Utkarsh Narang (00:01.191) As I was researching for this episode, this guest that I have today, he's on the executive advisory board of multiple organizations. He has held the CHRO or the global CHRO position for many. But what struck me was that on LinkedIn, the first role that he had shows up as it started in 1985. And that was the same year that I was born with. So to me, it's a very golden and beautiful opportunity to learn from someone who I deeply admire and And I have met a few times and what I see in this person is who I'm going to introduce you to very soon is that the higher this person got in their roles, in their responsibilities, the deeper they got in their soul. And that hopefully listeners, if you're seeking to learn from this kind of experience, then this is the right episode for you. Welcome, Aadesh, looking forward to this conversation with you. Aadesh Goyal (00:51.448) Same here, of course, thanks for the kind words. That's so shocking for me to hear this comparison, right? And it's so good to talk to you, specifically in a podcaster in general, who were actually born in the year when I started working. So this is just an amazing opportunity for me too. Utkarsh Narang (01:09.429) Yeah. Absolutely. And I'm pretty sure the listeners are looking forward to learning so much for you. My hypothesis is, and I don't know if we will be honest to it or not, but my hypothesis is that we will today speak about leadership. We will speak about maybe happiness. Maybe we will also speak about how AI is transforming the HR world in your experience and eyes, because you've seen it evolve through so many changes in technology, in geopolitical situations that I think this is another shift that you're observing. So I'm looking forward to learning all of that. Aadesh Goyal (01:45.046) Same here and you know the question that you ask is really an opportunity for me to you know think deeply because every question has you know this opportunity for us to to really reflect and contemplate. Utkarsh Narang (02:00.575) Beautiful. Absolutely. So the first question that we start the podcast with Aadesh is if that eight year old little boy who did not know where life would take him and what would happen and wherever that future lies, that eight year old young boy growing up comes and meets you right now at this stage and age at which you are, what kind of a conversation will emerge between the two of you? Aadesh Goyal (02:24.472) my god. Let me just go back quickly. So yeah, was in this really small industrial town in Rajasthan, India, Khetri, district Jhunjhunu. And it was one of the largest copper mines in the country. My father was a mining engineer and... We shifted there when I was one year old. this would be, it would be totally crazy because at that time life was really simple, especially in that, in the middle of nowhere town, which was actually in the middle of a desert. The whole colony and the industry plant there was surrounded by desert. and very beautiful, very simple people. today we talk about AI. At that time, we had not even heard of a calculator. We would go on hikes on Sundays, sometimes on the mountains there, some Aravli, or sometimes in the fields. And when you would feel thirsty, the little mud channels that go through the... the agricultural fields for water, irrigation. We would just simply put our hands there, take water and drink from there. Or if you're going on hikes, we would find these, you know, berries, big berries or small berries in Rajasthan, you call it ber or nasser. We would just pluck it from the bush and just eat it straight away, right? You can't think of doing those things today. So it's a totally different world, you know, and... Utkarsh Narang (03:40.437) Mm. Utkarsh Narang (03:57.237) Mm. Aadesh Goyal (04:08.75) Even from the time I started working, things have totally changed. At that time, you had to call the operator to dial long distance. You couldn't dial it. Then you had to book a call. And from there, fax machines had just come, et cetera. And from then on, I feel lucky to be a part of all the changes that have happened in the world. So it's pretty uncanny to think of it like that. Utkarsh Narang (04:19.57) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (04:35.007) Hmm. Yeah, such, such simpler times, right? To, to drink water and now you'll be concerned about is it contaminated? What's the AQI level in the air? What is happening to the water and all of these things. But, but that eight year old Aadesh, what would he say to you or what would you say to him? I'm wanting to want to kind of go deeper into the conversation that might emerge. Aadesh Goyal (04:55.81) Yeah, let me quickly think about this. Utkarsh Narang (05:00.479) Take your time. Aadesh Goyal (05:03.886) I think the little boy might ask me that, you know, whatever journey you have had, would you have anticipated this? And maybe I would ask that little boy, you know, do you already have some idea about, you know, the journey that you want to undertake? Those are the type of questions. And I don't remember whether it was at eight or perhaps when I was 12 or 13. The only thing I wanted to be was to be a doctor. Right? And for the next few years, you know, my uncles and my cousin's sister who doctors, would, you know, the only thing I would talk to them about was, you know, medicine and medicine related stuff. And it just so happened that I just didn't get there. And for maybe a couple of years, I felt, am I doing the right thing? But very quickly, you know that became a no problem at all and when I look back today sometimes I feel whatever happened was actually a better thing to do so I think maybe I would tell that little child that hey you can you should have dreams and you can have dreams but you know some of those will come true otherwise even betters will better ones will come through Utkarsh Narang (06:32.117) Love that, love that. I always tell the listeners that they should have like a diary or a pen to kind of think through these things. Because what you just said, I think this question and our listeners are between say 25 to 45. That's the maximum that we have seen. So I understand how this question and even today, like for me, like I've done a few things in life, but this question, am I doing the right thing? I think there is not even a week when I don't ask myself that is this the right thing to do? Why am I starting a podcast? And all these questions are very, very challenging, but also meaningful. And then what you just said, I think some dreams will come true. Otherwise some others will come through. I think to me that's a very powerful, powerful statement. But how does Aadesh, if you were to bring it to now, this, this current state that the world is in, how does a 30 year old or 35 year old answer these questions at this stage? Because, you know, it's like at, at a In a future time, we can reflect back and say how the dots connected and Steve Jobs has his famous saying, but someone who's going through this really challenging tumultuous time, how do you, how do you help them comprehend this question? Am I doing the right thing? Aadesh Goyal (07:44.718) Yeah, see this is a I think this is a very important and philosophical question for our life. But there are no easy answers there. just intellectually understanding it is one thing, but to be able to understand it in spirit is really what counts. And, you know, that happens slowly. Sometimes it can happen very quickly by accident, but sometimes you know, you're going through the grind and getting the shine. So, you know, if a 30 year old person has to look at it right now, I would say, hey, maybe this person has been working for a few years, either already married with a small child, or maybe wanting to get married, maybe have a life partner, and thinking about life in terms of what I want to become, what I want to gain, et cetera, et cetera. And I think... Keep all your dreams, keep all your aspirations, but make sure that you are having a good time right now. And the worry or the anxiety of whether you're going to get there or not is really not important. And that must not consume us. And I have a simple test. And when I teach the Art of Living Happiness course, I ask this question to people. Utkarsh Narang (08:47.861) you Aadesh Goyal (09:09.506) I've asked this to several thousand people and I haven't yet found a person who said yes, he or she doesn't agree with that. I said see, go back 10 years and just try to remember everything that you wanted in life at that time. Right? And you know, one, two, three, four, whatever that is. And now think whether you've got it all. And most people have got that. plus something more. Now using logic or mathematics and extrapolation, why wouldn't the same thing happen in the future? And since I've asked this to thousands of people, I haven't yet found anybody whose experience is not this. It's a kind of a theorem that keep dreaming but let it not consume you. Keep giving your best but enjoy and be happy. Utkarsh Narang (10:12.937) Yeah, very interesting. So keep living in the moment. Don't let the anxiety consume you. I think it's very important fact. And I think how you're putting it, I'm understanding is like the future will work it out and you don't have to be really worried about the future. And I think I was, since you spoke about out of living, was listening to a video by Gurudev and what he was saying was that I don't clearly remember what it was, but he was saying something of the sort that some people feel that the Aadesh Goyal (10:25.4) Thank Utkarsh Narang (10:41.813) past that has happened was their destiny. And then the future that's going to come. No. So I think he said past has happened to them, but the future is what you feel like is the destiny. So past was a choice and future was a destiny, something like that. But it's the reverse, right? That the past has happened and you cannot do anything about it. Let it go. But the future is still a choice. I think that was a very powerful idea. Aadesh Goyal (10:56.502) Yes. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely, very powerful. Very, very powerful. Utkarsh Narang (11:09.205) And how did this, so you spoke about being art of living teacher, how did this emerge into your professional experiences in lifetime? When did that happen? Aadesh Goyal (11:19.758) So, you know, this was more by an accident. You know, we, my wife, we had moved to Gurgaon. Gurgaon was really a, 97 was really a, or a village, more or less. And we had moved from Delhi and there was not much, you know, to do other than work and all that. And my wife had her own independent business and she was looking to do some... Utkarsh Narang (11:33.161) Hmm. Hmm. Aadesh Goyal (11:48.056) trainings, et cetera, because in the corporate world, get a chance. In those times, there were no open programs that you could sign up. And somewhere she saw a poster, Harder Living program. And she was intrigued by it, and she called those people. And they said, hey, actually, we have one course starting today, right in Palam, where we used to live. And she just joined. She really enjoyed it and over the next several weeks, the type of things that she described to me, I said, hey, this is just a wonderful thing. so she found out and I talked to one of the teachers in Delhi and said, hey, we want to do this for all our employees. So in the meeting, he said, hey, how can you recommend something to all your employees if you have not done it yourself? I just landed up doing it and you know, I went with Vandana, you know, I was kind of against having a Guru right from my childhood for whatever reason. And she was going to go and be in a satsang with him. It was a Sunday, our driver wasn't there, so, and she never used to like to drive. So, you know, I became the driver and went there and I was going to remain outside, but she said, hey, come and sit on the last seat and something crazy happened the moment Gurudev came in and he had not even sat down. something shifted in me and you know basically I said I actually want to do the art of living course with him. So it was like totally unexplainable and somewhat irrational. You know that's how the foray happened. And from the time I did the course I have remained to be a student. Practice every day and you know pursuit of the practices and learning. Utkarsh Narang (13:38.581) Mm. interesting. Utkarsh Narang (13:54.677) Yeah, fascinating. And I've had the joy of being in a class that Vandaji took, I think, virtually many, many years ago. So I resonate deeply with that. What is it about? And I'm kind zooming out. What is it about maybe these breathing practices? What is it about just meditation overall? Like, what has been your experience that how does that you think impacts a busy executive who is just wanting to build his career or her career? Aadesh Goyal (14:24.622) See the if you see you know go back in your life and I go back in mine and that is true for almost all of us The things that are most important for us in our lives We have never been told Anything about it in terms of learning right so for example Whatever we want to do in life is basically because we want to be happy but Do you ever remember being taught about happiness at all? So, if you see the ancient practices and scriptures or whatever of India were basically about finding a meaning in life and being happy ultimately. So by doing what I discovered to my pleasure because I had also no idea. You know, we did it by accident. You know, the teacher forced me that hey, if you want to recommend it to so many people, you want to do it yourself. And like when I did the Sushant Kriya, it was really magical. You know, in a way that I actually didn't have any challenges in my life. No problem, nothing. Everything was going so well. But still I felt some fountain of change and happiness and some type of, you know, totally different type of joy. And then the teacher got a promise. that you have to practice for 40 days, you know, that's the Guru Daksha and we did it and then, you know, it just, it was so good. It just kept going on and on and on. So I think it is, I wouldn't say it is, there's a good connection between people who are busy, but it is actually an essential thing for you to be successful in the professional world to... You know, just the way you brush your teeth, you you need to do something for your emotional and spiritual cleaning, mental cleaning. Utkarsh Narang (16:29.151) Yeah, think that, yeah, that's a, that's a very good example that like, like you brush your teeth for, for the hopefully whole of your life. And I have two young kids who I've had challenges to tell them, like, why brushing your teeth is important, but you do that over your entire life. And if you don't do it for maybe one or two days, your teeth are not going to fall out, but you still get back to it because it's important for your hygiene. Right. And I think, that's what you're saying. Some, some level of meditation practice or a spiritual Aadesh Goyal (16:49.684) Absolutely. Utkarsh Narang (16:58.217) practice or that cleansing, think the word that you use, Aadesh, I deeply resonate with that. Thank you for sharing. If you were to shift our attention now to, and I was reading this article by you, which I really love, and you've had, you've had experience of working with leaders, people, and 15 years, I think if I, if I remember correctly, 15 years as the CHRO at Tata Communications, what, what is according to Aadesh, the definition of leadership? Aadesh Goyal (17:02.189) Yeah. Aadesh Goyal (17:23.788) Yeah. See, I think, you know, it's really a very, I would say, deep and broad subject. there are two aspects of leadership, right? And depending on the time that you want to spend on this, will cover both of them. One is obviously leadership. And the other one is that I call it self leadership. see leadership, classical meaning is that someone who has the ability Utkarsh Narang (17:40.597) Let's do this. Aadesh Goyal (17:53.058) to achieve things working with people who has a vision, who can build relationships, somebody who can do critical thinking and strategy. And not just for himself or herself, but also for the organization and team really help achieve stuff, right? Someone who's a good communicator, has a good presence, that type of thing. And... Within that, know, over time we all keep learning from our own experiences, right? And basically we are really standing on the shoulders of other people who came into our lives, right? And we may derive some meaning out of it. That may be our choice or maybe our destiny. Hard to say. So what I think is a good leader is first of all, needs to be a good human being. So I feel that being trustworthy is the most important thing in leadership. So if you're working with a new person or new persons, how do you gain your trust, know, trust with them? And then how do you maintain it? So being trustworthy and remaining trustworthy is the most important thing. And I think the second is when people look back after they spend time together with you, they... they should feel two or three things. One is that this person always had my back, was thinking about my success. I think the second is that I always had great opportunities to learn and grow. And the third is that... Aadesh Goyal (19:47.128) This person did everything that he or she could to help me develop, even if it meant being critical or being using somewhat of directness or force. Utkarsh Narang (19:49.781) Mm. Aadesh Goyal (20:03.15) So, and through whatever means you choose for your definition of leadership, you are really able to not just achieve goals for the organization, for your team, but also help people develop. So, everybody's a leader, but can they keep growing as a leader? So that's really how I think about leadership. Utkarsh Narang (20:25.621) Mm. Utkarsh Narang (20:30.133) Got it. So that to me is what we're speaking about. So you divided leadership into two aspects. One is the self leadership and then there is leadership itself, which you spoke about trust and we can go deeper into each one of them. And then a leader should be able to make the other person feel that the leader has my back, gives me opportunities to grow and does everything that they can to help me develop. So that's one aspect and I'll go deeper into each one. But now this idea of self leadership, what does that stand for, Aadesh? Aadesh Goyal (21:01.738) So if you look at your life or my life or life of people that you know, they have a job to do and job would include being an entrepreneur. And the definition that I gave you is primarily applicable to their work. Utkarsh Narang (21:21.045) Hmm. Aadesh Goyal (21:22.616) But if you look at your whole life and ask people what are the most important things on their mind right now? Job may be number one or definitely top five. But the other things that they would be worried about is, you know, am I happy or not? Number two, do I have good health? Number three, as human beings we have... propensity for affinity, right? Do we have good relationships? So the problems in life of people are, you know, if you ask me only four. you know job and money and resources number two you know am I happy excited or to number three good relationships and health so the definition of leadership doesn't address anything other than career and maybe resources and money the other three categories are not addressed at all so and unfortunately they are not even Utkarsh Narang (22:10.677) Mmm. Utkarsh Narang (22:16.18) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (22:25.781) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (22:29.663) Mm-hmm. Aadesh Goyal (22:32.61) taught anywhere. But like after working for 40 years, this is not something any leadership program talks about. So I think self leadership is very, very essential. And that's what provides completeness in your life. So it's really not either or. It is leadership and self leadership together. That's what makes your life fuller and happier. Utkarsh Narang (23:04.245) fuller and happier. I got stuck on those words. So that makes life fuller and happier when you have leadership and self leadership. And love how you divided all the challenges that we face as human beings into four big buckets. One is the job and the money slash resources. Next is happiness. Would it be okay for me to use the word fulfillment also with it? Happiness and fulfillment. Joy and then relationships are critical, whether that's at work, whether that's in your personal life. Aadesh Goyal (23:25.004) Yeah, help in a school environment, absolutely. Utkarsh Narang (23:32.649) And then your own health, because if the health is not doing well, then every other bucket starts to fall apart. As I look at maybe, let me just go deeper on this idea between self leadership and leadership. Do you think it comes like the egg and the chicken theory, which comes first or which comes after? Like what's the relationship between the two? Is what I'm asking. Aadesh Goyal (23:51.182) you Aadesh Goyal (23:55.512) So I think, you know, there are like two sides of the coin. You know, if the coin is our life, there are two sides of the coin. You know, without the two sides, there is no coin. So, it's really not either or, it's and. The combination is what makes it powerful. Utkarsh Narang (24:12.661) you Utkarsh Narang (24:17.567) Beautiful. Yeah. I think what I'm going to recommend to listeners is like to really take this home. They should actually like have a coin that's with them. They're better on one side. They can almost write leadership, which is of everything that you do, almost like an external world, including work, but this idea of self leadership, which takes you more deeper into your own life, relationships, happiness, health and job and money. Then you spoke about this idea of leadership. And then the core ingredient I think you spoke about there was trust. But it's so hard to trust people easily. So what has been in your experience over the 40 years of wonderful experience that you've had? What allows people to trust each other? Aadesh Goyal (25:00.408) Hmm. See, I think this is again such a deep subject and somewhat abstract that it's very hard to define it. You know, you feel it more than you can define it. So I think trust develops gradually. Right. So it's like two stones coming together. They may not have any place, you know, only one point to connect. But as they spend more time together. Utkarsh Narang (25:08.788) Mm. Aadesh Goyal (25:29.358) they change their shapes from the point of contact to where there's a larger contact is the simile that comes to my mind and I don't remember giving this simile earlier before so there may be something in it so for example when you and I first met We are primarily talking about work and work will help develop respect. If you're good at your work, that's what I experienced, then I will respect you for your knowledge, for your expertise, all that. When you add a bit of feeling to it and that feeling becomes positive, I think that's when trust develops and that feeling develops through personal non-work interactions. I share about myself as a person to you, you share, we exchange notes and then there is certain amount of consistency that needs to happen, which means every time Utkarsh Narang (26:24.65) Yeah. Aadesh Goyal (26:42.84) My actions are principle based. There's not much difference between what I say and what I do. And whatever I do and whatever I say, I keep doing consistently. And what I do may be different from what you do for the same thing. But if you see consistency, that's when, that's the third dimension. And perhaps there may be something more, but... Utkarsh Narang (26:52.053) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (26:56.853) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (27:12.531) Mm. Aadesh Goyal (27:13.338) These are the three things that come to my mind. Utkarsh Narang (27:15.411) Love it. Love it. I think this is very, helpful because what we're saying is that if you're in a workplace or even in your personal life, if you show up doing what you're saying you will do, that's going to build trust. So do that over time. Consistency comes in and whatever your actions are, whatever you're doing, I think the, what you make the other person feel that also becomes an important part of this equation. which then leads to trust, which then leads to, to better leadership. Got it. In your experience, Aadesh and I don't know why this question came up with me because to me, like, you know, I, I, I, all I've seen you at is, is, is Tata communication. So, and I was speaking to someone that is priming me this question. Have you ever had the opportunity of meeting, Sir other Ratan Tata Aadesh Goyal (27:48.215) Yeah. Aadesh Goyal (28:05.838) Actually I met him, I saw him from a distance. So there used to be, and there still is this annual conference of leaders. It used to be about three fourths of a day earlier when I had joined Tata group at that time. And then for the last few years it's like a two day event. And I saw him from close quarters, but I never had the opportunity to meet him. Utkarsh Narang (28:34.101) you Aadesh Goyal (28:35.822) towards his end of tenure as the chairman of Tata Group. Utkarsh Narang (28:41.769) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's something about him. was sorry. Yeah. Great man. Absolutely. I was speaking to a coachee in the U S and if I ever have to give an example of great leadership, I just use Ratan Tata and I know people will resonate and I've never almost, I can easily say never. I've seen someone who would disagree with that thought. Like for other leaders, you know, you have these buckets for Steve jobs. Aadesh Goyal (28:44.046) Great man. Great man. Utkarsh Narang (29:08.925) Some people love him, some people don't love him and some even hate him. But for Sir Ratan Tata, it's like there's this point blank love is all I've seen. Aadesh Goyal (29:15.448) Totally. And I'll tell you, know, when I joined TADA group in 2010, you know, used to for some international events, you go and either you're speaker or attending some big conference and, you know, during the informal get together when over tea you run into somebody and I've run into Fortune 500 CEOs or Chairman and when I... They may not have heard of Tata Communications, but when I say Tata, they say, we met Mr. Tata. What a great man he is. So he was larger than, persona was larger than the Tata group. I was always, to say, taken aback with pleasure hearing such reverence in their being about Mr. Tata. Utkarsh Narang (30:13.343) And I think it boils down to what we're just speaking about, Aadesh, because you see him with those actions all the time. I'm still saying as if he's right here with us, and I know he's not, but still feels like he's here. So he would consistently show up with the same level of empathy, the same level of love, the same level of just this love, not just for humanity, even for animals. So I think you see that feeling really deeply resonate with everyone across the world. Aadesh Goyal (30:36.3) Yeah. Aadesh Goyal (30:43.218) Absolutely, absolutely. at least two people who are in a part of his office, like for many years are close friends of mine and they corroborate this. They have spent hours and hours with him over several years. So, you know, he is like that. Utkarsh Narang (30:57.717) Hmm, yeah. Utkarsh Narang (31:03.945) Yeah, yeah, powerful. We were speaking about leadership and self leadership. So I read one of this article that you wrote, Aadesh, and it stayed with me. So you said leadership and that I'm reading through that. For you to be a leader, you need to imagine like an artist, envision like a scientist, think like a business person, solve problems like an engineer, and be a great human being. Can we maybe just go through this one by one? Aadesh Goyal (31:27.768) Yes. Utkarsh Narang (31:30.985) When you say as a leader, imagine like an artist, what does that really mean? Aadesh Goyal (31:35.15) See, for example, if you want to do something meaningful, it would not necessarily be what somebody else has given you as an assignment. So you will have some type of purpose, some type of vision, some type of ambition to do something, right, create an impact. So... You know, it's like an artist. They start on a blank slate and magically create something. Right? So you just need to have that imagination about... making a difference. How are you going to make a difference? that's how and you know I had written this on a piece of paper a few years ago and I doodle a lot so I put it in scanned it and put in my doodles and when I came across it I came across it several times but then suddenly I said hey maybe I should I should just you know post something about it. Utkarsh Narang (32:41.887) Yeah, no, I agree. I agree. And this is very, it's a very holistic way of looking at leadership, right? It's not, it's not saying that, you cannot be creative. It's not saying that you cannot be a problem solving. It's, it's encompassing everything. And then when you, at the end, I think almost like signed it off by saying, a great human being. That's like the seal that just completes it. And then how does one envision like a scientist as a leader? Like where is the connection there? Aadesh Goyal (33:00.334) Yeah, absolutely. Aadesh Goyal (33:06.574) So you know scientists have some type of hypothesis right You know I've read a lot about science I don't claim to know science, but I read a lot, but you know some scientists have spent their entire lives working on one theory or one hypothesis Take for example I think Gregory Mendel, he was a scientist, but he was also a priest in a church. through the garden that they had in the church, and by cross pollination, this, that, he spent his entire life solving one hypothesis. You have to envision, right? You know, if you look at the biggest scientists, they envision something and then they pursue it. Keep pursuing it. Utkarsh Narang (34:15.253) Yeah. Yeah. Fascinating. I mean, it's, it, it takes a lot. It's like how, when we talk about successful entrepreneurs or leaders, they're focused on this one big idea and they'll use all their effort and resources to solve that problem. so that deeply resonates. then thinking like a business person, it is somewhat clear, but I'd love your commentary on it. Aadesh Goyal (34:38.734) So you know a business person is is Doing actually almost all the things that are there in the top, you know that five list But they are bringing it together They're doing operations they have a team they will run it they will sell it they have to do it in a way that makes money because without money business is not going to survive and so Utkarsh Narang (34:48.021) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (34:53.237) Hmm. Aadesh Goyal (35:08.002) That's something which is very essential. It brings everything together. Without that, you could pursue things, but they may not create that big an impact that's possible for you to create. Utkarsh Narang (35:20.937) Yeah, yeah, yeah, fascinating. And then solving problems like an engineer, that's what engineers find joy in. Aadesh Goyal (35:25.4) Yeah. Absolutely and you know if you really see everything that we're trying to do is a problem that needs to be solved. Problem need not be an issue. If you start seeing every issue as a problem and then think logically about how to break it down, how to solve it. You know everything can become easy. So irrespective of what your role or function that you're in. you can still solve problems like an engineer. So, you know, I think one of the key goals that I had, the reason I posted, you know, when it came to me, I had no reason, just, you know, came. First two, three came and then I added one or two more. But the reason I posted this is very different. Let's see, based on the job that we do, the role that we do, we label ourselves with that role. And that creates a total limitation of what we can do then. So this definition of leadership takes away the label. Irrespective of what you're doing, you can do all of this. And then actually do your job even better. Utkarsh Narang (36:47.103) Yeah. The labels are, what are limiting people. And that's where we don't do our best. We don't reach that highest potential that we speak about, but we kind of touched upon the idea of self leadership. And I know some of the listeners might still be thinking about that because it's a, it's a, it's a relatively newer concept because we talk about leadership in terms of just leadership. Now, if, you were to make it like a little bit more actionable, Aadesh, and yes, we all need balance in those four buckets, right? The resources, the happiness, the relationships and the health. for one to strengthen their self leadership. What are a few actionable tips? What can you share that they can kind of starting maybe as soon as they've listened to this episode, they can put it into practice. Aadesh Goyal (37:30.124) Yeah. So I've, you know, since I'm not working full time now, I can spend some more time. we, you my wife and I wonder, and I have started recently a series called a workshop on self leadership, breath, happiness and success. So that's a 90 minute workshop. It's complimentary. And basically if you see. Utkarsh Narang (37:48.021) brilliant. Aadesh Goyal (37:58.57) if you learn to breathe with awareness. you realize that when you breathe in awareness it's like you know kite is like a mind its nature is to flit here and there and if you see thread as a breath by tugging on the thread you can keep the kite where you want the kite to be right and we do this you know experiment of three or four minutes in the workshop, it's an experiential workshop and people say, you know, using breath, I can drop the past and the future and you know, when you're in the present moment, you experience the present moment, there is only peace there. There's only happiness there, right? So in five minutes people can experience it. And then, you know, that's what the Simple Art of Living course is about, you know, that you have also done that in... you know, 25 or 30 minutes of practice of what you have learned every day can help you to keep one part of what I described as self-leadership. And you know, if you see that's the foundation, when you are at peace and you are happy, people who come in contact with you also experience that. See, only a lit lamp can light other lamps. Only a happy person will rub happiness off in the other person. You know, if a person is depressed and kind of complaining, going through some phase, then none of us want to spend too much time with that person. So relationships get positively impacted because of that. Utkarsh Narang (39:42.463) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (39:47.679) Absolutely. 100%. Yeah. Love it. I think this is such a, and you know, it's, it's so easily available to us, Aadesh, like the breadth, we're all, and I think the, sometimes I share that the difference between we're respirating the whole time because we're not aware of it. And as soon as we become aware, that becomes breathing. And that's a, yeah. Aadesh Goyal (39:49.624) example. Aadesh Goyal (39:56.065) Absolutely. Aadesh Goyal (40:07.514) Absolutely. That's a great way to put it. And, and Utkarsh, you know, all our education today is about science and logic, right? Now in the last few years, you know, there are about hundred research papers available on the, the benefits of meditation, Sudarshan Kriya, breath, pranayam from the best universities in the world. Utkarsh Narang (40:29.993) Yeah. Yeah. Aadesh Goyal (40:37.582) So if you're looking for proof, there are two things. One is, you know, you do this few minutes experiment yourself and maybe do a course which is little longer. And then in order to convince yourself logically, read those papers, right? But like they say, the proof of the pudding is in eating, right? Like if you experience it yourself, nobody can describe you how good a Gulab Jamun is, right? till the time you taste it. So I think experimenting it, diving into it, swimming in it is really what is very, important. you there's a, you mentioned a few minutes ago, what's your recommendation to people who are very busy? So I've heard of a story of Gautam Buddha and he said that, Utkarsh Narang (41:09.173) Yeah, 100%. Utkarsh Narang (41:28.053) Hmm. Aadesh Goyal (41:36.32) Everybody must do meditation once a day. But if you are very busy, do it twice a day. Utkarsh Narang (41:43.797) Love it. Love it. Yeah. Love it. And I think the simplest, think what listeners can really do is, you know, we show up to social media and I talk to so many people who are going through that doom scrolling challenge, who are unable to stop themselves because they feel that gives them entertainment, that gives them dopamine or whatever they're seeking. Now there's no proof that there is actual dopamine being released after you've scrolled Instagram or Facebook or YouTube for 15 minutes. But you still do it every day as a creature of habit. I think the easiest challenge is just show up for 5 minutes. Maybe 10 is what I was about to say, but let's make it even low risk. For 30 days, show up for 5 minutes and just sit there and breathe. If you cannot do a course, if you cannot think of like a deeper guru or a practice of meditation, just show up for 5 minutes. Just breathe for those 5 minutes for 30 days. And if it does not help, then stop doing it. But if it does, then continue. Aadesh Goyal (42:39.36) Absolutely. happiness is a skill that can be learned. And every skill that expertise that we have, we had to practice it by repeating it. Right? So it's not like seeing doing a session like this is not like a it's like a trailer. Right? Utkarsh Narang (42:57.013) you Aadesh Goyal (43:07.202) But if you truly want to bring it into your life, then you have to do something every day. Like you have to brush twice a day at least. You take a shower once a day at least, sometimes twice. So, people who exercise, they have to exercise a few times a week. It cannot be the day I exercised last year and I'm gonna do it again this year. So, if the four things that I talked about are so important, why would we not spend time on it? is really the fundamental question and the way you put it about social media, five minutes out, know, when at the end of art of living course, when people say, hey, how are you going to take out 25, 30 minutes every day? So this is what I tell them that, five minutes, you know, everybody spends some time on news. And it doesn't matter how much news you know, you know, you never know enough. So reduce five minutes from there. Reduce five minutes from your sleeping. Reduce five minutes of, you know, watching TV and five minutes from something else. And that's it. You've got your 25, 30 minutes. So if something is important in your file, you need to prioritize it. You can't say I'm busy and like nobody, the type of roles that I've done, you know, it's like we had presence in 40 countries, customers in 200 countries. Utkarsh Narang (44:16.425) Yeah, Aadesh Goyal (44:35.758) My team itself was spread over a 15 hour time zone. The role, something or the other is going on in some country all the time. Like for people who used to say, hey, I'm too busy. At least, know, who knew me professionally, I would say, if I can find time to do it, is it justifiable in your mind for you to say that you're busy? Utkarsh Narang (45:02.197) Correct. It's a good question. It's a good question to ask. I know some of the people that you worked with. I'm going to call them and check with them. But I'm pretty sure they'll say that. This conversation, Aadesh, we've spoken about leadership and self-leadership. But it will be incomplete if we were to not discuss AI. And when you started this conversation, you shared about how you were on those hikes in your hometown in Rajasthan. Aadesh Goyal (45:03.832) They would laugh at it. Aadesh Goyal (45:10.73) Yeah. Aadesh Goyal (45:21.208) Mmm. Utkarsh Narang (45:30.397) And you would drink that water and there was no concept of AI, not even a calculator. But I think what was still there was human intelligence. And I think that still is here. So I just want to understand from your perspective, you've seen, you've seen COVID, you've seen recessions, you've seen, technology changes over the last 40 years in your role, right? And, and where I'm coming from is I see a lot of memes about everything in the world, but I see a lot of memes spoken about the HR function. But to me, if it is not the people, then who's going to get you the profit? Yes, you need technology, but people will build that technology. If there'll be bugs, people will fix those bugs. And yes, AI can do a lot, but AI cannot do everything. So what's your perspective? How are you seeing this, this very rapid evolution that we've seen in the last, I think 12 months from the moment OpenAI came and what's happening right now. So what's your viewpoint of the world and how, how it's evolving, especially for, the people function. Aadesh Goyal (46:05.004) Yeah. Aadesh Goyal (46:28.994) Hmm. So actually it has the potential to totally transform how HR is. Right. So since you're using HR as a specific thing, let me use one of the concepts of HR, which is quite important and well known. The high potential hyper program. Right. and you can read books and articles about it that have been written in the last 30-40 years. They talk about figuring out how to select high potential people and then how to develop them into senior leaders over time. And typically companies who have run these programs would choose 25, 30, 40 people every year and like that. Now imagine a company which is 50,000 employees or 25,000 employees and they have this hyper program. Two things have changed. There are two issues with this concept today. One is that nobody's thinking about, you know, working for a lifetime type of a situation or very long in the company, any company. Number two, a period of 10, 15, 20 years, typically over which these hyper programs would run. too much changes today compared to when these programs were envisaged. And the second problem is doing something for 40 people is something which is companies need. But if you see the employees need, every employee desires to have it. Utkarsh Narang (48:04.693) Mm-hmm. Aadesh Goyal (48:11.544) So through AI, you can create a hyper program on demand for every employee who wants to pursue it. So it really becomes employee choice. So there are two or three main components of this. One is you create learning on demand. So we went live with what we used to call as a project, Learn Flix, inspired by Netflix, learning on demand. Utkarsh Narang (48:39.615) Hmm. Hmm. Aadesh Goyal (48:41.922) rather than streaming or entertainment on demand. We went live with it in April, 2017. It didn't really have an AI at the time, but four or five years ago, we brought some amount of intelligence in that. And what that means is you build an ecosystem where anybody can learn anything at any time at the speed that they want, when they want, from where they want, et cetera. Utkarsh Narang (49:11.669) you Aadesh Goyal (49:11.97) Just the way entertainment happens today. Once you do this, things totally magically change. People are learning stuff that, you know, they may not have learned otherwise in a traditional L and D management type of a situation where you do some training, need identification, you say this type of a role for this category of people, job, family roles, levels and all that. Now, Utkarsh Narang (49:19.093) Hmm. Aadesh Goyal (49:40.974) Everything is available to everybody and people will pursue their own journeys. Right. And what we saw was that within the first three years of launching this, the learning days per employee per year more than doubled. 90 % in-person training shifted to 90 % digitally delivered training in three years. Utkarsh Narang (49:42.645) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (49:58.476) wow. Aadesh Goyal (50:11.854) And by the time I retired from Tata communications a few months ago, we were just short of 10 days of learning per person per year. And when we launched it, it was 3.5. Utkarsh Narang (50:24.723) So all three times. Aadesh Goyal (50:26.382) Yes, almost three times and the budget that we had for learning remained more or less the same. So if you see the perhaps the total learning volume of in the company, all the training days put together, perhaps multiplied by nine or 10 times with the same cost. Because there is so much free VM content available today, you can leverage that. So that's one part of this high point demand. I think the second part is career development on demand. just imagine that, and when I say imagine, we already implemented it, that every employee, when they log in into what we used to at Tata communication is called Talent Central. Utkarsh Narang (50:52.703) Right. Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (51:11.029) Yeah. Aadesh Goyal (51:19.778) they would see four different. pathways options. One is if they want to move horizontally, vertically or diagonally and they pursue any of those options, it will open up the jobs that are open for which there's a match with them. So suppose you are in a particular job family, but you want to go into some adjacent job family or some other job family. That's a diagonal path at a higher level. Utkarsh Narang (51:33.749) Mm-hmm. Aadesh Goyal (51:52.62) You click on that, it'll show you say two jobs for which, you know, there's a match and you double-click on it. It'll show you the areas where there's a gap between what that role expects and what your experience is today. Okay, skills are today. And you double-click on those. It takes you to the learning and intervention that you can do to bridge those gaps. Utkarsh Narang (51:57.749) Hmm. Aadesh Goyal (52:21.218) and you can pursue it, start right then and there. Now, once this is available to people, people are going to use it in my right ways, right? And, you know, depending on what is their situation, what is their aspiration, how much energy they can put, they'll pursue it in different ways. Now, the more they pursue learning, the more the system is continuously watching this, right? Utkarsh Narang (52:24.437) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (52:31.731) Yeah. Aadesh Goyal (52:50.658) the gaps keep reducing. Now, if you see from the point of view of a manager, they are seeing the once compliment of this. Once compliment means the other side of it. Once compliment is a, sorry, I don't know why I use that from mathematics. They're seeing the perspective from the other side, which means the moment one person moves out from my group, either outside the company or into some other group. Utkarsh Narang (53:01.941) Mm. Aadesh Goyal (53:20.408) system knows that this person is moving, starts showing me people who can join that. Right? It could be internal person, it could be external person. And so you are now created things in motion that when you need things are available for you on demand. If you're a manager and you can pursue as an employee, whichever careers journey that you want to pursue without Utkarsh Narang (53:22.677) Hmm. Hmm. Aadesh Goyal (53:50.09) really taking anybody's permission. And it's a marketplace. If you are able to find a job and take a career journey that you want to pursue, you know, everything is available to you. And all of this is possible only because of AI, right? Because logically you could have implemented this 10 years ago. We tried it and we implemented it. It was rules based and it becomes, Utkarsh Narang (53:51.903) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (53:59.721) No one can stop you. Utkarsh Narang (54:06.837) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (54:16.757) Hmm. Aadesh Goyal (54:20.078) obsolete pretty fast, right? Because the actual events that are happening make what your knowledge based on which you made the rules obsolete pretty quickly. So what AI has enabled is to be able to continuously learn every moment, which is not possible for, you it was not possible 10 years ago. totally changes, right? And if you see Utkarsh Narang (54:38.003) Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (54:43.231) Yeah. Aadesh Goyal (54:47.914) Employee experience you have worked in that area directly or indirectly quite a bit Ultimately in employee experience is what there are five or ten things that are most important to employees, right? two of them I Mentioned right there. They will be in the top three For that you don't have to meet anybody talk to anybody. So the job of the HR is to create products Utkarsh Narang (54:58.453) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (55:03.379) Yeah. Yeah. Aadesh Goyal (55:15.074) that make a difference, that solve real problems and which means it will create business impact, will create employee impact and it create manager impact. That's what the job of HR is. Utkarsh Narang (55:21.973) Hmm. Utkarsh Narang (55:26.101) Hmm. Yeah. So succinctly put this, this final thought and then thank you for sharing all of that because it's, it's, it's really important to have this as an open conversation that the role of HR is to actually do that business impact. It's strategic. So build products that are going to serve the needs. And then ultimately the employee needs to be impacted. And if you can do all of that, then, then there's, there's infinite value, that you're building. Then why, why do we also hear a Aadesh Goyal (55:53.166) Happy. Happy. Utkarsh Narang (55:58.055) lot of fear of AI, Aadesh, what's your perspective on that? Aadesh Goyal (56:03.454) See the fear of anything big that is coming which is going to which has the potential to disrupt they will always be fair right and suppose somebody says that you know we are going to get an earthquake on this particular date right there is going to be fair or you know you are not old enough to perhaps remember it the Y2K issue became a big issue in the business and computing world. The dates were stored only as two digits and suddenly when four digits, it's going to become zero zero. Nobody knew what's going to happen. So there was a lot of fear, the amount of time and money people spent. So there was a lot of preparation done, but basically it didn't really crash anything per se. So there is always fear of something big. you which is new. I think fear is natural. And I think the only way to deal with fear is to understand. There are only two ways to deal with it, right? As far as I can think. One is understand more about it. So put your toe in the water. You know, otherwise you'll always be afraid of the sea. And then you put your foot there and then you... Utkarsh Narang (57:26.517) Hmm. Aadesh Goyal (57:30.764) and at least go till neep d and if you want to keep doing more and more right and stay there and the second is keep learning how you could use it to make your job better Aadesh Goyal (57:51.618) just do those things and you know the fear will reduce significantly. If you're going to stay on the sidelines and just be a receiver then you know depending on your personality type you might just be continuously worried about this or if you're not like if you're like a totally happy-go-lucky person then you may not be worried about it but then it could come and impact you. Utkarsh Narang (58:08.393) Hmm. Yeah. Utkarsh Narang (58:20.693) That's, that's good advice. So, so, and, and this applies not just to AI. think I'm just zooming it out for our listeners that when there is fear, either you expose yourself to that fear slowly, tip, tip your toes into the water and then start to experience it and then go knee deep and then learn about it. Because if you're standing on the sidelines, you'll always be worried. whether you're standing on the sidelines because of that worryness or slash anxiety, or you're standing on the sidelines just because you feel like This is not going to touch me or be your of happy-go-lucky. Beautiful. Thank you, Aadesh. As we now get into this state of wrapping up, I've filled about two A4 sheets with the notes, which is very helpful to me always to summarize this conversation. But as we get into this closure, if now I were to urge you to think about, Aadesh, that future self. Aadesh, from 18, 20, 30 years from now, since you shared your age, that's where the math was happening in my head. But that... 80 year old adesh and if that adesh were to come to you right now what advice would he have for you? Aadesh Goyal (59:27.278) So, you know, I would say keep doing what you're doing and do more of that. So today, and you know, this is really we all are a product of our experiences and what we chose to do with their experiences and maybe how we were wired, right? So it's really not to do with us per se, right? These are the journeys that happened. People came into your life, situations came into your life. And you know, I would say the karma theory So I for the last few years many many years, you know Obviously you had one big portion of your life was a full-time job but within that I was practicing self leadership and I was doing a lot of community service. I would say in the last 25 years maybe Depending on time 10 to 40 hours a month of community service. So that's what I'm doing today, right? So I am associated with many companies, really helping them with their product strategy and the growth strategy. These are tech companies, most of them are in the AI area and they are HR related. One of them is health related and spend time there. Number two, I continue to... Utkarsh Narang (01:00:47.253) Hmm. Hmm. Aadesh Goyal (01:00:56.354) teach our living courses and you know, I talk to you about this workshop that we do. And the other thing that I do is that anybody who wants to talk to me, I say I'm available, right? So I do these conversations with anybody who wants to do and very, very, you know, lucky to have amazing family, extended family and lots of friends. I have 4,000 contacts in my... my phone and I dare say that you know if you look at I'm in touch with almost all of them one way or the other so you know focus on you know health happiness service relationships more and more basically keep having good time Utkarsh Narang (01:01:48.405) Amazing, amazing. That's such a beautiful summary to this episode. So listeners, keep doing what you're doing and do more of it. And I think if you've listened to the whole episode, it beautifully summarizes the way Aadesh has put it, that focus on the resources, the happiness, the relationships and the health while you build whatever you're building for yourself, because there's joy in the moment. And then there's the long term also that you're constructing. I'm grateful, Aadesh, for you to be here and to share all your wisdom and thoughts and have this open conversation. I truly appreciate you for your time. Aadesh Goyal (01:02:26.998) And for me, just a great time that you and I spent together, the joy of just talking and discussing the subject itself is really a big one for me and Karsh. So thank you for inviting me. Utkarsh Narang (01:02:43.327) Thank you so much. Absolutely. And to our listeners, if you're listening to this on Spotify or Apple podcasts, do not forget to share the episode with people who might resonate with this. then if you're on YouTube, you know the drill. Subscribe button, like comment, and let's get this episode and this wisdom go viral. Till next time, this is Utkarsh signing off. Beautiful. Thank you. This is such a, such a heartwarming conversation. And thank you for all the sharing and the words that you dropped. Like I can get like 20 quotes out of this. You know, labels are limiting. And then if you don't go through the grind, how would you shine a dream? Some will come true and some will come through. So powerful. I love this. love this. Thank you. That's all that I have to say. And just to kind of wrap up, are three questions that I'll ask and what I'll do is I'll put my video off so that only you get recorded on the screen. So the three questions are, if you were to in one sentence, tell people, why should someone spend 60 minutes on this? Why should someone watch this episode? What would you say? Okay. So I'll go on mute and then you can just look at the camera and say, if you are so-and-so, should, whatever you, whatever comes to you. Go. Aadesh Goyal (01:03:37.879) Yeah. Sure. Aadesh Goyal (01:04:00.28) You know, if you have started listening to this podcast, the only reason for you to think of watching this completely is because it can totally disrupt your life in a positive way and give you some ideas for transforming your life. Utkarsh Narang (01:04:21.407) Beautiful. Question number two. In one line, if you were to describe yourself, Aadesh, who is Aadesh? Aadesh Goyal (01:04:29.898) I'm just a person who came onto the search and really having good time. Utkarsh Narang (01:04:38.111) Beautiful. And then finally, if you were to tell some of our future guests why they should come, like it's like almost like a testimonial. How is your experience of this conversation and why should they come on this podcast? Aadesh Goyal (01:04:53.88) You know, what I found amazing of this podcast is the preparation that Utkarsh had done and the deep questions that he asked, which really got me to think and really remake and reprocess your experiences and knowledge. So it gets you to think and learn and you might find things that you have not even thought about. Utkarsh Narang (01:05:24.425) Beautiful. This is amazing. Thank you, Aadesh. What I'm going to do is I'm going to...