Utkarsh Narang (00:01.784) My guest today believes that order is not just about perfection, but it's about purpose. She's a vision accelerator. She helps people pursue entrepreneurship and she helps people clear the clutter, clutter not in their physical space, not just in their mental space, but also in spiritual space. Because we'll talk about this. We are here to partner with something that's greater than all of us. And when we get to partner with the creator, it brings a different kind of energy. Barbara. Welcome to the IgnitedNeurons podcast. Barbara Hemphill (00:34.779) thank you so much for having me. I just love talking about this and our conversations before were like so magnetic. So I'm really looking forward to it. Utkarsh Narang (00:44.364) And I want to tell the listeners that Barbara would have typically been at her office or would have been at her home recording this. But today we have the pleasure of having Barbara at her church, which to me is a really special moment, Barbara. Barbara Hemphill (00:50.098) You Barbara Hemphill (00:57.746) Well, it's a good place to be. Utkarsh Narang (01:00.746) I absolutely agree with that. So as we're in this, in this beautiful space, we typically start the podcast with a very deep question, which is that if the eight year old Barbara, the eight year old little girl living wherever she was that, childhood that she was having, if that Barbara wanted to come and meet you right now, what kind of conversation do you think will emerge? Barbara Hemphill (01:29.554) It's such a good question and I think that the big thing would be to just be yourself. You know, we spend our lives trying to be something that other people thought we should be or that we read about or took a course about or whatever. And especially I'm seeing in this world of AI that we have to be very cautious. because, and I just had a conversation with a woman yesterday who said she spent a lot of time working on a book. And she, it was her stuff, but she'd used AI and she trashed it all because she said it simplified it and tried to make it something that I wasn't. And AI doesn't have a heart. Barbara Hemphill (02:38.318) And I think ignitedneurons is about being in your heart space. And when you are in your heart space, as God created you, you can't be wrong. But when I was eight years old, I felt very wrong. I felt very like I wasn't good enough. And in fact, when I was 11, I tried to commit suicide because I thought that my grandfather said he heard from God and I didn't hear from God and I wanted to. And when I didn't, I just became completely in despair. And now I'm 78 years old and people say to me, why are you still working? And I said, because the message I have to to share is that as long as you are breathing, it's not too late to change your own life and to impact others. And I hear so many women especially be moaning that they're getting older. Men are lucky. When you get older, you don't have to worry so much. But women do, you know? I we just do. And so a lot of women bemoan it. And I said, you know, my years between 75 and 78 have been the best years of my life. And my license plate says hope. fool. And when people ask me why, I say because one, I'm a fool for Jesus, and two, H-O-P-E stands for help others pursue entrepreneurship, which I've been doing for 47 years, but it also stands for help others pursue eternity, which is, after all, all that really matters. Utkarsh Narang (04:33.281) There's so much and then at least twice in that few minutes that you shared, Barbara, I felt like goosebumps all over my spine because I did not know that you tried to suicide at 11, which is. And my son is 11 years old. So I'm just thinking, what would like an 11 year old be thinking for them to pursue that path or to think about something like that. So that's one. You spoke about being in the heart space, which, which sounds like a, I call it being experiencing bliss. And I think it feels really similar heart space and bliss. But in a world that wants you to be someone else, in a world that keeps telling you that you're not good enough, how do you get out of that state? Because it's a, it's a tough, it's a lifelong battle rather than being a tough battle. It's a lifelong battle, Barbara. Barbara Hemphill (05:20.71) First. Barbara Hemphill (05:35.836) Well, think it's really, I'll mention AI comes up again because I think this is very interesting. Harvard University did a study that said the top two ways that people were using AI was number one was for companionship and therapy. And number two was for organizing their life. When I read that, I about fell out of my chair because I said for 47 years I have been helping people organize their life and what I have learned is the number one way to do it is to develop companionship with your creator. Bingo! It's like, my gosh. So the answer is, I think the more time we spend with ourselves and with our creator is how we overcome that. Utkarsh Narang (06:40.257) I love how you simplified it and I deeply resonate with it. So, so we'll go down this path. We'll, we'll learn more about this because, and I was thinking about this, this morning, last couple of weeks have been that I'm doing a lot producing the podcast, the podcast reach a hundred thousand views on YouTube. So we're, succeeding on the outside, but it felt It felt that I'm not in that heart space. It felt that I'm churning things out, but I'm not feeling that I'm doing it with that same passion. And then this morning I was reflecting upon this and I was unable to find the answers for the last two weeks. So I've been in that space right now. And this morning it came to me, there's this, book, a religious book that we as in Hinduism follow, it's called the Bhagavad Gita. And in that, you've heard of it. So yeah, so that's been, yeah, that's been like the guiding light. And I realized that in the last two weeks, I'd forgotten about it. And so I went back to it. And the biggest lesson that comes from it is that, and I'm saying the gods are saying, Utkarsh, keep doing the work because there's joy in the work. Barbara Hemphill (07:34.546) Yes, course. Utkarsh Narang (07:57.526) and have a non-attachment to outcome, but do the work in ways that it's the best that you can do the work. And to me, that was like the solution that, why am I in any kind of despair? How have you seen that evolve over, with the people that you work with and over your lifespan as well? Barbara Hemphill (08:13.81) Absolutely. Barbara Hemphill (08:23.036) Well, first of all, think doing something that you have a passion for is critical. I mean, when I've trained, I've started training entrepreneurs in 1998, I've trained hundreds of them, and they've come from two different directions. One person comes and says, I have something that I'm just passionate about delivering a product or a service or whatever. And somebody else comes and says, I just want to make money. And I say, you can have a company that will make money, but you will burn out. If you don't have the passion behind, you ultimately will burn out. And the people that I trained, I've said 80 % of the time you should be doing something that you can't help doing. It's just what you do. It is who you are. 20 % of the time it's going to be messy because life is messy and this world is a messy world. If it's more than 20%, then we should have a conversation to say, how do we reinvent? And I have reinvented, I've had seven different company names since I started. Having said that, I started with the phrase clutter is postponed decisions. And I joke now because I'll say to my husband to whom I've been married 38 years, I'm giving a speech and he'll say, what are you talking about? And I'll burst out laughing and I'll say, how many years have we been married? I've been saying the same thing for 38 years. Utkarsh Narang (09:56.974) Were you not listening? Barbara Hemphill (10:00.882) And it is, I mean that's the core. But it's packaged differently, it's delivered differently, it's to a different audience. For example, I'm in a big transition now because the majority of my life has been spent with entrepreneurs. and smaller companies. And I have dabbled with some very large companies. One of my very first clients was a vice president of a large company in New York. And I've done a little bit, but not very much. And that's always been something I've wanted to do, but it just, for whatever reason, didn't happen. Well, all of a sudden in the last six months, I'm making connections with companies. executives and I think part of it is that COVID changed the world and that the tagline of the company I founded is called Productive Environment Institute and we define a productive environment as an intentional setting in which you can accomplish your work and enjoy your life. And then I always add, and enable others to do the same. Because when you're in a business, if you accomplish your work and enjoy your life, you are by definition doing the same for other people. Well, literally, at one point, I had a large contract with a company in New York. was to teach their, train their sales teams. I was traveling around. And I made the comment about our tagline being accomplish your work and enjoy your life. And he said, and I quote, I don't usually use these words, but I'm going to quote, said, I just want them to do their damn job. I don't care if they enjoy their life. There were a lot of people in leadership and management who really thought that way. But I think COVID has changed that. Barbara Hemphill (12:00.08) because there were too many people who began to realize, they were home with their families because they had to be. And it's like, wow, look at what I'm missing out on. Or they realized they didn't have to work at the office 60 hours a week, that they could do some of their work. at the office and some at home and that some liked working home better and whatever else. And now I believe that in order for companies to attract and retain good employees, they are going to have to care whether they are not only accomplishing their work and enjoying their life. But what's exciting about that is that then that means they're gonna be role models for other people. Not all companies will buy into it. So I personally am looking for the leaders of companies who say, know, I want my employees to accomplish their work and enjoy their lives. And I think we'll change the world. I mean, I literally think those, for the last two years, the word that has come up for me over and over in so many is the word remnant. that it's a small, and I'll give you an example. Yesterday, one of my colleagues ran a webinar, free webinar, and 50 people signed up, but only eight showed up. And I think that's very common. Now, some people are listening to the recording and things like that, but... Utkarsh Narang (13:30.529) Hmm. Barbara Hemphill (13:35.18) many, many places I go. I went to Texas for three days with a very renowned person and there were, it was a small group. I felt so blessed to spend three days with this person. Utkarsh Narang (13:49.888) Hmm. Barbara Hemphill (13:52.806) But there were other people who could have, and I think it's going to be the same in terms of business. It's going to be the same with podcasters. There's going to be a remnant of podcasters that are going to change the world, a remnant of small businesses that are going to change the world. We don't need to be worrying about quality or about quantity. We just need to worry about quality, which goes back to your point of the Bhagavad Gita saying, just do what you do and keep doing it. Utkarsh Narang (14:09.613) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (14:20.2) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I want to go back to that 11 year old because I really feel and and and I don't think there's a research to prove this, but maybe there is out there. I'm not fully informed. But something happens in our childhood and in our growing years that that in a way influences what we do with our life for the rest of the years. What were some of those early influences, Barbara, that that taught you that that someday you will fall upon and build upon this purposeful life for yourself. Barbara Hemphill (14:57.5) Well, you're right. mean, what happens in childhood is so impactful. mean, there's an incredible book, Your Body Keeps the Score, which talks about the things that have happened to you. And I grew up in a family that was very poor, rural farm family, worked very hard and very loving, but not very nurturing at all. Utkarsh Narang (15:06.797) Hmm. Barbara Hemphill (15:27.282) And I weren't grew up that way. My grandparents, were German, Norwegian, English, not effusive people. And in fact, as a child, I used to pretend I would try to make myself sick because that was the time that my mother would pay attention to me, was when I was sick. And it wasn't that she didn't love me. I mean, she loved me dearly and I never doubted that. But she was just too busy trying to survive. And my father was a farmer who would get up at four o'clock in the morning and often work until 10 o'clock at night. His father was abusive almost. he wasn't, so there was not any affection. I had one brother who was six years younger than I. So basically I was an only child. I spent an enormous amount of time alone. And I am a people person. So I felt terribly, terribly alone, very lonely. And then my mother, but I was a dreamer, and I would talk to my mother about doing such and such. And my mother had a phrase, be careful you're not getting too big for your britches. Utkarsh Narang (16:36.205) you Barbara Hemphill (16:49.254) And that I have spent hours in therapy working through that. And I have no, I love my parents dearly. I don't have any animosity toward them. They did absolutely the best they, and my father sold a milk cow in order to pay for my tuition for college. I mean, that's how he loved me. He got up at four and worked till 10. That's how he loved me. But he didn't hug me. And that was. My love language is quality time. And there wasn't a lot of quality time. But by the same token, so what they gave me, and I think all of us, we have to look at what we were given both pros and cons because we learned from both of them. My mother, if she had been born in my generation, probably would have been president of the United States. The woman was amazing. Utkarsh Narang (17:21.773) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (17:25.901) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (17:34.923) Yeah. Barbara Hemphill (17:44.626) She was working full time at 82 years old because she wanted to. And she worked as an assistant to the president of a bank, a small bank. The bank won tons of awards. And partly it was because of what she did and how she managed it. And she was just a man, and she directed the choir. She started lots of things. She was a real leader and just absolutely amazing. People ask me, they talk about I look so young. I said, it's my mother. My mother was, I just got her genes. I can't take credit for it. I'm thrilled, but I can't take credit for it. And my father dug terraces on our farm by hand. when no one else had heard of such a thing. And we had a milking, he milked cows and we had Holstein dairy cows and he bought a milking and feeder machine from Israel. Utkarsh Narang (18:43.447) Wow. Barbara Hemphill (18:44.01) and it fed the cows were barcodes around their neck and when they would go up to the feeding station it would tell them what the milk it would measure the milk and say what feed they needed based on their milk production this was in the 1970s in the center of the united states i have no explanation for that i mean that that i mean how that even happened we used to have Utkarsh Narang (19:00.418) Wow. Barbara Hemphill (19:10.554) my mother would arrange for the young children from school to come to the farm and she would have pencils that said the Frost Dairy Farm. My maiden name was Frost and it was the Frost Dairy Farm and she would serve them chocolate milk. So, you know, my childhood could be described as the best of times and the worst of times. And I think if you think about it, when you really hear people's stories, Utkarsh Narang (19:22.572) Right. Utkarsh Narang (19:26.158) Bye. Utkarsh Narang (19:34.636) Hmm. Barbara Hemphill (19:39.302) That's true of most people's stories. I was speaking with a woman today who's from Iran, we were talking, I had told, I met her a few months ago and I said she should write a book about her life. She's, no, nobody'd want to hear my story. I said, that is a lie. I mean, your story is incredible. And I know you've experienced this because of the people you've interviewed. mean, everybody has a story. I don't care who you are. Utkarsh Narang (19:41.314) Yeah. Barbara Hemphill (20:06.68) And everybody has a story that's the worst of times and the best of times. And how your life turns out is directly related to how you work through the worst of times, that you first notice them, you acknowledge them, you forgive the people that are involved if that's part of it, and you figure out what to do to overcome it, and you make the best of the best of times. Utkarsh Narang (20:34.936) That's such beautiful wisdom because I want us to kind of reiterate that because what you're saying is you will have the best of times and you'll have the worst of times. So everyone who's listening might have had, might be in a good space right now or facing some adversity. But what you're saying is how your life turns out is directly dependent on how you handle yourself and, and those worst times, how you become aware of them and work through them. Barbara Hemphill (21:00.466) Yeah. So, if you go back to what you said at the beginning, we're not even talking about, we're not talking about physical organization, what we're talking about is mental organization, really. So, the most, so I said my business is based on clutter is postponed decisions. Okay, I learned that originally from clothes closets. Clothes closets were filled up because the client hadn't decided whether they were gonna lose 10 pounds to get into the favorite pair of pants again. Utkarsh Narang (21:11.308) Yeah. Yeah. Barbara Hemphill (21:29.802) or what to do with the candlesticks they got from Aunt Sally and they loved Aunt Sally but the candlesticks weren't really their style but if she came for Thanksgiving dinner you'd want to have them on the table. And then it was the same true with paper. There'd be piles of paper and it was like, I have to decide, am I going to keep this? Where am I going to keep this? How am I going to find? I don't know, I'll put it over here. And then they heard things like handle a piece of paper only once, which is the worst advice in the world and doesn't work. And then we went to email and it was like, so now we sit in front of email which still by the way, is one of the biggest productivity drains there is. And we open, close, open, close, open, close, and 45 minutes had gone by and nothing has happened because we haven't decided anything. Utkarsh Narang (22:10.147) Yeah. Barbara Hemphill (22:11.024) And so then you have to decide it, but then it's not enough to decide it. As my business partner pointed out about 15 years ago, she said, Barbara, it's not enough to decide it. You have to have a way to implement the decision, like bingo. And so then that led us into systems. And we use the acronym of system of saving you space, time, energy, and money. Every time you have to do something repeatedly. Okay, so then that, well then that led me into the emotional part because I began to see that when I had clients who just agonized over letting go of things, I mean it was really painful and I began to realize that if I ask enough questions, I would always discover that they had had a severe emotional loss in their life. I was autographing my first book, Tamey the Paper Tiger, at Barnes & Noble in New York City in early 1990s. And I made that comment, and a young man in his probably mid-20s came up. He said, my studio apartment here in New York is so full of stuff, mostly paper, that I haven't had anybody in it for months. And he said, I come home from work at night and I say, okay, tonight's the night I'm gonna clean it up. And he said, I start sorting on my bed because it's the only flat surface. And he said, I pick up the papers and he said, I become physically paralyzed. And he said, there are nights when I literally shove the papers aside and crawl into bed next to my papers. And then he looked at me and he said, my mother died when I was six. Are you telling me I have to deal with the grief of losing my mother before I can manage my papers? I said, well, I'm not a mental health professional, so I can't answer that. But I can tell you from my experience that if you find someone you trust, most likely not a family member, someone who can help you decide what you need and what you want to keep, you will solve your paper problem. Barbara Hemphill (24:23.314) And based on my experience, it will impact everything else as well. Well, I was speaking to a group of 700 executive women at a university and I told that story. A woman walked up with tears streaming down her face and she said, you just saved my marriage. I said, wow, that's pretty dramatic. Do you mind explaining? She said, I came here with the intention of telling my husband to whom I've been married 13 years that I was leaving because she said he keeps everything and I have allergies and so I can't keep the dust away. And then she looked at me and she said, but I never realized until I heard you that it wasn't that he wouldn't let go, but that he couldn't let go. His mother died when he was seven. So I said, may I make a suggestion? She said, yes. And I said, go home and say something to the effect of, I never understood before how important all this is to you. Let's figure out how you can keep it and we can still live together. The minute, I followed up with it. She didn't become a client, but I followed up with him for about eight months. The minute she told him that giving him permission, It changed the dynamics and that's what always happens. The more you tell someone to let go, the more they're going to hang on because they don't feel heard. And in fact, isn't that the bottom line issue is we all want to feel heard. So that moved me into emotional clutter. And then the final step was, I mentioned to you that my grandfather had said that he heard from God. He used to say, God told me this, God told me that. Utkarsh Narang (25:55.661) Yeah. Barbara Hemphill (26:11.236) And our church would have revival meetings and I would go and I would pray to God, you know, speak to me like you do to Granddad and he never did and that was what got me so discouraged. Well, I recall and I didn't recall this till after he was gone so I couldn't confirm it but I recall him saying that if you didn't hear from God it was because you had skeletons in your closet. And it wasn't until 20 years after I started my business I thought, isn't it ironic? I started a business cleaning closets. I never made that connection before. And when I first started working, I never mentioned the name of Jesus because I didn't want to offend anybody. My grandfather was so offensive. Utkarsh Narang (26:58.798) you Barbara Hemphill (27:01.13) And I had lots of clients who were not Christians, you know, who were many, many other religions. And the last thing in the world I wanted to be was offensive. And so I didn't say anything. But I would sit in my car and pray that my client would feel the love of Jesus whether I ever mentioned his name. And for years, I didn't mention his name. Then recently, as I've gotten older, I thought, you know, one of the things that we should be able to do is to say who we are Utkarsh Narang (27:11.692) Yeah. Barbara Hemphill (27:30.994) in spite of what other people think. I'm not saying you need to believe that. I'm just saying that's what I believe. And I believe we should all be able to say what we believe in safety. I believe that. Utkarsh Narang (27:35.138) Yeah. Barbara Hemphill (27:45.658) The ultimate spiritual decision is connecting with your maker. Whatever your power is, is where you get it. And the more time you spend with yourself and that entity, the more successful you will be. Utkarsh Narang (28:05.55) After every sharing, need a couple of seconds to really let that sink in because this is, this is, this is, this is very deep. This is not just about surface level clutter. This is not just about papers. This is not even just about losing a parent at a young age and feeling that is still unresolved when you have turned 35 or 40 or whatever that looks like. This is deeply, deeply spiritual. Barbara Hemphill (28:09.606) You Utkarsh Narang (28:35.47) I'm hearing you say this again and again, Barbara. So system, I love the acronym, saving you space, time, energy and money. And it seems everything's on the outer, but then you're immediately giving me a parallel track, is that it is deeply spiritual. So how does one create a system? Barbara Hemphill (28:42.78) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (28:57.132) that is almost like serving the soul and not just the surface. Barbara Hemphill (29:04.336) you start with vision. Barbara Hemphill (29:10.16) The Bible says without a vision, the people perish. I don't know if there's an equivalent in the Bhagavad Gita or not, but that's, I mean, as entrepreneurs, that's where we all start with a vision. We have a vision of something, right? And when your vision is part of your heart, like I go back to the beginning saying, if the vision was there to make money, you won't ultimately be successful long-term. But if the vision has to do with who you were created to be and what's in your heart, then it will be successful. so one of the things early on, and everything that I teach started from paper, because paper is the most difficult thing to organize. I mean, when I started in houses, We could do the garage. I'll remember I was working with an astrophysicist in his garage and we were cleaning out the boxes of paper and he was laughing and he looked at me he said, if anybody ever told me I'd have been laughing cleaning out the garage. Well, my mother used to say many hands make light work and you know that's part of it. But I began immediately teaching with paper. There's only three decisions you can make about a piece of paper. File, or toss. And I used to say, you can clear the fat from your desk by doing file, act or toss. We've just recently in the last six months, changed it around to A-R-T to stand for art because we have a new book coming out called Soar to Success. the art of organizing information because it is an art. It's not, we don't teach this is what you should do. We ask you, what will you do? Well, if you think about the paper, the reason paper is so difficult, it's what it represents. Your hopes, your dreams, your fears, your expectations. That's when you have to deal with all those emotions. Those papers capture all those emotions and that's what makes them so hard. Barbara Hemphill (31:25.67) But here's the exciting part. As we begin to deal with information coming at us in all different ways now. Now we get text messages and WhatsApp messages and Slack messages and all of that. we use the term SOAR. SOAR to success. And SOAR stands for Systemize, which means systemize all the ways information is coming at you. And then organize it. Utkarsh Narang (31:25.774) Hmm. Barbara Hemphill (31:54.934) into action and reference. That's the sim... it's where I started with paper, but that simplicity applies everywhere. Everything that comes into your brain, your body, your kitchen, is either action or reference, meaning it's either something you need to do or delegate or whatever, but there's some action that needs to happen. Or it's just something you want to keep, whether it's memorabilia or you need it for... When you bring this organizing down to that simplicity, because people, it seems so overwhelming. And so what we're always doing is, okay, let's get down to the basics. So clutters postpone decisions. Utkarsh Narang (32:28.43) Hmm. Barbara Hemphill (32:49.116) You've got only two, you you've only got two choices. And then you're asking things like, we call it the art of waste basket tree. And that is saying things like, does this help me accomplish my work or enjoy my life? So that can apply to a piece of paper or an email or a gadget in the kitchen or a tool in the garage or whatever. It can even apply to something you eat. Utkarsh Narang (33:06.988) Hmm. Yeah. Barbara Hemphill (33:19.676) you know, is what I'm eating, is it serving my vision, my purpose? So that's how you develop the system to match your heart. Utkarsh Narang (33:33.955) As I'm listening to you, what I'm thinking is, so I moved countries very recently, like four years is recent to me. And I remember when we were clearing out our home in Delhi, India to move to Melbourne, Australia, as we were digging through everything that had to be cleaned up, there were so many things that I had kept with myself. And like there was a big box that came out, which was all my memories of my school friends, some of the pictures, some of the greeting cards that they would have given and all of that. And as I was letting go of it, part of me was wanting to hold on to all of that. And then part of me was like, Utkarsh, these memories, they're going to stay with you for till you're alive and then they'll go away. Barbara Hemphill (34:10.055) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (34:26.476) what purpose would it serve you to retain them? And it was really hard at the beginning where I tore the first card, like I don't want to leave it somewhere, right? So I tore it or shredded it, shredded the paper. But then as I was doing it, it became easier and easier. But for someone who's not doing it, not, changing countries, not being compelled to do it. It seems really emotionally that you're emotionally detaching with someone like you're letting go of that person. You're letting go of that memory. How does one overcome that through all that you're speaking? Barbara Hemphill (35:00.678) Well, it's interesting that you brought that up because that is the most difficult thing to organize hands down for everybody. Everybody waits to do that last because it is the hardest. I just recently went through 40 years. I had a file cabinet in my attic, which I had a sign on the side of it for my kids that said, when I die, this can be dumped. I mean, so I was giving them permission to let go, which I've always said to people who have children, please give your children permission to do whatever they want with your stuff because I cannot tell you the hours I have spent with people grieving over the loss of someone and also matter than heck that they left such a mess. And so I always say, tell your children that I'm doing the best I can. I know I've still left a mess. Whatever you do is fine. It is the best gift you will ever give your children. So I had this sign on the side of the file cabinet literally said, hey kids, when I die, you can trash this. That was what it is. Well, then I'm not even sure what triggered me, but I thought, I think I want to go through it. Utkarsh Narang (36:16.014) Hmm. Barbara Hemphill (36:25.522) And so I started to do it by myself. I couldn't do it. I just, it was so painful. So I asked a friend, I said, I know this is gonna sound very strange, but she was somebody who wanted to earn some extra money anyway. And so I said, I'm going to pay you to sit with me while I go through this. I said, I know this is the strangest job you're ever gonna have, but that's what I want. And so she came. Well, it turned out to be the most joyous experience because there isn't anybody in my family who cares about all that stuff and the business doesn't have to go back through my memorabilia. Well, two things happened. One was I could tell her the stories, which made it a happy experience and also kind of a way to close, know, put closure on it. But then I realized, my gosh, she can videotape me. So she did some quick little videos and I would pull out something and I would tell the story about when this happened and we turned them into social media things and it was so much fun. So one of the things that I tell and I actually learned this from a friend when my mother died we had gone through all of her stuff except her jewelry and it wasn't expensive jewelry but she had worked at a jewelry store so it was nice jewelry. And I had said to a friend, I need to go through my mother's jewelry. And she said, do you want me to come? I said, no, I don't want to be a bother. That's one of my things. I don't want to be a bother. And then I thought about it. thought, gosh, it would be really nice. So I called her and I said, Rosalie, would you come? Well, she sat with me and we had a good time. So that was where that seed was planted. So I tell other people, when you're going through the tough stuff, invite somebody to help you. It'll be a whole lot easier because it'll help you process that emotion. Utkarsh Narang (38:21.848) Hmm. Barbara Hemphill (38:22.306) And I just think that's really critical to help do it. The other thing is I had a client one time, and there have been several occasions where I had a leader of a company hire me to work with an employee. And there was one particular time where there was a bank president. His assistant had been there 23 years. She was a fabulous assistant, did many things very, very well. But she was what we would call a hoarder. And she had been in the back office and it didn't really make any difference. Well, they were building a new building and her office was gonna be out in the front and so needed to be cleaned up. And so he told her, this has to be done and I'm hiring Barbara Hemphill to come. She was so terrified, she offered to resign. And he convinced her not to, and I went in to talk to her. And interestingly enough, I mean, this is really deep. It turned out she had been raped when she was 18. And I found that out in that initial conversation, and I promised her. And then one of her bosses at one point had sent her on an errand and had somebody else clean her office while she was gone, which is the worst thing you could possibly do. So the idea of me coming in and I said, number one, I won't touch anything. I'm only gonna ask questions. And it's all your stuff. We do something called the cost factor, which says you can keep everything you want if you're willing to pay the price. The price is time, space, money, and energy. And it's not a moral decision. It's an art. Utkarsh Narang (39:58.028) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (40:05.516) Yeah. Yeah. Barbara Hemphill (40:07.834) And different people make different decisions. So our job as professionals is not to say, you don't need to keep this, but to say, if you choose to keep it, this is the cost, and is that a price you want to pay? So we did work together, and it helped because she worked through those emotions, and she was successful. But one of the things we found, to your earlier story, were pictures of her colleagues' children. Utkarsh Narang (40:34.956) Hmm. Barbara Hemphill (40:36.912) And she said, I can't throw these, you know, this feels disrespectful. That's one of the, in my book, Less Clutter, More Life, there's a list of why people have trouble getting rid of it. And one of it is, I want to be responsible and respectful. And that felt disrespectful. And so we prayed over the children. I said, let's say a prayer. We said a prayer over the children, and then we threw it away. Utkarsh Narang (41:08.236) As I'm listening to you and I'll get into like, being a listener and being the devil's advocate to all of this approach, because there would be many who would be listening to this and saying that I don't want to throw this stuff. I don't want to part ways with my, whatever, whatever those things are. Right. And the emotional attachment, the physical, the mental, the spiritual, all of that can be talked about. But as I'm thinking about this, this moment that we have, Barbara, I don't think we can promise this moment to each other again, right? Because this conversation, this thought that's emerging in my mind and then wanting to speak to you about this, this is just this, right? If we were to do this podcast again, we'll talk about something very different. And so what I think through that is that if I'm spending time on my business, if I am building some memories, if I am experiencing certain experiences, all they are is that moment. Barbara Hemphill (41:51.634) Absolutely. Utkarsh Narang (42:06.528) What then makes me want to cling to them for a long time? And this is coming from a moment, this last week, I was, talking to a, an employee and she, like we had Diwali in India. She had a great time. She was telling me about certain things, the gifts she got, and maybe they don't need those, all of those gifts, but they'll now cling to it because it's a special moment. And I'm thinking that this experience that you've created. Barbara Hemphill (42:32.817) Right. Utkarsh Narang (42:36.716) this is it, right? Then, then this should be like, you need to let go of that experience to build a new experience. But this emotional attachment, it's really hard. So I'm wanting to be a devil's advocate. Someone who's 37, listening to all of this. They have a child who's five years old. They have a room in their house that's cluttered with everything. including clothes, papers, books, files, whatever that looks like. If you were to give them like just a starting point, what's the smallest step that they can take towards becoming clutter free? Barbara Hemphill (43:17.916) Well, the first thing is what I call Hemphill's Principle. If you don't know you have it, or you can't find it, it is of no value. So you can keep everything you want. And I adopted three children from India, interestingly enough, and my son was a hoarder. I mean, he really, really was. And I would try my best. I would get containers for things, and I would put things in containers, and I would do... And it was easy to understand why he was a hoarder, because he was left on the streets of Mumbai for... So the fact that he hung onto things made sense. So I understood it emotionally, but as a mother, it's like, my, and an organizing consultant approved. And so I would him containers and say, you can keep as many vehicles as long in here and whatever. And finally at age 16, I just gave up. I went to him and I said, I have... bribed, educated, cajoled, punished, and I've done everything. I'm closing the door. If it doesn't crawl out or smell, I'm not going to do anything. And that's, so what I'm saying is you can't make anybody else do it. You really can't. But you can role model. And I remember when I married my I'm my second husband and we had five children and there were four of them that were drivers and there were always people looking for car keys. And so I hung a magnetic hook on the refrigerator and I said, if I find car keys, they will be there. Don't ask me where they are. If I know where they are. Well, as my kids got older, I noticed they did some of those same things. So to go back to your question, where do you start? First of all, the saying, Barbara Hemphill (45:15.292) Remember I said at the beginning, handle a piece of paper only once was wrong? There's another saying that gets said a lot, which is also wrong, which is a place for everything and everything in its place. That's half right. There must be a place for everything, but everything is not gonna be in this place, especially when it comes to children. It's just not gonna be. But then you put it, you do things, you can do things to make it, we make clearing clutter fun in companies. We go into companies and we do what we call productivity parties. And we have prizes and we do food and what we do is we clear the clutter together. Because it doesn't clear itself, but if we're doing it together, it's a whole lot easier. Utkarsh Narang (46:02.638) Yeah. Yeah. Barbara Hemphill (46:06.35) So you can do that with kids. mean, when my kids were young, we had a chore box. And it had all the different chores in the house and they were assigned points. Everything from three points to 10 points. And the child, based on their age, had to do as many points. And it had to be done by noon on Saturday. And if they didn't do it, they lost their TV privileges the next week. And they would monitor each other, right? Because they knew who... That system worked for about three years, which is a long time for any system to work with kids, but it accommodated their age and their flexibility because my daughter, the oldest, would do it. The chore box went out on Sunday night, and Monday she was doing the chores, and she couldn't have fun until the chores were done. My son, the hoarder, he was doing it at 10 o'clock on Saturday. Utkarsh Narang (46:36.001) that. Barbara Hemphill (47:03.186) desperately trying to get it done before noon on Sunday. But they could, that's the arch. That's where we go back to saying when people say to me, should I do? I keep saying, that's the wrong question. The question is, what will you do? So if your vision, go back to when you asked me, you know, how do you move your heart to systems? It's vision. So if the vision is strong enough, Utkarsh Narang (47:06.531) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (47:15.234) Yeah. Barbara Hemphill (47:27.078) There's always a way to get there. And that's the reason I'm still doing this after 47 years, because God did not create any two people or any two organizations the same, and every day is new and exciting. Utkarsh Narang (47:38.624) love it love it what does clutter reveal about someone's inner life Barbara Hemphill (47:46.898) think it depends. don't think, you cannot judge people. People often say, the only thing that I don't like about my job is people. are reluctant to have me around because they think I'm going to just, you just, can't tell you how many thousands of times I've heard, you just die if you saw my office. No, I wouldn't at your office. I don't care about your office. Now, if you tell me you care, I will move heaven and earth to help you. But if you don't care, I don't care. So I, I don't think that there's a correlation between the outside and the inside. I think outside disorganized, no, people may be surprised to hear I am not a naturally organized person. So I was diagnosed with ADHD in my 40s. I didn't have any idea that I did, it may, I was like, oh my gosh, this explains a lot of things. I was trained as a musician, an artist. I like to start things. I don't like to finish things. I like the big picture and I hate the details. I can make a mess with the best of them. And part of the reason that the systems we've created work so well is because they were created for people who are not naturally organized. And so when someone is struggling with clutter and disorganization, it's simply because they weren't born that way and they weren't blessed with my parents. Utkarsh Narang (49:12.28) Hmm. Barbara Hemphill (49:24.336) I mean, I grew up with, did it on a farm. If you're a farmer, your crops don't grow and the cows don't give milk if you don't do things in an orderly way. And my mother worked at the bank and managed at one point something at 12 farms that the bank was managing. And so I grew up thinking everybody grew up that way. And when I became a parent of young children and I would go to other people's houses and think, my word, they didn't have my parents. Utkarsh Narang (49:33.089) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (49:52.236) Hmm. Barbara Hemphill (49:53.04) So if you weren't born organized, you didn't have parents and unfortunately we don't teach it in school, which is a horrible mistake. We should be, but we're not. And I remember very clearly, maybe 20 years ago, I had a service that I offered called the eight hour miracle. And I would go to someone's office for eight hours and I promised three things. One, will know what to, that's back when was all paper. One, you would know what to do with every new piece of paper that came in. Two, that every paper we file, we have what we call a proprietary finding system. Everything you file, we can find in five seconds or less. And three, I'll leave you with a game plan to do whatever we haven't done, because in eight hours, we can't do 10 years worth of stuff. And I said, if I don't do that, you don't have pay me. And I did hundreds of those. And I did it for a while. We quit calling it that, by the way, because people would take the price, divide it by eight, and say it's too expensive. Utkarsh Narang (50:38.264) Hmm. Barbara Hemphill (50:51.494) because they didn't realize you're not paying for eight hours. And I said, in fact, sometimes we got done in less than eight hours. And I said, you should pay me because I just gave you two hours in time that you didn't have before. But this woman said to me, she looked at me, she said, I have been an employee 23 years. This is the first time anyone ever showed me how to organize my office. Utkarsh Narang (50:53.196) Right. Utkarsh Narang (50:59.854) Yeah. Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (51:15.822) Yeah. Yeah. You know, like I've had many podcasts conversations and this is the first time we're talking about clutter and how to clear the space, physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual. Like what it comes back to me is that A, that level of awareness is super important that something needs to shift and that could be internal or external. Then what you're saying is that there should be action. Barbara Hemphill (51:39.388) Mm-hmm. True. Utkarsh Narang (51:44.78) because without action, nothing's going to change. So if someone can start small and maybe start with one part of their house or one cupboard or one drawer, or maybe just one aspect of the cleanup, then that's a starting point and they can take it from there. Barbara Hemphill (51:47.122) That's right. Barbara Hemphill (51:58.78) Well, here's a way to start. Here's a way to start. What is one thing that has to happen in your life for you to be happy with your progress? The answer to that question is where you start. Utkarsh Narang (52:13.154) Yeah. Yeah. Barbara Hemphill (52:15.12) And you can put it at a really, I mean, and that could be something physical, right? But another question that is even deeper and more important is, if you left this earth tonight, what regret would you have? And the answer to that question is a form of clutter. And most of the time, there's something physical that relates to it. Utkarsh Narang (52:30.071) I love that question. Utkarsh Narang (52:41.998) Yeah. Yeah. This is a powerful reflection. And any day could be our last day. There's no guarantee of, there's no expiry date that we come with. It could be today or it could be 20 years from now. Barbara Hemphill (52:50.556) That's right. Barbara Hemphill (52:58.672) So that's why asking that question is critical because as long as you're making progress, it's not like you have to solve it. And so many people don't make any progress because they think they have to solve the whole thing. So the biggest question to ask yourself, what's the next action I can take on this? Utkarsh Narang (53:18.702) Yeah. Barbara Hemphill (53:21.178) And it needs to be small. And then here's even another one. And this is a great way to end the conversation because I think it's funny. I had a coach who said, you have to celebrate your successes. And most of us are not very good at that. We're in what Dan Sullivan was one of my coaches. said, we all live in the gap. but I didn't do that. I didn't do that. And so. Utkarsh Narang (53:33.454) Hmm. Barbara Hemphill (53:46.338) Everybody says celebrate your successes. Well, I'm a perfectionist and I'm not very good at that, but I had the coach saying, okay, Barbara, you got to figure it out. But the thing of it is, and this is how you do it, you make that something very small that it's easy to accomplish and then you celebrate. celebrating it can be, if you're trying to drink more water, sip another, take another sip of water. Well, I was struggling with a way to celebrate. Well, I love music. So I started saying, okay, I'm gonna do, amen, amen, amen, amen, amen. And that's how I celebrate. Utkarsh Narang (54:23.234) Simple, simple and effective. Love this. And as we get to this final question of the podcast, Barbara, you shared somewhere that you're 78, which I don't believe you. I think you look like 47 maybe, but amazing. That's it. But if two years from now, the 80 year old Barbara, and maybe it's too close, maybe we can shift it to hundred, but for the sake of the conversation. Barbara Hemphill (54:36.73) Hahaha Well, thank you. I feel that way. Utkarsh Narang (54:52.33) If that future Barbara would to come to you right now and give you one piece of advice, what would she say to you? Barbara Hemphill (55:03.024) You're just fine the way you are now. Utkarsh Narang (55:16.578) beautiful. This is such a remarkable conversation that we just had and to everyone who's listening and still with us at about 58 minutes of this conversation, you're just fine the way you are. We listened to the 80 year old Barbara. Remember the Hemphill's principle, if you don't have it or don't know it, then it must go. I love the idea of letting your kids know that if I die, this can be dumped. I think it'll save them a lot of mental, emotional and physical challenge. So make sure you remember that. Make sure that you're serving your soul and not just the surface because everything in life is much deeper than what we see it for. Create yourself systems, systems that save you space, time, energy and money. hopefully in that order but you can reverse it as you want. And finally, sit with yourself. Develop that companionship with your Creator because whoever that higher force is, you can call Him Jesus, you can call her names that Indian religions have, you can call Him Krishna, you can call Him Allah, you can call Him whatever you want to call Him. But build that companionship with your Creator because that higher force is the co-founder to your life. And if you don't have a strong relationship with that co-founder, things will go not the way you would want them to go. Utkarsh Narang (56:51.84) Any closing words, Barbara? Barbara Hemphill (56:54.09) You summarized that up. I mean, I couldn't have dictated that any better. So thank you very much for doing that. And thank you for this interview. I've loved talking about this with you. It's been an exciting conversation. And as you say, if we were to do it again, it would be totally different. But this has been a joy. Utkarsh Narang (57:09.23) Absolutely. This has been a joy as well. And maybe we'll plant the seeds for a future conversation. Who is listening to us on a podcast platform? Share it with someone who you think might need this, who is on that journey of clearing the clutter, physical, mental, emotional or spiritual. If you're on YouTube, let us know that you're here because we love your comments. We love if you were to subscribe to the channel. We're slowly growing. We're building this village and we'd love to invite you to be part of this village. This is Utkarsh and Barbara signing off.