've done Colombia, I've done Peru, I've done Argentina, Brazil, Bolivia. So I would say South America is high on my list for sure. I've been fortunate to do a lot of travel through Europe when I lived there. Also the Middle East is certainly high there as well. India is certainly high there as well. I just love traveling, there's still a lot more for Utkarsh Narang (41:17.665) Mm. Utkarsh Narang (41:24.598) Hmm. Chris March (41:38.896) to see. So being in this part of the world, I'm definitely going to see closer destinations, which is cool. And also Australia is a pretty beautiful country. I've seen more of Canada and Europe than I have Australia. I haven't been to Cairns, I haven't been to Perth, haven't been to Hobart. There's a lot to see. Utkarsh Narang (41:55.831) Absolutely, 100%. And when I asked you about your travel memory, think what emerged for me was when we came to Australia, we, within a few months, I think planned a trip to Grampians. Have you been to the Grampians? Chris March (42:08.814) Poor Australianess. Utkarsh Narang (42:10.007) So you should you should plan that trip. And it's it's a it's like a two hour drive from Melbourne. Right. So so we went to this place where it's kind of the highest point of of the the whole national park. And you see and it's the winters, right. July. So I planned this. My wife planned this for my birthday. And I was standing there at the top point and there was just clouds underneath. It seemed like I've reached this this place called heaven. Chris March (42:16.056) Mm-hmm. Utkarsh Narang (42:38.655) where there's nothing else beyond this. And to me, like I still refer like we were in India for a couple of weeks, just a few weeks back. I keep telling my wife, we have to go back to heaven. You have to go back to heaven because because Melbourne is actually actually having 80 countries. Beautiful. Let's let's have more conversations that I'd love to know more stories. But as we get into this, this number prompts me to this final question that I have for you, Chris, is in a few decades from now, with all the adventures that are left to be taken. Chris March (42:38.67) Ha Chris March (42:45.57) Mm-hmm. Utkarsh Narang (43:07.735) there'll be a point when you'll be 80 year old, eight zero. If that 80 year old Chris were to come to you right now and have a conversation or give you one piece of advice, what do you think that 80 year old will have for you? Chris March (43:22.104) Such a good question. Chris March (43:27.126) It would be around life, I think life just goes by so quickly and I'm sure you appreciate that as you have kids. Appreciate the time that you have here. Don't hold anything back. Don't second guess yourself. Just do it. just do it. I know that seems over-emphasized with Nike, but I think it's just such a simple mindset. And one of my goals for this year was just to really be all in in everything that I do. And I think my 80-year-old self would say, go all in, have no regrets, life is short, be proud. Utkarsh Narang (44:05.153) So powerful, so powerful. I love that advice. So for anyone who's listening, we've spoken about a few fears. We've spoken about things that hold you back. We've spoken about leadership. We've spoken about it in terms of people, but you're at the end of the day also leading your life. So let's take Chris's, the eight-year-old Chris's advice to heart. And if there is something that you wanted to do, just go ahead and do it because... Chris March (44:22.19) Yes. Utkarsh Narang (44:32.735) What the hell? Who's going to worry about the consequences, right? Because it's only you that is responsible for you and your loved ones. So don't do things that might don't drive down a steep hill without a helmet because that might put you at risk. So don't don't do that. But but whatever is is a dream that you're chasing, just go do it, because at the end of the day, it's going to be worth it. Chris March (44:45.262) Very homey. Chris March (44:55.822) 100%. Life is so short and I think we spend so much time worrying about what other people think when they're only concerned about themselves. It's just you against yourself. So only worry about the person you were yesterday and a year ago. Utkarsh Narang (44:56.759) Amazing. Utkarsh Narang (45:08.023) against yourself. Utkarsh Narang (45:11.765) Yeah, love that. Thank you for this time, Chris. Thoroughly enjoyed this conversation and wishing the best in all the adventures and hopefully you get to hit another 80 countries before you get to 80. Chris March (45:24.014) That would be amazing. I'm hoping to get there one day, but thank you for having me as well. Bye bye. Utkarsh Narang (45:28.363) Absolutely. Take care.