Utkarsh Narang (00:01.358) Today have someone with me who graduated from Harvard, has written about 45 books, children's books, and that's not all of her work. Her work for me is the definition of that is that something that nourishes your soul is worth doing. Welcome to another episode of the IgnitedNeurons podcast. Today I have Bracha joining me from Israel. How are you Bracha? Bracha Goetz (00:25.075) Wonderful, I'm very happy to be here, thank you. Utkarsh Narang (00:29.038) Absolutely, and I'm looking forward to this conversation and I do this hypothesis, Bracha, that in our conversation, what is it that you and I will speak about? My hypothesis today is that if listeners listen to us for the next 30 to 45 minutes and wherever we pause, I'm sure that we'll give them some takeaways that will allow them to feel that their soul is nourished. Would you agree with that? Bracha Goetz (00:50.485) I hope so, yep. Utkarsh Narang (00:52.278) Amazing. Love it. Love it. And the first question, Bracha that we initiate the conversation with at the podcast is if that eight year old little girl, the eight year old Bracha, wherever Bracha was growing up, if that Bracha were to come and meet you right now, what kind of a conversation will emerge? Bracha Goetz (01:10.751) Well, I think that she would be amazed. When I was 18, I felt, well, okay, let's put it this way. I was searching desperately. I don't know why, but I was searching desperately for the purpose of life. And I had been working really hard in high school and I started studying like everything I wanted to learn. about the most wisdom possible. again, like you, I was a curious person and I wanted to learn and learn. So I started doing well in school. I did really well in high school. And then like all these colleges wanted me to come like Harvard. I went to Harvard because I felt like this is the epitome of wisdom. So here I'm going to find the wisdom I've been looking for. And at 18, I was really excited to go there and also to meet all these children of the most famous people in the world. And then the up and coming famous people too. Yeah, it was like, and I felt like I had made it. This is it. This is the pinnacle of existence. I've reached the top of the mountain range. I'm going to tell you a story that this is what happened there. Okay. So I was invited really through my boyfriend to this very elite party with all these people. And it was a garden party on this beautiful day in May. And I was so like I was holding my breath. was like so excited to be there. Like I felt like this is it. like I've made it, you know? So. Bracha Goetz (03:10.93) In this, what I noticed is that everybody was kind of just holding their glasses and talking to who they were talking to, but kind of looking beyond them. Everybody was looking for something more. That's how it looked to me. Like everybody was still searching. It wasn't it. And then what happened is that the clouds filled up, the sky, suddenly there was a tremendous thunderstorm. And the whole party just fell apart and everything got sopping wet and it was over. And I felt like, wow, here is the most powerful kinds of people and they can't even stop the rain from coming down on the party. There's something more than this. I don't know what it is. I felt like I'd reached the top. the illusory top that I thought where there'd be something and there was really nothing special there and that the people there were still needy and what was it then? What was it? What gives value to life? What brings real joy? I felt like I got to see the top of the mountain and there was nothing very special up there. So that was a big blessing in my life that at 18 I got to see that. And so the 18-year-old would be saying to me, like, what is there? Is there something that's worth it? Is there a pleasure that lasts in life? The search began even deeper at that point, because when the mirage is gone, then you're left with real devastation. OK, there's nothing. And I think at that point, I really spiraled. with my like eating disorder behavior at that period of time it went really downhill, realizing there was nothing to what I was striving for. What is there? Is there nothing in this world? Utkarsh Narang (05:20.013) As I'm listening to you know, there's so many questions that are emerging to me because for an 18 year old to be at Harvard, that's like the dream, right? And to see the top of the mountain and then also feel that it's empty to be asking these deeper questions, to be yearning for more. There has to be something that might have happened in those first 10 or 15 or 18 years, which might have led to those questions because those questions And maybe I'm wrong. Those questions don't come naturally to the human soul. Is that assumption correct? Bracha Goetz (05:55.871) It's an interesting question because I don't know, my sister used to say to me, why do you care about the purpose of life? Who cares? So like many people don't go around feeling that, but there are some more, I think, exposed souls that are really craving for meaning and nourishment. And I think actually those people are often prone to addictions. because you feel that emptiness. You think you're aware of the emptiness more than other people, like my sister, for instance, who is just okay with going about life without knowing the purpose of existence. And I even used to ask my parents those questions too, like, why does she care about this? But I don't feel like I had a really traumatic childhood or anything. I feel like I had a lot of love and I grew up in a very sweet, humble, modest, tiny apartment where my parents were like, why are you going to Harvard? Like this doesn't fit in with our image, but I had this relentless need to understand life. I don't know where it came from, but some souls are more sensitive and more exposed than others. And why I think they are prone to addictions, because we feel the emptiness inside. We're very aware of it. And we try really hard to fill it with externalities, physical things. And it doesn't last. It makes the hole get deeper and deeper, because it's not a physical hole. It's a spiritual hole. Until we get the spiritual understanding of what, we're spiritual beings here in this physical clothing. So until we understand that and understand our purpose here, then we feel aimless. If we have exposed souls like that, they can be covered up, but those that are more exposed can feel it, certain sensitivities. Utkarsh Narang (08:17.697) That's powerful because you spoke about these exposed souls that are craving for more. You're bringing in the spiritual lens and I belong to Hinduism and India. And it's not that it's to me, there's a stark difference between religion and spirituality. And I feel like I'm on the spiritual side of things rather than the religious side of things. And so I'm not going to say that I belong to one religion, but in terms of just my understanding of spirituality and my My grandmother used to say this when I was very young and I don't know what she meant by this, but she's coming back to me in this moment as you and I are speaking. She used to say that, Utkarsh you're a mature soul who has traversed through the ages and the realities and whatnot. And you've gained through those experiences to be who you are today. And I was like six years old at that time. I had have recollection of her repeating this, but I have no idea what that means. And so I want us to speak about this idea, right? What's the difference between having a physical void versus a spiritual void? What does it mean for us to be spiritual beings walking on this planet? Bracha Goetz (09:30.613) We, there's a spark of divinity in each of us. We are all a part, it's an energy. We're all part of source energy. We all share it and all, all the gifts, all the blessings in our life come from this source energy. A recognition of that changes everything. to a spiritual lens. Utkarsh Narang (10:04.439) But it's really hard, Bracha, for folks who are not exposed to this idea, who have not yet traversed this path, they would be right now listening and thinking, let me move to something else, because they're talking about some higher fluff meta level things that don't make sense. So make it real for me. Imagine me to being someone who's... Bracha Goetz (10:27.071) Okay. Utkarsh Narang (10:30.035) not gone into this path does not understand what it means to be a spiritual soul or all of that and I have no idea about what spark of divinity is within me so explain it to me Bracha Goetz (10:35.584) Okay. Bracha Goetz (10:39.666) Okay, I'm going to make it so real. This is an orange. And this orange, like all the fruit, they are green. They're green on the trees when they're not ready for us yet. And then they become the most vivid, beautiful color when they are ripe and ready. They're calling to us, we're ready. And they become this. beautiful to give us pleasure to look at, pleasure to smell it. All our senses are experiencing pleasure with this fruit. And look at this orange. It is preserved. The sweet juiciness that the orange that you hold in your hand, its sweet juiciness was preserved just for you. Just for you to experience pleasure. So you've got this and then you peel it. You bite in, you experience the taste pleasure, and then you're left with these seeds, these seeds of eternity. These seeds that can become infinite more orange trees and infinite more oranges, and it's amazing. So this tiny orange, just one tiny gift was created. It packs inside of it. Infinite intelligence and infinite loving kindness. This is in just one tiny orange. So now expand that to all the many, many, many, you can't even count them, all the blessings in your life. The fact that you're breathing, the fact that you're listening right now. It's endless, all the amazing gifts. And if you analyze them with with mindfulness just for a moment, you will be able to pause and savor the pleasure, the loving kindness that's packed into it to bring to you. Utkarsh Narang (12:47.117) As I'm listening to you, first I was just visualizing the orange in my mouth and as I chewed into it, it burst into the flavors and the juices came out and I was imagining all of that. But I, there are a lot of mirror neurons firing in my brain right now because this is something that whoever is listening to the podcast might have heard this already, but I keep telling my children who are 14 and 11, I keep telling them when I eat a banana, the flavors, the sweetness that's been put into a banana for me that I get to savor and enjoy. It is such a blissful moment. When I have a cup of coffee, it's such a blissful moment. And to be grateful for these very minute, almost microscopic joys in life, I absolutely understand that. And I love that we're having this conversation. But then there are people in the world who are... And no one's right or wrong, right? Maybe it's like for us human beings also, we are not yet ripe and we have not fallen from the tree to be receiving this soul-nourishing wisdom. But in a world that's obsessed with feeding the ego, in a world that's almost draining the soul, what does nourishing the soul look like? Bracha Goetz (14:07.328) Nourishing the soul, okay, here we go. This comes from ancient mystical wisdom. It's called the pleasure ladder. There are five levels to nourishing the soul. The lowest level is what we just discussed. It's all the physical pleasures in the world. The natural physical pleasures that were designed to nourish both our bodies and our souls. We experience them with our senses, but when we also feel gratitude for these things, that's when our soul gets nourished as well. If we move up the ladder, like take anything, spending time in nature, moving our bodies, dancing, whatever you enjoy doing, yoga, gardening, Music, these are all natural pleasures designed for us to nourish our hungry souls. And when we experience them with gratitude, we are not only nourishing our bodies, but also our souls. If we move up the ladder, the next level, on each level up brings more connection. Connection to what? Connection to source energy, connection to vitality. and greater and more lasting pleasure. The next level up is called love. It's when you, and this is totally empowering. We can bring these pleasures into our lives at any moment. And so how could we say love is empowering? We need somebody else to experience love. So we don't, we actually can bring love into our lives without anybody else being there. If we focus on what we appreciate about that other person, the spirit of the other person, if we let their spirit into our hearts, then we can experience love. Even in prison, even in the prison of addiction, even in a real prison, a person could imagine a grandmother that once did a kindness for them and they can be uplifted and inspired to become a better person. Bracha Goetz (16:32.926) We can bring love into our lives at any moment without being in the physical presence of another being. If we move up the ladder, the next level up is meaning. When we do something good and meaningful, we are uplifted, we are nourished, we feel even a greater and more lasting pleasure. I was on another show and And when I got to this level, the host said that he was feeling miserable and lonely. And he bought a whole pizza pie and he finished two slices of pizza and he was about to plow through the whole box of pizza when there was a knock on his door. His neighbor needed help for two minutes to move some furniture or something. When he came back into his apartment, The loneliness was gone, the pleasure was there, and he didn't need the pizza anymore. He stuffed the rest in the fridge for the next day. He had filled up. He had filled up with pleasure. What we all want in life is lasting pleasure. We were designed to want lasting pleasure. That's why we get addictions like overeating, because it brings us immediate pleasure. And then we just keep stuffing our faces because it keeps the pleasure lasting. But obviously, that doesn't work well in the long run. It never fills. Because when we finish the whole container of ice cream, we feel emptier than the container. It doesn't fill us up. So these are the things that truly fill us up. appreciating another with gratitude and now giving back with gratitude when we do something for another, we are grateful that we can give. That's how the host felt. Grateful that he wasn't alone. He felt connected. When we are in an of addiction, we are feeling alienated. We feel disconnected. We feel alone, lonely. That's what changes as Bracha Goetz (18:52.736) as we feel gratitude. Gratitude is a bridge of connection. And this is a surprising one. Above meaning is creativity. It's when we put a unique part of ourselves into the world, like anybody could stuff envelopes for the organization, almost anybody, and you feel good about doing it. But when you're creating a podcast to help other people or or you're making a meal for someone your own special way, or you're telling a joke in the way that you do, that no one else could do, whatever you're doing in giving your special smile in the world. When you give a unique part of yourself, then you are on, you go into a zone where it's like beyond time, you don't feel like eating or sleeping, you're in that zone of creativity. It's such a high. It's a tremendous pleasure. And when you do it with gratitude, it takes away the fear of failure. takes away the ego part of it. You are just channeling that glorious energy. You're just bringing it into the world. What's been channeled to you, you're just recycling through the universe and it feels just so awesome. And that's the highest level is that awesomeness. The highest level is called transcendence. It's recognizing the oneness, the unity of everything in the entire universe. So we've come from a place of complete selfishness. That's when we're in an addiction, just focused on ourselves. Or anxiety and depression too. We're just inner focused. And this is what brings connection, the gratitude. Transcendence is recognizing that everything and everybody is connected. We're all. We're all part of the same soul, actually. We're just put into illusory separate bodies, but we really are all one soul. And that transcendence, like we've all experienced it, like under a starry, starry sky at night in the country, we know we're a part of this greater universe and that never leaves us that feeling. So that state of awe and wonder, Bracha Goetz (21:19.104) It affects us both physically and spiritually, of course emotionally. It creates the most disease fighting chemicals when we're in that state of awe and wonder. So it's proven to be the most pleasurable state and bringing us the most lasting pleasure. And we can come back to that state. We can go back there. We spend the least amount of time on these two highest levels. but they are reachable. We spend more of our time on the three lower levels. But at any point in our day, we can go to any of these places on the ladder. on my website, people can get this with the information put in. They can download this free chart of the pleasure ladder. It changed my life. Yeah. Please, yeah. Utkarsh Narang (21:50.029) Hmm. Hmm. Mm-hmm. Utkarsh Narang (22:10.829) Beautiful. I love this. I love this. And you've so seamlessly in about six or seven minutes given us like tremendous wisdom that we can dive deep into. So for just kind of summarizing it for our listeners. So we start off with the first step of the ladder, which is the physical pleasures, which is eating that orange, which is sitting with someone who or not even that. So right now it's just the physical pleasures of our surroundings of things that we can acquire through. through just physical movement. Then next we move to love. That's ladder number two, which is when part of us can start to feel that we need someone to feel loved, to experience that love, but that love can, we can bring that love to our own life in any given moment at, at, at free will, if you're ready to receive that love. Third stage you said was meaning. When there is meaning to our existence, when there is meaning, whether it's as small as supporting the neighbor. mowing the lawn for someone, being kind to someone, and it could be small or large meaning, whatever that looks like for each person. The level four was creativity. I love when you said that because building this podcast on some days feels really tiring. But as soon as I'm in this zone, talking to you, talking to other guests, or someone messaged me, episode got a smile to our face. This episode changed the way we think about certain things. That moment, is so special that it's beyond what I can explain in words, Bracha. So I deeply respect this aspect and this fourth ladder of creativity and then transcendence. The experience of awe and wonder. That's where we all maybe can aspire to reach to, which is where we are all one, which is where we're all part of that cosmos, the universe, the spiritual energy, whatever. Utkarsh Narang (24:15.809) term you want to give to that. Let's take a pause. Physical pleasures, love, meaning, creativity and transcendence. Over the next few minutes, Bracha, what I would love for us to do is to imagine someone who's standing at the base of this ladder and is wanting to go up the ladder to stage five. Let's first speak about what does stage one look like where maybe someone's not even appreciating the physical pleasures, not even appreciating that orange, not even appreciating that banana that we spoke about in your experience of and what I love about our conversation today, Bracha, is that because I'm sensing that you've written those 45 books for children, you have this beautiful ability to simplify the message for the listener. And so if someone's standing at the step of that ladder, What would they be sensing right now? How would their life be right now that they feel that there is a need to go up this ladder? Bracha Goetz (25:25.662) You feel the need to climb the ladder if you don't feel that your life is full of joy right now. That's what it's about. It's just about, and all my books, as you mentioned, are about teaching gratitude skills. That's the secret to joy. It's that simple. It's not complicated at all. If we live a life of gratitude, then we live a life of joy. So, and any moment, any moment that you spend in gratitude is a moment that you're not miserable. You don't have to be happy all the time. You don't have to worry about that. Just take one moment and experience gratitude. That's what builds it. think, as you know, like as the neurons fire together, they wire together, The more we practice gratitude, we create pathways in our brain. When we travel on a road in a car that has never been traveled on, it's very rocky and gravelly and you can barely get the car to go. But once you put those grooves in the road, it gets easier and easier. That's all you gotta do. any time you practice gratitude, as you practice anything in life. It gets easier and easier and, and the practice is joyful all the way through. Like it may feel awkward, but it's just like, it's awkward cause it's new when you start being grateful for things you weren't grateful for before. But each time you do it is a joyful experience. So that just builds on it. We, I learned that it takes 400 repetitions. to create a new habit. But if you do it playfully, joyfully, 10 to 20 repetitions and you've got the habit down. That's all it takes. Practicing gratitude more often, 10 to 20 times, you become a more grateful person. It really is that easy and easy and joyful. Utkarsh Narang (27:48.494) Love it. So, so step one is someone who you feel is, has this sense that there is not enough joy in their life. And I'm just kind of thinking out loud here that if I am someone who feels there's not joy in my life, then I'm someone who dreads the Monday morning because I have to go back to work. I'm someone who hates the weekend because, because my family takes away all my time. I don't like grocery shopping. I don't like the traffic. I hate driving because my car goes too slow. I don't like my life because I'm not taking vacations and I'm just putting myself in those shoes. And I feel like there's, there's something missing all the time. There is, there is this, this, this experience of that. There's a void that there is something that is not complete that there is that everything that happens. see. Bracha Goetz (28:28.309) Yes. Bracha Goetz (28:32.437) Yes. Utkarsh Narang (28:44.801) the glass empty. don't see the water in the glass. I see it empty. that a good description of someone who's on that stage? Bracha Goetz (28:52.892) Exactly. And we all have that voice in our heads. It's got a job to do. I wrote a book, one of my books for children is called Don't Read This Book. It's written in the voice of that inner critic. All day long from morning till night, it's getting us to focus on what we're missing, what we're lacking in life. That's its job. And what is our job? Here, we have to push it. It's really a personal trainer. That's what that voice is. And it's designed specifically for each person. It knows where your weaknesses are. It knows how to get you, what to get you to focus on. So once it knows that, it tells you, look at what you're missing. You don't have this. You don't have that. Instead of, so you see it. The first step I teach children in the book is recognize that this voice is talking to you. That's number one. Once you recognize that, then it loses its power right away. Because it's like, it gets in different disguises. In the book, dresses in different costumes. That's what it does. So once you recognize it, you push it away like a barbell. You increase your muscles and that's how you grow your gratitude muscles. Recognizing it and pushing it, pushing that force away. The thing is, that book, don't read this book, it took me 30 years to write it because I didn't have the wisdom until, 30, I had the title of the book, I had most of the book written, but I didn't have the surprise ending. And that is recognizing. that even that inner critic inside your head, it's there for a good purpose. It was given to you to become better, to rise above the challenge, to push it off and grow your gratitude muscles. That was an amazing revelation. And so I'm sharing it now with young children. If you gain these happiness skills early in life, your whole life is on a different trajectory. Bracha Goetz (31:12.448) You know from the beginning of life and you can accomplish so much more when you don't have unnecessary pain in your life. Utkarsh Narang (31:22.157) Yeah, so true. And I love how you're making it visual for us from the orange to the ladder to now the dumbbell. And I think it brings me back to also when I'm coaching people, you know, I see them come up with thoughts that we can call distortions, we can call the inner voice speaking against you. And the inner voice says that, Utkarsh, don't raise your voice in the meeting because no one is going to listen to you. Or the idea that you have, it's a stupid idea. Or the question that you want to ask. No one needs to know that question and that inner critic I asked them like if you're so aware of that inner critic Then what's stopping you from from not listening to it or listening to it? And and then I also help them understand that there is the benefit of that inner critic Which I think you've beautifully pointed out and I think everyone needs to read the book. Don't read this book But here's here's here's what I'm thinking Bracha in your work with when you're working with children know, children have this, they have the spark, they have this intensity, which I think is very different from adults. And so what do think children have taught you about the human soul that we adults tend to forget? Bracha Goetz (32:35.328) that's the thing. Children have a tremendous sense of wonder and curiosity. And if we're lucky enough, we don't lose it ever. I honestly feel that I didn't lose it. And I think that's why I write books for children. I still think like a child in many ways, you know? I have that sense of wonder. I love to learn. I think you're like that too. And I want to say also what you talked about, getting us to focus on what we're missing. Like, what we focus on grows. So if we focus on what we're lacking, that's going to grow in our life. If we focus on what we already have, if we don't take things for granted, that's going to grow. We're going to feel more and more grateful for what we have. And also, I forgot to mention. that the five levels, it corresponds to our five fingers. It's a reminder right in front of us that we have it within our own hands to bring pleasure into our lives at any moment. It's about appreciating what we already have, not about what we don't yet have, but what we, there's so much. In one of my newest books, The happiness box, this is, it teaches children, this is about a boy. He's miserable, whatever he gets he's not happy with. His parents get a washing machine and he's like, I don't get anything. So his father gets this idea and he says to him, you know, this box that the washing machine came in, it's really a happiness box. It's just for you. You go inside it, you can only think happy thoughts inside this box. And he's like, how do I do that? You know? But he goes in and he starts thinking of a couple of things he appreciates and then a few more. gets into it and he keeps going inside the box, becoming a more grateful person until one day he's on a bus with other kids and he's like other children and Bracha Goetz (34:58.688) and he's feeling lonely and miserable and he doesn't have the box with him, what is he going to do? And then he realizes the box is always with us. It's above our eyes, it's below our hair. We can always go inside this box, but we can practice with a cardboard box. We could start off there, and it's really good because children do that. They get the book, they make the boxes, they go in their happiness boxes and This book is just recently reprinted, but I wrote it many years ago. And I've had grown people come and tell me how it changed their lives. Like one guy, he was in his 20s and he told me how he was bullied as a child. He would go inside the box and start appreciating his life again so he could go out and face them and be a different kind of person. It got him through school. Utkarsh Narang (35:55.95) Yeah. And that's such a powerful idea. So to everyone who's listening and is with us 36 minutes into the conversation, one thing I want to share, Bracha, is the energy, the passion and the love with which you're saying all of this and sharing. I can sense it. You're sitting in Israel and I'm here in Australia. I can sense it from miles apart that there's this Bracha Goetz (35:56.138) This is where we can teach children. Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (36:26.135) true mission that you're on that resonates. So I really appreciate you for being here and sharing this with all of us. The other thing that I'm thinking is for everyone who's going through anything in their life and they feel that something's missing, I want you to right now draw a box. And in that box, write down five things. It could be joy, it could be gratitude, it could be health, it could be wealth, it could be... Bracha Goetz (36:32.288) Thank you. Utkarsh Narang (36:54.013) success, could be money, could be fame, could be whatever you feel needs to be on that box, but pick only five. And then every time you feel there's that inner chatter, there's that inner voice, there's someone who's stopping you from being who you can and want to be, just talk to yourself and say, it's time to go inside the box. The world has been popularizing, Brakha, the idea of thinking outside the box. I think you and I today are talking about let's think inside the box. Bracha Goetz (37:23.872) Beautiful, beautiful. We have these amazing boxes, which true, we have, and we can turn them into, into gratitude brains. That's what, that, that's what they are. We, we can train the brain to scan for positive patterns. That's what we can do. Utkarsh Narang (37:26.401) Yeah, amazing. Love it. Love it. Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (37:39.991) they are. Utkarsh Narang (37:45.838) Yeah. Yeah. We can train the brain for positive patterns. And one of those Bracha is something that I've been contemplating. And I think read this the first time many years ago in a, in a book that spoke about emotional intelligence. And then I think in atomic habits by James Clear as well, this idea that I should be doing this or I have to go to a job. I have to record the podcast. I have to do things. Instead of that, if we just change our words and say, I choose to talk to Bracha today, I choose to cook, and that just just relieves the pressure. It makes it so easy. Bracha Goetz (38:25.108) Yes, it totally changes everything. It's that inner critic making you think like, have to do this. I should do this. I get to do this. I'm so blessed. My body is working enough. I have, there's so many diseases I don't have that I could do these things today. Utkarsh Narang (38:35.724) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (38:46.551) Yeah, love it. The next 10 minutes, Bracha where I want us to go is that someone who's listened to us and wants to step onto this ladder. And maybe we'll have another podcast to go deep into each level of the ladder. But if someone wants to create three small practices for themselves that they can and that you and I can come up with and you already might have them, if they can practice those three things. to go up this ladder to reach to the final level of transcendence, what would those three be? And let's just slow it down. So share one, and then let's think through and brainstorm that, and then go to part two and part three. So what would be the first one? Bracha Goetz (39:26.856) Okay, I'm going to start at the bottom of the ladder, and I'm going to start with the problem of overeating, which I had this problem, because I think it's a very common problem. These are three steps a person could take right now if they feel like overeating. Number one, you don't put more things on your fork or your spoon You don't refill your fork or spoon until you've completely swallowed what's in your mouth already. This is what gets you to savor and linger with the pleasure you are already experiencing and feel gratitude for it. Otherwise, you just go through life. You see, it becomes a metaphor for your life. So you... You chew, you thoroughly chew it, you experience it. It's okay. It's okay. Even if you're doing something else, you could be watching the podcast while you're doing it. It's all right. You don't have to be so concentrating on your orange, but you don't take the next bite out of life until you've savored the first one. This, this becomes a practice that expands. You know how in yoga they say you expand off your mat? Well, this is expanding one bite at a time. You just experience that one bite and you don't take up, you don't put the next fork or spoonful together until you've experienced and swallowed what is already in your mouth. What you already have, until you're grateful for what you already have, there's no point putting in more. That's really what's going on. that is the, that's one step and I'm doing it in terms of overeating, but it could be applied to all types of addictions. you would experience whatever the, yeah. What did you want to say? Utkarsh Narang (41:32.077) I just love that and I don't want to kind of interject your thought but I think this is such a powerful statement I want to repeat this one more time don't take the next bite from life till you have experienced the first bite or the bite that you're having and be grateful for what you have Bracha Goetz (41:42.43) Yeah. Bracha Goetz (41:47.358) Yes. Utkarsh Narang (41:49.303) That's beautiful. That's beautiful. What's step two? Bracha Goetz (41:51.157) Yes, right, we could just do it any time, any time that we're eating. This is a gratitude practice that completely changes us as we're integrating whatever meal we're having. So the second thing is, again, let's say a person feels like overeating. I could so get into that head. You're experiencing pleasure and you just want to keep going. The person can say to themselves, If I have 95 more spoonfuls of this ice cream, will I then feel full? You know you won't. So that line is very, very helpful because then you realize in that moment, it's not the ice cream I need. It is the pleasure that I'm seeking. And the only way to experience real pleasure, lasting pleasure is through gratitude. So. So it completely changes it. And then you say to yourself, okay, then I will return to my pleasure ladder. And then I could think of, there's a, the reason why we stuff our faces is because we feel there's a scarcity of pleasure in our lives. When this pleasure ladder reminds us that there's an abundance of pleasure at any moment that we could bring into our own lives. independent of anybody else, we have this ability. It's in our own hands. You could put the chart on your fridge or your cabinet if you need a reminder. And it just helps you to think, right, I'm eating this now. I'm overeating because I want more pleasure in my life right now. What could I do? OK, if I don't really feel like exercising, I could just do a neck roll. just do a neck roll, see how that feels. I could just like do a wrist, you know, it could be such a minor type of physical movement, but you feel how good that feels. And you recognize you want pleasure. This is substituting something else on the lowest level, but, or you could go up to a different level. You could, to overcome a habit, you need a greater and more lasting pleasure to sub in. Utkarsh Narang (43:48.429) Hmm. Bracha Goetz (44:17.076) So that's what you do. You just, need a different, a different kind of pleasure. Right at that moment, you could sub it in and just that thought, even the thought that this finishing the whole bag of potato chips is not going to bring you the pleasure that you're really seeking right now. You are seeking pleasure, but there's so many other ways to bring it into your life. And, yeah. Utkarsh Narang (44:43.937) Yeah. So what we need to shift what I'm getting from that, Prakash, is that instead of going for that in the moment, momentarily experiencing those pleasures, which last for like a few seconds, go for more of the infinite kind of the lasting kind of pleasures, which I think come from the next steps on the ladder is what I'm, what I'm understanding. And I think it was very beautiful what you said that we operate from the scarcity mindset, which is kind of, Bracha Goetz (45:16.234) Yes. Utkarsh Narang (45:17.695) It's deeply wired in our system, which says that this pleasure in my life is going to be over. So let me take as much as I want because our pleasure comes from just the physical space. I often think about this, Bracha. So I don't like buying too many clothes. And so I have like this Uniqlo sweater. I have like seven, eight colors of this Uniqlo t-shirts and that's it. And I think that I don't need more because buying more clothes does not nourish my soul. Bracha Goetz (45:19.925) Yes. Yes. Yes. Bracha Goetz (45:40.116) Yes. Utkarsh Narang (45:46.113) But what if there is someone, Bracha, for whom their soul gets nourished by buying more things? What are they doing right or wrong? Bracha Goetz (45:46.165) Bye. Bracha Goetz (45:52.661) Bye. So I think the more gratitude the person feels for the clothes that they have, they won't feel such a craving to get more more and more and more. That's really how it goes. I just don't need massive amounts of food anymore to feel satisfied. Once in a while, I still get the craving to overeat. That's usually when I'm in a situation where I don't feel comfortable. Like I'm at some party and I don't know what else to do with myself. let's say, you just, you go to the food, you go back to, you know, your weakness. So then you have to focus. What else? I could step outside. I could feel a cool breeze. I could start dancing to the music. I could find someone else that looks lonely and uncomfortable and start talking to them. You, you, you, you, you. Utkarsh Narang (46:43.917) Yeah. Bracha Goetz (46:51.892) You reach for other things and that's what I tend to do now, to feel gratitude so I don't go into that old way of being. Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (47:00.545) Yeah. And so you're replacing those, that material joy of having, or that, that in the moment joy of having more food or getting that pleasure to with, with something larger. Love are two steps and go ahead. Yes, please. Bracha Goetz (47:13.76) And I want to say, it does bring you pleasure that very moment too. That's the thing. The potato chip gives you immediate pleasure, but so does gratitude. It gives you immediate pleasure and it lasts. It lasts way longer than the potato chip. Utkarsh Narang (47:20.811) Yeah. Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (47:35.285) Love it. I love it. What's the final step that you want to offer? Bracha Goetz (47:39.091) And the last thing is something else that you could say to yourself. When you feel like overeating, you ask yourself, is it my body that's hungry or my soul? That's really the question and you'll know the answer. And this question is coming from your prefrontal cortex. That is true. The part that's getting you to overeat is your reptilian brain, the top of your brain stem. the part that's afraid and scared, I won't have enough pleasure. I better eat all the chocolate chip cookies in this whole box or I won't have enough pleasure. Help, help, I need more pleasure. And then you say, wait, wait. And then you go to your prefrontal cortex and you instead, you put the energy here and you say, is it my body that's hungry? My body really needs this whole box of chocolate chip cookies. Or is it my soul that's hungry, my soul that wants to fill up on pleasure, on gratitude? Utkarsh Narang (48:45.783) such simple, easy, yet deeply impactful. And I think the only way, Bracha, that I'm getting from you and is true is that if people were to practice these with a lot of joy and with that childlike wonder, curiosity and awe, it'll come more naturally to all of us. Bracha Goetz (49:04.148) Yes, exactly. Utkarsh Narang (49:10.047) As we now come towards the end of the conversation, and I think this has been super useful, Bracha, if we were to go into the future to you becoming that 80 year old, eight zero year old self, if that 80 year old Bracha were to come to you right now and ask you to do one thing or advise you something, what do think that 80 year old Bracha would say? Bracha Goetz (49:34.559) Yeah, well, it's really close. It's only 10 years away. So, I mean, I'm like, thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you. Almost 70. So it's like, yes, it's been awesome. And I gotta say, I just wanna become a more grateful person. So I hope that 80 year old person, Utkarsh Narang (49:41.069) You- no way! You look 45! You- you're 70 you said? Bracha Goetz (50:02.546) is just experiencing more and more joy and is so grateful for being able to have learned this most important life wisdom. I think it's the most important life wisdom that there is. And so grateful that I've had the opportunity to share it with others, because that's really all I want to do now in my life. now I'm retired, I spend my life doing this. I spend doing this with my children, with my grandchildren, with everybody I meet. And of course, like the middle level, when you help other souls to shine, your own soul is shining more and more too. So it's selfish too. mean, it's filling me with more and more gratitude the more gratitude I spread. So I hope the 80 year old me is just. Just, you know, experiencing the joy of living a life of gratitude. Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (51:07.863) And I don't know why I want to share right now, Bracca, as you've reflected on that. I know when we met for 15 minutes earlier, before we did the podcast, I asked you that you're in Israel and so in the middle of a war zone. And I think I asked you like, how do you experience gratitude even in that state? And your answer was deeply moving. so what would your answer be? just want our listeners to also grapple their mind around that Bracca is not someone who's far away from whatever the real problems that the world is going through. It's a very, this experience of gratitude and this strong feeling of gratitude is a very real, worldly experience of awe that you're having, Bracha. Bracha Goetz (51:50.527) Yeah, it's true. I was here on October 7th when this war broke out. And I had no idea what was happening because I'd never been in a war zone. When I woke up and I heard the sirens, I told you I thought a car along just didn't stop. And there were more and more car alarms. And it didn't make any sense, you know, what was happening. And then, you know, we started hearing the missiles coming and My grandchildren were really close to a missile that fell. It's been a very different kind of experience for me being here. But like I say, know, when the hostages that are still in the tunnels now, when they've come out, those that have been rescued have said that like what kept us alive was just gratitude. And I think it was true in the Holocaust too. So when one of the hostages was recently, there was a video of him giving his can of chickpeas for the day and like, he's still grateful and he's marking down how grateful he is that he got this one can and that's what keeps us alive. gratitude is the best thing for our survival and that is our mission here to to just keep spreading, to have gratitude to the infinite oneness, the source of all, all the goodness, and everything is for the good. Even the struggles that we go through, it's all for an ultimate good. Utkarsh Narang (53:43.093) And with that message, thank you, Bracha. I'm grateful for you to show up to this podcast and to all the listeners who are still listening with us an hour into the conversation. Share with someone who you think will resonate with this, add meaning to their life and give them this gift of the five ladders. If you're on YouTube and you're still listening, that means you enjoyed this. So subscribe to it, comment and share this with others. And Bracha, immensely grateful again and thank you for being here. Bracha Goetz (54:13.504) Thank you.