Utkarsh Narang (00:03.758) Today I have with me Barbara. She's an IT professional, IT leader who turned into a philosopher and is building digital wisdom for our age. She is someone who is working on combining the human and artificial intelligence into building a platform that serves all of us in beautiful ways. In this conversation, we'll talk about this idea of digital wisdom and we'll talk about how to remove this anxiety that we have on AI and get ahead of it. Welcome Barbara to this conversation. Barbara Wittmann (00:33.919) Thank you for having me and I've never been introduced as a philosopher. Goodness, you know, I've been called many things, but not that. So, thank you. Utkarsh Narang (00:42.122) Absolutely. So when you come to the Ignite Neurons podcast, that's what we do. We make everyone into a philosopher. Amazing. Barbara Wittmann (00:48.298) That's amazing. Yeah, I'm excited to be here. Looking forward to our conversation. Utkarsh Narang (00:53.528) Absolutely. Super excited. And the first question will put you into the deep end of the pool because that will turn you into the philosopher. And the first question, Barbara, that we ask and start this podcast with is that if that eight-year-old little girl, Barbara, wherever Barbara was growing up, if that eight-year-old child were to come and meet you right now, what kind of a conversation will emerge between the two of you? Barbara Wittmann (01:23.221) Wow, that is a deep question. That's a philosopher question. eight year old girl, I would tell her that it's okay to be different. And it's okay to be loud. It's okay to speak what you think. and it's okay to dream big. And even if you are a girl, you can do things that everyone tells you you can't. Utkarsh Narang (02:04.046) Those are such simple words, but when you were saying them, I could hear the conviction and the emotion and the strength behind those words. What was that eight-year-old growing through that led to this conversation happening? Barbara Wittmann (02:25.861) man, at eight, I was, so first of all, I grew up in a small village in Bavaria. And when I say small, I mean small. We had seven houses, okay? And I was pretty much one of the youngest kids, or we didn't really have many kids. You know, we had a lot of old folk that had, they're still reliving war memories and, you know, are still kind of trapped in their own world. So there were a couple of people my parents age and then I was certainly the youngest child. So I had to build my own world in a way because there was, I mean, we were in the boonies, right? So my first grasp of freedom was getting a bicycle. And that was like my big, you know, oomph of yay, you know, now I can explore the world. And I spent my days in the forests and riding my bike around and, you know, talking to the trees and just being super curious about what is out there. And, you know, I wanted to be brave. I built those ramps to jump over it on my bike. And yeah, so I was an adventurer from the get go. And, you know, obviously I didn't fit the mold. I never really fit the mold. And then what got things toppled even more was when I started working in a bike shop because I wanted to get a better bike as I was growing older. And I'm like, hey, you know, I want to explore the world because I was like, that's my way to freedom, you know? And my parents were like, we can't buy you a mountain bike. So I went and worked at the bike shop for like five bucks an hour and I got one. Utkarsh Narang (04:26.797) You use this word freedom and how you connected that with getting a bicycle. What is it about freedom that I think in our deepest desires and heart, we crave the freedom. People can talk about getting into a nine to five job or getting into an entrepreneurial journey. They can talk about anything and everything. But at the end of the day, we seek freedom. What is it about freedom, Barbara, that attracts this human spirit? Barbara Wittmann (04:59.413) So the eight-year-old would have said, because I can go places freely, right? So I totally attached it to something extrinsic, but over time and growing older, I really found it to be a deeply intrinsic thing. You know, the freedom we give ourselves to think, to imagine, to do things. So it is nothing that anything external would give us. I think that's a very wrong... thing that we imagine, right? So that's something we need to find within. Because even if I, you know, move to a place that lets me roam freely, or even if I get the fastest car or something, I can still feel like I'm trapped. Utkarsh Narang (05:48.865) That's such a powerful reframe. We need to find freedom within. What does that look like? What's your perspective? Barbara Wittmann (05:59.925) We need to get out of the victim corner. We need to let go of certain assumptions. In my case, would have been like, well, I grew up in a farm village. I'm going to marry a farmer and I'm going to bake bread every day and cut grass, feed the chickens. So just getting out of that... I want to say the unintentional prison that our heritage gave us and allow ourselves to really think beyond and really see, you know, what is really my passion? What do I love doing? And it really took me a long time to get there because I was always upsetting the apple card, you know, lo and behold, I started my career in bicycles. Because I loved doing that. And that certainly wasn't anything that a woman should do. Because I was, you know, building wheels and frames and I even learned to weld. And I loved it because it was attached to my passion. It was attached to this, my, you know, this gives me joy and it tends to my heart. But everyone was like, are you still working in bicycles? Got a real job yet? So people can be so mean, you know? And then I was like, well, maybe I ought to go and do something different. And then I started working in IT because I figured, hey, you know, that's the, maybe that's gonna be something that people will think I got it, I made it, you know? Utkarsh Narang (07:54.413) Hmm. Barbara Wittmann (07:55.207) And this chasing of something of the external approval, you know, and I certainly did that for the better part of my life. That, hey, look, now I'm working for SAP, you know, anyone proud of me? Ho, ho, you know? And it didn't fulfill me, right? It's like, was, I mean, SAP is an amazing and large company and I made it to... Utkarsh Narang (08:03.511) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (08:08.257) Mm. You Barbara Wittmann (08:24.222) their top innovation team that was led by the founder. So I got to meet Hasse Plattner. Cool guy, right? My name is on several technology patents, but I still didn't feel like I, you know, I didn't feel success for me. Utkarsh Narang (08:27.735) Mm. Utkarsh Narang (08:32.279) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (08:46.861) So many things there, What you said, it's such a good question to ask, right? If you're again again asking yourself that, hey, hey, are you proud of me? Then you're giving them the permission of allowing you to feel fulfilled and successful, not a good match. You spoke about that it took you a while and I think the tech patents, the meeting the founder, all of this is people aspire for that. And... Some people can get fulfillment out of that and that's amazing. But for someone who's not getting fulfilled with where they are, how do they take this journey, Barbara? Because not everyone's, I was about to say lucky enough, but I'm saying not everyone's intentional enough to chase those dreams. Barbara Wittmann (09:19.06) Mm-hmm. Barbara Wittmann (09:37.813) Hmm. So I would think you have to see yourself in the full light. And that's what was missing for me for the longest time. So even though I was working for SAP and I was in this top tier team, I always felt like an imposter. Because I came from an arm of work that I didn't feel like I could talk about. Right? Because it... It's like it was so different. And then the other thing, I felt like an imposter because I never went to university. I was amongst the 3 % in SAP that never studied. So every day I went to work, I thought someone is going to uncover, someone is going to figure this out and I'm going to be doomed. So even though everyone else was seeing me as or seeing something in me that was like, well, you you bring great ideas and everything. I could not see that for myself. So my self-image of me was so different. And I see exactly the same thing when I go into companies today. Barbara Wittmann (10:57.96) This whole concept of self-image and how you see yourself and how the world sees you and how that is misaligned. That is a huge topic. Utkarsh Narang (11:06.957) Yeah, yeah. I was talking to someone, I think it was a couple of weeks ago and they said, we were talking about self-worth and they used this word, Utkarsh, self-worth is inherent. You don't need anything for your self-worth to be where you want to be. And as I'm listening to you, you you spoke about being the 3 % at SAP who did not study. Now, part of me, and the brain is programmed for negative bias, right? So, Part of me could also think about, damn, I'm in that top 3 % who did not study and are still at SAP and here they are like maybe Harvard graduates or IAMs or whatever they are. And here I am, I've worked my way up. I've been street smart to achieve that, but the brain tells you that they're going to uncover the truth and then I'm doomed. It's just so fascinating how the brain operates. Barbara Wittmann (11:45.31) Yep. Barbara Wittmann (11:56.878) it's it's self sabotaging all the way. And on top of that, I'm a woman in technology, right? That was 25 years ago. So, you know, I was not, it was not exactly an equal playing field. And yet I brought so much street smarts that I was looking at things a very different way and I could connect the dots because it was forgive me that very simple analogy, but it was like a bicycle, right? Utkarsh Narang (12:05.846) Yeah. Barbara Wittmann (12:25.701) It's like, okay, so all right, we got to kind of envision this whole thing and the frame needs certain parts and it all needs to work together. And you know, how do we do this? So the pure logic of making things work, making mechanical things work, totally translated into designing interfaces, into understanding integrated processes. So when I started working in projects, And then, you know, soon after I had reached the top team at SAP, I was like, well, I'm going to go and start my own business. for about 20 years, I have had a consultancy and also a software development company back then in Germany. And I was basically filling in where the big consultancies were leaving off, because when things are done, there's still a lot to be done. Right. And what I kept seeing repeatedly is people that had exactly the same issue that I had a long time ago. Because if you are working in an IT project as a business person, you're constantly doing the same thing and you feel like an imposter and you do not want to speak up in the room because there's a consultant sitting next to you. So you better, you know, whisper a possible solution. to the consultant in a side conversation and then he brings it up because people listen. Utkarsh Narang (13:59.308) Hmm. Hmm. Barbara Wittmann (14:02.258) So what I found is when you give these people the right empowerment, they can find their own solutions. It doesn't mean that the consultant goes away entirely because there's still a certain external impulse that's needed. But so much more can be invented and carried and done right in-house. Utkarsh Narang (14:26.701) Yeah. As I was looking at your LinkedIn and the banner there says, which is a word that I really deeply resonate with, upgrading collective intelligence. What does that mean? Barbara Wittmann (14:47.229) So what I learned very soon on is I cannot do it alone. And it took me a little bit to get there, you know, especially when I started my business, I'm like, okay, I need more of this warm intelligence. And I had to start breaking down my own picket fence around me. Because that is like... the most vulnerable thing you can do to start a business and go out on your own. Because you don't have anything that would guard you. I didn't have the three big letters that would get me through the door, right? So who am I? What's my profile? And I had to start doing my own work. So, collective intelligence starts with the individual person. And it starts with really looking at, you know, what we would describe as ego or insecurity. You know, all the assumptions we have about ourselves and all the limiting beliefs. So, it really is a clean-up of self. So, we can play nice with others. And if I get out of my own way and I stop the chatter in my head, right? And we all know that. You go into a meeting room, it's like, oh my God, he looked weird at me. He thinks I'm a dud, right? And then you start in the presentation and somebody is starting to look at the phone. It's like, oh my, it's boring. It's boring. Right? Right. It's like, and that's where it's, it's like, it's the spiral, right? So if I can grasp the mechanisms that start the chatter in my head. Barbara Wittmann (16:42.405) I can be the neutral person in the room that simply facilitates. Barbara Wittmann (16:51.631) And that's when collective intelligence becomes possible. So in a way we need to do our own cleanup to become better together as humans and once we are there we can become better together with machines. Utkarsh Narang (17:10.199) Let's slow this down. This is a powerful statement. So we need to do our own cleanup to be able to operate better with each other and then with machines. Barbara Wittmann (17:19.335) Yeah, yes. And it doesn't mean everyone in the company needs to do it because clearly not everyone is so excited about personal development work, So it goes by the coalition of the willing because I am a big believer that once you have installed several people within your organization or within your team that think differently and that think better of themselves, it ripples. Utkarsh Narang (17:28.844) Hmm. Barbara Wittmann (17:48.081) It's contagious, you know? People get curious, they're like, whoa, you know? Wait, that didn't phase you? What happened here? my, you know, maybe I could look a little bit more positive at things too. Utkarsh Narang (18:05.377) Let's spend a few minutes on this, this cleanup of the self. Barbara Wittmann (18:09.756) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (18:12.621) What does that look like? Because you gave some good ideas. I mean, you spoke about getting out of your own way. You spoke about silencing the chatter. But imagine someone listening to this right now. 38 years old. One kid building his or her family. Wanting to build a career and feeling like I'm stuck or feeling like I don't have enough time or feeling like, this this current environment of the globe. I just don't understand it well. Where do they begin? How do they start the cleanup? Barbara Wittmann (18:41.178) Are you asking for a friend? Utkarsh Narang (18:46.649) Absolutely. 100 % because I'm 40. So that's why I chose 38. I'm asking for a friend. Barbara Wittmann (18:48.082) Yeah. And honestly, mean, what you just asked took me the better part of, I want to say 20 years, because it was, you know, throwing spaghetti, trying this and trying that. And I got trained to become a coach. And then I added yet another angle of coaching expertise and I added a facilitator expertise and I'm like, I just got to know more. Barbara Wittmann (19:23.632) And I'm just pausing here a little bit because everyone who's listening, I'm sure it resonates. It's like, yeah, I just need one more thing and then I'm going to have it. But no coach training really invites you to dig very deep. Or none that I have found. So I started looking elsewhere and I started looking at more of a timeless wisdom angle. You know, what are the natural laws that have been in place for a long time and who is teaching those. So I started studying all of that and over time I started building my own little method and toolbox that is graspable for people. Because everything that I studied and learned it's always, it's a huge hot pot of things and you have to kind of piece it together on your own. and I'm a logical person. I need a red thread. Somebody needs to tell me, this is step one, then you do this. Here's a practical example, right? So this is what I have built basically out of my own experience. So I start with personal values. I have a values assessment and you come out with your core values. Because I believe that values are understated. It is something that are our roots. We talk a lot about it, but we don't enact them and we don't know them. So values is the foundation. And I look at self-development like a big tree. So you gotta get your roots right. And you gotta have practical tools on how to strengthen the roots. Barbara Wittmann (21:22.724) And then the trunk starts going into what is your attitude. And the attitude is something that everyone would tell you. You just got to change your attitude. Well, that's cute, right? So what is it? I mean, seriously, I know there's like a lot of these phrases out there, but I was always like, so how do I do that? Attitude is a choice. It's like a light switch. It's on or it's off. But attitude is fed by limiting beliefs. Barbara Wittmann (22:02.405) limiting beliefs, my thoughts, my habits. They are all, they are one big lump sum that feeds into each other, right? So to give you an example, so let's say you're in a meeting, you're presenting, and the boss that's super important to you, he gets up and leaves as you're making your big point. So what is the natural cycle that fires on? It is, well, I'm making, right, I'm making, Utkarsh Narang (22:39.533) I'm making no sense. This is not working. My boss hates me. I'm going to get fired. Barbara Wittmann (22:44.048) Yep. Exactly. So that's a thought that is linked to a limiting belief. And that limiting belief may be, I don't know my stuff. Everyone else is better than me. And that triggers a reaction. Barbara Wittmann (23:07.58) So if we understand how things are linked, we can debunk them. And we can pause and say, well, wait. And the pause may be that you step out too for a minute, take a breath, step back in. So it is really understanding how things are linked. What is the systemic trigger? And that's how we can be more aware, observe, and we can start changing things. Barbara Wittmann (23:50.47) So I basically in my programs I show how to do these things. It's a step by step thing and obviously it's not something that you are doing once and then it's going to happen. It is an ongoing practice and boy I'm telling you it's you know same for me. I am still you know doing this thing all the time. So once you have that figured out, that's the trunk, then you can go into how do I make my tree stretch its branches. So we look at what is my superpower. And superpower is something that you figure out once you start connecting the dots of events in your life that have been amazing or maybe sad. You know, it's not all happy events that shape us. and you connect those to your values. You can see very clearly what are things that keep repeating itself. And maybe you are the translator in your life. Or, you know, maybe you are the doer, the explorer. Barbara Wittmann (25:14.723) And from there we work on the self-image. So how do we improve seeing ourselves? So we match what other people see us to how you see yourself. And it is important to keep that order because you have to build that tree from the roots up. So what I have been missing is all the trainings, know, a hundred trainings and yet another one. could not make sense of, I started piecing my own toolbox together and that's what I offer to leaders that are aspiring and want to grow. And that's how you can really get out of your own way. Literally. So what happens when you do that is you start turning from victim into creator. Barbara Wittmann (26:14.789) So people that go through the program, they're in mid-management for the most part. And they would say, well, I can't do anything because the strategy of the company and my boss and... But then once they become empowered and really see what their own limitations are, they take back locus of control and they go into a proactive mode. Utkarsh Narang (26:30.509) you Barbara Wittmann (26:44.311) and most of the people that go through the program, it's over 70%, get promoted within a year. Utkarsh Narang (26:52.493) That's powerful. I love the idea of the values and I'm going to have a question on the values for you. But values is where you start. That's the foundation. I think I was lucky then when I'm hearing you say because the coaching school where I went to the first five minutes of the session, I remember the person who was teaching us, he said, you will become as good as a coach as you become a human being. And if you can do the work on yourself, then you don't need to learn how to coach. That will happen automatically. And so we spend the next 160 hours just wanting to become better as human beings. And this was about six years ago. And 2018 is the first time I defined my values. They served me beautifully for seven years, till about 2025, which is when I let go of one and replaced one. So my five values, and then I'm going to ask you as Barbara. are discipline, presence, freedom, love and growth. What are yours? Barbara Wittmann (27:59.282) Well, I hone it down to three because they are easier to manage, you know. So obviously freedom is one. Authenticity and honesty. Utkarsh Narang (28:03.159) Mm-hmm. Utkarsh Narang (28:06.807) Mm-hmm. Hmm. Beautiful. Beautiful. I love this work. I think, and I was talking to someone just last week that if you figure out your values and if you can learn and train and unlearn and relearn to live by those values, every decision that you make, that foundation, that those roots that you're talking about, if the roots of a plant are healthy, if roots of a tree are healthy, it will sustain everything and it will be resilient and will be antifragile and all of that. So you work on the values, then love the idea of the trunk being the attitude and the choices and the choices are being driven by how you're feeling, how you're thinking, the limiting beliefs and all of that and you take actions based on those perceptions and then once you've figured that piece out that's when your branches start to grow out and branches are the superpower which again you have to do a lot of inner work to figure those out as well. Love this, this is such a great model. Barbara Wittmann (29:08.177) So a lot of what we teach, we always bridge to what does that mean for your work, right? Because it's what's within, so without, right? Same model. So if you are starting to work on the limiting beliefs, you will notice that your entire company and industry has limiting beliefs. Also the coaching industry has limiting beliefs, right? All of that. And that to me is a Utkarsh Narang (29:19.553) Mm. Mm. Utkarsh Narang (29:29.805) you Barbara Wittmann (29:38.957) a huge shift, right? Because we need to start thinking in bigger realms. If we are feeding AI with our limitations, it will learn to think as me. If I am asking questions as an organization that's struggling and I question with my limitation, it can only give me so much back. Utkarsh Narang (29:45.965) Mm. Barbara Wittmann (30:08.891) So the question is how do we train our AI models if we don't clean up ourselves? Utkarsh Narang (30:18.221) That's deep. That's really fascinating because ultimately AI will produce the results based on the prompt that we give and the prompts will be driven by who we are and so on down unless we work on who we are, we're not going to get the answer that we aspire to or we can, which is what the highest potential is, is what I'm understanding. Barbara Wittmann (30:39.28) Yeah, yeah. So if we really want to play well and really leverage and co-create with AI, we need to be our best self. Utkarsh Narang (30:44.929) Mm. Mm. Mm. Barbara Wittmann (30:50.358) and we need to understand what our superpower is so we can stand in our strengths and we can see the machine as an equal partner. Utkarsh Narang (31:06.221) How have you seen this and I love to like, and I'm like, how do you integrate this? There's this, as the big buzzword, right? Everyone's talking about it, everyone's wanting to understand it, everyone's trying to understand it. Some are ahead of the journey, are lagging, and some are like ignorant as well. So all three buckets I would say. How are you seeing AI play a role in helping us become better humans? And I'm talking about the constructive side of AI right now, which I think is what I want to speak about. Barbara Wittmann (31:39.054) there, and I see a very big constructive side and of course there's always the dark side too, but you know, we have to believe in the best of humanity. I would like to give you an analogy. And I've done a lot of digging into older cultures because I think to go forward sustainably we need to look back. And I moved to Colorado 10 years ago and I'm still fascinated by the power of the land and the power of the people that have walked this land before. I am humbled every time I step outside of my front door. And recently I went to a forest, a huge pine forest about an hour from where I live. And I was taking a hike there and I came upon a tree that was bent, intentionally bent by humans, The 90, the two times 90 degree angle. And I got so excited because I had read about these things but I've never seen it for sure. So that was the native people's way of wayfinding. To literally find your way through the forest. Barbara Wittmann (33:10.736) So if we look at technology, digital growth, AI agents as a forest, it's super messy. And we're missing the way markers. And we're missing the people who know how to build them. And keep in mind that those way markers were not signage. They were growing with the environment. Barbara Wittmann (33:43.45) So that to me is. is the biggest analogy because we need to learn how to navigate. On another layer, the trees were called people. They were the tree people, right? Because back then they had a deep sense of coexistence. It's like, hey, me, human, I'm good at this. Tree, you know, another human, really good at this. So I think we are lagging two very simple things next to upgrading ourselves is orientation and the sense to coexist. And let's be honest, we have a hard time coexisting with our fellow humans, you know, let alone bringing a machine into the equation. Utkarsh Narang (34:32.183) Hmm. Barbara Wittmann (34:40.14) And we have to start thinking about our surrounding again as an ecosystem where everything is interconnected, where we are just a part of it. And if we are pulling on one end, it's going to do something on the other. So we need to desperately step out of the little boxes we have created for ourselves, not intentionally, because some are just given. You are a coach, you ought to do this and this and this. and don't even touch the other, right? So all these boundaries are starting to blend. Utkarsh Narang (35:12.045) Hmm. Barbara Wittmann (35:19.086) But we need to be in a place where we give ourselves permission to look beyond the boundaries, limiting belief, right? Utkarsh Narang (35:28.961) Yeah, we need to give ourselves permission. And who's stopping us? Barbara Wittmann (35:34.987) it's all the stuff going on here, right? Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (35:37.205) Absolutely. Right answer. Yeah. Did you have some? So you were saying? Barbara Wittmann (35:43.404) I don't need other people that hold me back. I I can do that all on my own, you know? It's like, hey. Utkarsh Narang (35:47.542) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So good. We're so good at that. At holding us back. Yeah. Yeah. It's fascinating. you know, like part of me is also wanting to just touch upon that AI is really good at a lot of things and there's no denying it. But do you have like any Barbara Wittmann (35:54.788) Yeah. Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (36:12.333) tips and tricks, anything that you feel a listener can start to do with AI right now and like keep it like really simple to become a better version of who they are. Barbara Wittmann (36:25.478) there's a couple of things. They are fun. But I think we need to backtrack a little bit and we need to start by asking better questions. So I think that's an innately human capability that we need to hone again, that we need to be curious, we need to inquire. We need to understand what is the problem we want to solve before we go the next step. And that's not even attached to any machine, that's also attached to us humans, because we have that way of, I've done this before, I know, I know, I know, you know, but you don't even understand the full context. So I would encourage before you even turn to any AI tool to really think about it, what is the problem I want to tackle? And what is the assumptions I have? Because assumptions is the shitty little sister of a limiting belief, you know? Utkarsh Narang (37:26.882) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (37:39.639) Yeah, so it's like I'm just curious about that term. And so many times like we are operating from assumptions and we go through the spiral of imagining what can be and should be and could be and would be because of what we're assuming in our head. And none of it is true. Barbara Wittmann (38:00.674) Exactly, but if you start feeding the AI machine what is tumbling around in your head, you're feeding it assumptions, right? And you're feeding it half-cooked questions. So I would encourage everyone to start with a piece of paper. Let's do it very old fashioned or with some sticky notes and just to... What really is the noise? You know? So if you turn to AI, feed it more of a holistic picture. Utkarsh Narang (38:07.853) Yeah. Barbara Wittmann (38:30.579) and tell it, this is where I'm coming from. This is my challenge, you know. So really give it more context so it can actually enact. And honestly, you know, we would be much better off also doing that with our fellow humans. And hey, I'm guilty as well, you know, because when I delegate a task, there's just so much institutional knowledge that I assume is there. Utkarsh Narang (38:39.885) Mm. Barbara Wittmann (39:01.103) And it's a very simple, hey take that over and I assume everything is clear. So the AI doesn't have your institutional knowledge, so you need to give it context. Utkarsh Narang (39:18.199) Yeah, it makes it so important. Barbara Wittmann (39:20.449) And doing that, by the way, is also better for the planet because we use less power, you know? Utkarsh Narang (39:25.645) Yeah, that's resources. Barbara Wittmann (39:29.999) So that's one thing, you you need to give it more of a framework, you know. So who are you, what do you aspire, what's your values, you know, the more information you feed it, the better it can work for you. And it's something totally amazing because it is not biased. You know if you ask your sister or your cousin or something they are like, ooh, but you've you've tried that before right? You got really hurt doing that. no, no, you know, don't do it. Or they may not say it like that, but the undertone is there. So ask better questions. That's that's the one thing. And Utkarsh Narang (40:08.813) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (40:23.068) Mm-hmm. Barbara Wittmann (40:28.003) So we need to slow down as humans to really speed up with AI. Utkarsh Narang (40:36.993) I'm taking a second to really let that sink because we need to slow down as human beings to be better with AI. Utkarsh Narang (40:50.219) I was speaking. It's such a paradox. was speaking at a mental health event yesterday in Melbourne and the analogy that analogy that came to me while speaking to them was like, in a formula one race, people get pit stops, right? We all need pit stops. We don't take enough bits off. We don't slow down. We're like, we all are, are, are guilty of it. And you and I were talking just before we started recording the podcast, how our weeks were busy. Barbara Wittmann (40:50.383) It's a little paradox, you know? Barbara Wittmann (41:08.924) yeah. Utkarsh Narang (41:20.237) over the last couple of weeks and that's okay but find a pit stop. Barbara Wittmann (41:25.325) Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And the other thing that we can never forget is that machines optimize. But humans must choose what's worth optimizing. Barbara Wittmann (41:46.169) So you need to do some homework beforehand, right? Utkarsh Narang (41:53.355) Yeah, that's amazing. Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (41:57.73) I want us to speak about the digital wisdom project because as when we were talking, think to have this conversation on the podcast, I think you called it your legacy project, if I remember correctly. Tell us about it. Like what is the digital wisdom project? Barbara Wittmann (42:16.378) So, yes, it is my legacy project where I am turning the equation around and I basically package everything up what I learned as a coach, as a consultant in 25 years, mostly putting out fires and how I turn it around to empower people. You know, how can I create something that reverberates even long after I'm gone? You know, at some point I was kind of stopping for a minute and I mean my big thing for the longest time was I came in to rescue broken projects or strategies and you know, really high stress, high adrenaline. I loved it at first because I was the hero, right? I was like, yay, you know? But then it gets really old because Then the thing ends and you have to go back home and it's like, you know, all right. So now I've had like 80 hour weeks and so on. So I'm like, so what, when I dropped dead tomorrow, what would be on my tombstone? She worked a lot, you know, it's like, no. So I'm like, Hey, you know, I got to turn the equation around. How do I empower the people that are coming next? How do I empower them to be better with what's coming in? technology because that honestly is my biggest fear that we are making rash decisions. mean, digitization is a given, AI is a given. It will change our world in ways that we cannot imagine right now. But we have to train up as humans to be able to think ahead and to look at a bigger picture, you know, what are the unattended consequences possibly? And we need to be also in a state of mind where we say, what does that mean for the next generation? Barbara Wittmann (44:26.138) And, you know, to just bring it to more of a micro level, what does that mean to my fellow workers or to our customers? You know, we need to ask bigger questions because what we are designing here is touching humans in ways that may change their lives. So we cannot look at IT simply as data and bits and bytes. We need to have humans in the equation that have the ability to tell a team, hey, let's wait a minute, you know, why don't we hash this out and, you know, make the problem bigger and see what it does. Utkarsh Narang (45:12.119) Yeah, this was, I think you spoke about what will be on my tombstone. I've thought about that question a lot. Do you have a message that will go on your tombstone? And if not, that's OK. It just comes to me. So I thought I'd ask. Barbara Wittmann (45:28.046) Don't, don't park here. I don't know. No, I say. Barbara Wittmann (45:38.976) No, I think what I would like for it to say is inspired others. I think that is the biggest compliment. Yeah. And you know, I, I, God, you know, if I at some point have created something where I can take myself out of the equation entirely and it's still, is a breathing, organism amazing, you know. Utkarsh Narang (46:09.089) Yeah, that'll be so cool. like, it'll evolve on its own and then everyone whose life gets touched by it will also evolve, will also get to upgrade their inner software. Yeah, that's fascinating. Yeah, when I think of this question, like I think I want the tombstone to stand and in our religion, they don't put tombstones, they burn the body in Hinduism. But if they were, then I'd love for it to read. Barbara Wittmann (46:22.124) Yeah, yeah, exactly. Utkarsh Narang (46:38.967) that he lived. I think, yeah, just this human experience, just this experience of talking to you is igniting so many neurons, Barbara, that it's such a joy to have this conversation. What does the future look like? Where is your attention right now? And what does the future look like for not just Barbara, but for how the world is evolving? Barbara Wittmann (47:04.782) You know, I've been thinking about that quite a bit because I'm preparing a talk at the Global Peter Drucker Forum in Vienna that I'm going to. And their big theme is the next era of leadership and why it is pressing to enact on that now. And I'm giving a talk about ecosystems together with others. And Utkarsh Narang (47:18.413) Mm. Barbara Wittmann (47:34.336) I think we need to, yes, look at a bigger scale of what is it going to be, but we also need to be very aware what is my role in it. And we need to come to the conclusion that one single person that has changed within can inspire, can create ripples. And that to me is an intention we need to hold, especially as the world is just going crazy. and things are just so unprecedented. If I'm driven by the outer world, it's not good for my health. So I need to trust that I can create ripples in my family, in my community, in the company. And if I inspire enough people, I can create a tipping point. Utkarsh Narang (48:31.693) I'm just visualizing it because I think such a... we always put the... put the onus, put the blame, put everything on someone else to come and save us, but no one's coming to save us. The work is in us. We got to do the work. We got to keep sending these ripples out. But if I can get better today than who I was yesterday and if I can be on that journey very patient, intentional, aware... Barbara Wittmann (48:43.607) No. Utkarsh Narang (49:00.205) It's a journey worth taking. Barbara Wittmann (49:02.572) Yeah, yeah. And if I am clear what's important to me, you know, I can also stand up for things that I believe in or I don't believe in and not getting pushed around by, you know, a majority of opinion. We need to learn to think for ourselves again and to really see what's important for us, what's important for us to be happy. Utkarsh Narang (49:06.509) 100%. Barbara Wittmann (49:31.566) to be free. Yeah, before we turn to machines again. and I mean, the future is, is amazing. You know, we can use technology in so many amazing ways where we make our resources used better. where, you know, we can just create a world that is so much happier, you know, just thinking about agriculture, water usage, fertilization so much possible. Utkarsh Narang (49:36.961) Yeah. Barbara Wittmann (50:06.318) So I don't see it as a paradox. I think we can co-create together in a very powerful way. But we need to start with us. Utkarsh Narang (50:16.735) Everything we need to start with everything you're saying is igniting so many mirror neurons because I deeply resonate with all that you're saying. I think power lies in the collective and the work starts itself. If we can create and upgrade our own operating systems, then we will serve ourselves better, but also our teams, organizations, the world, the community, state, everything. And as we look into the future, Barbara. And as we come to the closure of our conversation, the final question that we come to is that 80 year old self, the Barbara of the future. If that Barbara were to come to you right now and give you one piece of advice that that's how you should live the rest of your years, what would that be? Barbara Wittmann (51:04.938) Embrace the Village. I really hated my village when I grew up because it was so confining, so small, and I could do nothing but run from it as fast as I could. And now, I think the concept was pretty healthy. It's about finding your people, find people of, you know, different ages. different perspectives that you can get together because we cannot do it alone. Yes, we can change us, but we also need to find ways on how we are supporting each other because the decisions I make are affecting many. So when I go home today to the small village, I really love what I see. And of course there's quirky characters there, right? You love some more than others and all of that. But they grow things in the garden. They exchange vegetable. They have a bread baking oven. If one slaughters an animal, you know, it is shared. So there is a sense of community, of co-creation. And yet everyone has their own lives, of course. But you know, Utkarsh Narang (52:06.637) Yeah, correct. Barbara Wittmann (52:32.001) you can count on your neighbor. And I think that would be my advice, that being in a village is not bad, and we need to find a village. Utkarsh Narang (52:48.789) so powerful. That is so powerful. To everyone who's listening, this is your moment to remember and to tell yourself we cannot do it all alone. We need to embrace the village. Ask yourself what will be on your tombstone. So whatever life you're living right now, maybe there's more to it. Maybe something needs to shift, the operating system. Just ask yourself what will be on my tombstone. And if you're someone who's like me, a Hindu and you'll be burned. still ask this question because it's a thought provoking question. It's not a real literal meaning is that we're putting into it. Ask yourself what or whose permission do you need to evolve to be your best self? Work on your tree. We've very vividly pictured the tree. I've actually drawn it on my notes where the roots are the values, the trunk is the choices and the attitude that you carry. And that is completely your choice. Your mom, your dad, your neighbor, your spouse, your manager, your whoever you are blaming your choice on, grow up. They're not making the choice for you. You're the one who's making the choice. And remember, you need to dig very deep in upgrading this collective intelligence. It'll take some time, but it's a journey worth taking. And we get to that eight year old little girl who said. It's okay to be difficult. It's okay to be different. It's okay to be loud. It's okay to be dreaming big. So go on that journey. Thank you, Barbara. That was such an engaging, insightful, and a philosopher-like conversation. Barbara Wittmann (54:26.669) I loved our conversation and for those who got curious, the next cohort is starting in the course of November. So hey, you want to work on your tree, make yourself stronger, reach out. Utkarsh Narang (54:42.925) Amazing. We'll put all the links in the show notes so that you can find Barbara and have a conversation with her. And if you've spent about 60 minutes of your life listening through this podcast, that means that this was really helpful for you. Share with someone who might need this. And if you're on YouTube, subscribe to the channel, leave a comment, let us know you're here because on some days, even building a podcast gets a very lonely journey. And so it'll be good for us to know that you're here and you're listening. Thank you, Barbara, for your presence. Truly appreciate it. Barbara Wittmann (55:14.359) Thank you very much.