Utkarsh Narang (00:00.796) Welcome to another episode of the Ignited Neurons podcast. This is the first time in about 18 episodes that we will today talk about money. And we'll talk about money in fascinating ways because I've heard Arjun's TEDx talk and I think I relate to a lot of beliefs and myths that I've also grown up with around money. And so if you're someone who wants to break those myths or who wants to kind of shift the way you think about money, then this will be for you. Arjun, looking forward to this conversation, man. Arj | Inaam (00:29.518) Wow, tall order, I really hope I can live up to that and deliver to it, but I'm really looking forward to it. Hello, thanks for having me, really excited and keen to dive right in and talk about all things money and anything else relevant to you, the audience, and everyone listening to the Ignited Neurons show. Utkarsh Narang (00:46.226) Beautiful, beautiful. And in the first question, we throw ourselves into the deep, Arjun, while you have your oats and chocolate milkshake. Arj | Inaam (00:52.854) Yes, this is my chocolate, oats and milk protein shake, which is replacement for lunch today because I've done a great job in managing my calendar. Utkarsh Narang (00:59.442) Perfect. Perfect. And by the way, for, we are not sponsored by any company that serves us oats, but both Arjun and I love having oats. Best, best, best meal ever. We throw ourselves into the deep by this question Arjun that if that eight year old Arjun, wherever he was growing up, if that Arjun were to come and meet you right now, what kind of a conversation will emerge between the two of you? Arj | Inaam (01:09.816) Correct. Very good. Very good, everybody. Arj | Inaam (01:23.886) Hmm. That's deep one. And I know I I've been pondering this ever since you put that in my head. So much. my God. I think primary of which to that eight year old, Arjun, I'd just be like, the world's gonna throw things at you. And the best way to prepare for them is to realize that any semblance of what life should look like or should be or is meant to look like that you've heard of from other people. is not a template or a tracing paper of what your life should look like or needs to look like. And taking that pressure off yourself on my life needs to look a certain way by a certain time, in a certain phase, in a certain country, I think is something I tell eight-year-old Arjun. I probably couldn't use all those words because I'm not sure how much of that vocabulary would go into him. But what I'd say is... focus on the things that bring him joy and never let them go. even when life tries to take them away from you because those little things are what will help get through everything else. So whether it's a sport or theatre or public speaking or just going out and about finding nice places to eat or good food to eat to do that whilst living life alongside it and not prescribing to predetermined or predisposed notions of what your life should look like defined by others because it's your Arj | Inaam (03:01.264) life. Utkarsh Narang (03:03.016) I love that there's this simplicity about what you've just said Arjun, but it's still so complex because in the world and the society that we live in and, you know, I mean, growing up in the 1980s, 90s and in India, there was always this idea, right? That other person's son is doing so well, why aren't you? Your sister is doing so well, why aren't you? And so if... Arj | Inaam (03:10.044) and Arj | Inaam (03:24.888) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (03:27.912) And it still is hard, right? And I'm very honest on the podcast Like as a 40 year old, I have friends and I turned 40 this year. So I have friends who ask like, you're in? Arj | Inaam (03:36.398) I don't look a day over 25, so... You don't look a day over 25, Utkarsh Narang (03:41.768) Oh, I appreciate that. This podcast is done, my friends. should, we should. Yeah. I'm so grateful. And I did not pay Arjun to say that it's an honest opinion. But, you know, at 40, people ask like, how are we going to celebrate the milestone birthday? I'm like, I don't want to because to me, it's another day. I want to be with my family. And that's about it. Doing the work that I do. But how do you how do you explain it to someone who's right now in their maybe late 20s, early 30s? Arj | Inaam (03:51.788) Not at all. Utkarsh Narang (04:10.288) that it's okay that you're not at a place where the world prescribed it or made it that it should be like that. How do you have that conversation man? Arj | Inaam (04:18.57) Yeah, I think Jensen Huang said this really well. For those that may not know, he's the founder and CEO of NVIDIA. He recently did a keynote address to a few students at one of the IVs. I'm not sure if it was Harvard or Yale or one of the others. And he said, you're all going into a job market. It might be tough, whatever. The one thing I wish on you is suffering. Now whilst that sounds really dark and really deep, he then unpacked it and spoke to why he wished that upon people. And I resonated with it very strongly because the kid you just mentioned, hey, this guy's son's doing this well, why don't you be like him? As horrible as what I'm about to say is going to sound, I was that kid. parents would always be like, look at Arjun, use Arjun as example. Why are you not doing what Arjun's And that, which I've only now realized, put inherent pressure on me to always be at the top of my game, no matter what I did. I was known in school as, my parents were known as Arjun's parents. They were not known as this is Mr. Agarwal or this is Mrs. Agarwal. They were known as my parents for that reason. And it was that exemplified Utkarsh Narang (05:15.421) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (05:26.664) Mmm. Arj | Inaam (05:41.226) I guess pedestal that I was unwillingly and unwontingly put on that I needed to then maintain. Now I could have lived in that bubble and I think my parents did a great job at this of training me to think and live outside of that bubble because all the work I did from a very young age I was very fortunate to have had a privileged upbringing which is why I was able to do these things and perform etc. I didn't have to worry about things that others may have to have had worried about and I recognize that privilege. But I was also always picked up and dropped outside of that bubble to go see what the real world was like. And so a lot of my time in South Africa when I grew up was dedicated towards giving back to the community. That was driven by my parents. I'm very grateful for that. But it was also driven by me wanting to do better. It never sat well with me that everyone around me didn't have access to the same things I had access to. And so that's what I dedicated my time to doing. However, life was fine. Now there was this huge shock and trigger warning for those listening where I lost my father in 2017 and the five years leading up to that, our family had undergone a complete 360, 180 revolution of being one of the most privileged and well-recognized families in the country to a family that could probably barely put food on the table. And that suffering whilst very real, also taught myself, my family, my mother, very real lessons about how the world really works. And what that enabled me to do and what, and the lens I look at it from today is I've had the ability to have lived on both ends of the wealth spectrum. And that's taught me more than having stayed, what having stayed on one end would have taught me. Now coming back to Jensen Huang, that suffering he wishes, I do not wish this suffering on anyone. those that are aware of the story or may have heard of it here or there, my father was one of South Africa's leading entrepreneurs, pharmaceuticals, did really well for himself whilst trying to make a difference investing ethically and making change, lost his entire life savings he was taken advantage of and in the hundreds of millions and five years later lost his life. So not knowing how and where to invest cost us everything. Arj | Inaam (07:57.728) As a young person, I know how to take care of mom, myself in the same position. And I knew that I just cannot let any other family go through this ever again, which is what I've been working on to bring an arm to life and where it is at today. Now, that came from that suffering. Everyone's suffering is different, but... challenging where you come from, the stance you're in and the bubble you, we all find ourselves in, becomes so important because it takes you out of your comfort zone and puts you in a place so uncomfortable, filled with so much discomfort that you have no option other than to grow, other than to move forward. The Rock said this nicely the one time, he said, when life has you up against a wall, the only way out is forward. And so all of these analogies that I'm, I'm throwing are things that when I heard I felt like especially when my father passed everyone was like it's gonna be okay you'll be fine. Words don't help especially when you're going through a lot but when you're in that rock, when you're in that suffering, when you're in that point where you feel like there is no point of return, there are two ways to look at it. Rafiki said this really well. When life gives you a lesson, you can either run from it or you can learn from it. And as a kid growing up in South Africa, of course I watched the Lion King and Simba was like my icon. And that's so true because the perspective, the mindset you look at it from, Utkarsh Narang (09:19.066) Yeah. Arj | Inaam (09:25.534) gets you through that suffering as a learning experience instead of a my god what's life doing to me. And so I think being very careful and understanding of life's gonna give you these things but don't take it as a personal attack on why is life doing this to me. Be grateful of yo life's doing this to me I'm probably gonna learn something I'm probably gonna hate it I'm probably gonna come out crying or in a worse position or not how I want to be but the experiences I'll have that shape my future will make me so much of a stronger person so that's very important. Utkarsh Narang (10:00.434) Yeah. Man, so much so much wisdom. Let me let me just summarize everything, because by the way, big fan of the Lion King and then the Rock and the people that you're bringing in. I think this this wisdom, you know, as you were saying, it seems that sometimes when you're in the middle of suffering, the words don't make sense. But I think just my recommendation is and I'd love for you to add to that, Arjun, is that whoever is listening to this right now and can take away some words that you and I have spoken and would be of value to them, they should put them around themselves because and this comes from first-hand experience. When I quit my job and started my own startup, the first year was really good and I worked with the South African Reserve Bank and this client and that client. It was like, why did you not quit your job before this? And then came 2021, which is when I hit rock bottom. And I used to keep telling my wife that Arj | Inaam (10:53.582) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (10:56.552) The only way is up. The only way is up. But it was still hard. I still remember there were days when I was like, what the hell, man, I'm not going to go. And the brain used to keep telling me, Utkarsh, you're a failure, Utkarsh, you're a failure. And I think that reframe is so hard to do, so hard to do. But what you're saying when you're when you're against the wall, then the only way is forward. Arj | Inaam (11:08.984) Yeah. Arj | Inaam (11:13.954) Yeah. Arj | Inaam (11:18.918) Literally and I think that's so important like keeping that positive reinforcement around you is important It can get a bit much sometimes sometimes you just literally need to sit on your couch and cry Or take acknowledgement of your situations punch a pillow if you have to scream if you need to into the pillow These are all things I've done by the way. So if anyone does do them, please don't be ashamed of it Because you need to let out emotions and the other thing is understanding and this was told to me a very long time ago when I was starting out my career by a mentor, was like, you need to be prepared for the rejection. And I think Jensen Huang alluded to that as well. like, it's not about succeeding all the time. It's not about being the top achiever all the time. It's about being able, I'm using a lot of analogies there. Like Rocky said, it's not about how hard you get hit. It's about how hard you get back up. And whilst these are all nice things to hear and see, when you live it, when you see it, you're like, my god, this is what they meant. This is what they spoke about. And I've been rejected, thrown out of multiple rooms. I've also been at tables that I shouldn't be at and invited to those in places where I don't fit in. But that only comes from the hundreds of, I'm sure at this point, reaching thousands in different elements of my life, rejections that then give you the ability to say, you know what, fuck it, move on, take the next thing. and being very cognizant of be prepared for the rejection. That's fine. It's life and do not try and run that rat race of the linear life. That's not that's life wasn't designed to be lived that way. It's a game. It's a journey and you don't have to We all tend to want to love the end destination. We're like we're working towards this penultimate point I took a while to understand it, I never really resonated with it, but I'm now resonating with it, which is you're not meant to fall in love with that end point, with the North Star, you're meant to fall in love with the process of getting there. You may never get there. And being okay with that gives you so much power over your own life, over your own decisions, over the people around you, and surrounding yourself with those right people is very important, because those people around you define that perspective of how you look at things. Utkarsh Narang (13:17.266) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (13:21.736) FC. Utkarsh Narang (13:35.688) Love that. And the final destination to life is actually death, right? And it might come to us any day and no one's going to fall in love with that destination. So it's the process. And I love how you say life is a game. I think it's a game worth playing and it's a game that we should play to our fullest because then if not, then what the hell are we really doing? But if we go back to that, I was going, growing up. Arj | Inaam (13:41.656) Yes, as sad as it is. Arj | Inaam (13:56.354) Right. Utkarsh Narang (14:01.914) What did money mean to you? Because you spoke about like both spectrums, right? Being like wealthy and you spoke about that pedestal where everyone's like giving Arjun's example to the world. And then also going into a phase where, where you spoke, I think that putting food on the table was hard. So what was the relationship with money as you evolved through both these phases, Arjun? Arj | Inaam (14:06.616) Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Arj | Inaam (14:16.386) Yeah. Yeah. So I think there were polar opposites in my household. So on the one hand was my father, great man, loved his watches. We're Marwari, so we're traditionally known as the Jews of India alongside our Gujarati brothers and sisters. But my father did not have those traits when he came to... Utkarsh Narang (14:34.283) huh. Arj | Inaam (14:42.274) when it came to money he would enjoy his money because he'd worked hard for it and I think that's very fair. If you've worked hard for your income, for your money, your cash, you should have the ability to enjoy it with the knowledge of knowing that you have the ability to back it up if you need to. My mother was on the opposite side of that fence. So if there was even like 10 grands, which I think in today's day and is like a dollar, she will tuck it under her pillow. And both of those were quite helpful because when times got really tough, we needed cash. There was the multiple $10 that were kept under the pillow. And when we needed some liquidity, there were say, two boxes worth of watches that could be sold immediately for some cash and we got some cash in the house to some food on the table. My relationship was quite, it started from an early age, especially at the school I went to, you know, we had this thing where every month, Every grade would have a cake and candy during break time or recess. So what that means is you set up a small business at break time. You sell candy floss or sandwiches or mini pizzas or a photo with a poster board or something. And you actually plan for it for a good couple months before you put up flyers, you price your items, you build an Excel sheet, you you, you take float, you keep floating in the box, you give people change. So we were taught these skills as part of the other subjects we learned during school. So was very early on we were like, hey, we need to save. We need to make more than we spent. Like we were taught these very simple concepts, which today are ubiquitous, but for many people aren't taught at the school level and are something they learn after school. Because during school we're focusing on getting academically astute so that we can get a degree and then get a job and then get an income for which we pay things with for. But inflation Arj | Inaam (16:43.308) means we can't really pay for all the things we want and things become more expensive but the income we earn doesn't match up to the rate at which things become expensive. These were all things that we were dealing with at very young age. So I think part of my money relationship was there. The second part was other than my family which was you know if you're going to build something you need to take a certain amount of risk. You need to invest not only your time but also your money to build things but at the same time those risks need to be calculated which was both the yin and the yang and my mother and father working together of yeah you've got to take the risk you've got to put the money but you only do it if you have the ability to back that risk two-fold or three-fold and so I guess I've taken the best of both worlds in that I was a spoiled brat to be very frankly honest with you until about grade seven or eight. It wasn't that I had a silver spoon or I would get anything I wanted. Even then, say I wanted something, and this is going to sound preposterously materialistic, but forgive the eight-year-old, 13-year-old Arj. If I wanted a new iPhone or a new pair of Ray-Ban sunglasses... It was not, hey, Papa, can I get this? Or, hey, Mom, can you get this for me? It was, cool, if that's what you want, these are some milestones you need to get certain grades. We had this thing called a white blazer in my school, which was you had to earn honors colors, like badges for distinct. you call them, practices like academics, public speaking, theatre, etc. And if I hit those, I would then have a reward. So it's always put in effort to receive a reward instead of Arj | Inaam (18:27.212) just get stuff because you're rich. Sure, I had a great lifestyle at the time, like we had a lovely home, fancy cars, whatever, people supporting in the house, but I was always made cognizant of the fact that that came at a cost. It was not just given, and that came from the fact that my parents built everything up from scratch. They never got a handout. Their parents had done stuff too, but it wasn't a blanket sort of... Utkarsh Narang (18:42.344) Hmm. Arj | Inaam (18:54.336) we come from money and so you have money and so you must spend, save, behave and act a certain way. And then there was a shift in my relationship when I saw what happened with my father, which is him blatantly being taken advantage of and losing his entire life savings whilst trying to make an investment. And I unpacked, I was quite young at the time, but I needed to unpack what had happened and at its core was a lack of financial literacy. Utkarsh Narang (19:16.712) Hmm. Arj | Inaam (19:21.28) decisions that were made in the olden days in terms of business being a handshake deal, trust, whatever that means, etc. which then lead to repercussions if you haven't discussed what happens if something goes bad, if you haven't discussed what happens if something's not on paper, what happens if there's an external market shock. This was also during the 2008 financial crisis. And so building in the appropriate safeguards, building in the appropriate support around that requires a level of literacy, which sadly wasn't taught to our parents' generation, which I had the great privilege and was very grateful to have learned in my school. And then I started thinking about it, was like, okay, well, is this only a business family thing? And started realizing it might be. Utkarsh Narang (19:58.6) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (20:02.557) Hmm. Arj | Inaam (20:09.684) and it kind of snowballed into having conversations with other people. And even at school, like we'd spend time learning about Pythagoras instead of learning about how to file our taxes. We'd get our first paycheck, we'd see the money we'd earn, but then we'd see this very large sum that would go away. And you're like, where did that go? Why did that go? I worked hard for that money. And you're like, it's actually tax you need to pay. So these were very, very simple things which I'd heard of in the household, but again, never knew how to apply in the real world. Utkarsh Narang (20:19.368) Hmm. Arj | Inaam (20:37.518) because of the position we came from. so after we'd lost everything and literally when I say put food on the table, my father was out doing sales every day door to door to put dinner on the table from having chefs cook food for us every night. So that's just kind of how it went. And that taught me the resilience factor of, know, there and even at that point he was very focused on, on his way home. If he found someone that was homeless or needed food or support, he would buy them a loaf of bread and a bottle of milk to make sure or they wouldn't go to bed hungry. And that was putting them first before us as a family. And that is the spirit of service that my entire family sort of employs, which is why we do what we do. And so seeing that taught me the resilience that even once we failed, I still remember his words, he was like, It's just money. We worked hard the first time we made it. We'll work hard again and we'll get it again. And we did sort of that sort of the route we took, but that takes a lot of emotional, mental, physical strain. And that is kind of what showed up in the end. So I think once we'd lost everything, my relationship became very focused on understanding money because I was like, what is this thing that screws everyone over? Cause I started realizing we weren't the only people that's affected. How does it actually work? Where did it come from? As a concept Utkarsh Narang (21:52.306) Hmm. Arj | Inaam (21:57.984) I personally hate money. I don't understand it because I say I don't understand it by conceptual level of why we need it. as a society, we will probably, I don't think the world is ready for that conversation yet, we'll probably get to that point at some point in the future. But I started reading about the history of money. Where did it come from? How did it start? The Barter system. Why does the banking system work the way it does? What is credit? What had happened in the 2008 financial crisis? What are investments? How should you save? How much do you save? What is your retirement? Concepts that... we leave to our parents or leave till we're older, which we should actually be employing in our lives as early as possible because it is currency. was able to meet Sam Altman when he was in Melbourne a year or two ago, had a brief conversation and I was like, yo, basically you've built this system which means everyone can be wealthy because you've given them the tool to do that. What happens when everyone's wealthy? Like how do we... Utkarsh Narang (22:34.522) Mm. Mm. Utkarsh Narang (22:39.784) Correct. Arj | Inaam (22:58.944) associate wealth, how do if everyone's on the same level playing field, he's like, look, we will still need a currency of some formal kind, whether or not it's fiat becomes the question, it might become cycles per second of compute power instead of financial or fiat paper value. And that's when I also start, this is like the types of conversations I then kept having, which I was like, all right, effectively what we're saying is we still need some form of ability to interact with each other. And so how do we make Utkarsh Narang (23:06.632) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (23:12.872) Hmm. Right. Arj | Inaam (23:28.848) people understand that money is not this arbitrary concept it's actually also a good. Money itself is worth something it has a price and it has a demand it has supply and quantity much like economics supply and demand. It has supply it has demand which determines its price but we're always taught of money as this thing you know it's in the ethos and it's fugazi like they did in World War 3 which it is in some instances but if you understand it at this depth which is what I dedicated Utkarsh Narang (23:32.392) Hmm. Arj | Inaam (23:58.8) my life to doing, you then understand, there's cash, there's money, it's worth something, it's put somewhere, it's then multiplied in these various ways, are different asset classes, it's invested, it's stored, it's provided as debt, there's interest rates, and then there's complicated things that get built on it. So then my relationship shifted to understanding the whole concept, understanding how it works and how the global economy and the world literally goes around because of money. Utkarsh Narang (23:59.752) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (24:19.208) Hmm. Hmm. Arj | Inaam (24:25.482) And then I shifted to, now that we understand how the system works, how do we get it to work for the people of the planet, which is why it was initially invented? And going back to the roots of... Utkarsh Narang (24:32.36) Hmm. Arj | Inaam (24:39.774) If we put the money in the places where it should be going, such as impact, such as supporting communities, investing in businesses that help save the planet, and directing capital towards that, that's when we start making the change. But we can't get there if the very people whose money is being invested by large corporations or fund managers don't even understand how money works. Utkarsh Narang (24:53.064) Hmm. Arj | Inaam (25:02.83) And so that's when my relationship shifted and I was like, if I'm going to do this, I need to embody it. So I need to invest myself in these things. I need to test the market. need to run, like understand how the market runs, burn my hands, learn lessons, expensive lessons if they are, understand this entire system. And so that's when I started like in my life, when I earn money, these are the rules I will follow. These are the principles I'll follow. We always look at, you know, Utkarsh Narang (25:17.554) Yeah. Arj | Inaam (25:28.728) get income, spend stuff, save stuff. was like, no, no, And this is taught by my mother, get income, put stuff away first. And now my partner as well, put stuff away first. That's what matters. And then you spend what's left over. having these women are amazing at money, but just FYI, for all those men, they're finance bros. I hate all of them, categorically, and they know that. Utkarsh Narang (25:36.424) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (25:39.816) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (25:46.62) Yeah, 100%. Arj | Inaam (25:53.61) If you need to understand money, go to an Indian woman. They haven't done a course on it. They may not have done all the research. They will teach you how money works and how you should work with it without any of that because they understand the intrinsic value that it brings to your life. Anyway, I'm going on a tangent. As that shifted, it shifted to one of this thing exists and I had a lot of it. I don't have a lot of it, which means I can't do a lot of shit, so what the fuck even is this thing? And that curiosity basically led me to say, okay, now I need to build a better relationship, I need to understand it. And before I do any of that, I need to learn about how to talk about it. Because around the world, money is a taboo topic. Utkarsh Narang (26:24.68) Mm. Utkarsh Narang (26:32.284) Hmm. Hmm. Yeah. Arj | Inaam (26:37.238) because we don't like talking about it, we feel uncomfortable. It's not because it's a taboo topic, it's because we do not know how to talk about it. Which is what a lot of my work has been focused Utkarsh Narang (26:48.732) I love that. And I agree how it is a taboo topic and I agree how and how you're sharing how the relationship with money has evolved. But I'm seeing this in you that you were you were open to having a new relationship, right? You're open to learning more about it. You were open to understanding the history, the current, the future of money. Right. But if if you were to simplify it. And I love this challenge that I throw to myself and to the guest often. There's someone who's in their 20s. Arj | Inaam (27:15.886) Mm. Utkarsh Narang (27:16.04) just starting to earn money or someone who's in the thirties and feeling that, Oh, I've been slogging nine to five, making ends meet, but, but I still fear money. And especially, you know, uh, growing up in India, my mom, I think, or, or maybe my dad, some, someone used to either of them was to say that, "Paisa hathon ka mel hota hain" translates into that money is dirt in your hand. And I completely disagree with that because I think if, if I would want my hands to be dirty, if, that's the case, but Arj | Inaam (27:36.14) Yes. Yes. Arj | Inaam (27:45.23) All Utkarsh Narang (27:45.584) If you were to simplify it for someone who's listening to us, how should they evolve their relationship with money or what according to urgent is the right relationship to have with money? What would that statement be? Arj | Inaam (27:51.566) I'm going to quickly chat on that phrase as well, because I found a different way to look at it. I think the phrase itself I hate because it shouldn't be associated that way, but I also feel like money is a direct proportional relationship to the amount of effort and hard work you put in. So if you work hard, and I know this is old school, it might be old school thinking. Utkarsh Narang (28:01.512) Uh-huh. Utkarsh Narang (28:05.232) Yeah. Yeah. Arj | Inaam (28:19.448) If you work hard, you put in the hours, you put in what is needed as a person, money will come. And that is also why in my life, if you look at my LinkedIn or my career everyone gets alarm bells like, what even is this guy? Like he has no career I'm like, well, I've... Utkarsh Narang (28:24.038) Mm. Mm. Utkarsh Narang (28:34.376) Thanks Arj | Inaam (28:38.43) more continents in more companies than most people do across their entire career and that's because I just worked hard. I worked hard, the money came. And that's a very important differentiator principle to understand that yeah money's hard but if you put in the effort it comes and if you build the skill set and the capability to do it it'll come. Now how do you make young people explain like what is Utkarsh Narang (29:02.78) Can I pause pause on that? As you were saying that, you know, something emerged for me, which I think I love, and I've actually drawn a heart on my notes when I talk to guests. imagine this to be an I know how were you alluding me to that or nudging me to that, but it seems that the more you work hard, the dirtier your hands will get and the more money will come to you if you're working smart also. So yeah, there's, there's this nuance of hard and smart work, but you'll have to put in the work to earn the money, right? It's not going to fall or Arj | Inaam (29:26.164) Correct. 100%. And it didn't for, even for, I know a lot of people, trash talk wealthy people. Utkarsh Narang (29:31.804) grow on a tree for you and yeah. Arj | Inaam (29:41.344) It didn't come for them off of the air or off of a tree either. They had to put in the work. had to put in the effort. I was recently invited to Davos earlier this year. Same theme. They were some of the most humble people on the planet. Some of my friends to this day come from some of the wealthiest families on the planet. They are the most down-to-earth, humble people you ever meet. Utkarsh Narang (29:45.19) Yeah, absolutely. Arj | Inaam (29:59.806) And that's because they respect and appreciate that hard work. A dollar for them, regardless of how many they might have in their bank account, is still a dollar. And they understand the worth of the hard work that's gone into creating that dollar. So, and I think, sorry, your question was around, yeah, we resonate, we align on the, yeah, correct. Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (30:16.2) So I think, I think we've, we've, yeah. So we have, we have refamed the, exactly. So my mom and dad, they might've heard it from a previous generation, but that generation might have been, my granddad would have been a farmer maybe. And he said to her, yeah, you get your hands dirty, you get money. And that's what the relationship was. So this is, this is insightful. I'm excited. Arj | Inaam (30:25.283) Yes. Arj | Inaam (30:29.166) Yeah, and that's fine. Correct. How do you work? It's just true. It's maths. At the end of the day, it's all maths. And I think to help people with the first thing, like A is to acknowledge that you don't really know a lot about money and then separate the fear of the knowledge you don't have. Utkarsh Narang (30:39.848) Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Arj | Inaam (30:56.842) from, okay, it's nothing to be afraid of, it's just something I don't know and I can spend time learning about it. and seeking out the support. It's not too dissimilar to mental health or to physical health. Mental health care for a very long time was an awareness thing. You need to talk about it. But now you do things about it. Similar to that, your financial health is part of your overall well-being. And not knowing about it is not something you should fear. It's something you should welcome with open arms and say, I don't know what I'm doing. I need some help. And then you go find help. But the help you find as well becomes very important in that it shouldn't be conflicted help from say advisors who get paid commission for selling you things, which is something you can only learn if you're in the space. It shouldn't be help that comes with a motive or an agenda. It should be help that is help for you, which is something we've kind of built into what we do at Inaam It's very customized around helping you learn about what you're doing as you do it to help make you make a decision for yourself, empowering you to make a decision for yourself. So to make young people say A, you may not know, B, remove the fear and see literally start talking about it. Build simple systems, even just a dirty Excel of understanding your current financial position. What do you earn? What do you spend? What do you have left? What do you do with what you have left? How much of what do you have left? Do you do something with or should you do something with? Arj | Inaam (32:25.272) Do you have a large life event coming up? Do you need to start putting money away for it? How often and how much to get to the point you need to have that amount of money? Money's not hard. It's made complicated by financial services industry folk who have been in it to try... make people believe they add value. It's jargonized, which means complicated words, which means just English. So if you can make finance plain English, which is what we do, people understand it. So A, don't be afraid of it. B, understand it at a baseline level. It's very, it's money. It's maths. It's maths that we learned in school. You don't even need to know calculus or derivatives or algebra. It's basic BODMAS If we all learned BODMAS, you understand money. It's... putting things in, taking things out, multiplying things, dividing things, and creating an understanding of how those things interact together. And understanding that intrinsically money as a concept is not hard is literally going from one place to another, and it costs something of value to take and to give. The version is very simple. Once you understand that, so far that is all you need to know. It is the baseline of foundational money. Utkarsh Narang (33:20.84) Hmm. Arj | Inaam (33:41.738) And I, because of the fact that there are also regulatory bodies that govern all of this, I need to go ahead and say everything that I say, please don't consider it as financial or personal advice. is advice in general and purpose, blah, blah, blah. Which is also the reason why I need to do that is that a financial advisor is someone who like, most like a doctor has the certificate, the piece of paper to say, I've taken your personal financial situation into account and I'm now providing you personal advice. What I've done is provided very general advice. It may not hold true for everyone depending on the personal circumstances, but it is advice nonetheless and I would not like for anyone to construe it as advice. Now these are the safety checks and measures that the world has built in, but they also create a barrier of entry for people to help make lives easier for others, which sometimes you just have to overlook and oversee, which is Utkarsh Narang (34:25.128) Hmm. Arj | Inaam (34:30.896) risk-taker in me which is doing that and build things that we've built to this point. But yeah, literally de-jargonizing, understanding it's not hard, removing the fear, taking very simple concepts and applying them to your day-to-day life is what I'd suggest young people do and worst case, sign up to the Inam waitlist and you learn about money as you go. Yeah, it's an impact investing tool but it also comes with all the other things that we do. Utkarsh Narang (34:47.656) beautiful. Utkarsh Narang (34:59.56) Yeah, I know that's so meaningful. I love how you've simplified it and money is not complex. think it's just, and you need to know body mass, which my 10 year old knows. So it's as simple as that. But as we now get into the state, like what does the future of money look like to you? Arj | Inaam (35:16.718) I think, so what a lot of people don't know is when we live in the sides of the world we live in, are relatively privileged, we have access to a lot of things. We have access to the internet, have access to digital banking, we have access to whatever we want at our fingertips. There are 8 billion people on the planet. I would... Arj | Inaam (35:46.7) I think there is still a large significant portion of 40 to 60 % of people that do not have access to the internet. That is on continents like Africa, Southeast Asia, parts of India. And whilst the more developed parts of the world will grow much faster, which will make the wealth inequality even worse, those parts of the world will still need to start at the grassroots level to be serviced in the way we are. And so when it comes to the future of money, as a transactional and store of value token, concept, thing, it will and needs to continue to exist if those economies are going to grow, thrive and progress to get to the point where we are today. how that applies to the more developed parts of the world. That really is the very emerging and bleeding edge school of thought where We've seen history repeat itself. from the very first early days when had barter trade, where it was like, I'll give you five sheep if you can give me three blocks of wood, to when we started exchanging brass coins, to when we started minting gold coins and keeping them at a person for safekeeping. And then we got the first note, which became the first currency note, which was, I promise to deliver to you X amount of gold coins on the deliverance of this note that was the first inkling of currency as we know it today. The need for that will continue. The mode in which it happens is probably where the most innovation, change and discomfort may come from. We're still humans until we metamorphosize into some form of AI. We will still need real food. Utkarsh Narang (37:44.52) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (37:48.142) Right, hopefully. The oats. Yeah. Arj | Inaam (37:49.708) the grass and oxy, the oats, to physically potentially pay for fuel or charge your car. There are still various elements of societal and human life that revolve around being able to transact for it. So I don't think money is going anywhere. How we interact with it, our relationship with it, how we store it, how we invest it, 100 % may change. Given what good old Trump has now done in the US. there are questions around what is the future of stock markets? Are they an effective mechanism for holding, storing and valuing capital? If one country has that much influence and control over it, we now know that blockchain has the ability to transact and a lot of use cases have been built. But because we're humans, because we're inherently greedy, we found ways to use it for bad things. And so that's why we can't have good things for a very long time as a society. So I think... It's an evolving and emerging school of thought and discussion of what does the future of money look like. The core concept though of if you need a good or service or something in your life, you need to exchange something in order to receive it is not a concept I see changing in the next century. Purely because what may need to happen then is if our planet genuinely does go up in fumes, we need to establish a new form of society, something like Star Trek. Utkarsh Narang (39:00.2) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (39:12.402) Yeah. Right. Arj | Inaam (39:25.684) where everyone has a social status or a norm. We all have same access to housing, to boarding, to food, to whatever, but we have roles and responsibilities in our society which we conclude and money becomes obsolete. It becomes there is no need for it. I genuinely don't think our world is at the point where it is ready for something like that. and we're still working on finite stores of value. People give a lot of shit to crypto. However, the one that still continues to outperform is Bitcoin, not because it's nothing, but because its supply is limited. And we go back to economics, core basic principles, supply and demand. Money has a price because it has its own quantity in supply. It has its own demand to be paid for. Similarly, Bitcoin has a very finite supply. We've also seen that happen with Utkarsh Narang (39:55.334) Yeah. Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (40:07.24) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (40:20.028) Yeah. Yeah. Correct. Arj | Inaam (40:21.028) gold which has a finite supply on the planet, its price keeps spiking when less of it is available. So I think needing to exchange X for Y for a certain amount will continue to prevail until we as a society decide actually we don't need this thing anymore and we're all happy being equally wealthy in Utkarsh Narang (40:34.086) It's going to continue. Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (40:45.32) Hmm. Arj | Inaam (40:46.222) ways in which we just define or decide wealth to be, which is not something I see changing in the immediate future. Utkarsh Narang (40:51.26) Yeah, I don't think so. That'll be utopia. But I think what's really fascinating is, and it almost like makes me compare like how AI is a bus that's changing technology and changing the way we operate, right? Even money is changing shape and form. And if we don't learn, unlearn and relearn our relationship with money, then we might be left behind. But what's as we... Arj | Inaam (41:12.246) All right. Utkarsh Narang (41:15.304) Now get towards the end of the conversation and love the whatever we spoke about. Maybe we need a part two urgent. So we'll come back and discuss that. But if now we go a few decades forward, if we go and meet that 80 year old urgent who's looking as young as he is right now, no gray hair and he's he's figured life out. If that 80 year old urgent were to come to you right now and give you like one piece of advice, what do you think? What do you think he'll he'll say to you? Arj | Inaam (41:25.294) Mm. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Arj | Inaam (41:43.596) The eighty-year-old came to me and said, gave me some advice. Arj | Inaam (41:54.702) It's paradoxical for me because there is something I want 80-year-old origin to have achieved to be able to have come back to me and said it but I also want to hold true to my lifelong kind of role model which is Steve Jobs and that his recent concept around the courage to be disliked and focusing on the work and you know all those things but also certain life changes that have happened in my life I think I'd say to the, the advice 80 year old Arjun would come back and give me today would probably be, don't think you need to change the world at the cost of those around you because what's the point of living in that kind of world where you don't have them around you anymore? Utkarsh Narang (42:39.176) Cool. Utkarsh Narang (42:49.126) It's a conflict I've operated with Arjun and I love this idea that Steve Jobs says, right? Putting a dent in the universe. I, yeah, same here, man. And I used to speak to a mentor, this was several years ago, and that person highly accomplished, but spent like one day a month with their family. And they were putting the dent in the universe and they've put that dent in the universe, but. Arj | Inaam (42:57.71) Correct, that is literally my life motto. Utkarsh Narang (43:15.846) And I used to keep challenging them that I want to put the dent in the universe while I be with my family, while I have friends, while I have relationships. And I'm now again at 40 finding it. The pace of achieving that dent in the universe will be different from how Steve Jobs did it or how someone else did it. But maybe we have our own unique dent in the universe. Arj | Inaam (43:31.299) Great. Yeah, think acknowledging that it may take longer and it may not look like what anyone else has done is very important. But knowing that your time will come. And if it doesn't, it's fine because you did it on your own terms. I'll end off with Frank Sinatra. It's like, you know, I did it my way and Utkarsh Narang (43:51.28) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (43:55.932) Yeah. Yeah. Arj | Inaam (44:01.08) So what? You you might get there later. You might get, you won't even get there in the way you think you're going to get there. But knowing that you did it and you'll learn, you'll make mistakes. Like I'm making a lot right now. I know I'm making a lot right now, potentially in my personal life, maybe in my professional life, because I'm thinking what I'm doing is correct to get the world to where I would like it to be. But. The fact of the matter is this thing is bigger than me. The change I'm hoping for it to leave on the world may only happen once I'm not in the world, and that's fine. Being very comfortable with that is what takes the courage and what takes the heart, because... Utkarsh Narang (44:33.222) Yeah. Arj | Inaam (44:40.96) everyone around you, society again, even in the startup space or it's a career space, will make you feel like, you know, why isn't this thing out yet? You've been spending so much time on it. Leave your job. Why do you still have a job? Build the thing. Just focus on goal. You know, not everyone knows everything about you and holding yourself. Utkarsh Narang (44:56.901) Exactly. Arj | Inaam (45:00.984) to those standards, which is the same thing we go back to in the start of, why aren't you doing the things Arjun's doing? Be more like Arjun. Why are you like his kid or his, daughter or his son, you know? Putting that pressure on you, on yourself, I think is a disservice to yourself. I've struggled with this. I do it. I see a bunch of my friends, they do very well. Their startups might be ahead of mine. Utkarsh Narang (45:07.368) correct. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Arj | Inaam (45:27.502) their professional careers may be ahead of mine and I'm not there. I know if I made different choices I would be 10x ahead or in front or whatever the case might be. We don't really know where I could have been but making peace with the fact that I know and have conviction in what I'm doing right now. take me. It could be a springboard. could be, know, yeah, I'm like, I tell this to everyone. I started at minus 40 or minus 20 behind the starting line because of the situation I was in after my father passed. And everyone started at zero or, you know, and everyone's start of the start line is very different. The finish line ultimately is the same. So I think just recognizing that you don't need to Behold to what the world is going to tell you need to behold to and being comfortable with it is probably the hardest part of this You will lose people along the way you will lose parts of yourself along the way you will build new things you will find new people But staying true to what you believe in and having the stomach to digest that is probably the hardest part Utkarsh Narang (46:35.72) So to summarize, no one's going to live the life that you're living, so make it worth it. What I believe is that when I wake up in the morning and when I sleep at night, I sleep feeling that I did my fucking best. And that's all that matters. I don't know if I'll have 100 days or if I'll have 80 years or I'll have 70 years on this planet. Maybe this is the last year that I live and that's OK. But do the things that give joy to you and... Arj | Inaam (46:44.782) Mm. Arj | Inaam (46:51.658) Exactly. 100%. Yeah. Yeah. Arj | Inaam (46:59.864) Correct. Yeah. with the people that it gives you joy or dis. Because without those people, like I've pondered this question a few times. It might sound like a pompous ass right now, but cool, Inam becomes a unicorn. We change the direction of global capital. And then I'm sitting here in this office or this building or this in my fucking, I don't know, electric Rolls Royce. I'm like, cool. Utkarsh Narang (47:05.116) with the people. Absolutely. Utkarsh Narang (47:26.47) Mansion Yeah Yeah. Yeah. Arj | Inaam (47:31.98) The fuck do I do now? There is nothing I can't buy, is nowhere I can't be, there is you know, nothing that is out of my reach but who is it, who is it for? Like, who am I sharing this with? And as someone who's always shared what they have, if you don't have anyone to do that with, you know, what's the point? Utkarsh Narang (47:54.77) What's the point? What's the point? Beautiful. So I hope the conversation to our listeners added value. If you're listening to this on a podcast platform, leave a comment, share it with someone who might enjoy this. And if you're on YouTube, then like, share and subscribe because we want to make these real conversations go viral. And this is Arjun and with Karsh signing off. Arj | Inaam (48:14.254) Cheers everyone. Utkarsh Narang (48:17.468) Beautiful my friend,